GRIZ!!!!

@1 Maybe I should have yelled, "FIRDT!!!"

Congratulations. I'm so happy you got it this week so I don't have to read wahoo in all caps. Nothing personal. You're great. I'm just not a fan of overenthusiastic phonetically written comments, sorry.

Anyway, apologies for my tardiness here. I'm on Newport Beach. We just arrived via bicycle and jumped in the ocean. I suppose I should've checked Savage Love before the swim. No regrets though.

@1 & @2: WA-HOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!! Look at Griz, scoring FIRDT and SECNOD (ha ha, sorry, Jack. Have fun at Newport Beach). :)

@3: What, no comments about my new avatar, jack?

Oh, sorry. Love it!

Re: IMNY
The question 'do I ghost' is not 100% a dumb question in this special relationship-case, but it's still a very easy question.

The more substantive question is whether to send an explanation. My interpretation of this poll of four sex workers is that:

2 were clear they would want the explanation (Kalee & SoftSandalwood).
1 was clear she wouldn't (Maya).
1 /might/ have vaguely implied he did, but it wasn't clear what his answer was to the substantive damn question (Daddy).

Good on Dan for joining with Maya to suggest a gift.

My guess is that IMNY wants to provide an explanation (feelings want to be spoken).

@griz
I like the avatar. Good choice to make it female. It certainly is easy to tell whose it is! (It's ok that it hurts my eyes; maybe just because I have eyestrain right now from a long day.)

I frequently see sex workers for intercourse. Strippers, massage parlours, etc are sex workers that don't provide intercourse so I made a distinction. There have been several that I've cultivated a more intense service from, unprotected sex. When I feel it's time to move on I usually say goodbye. Other sex pros I just move on because it's just a transaction. She might miss the regularity of the income but there shouldn't be any thing more than that. The LW shouldn't feel bad for ghosting it's no big deal.

@5~ Great Avatar, Griz! I wish every commenter would take the time to get one, it’s so much easier to keep track of my favorites whose thoughts I don’t want to miss.

HOPE~ Lifelong monogamy is possible, and unlike Dan, I don’t believe it’s rare. Maybe I’ve just been hanging with the right crowd (and, yes, I’m sure most people wouldn’t tell me about it if it happened and they worked through it) but very, very few people I know have broken up over infidelity. Incompatibility, yes. Drinking/drugs, yes. Mismatched libidos/expectations, yes. Maybe my small town upbringing and generally optimistic view of humanity (getting a LOT HARDER to maintain that given the last three years) have me hoping for the best in people. I guess the main thing I would say is that your ability to communicate honestly with your partner(s) is a good (but not perfect) barometer of any relationship’s chance to endure, and by extension, remain monogamous if that’s what you ALL expect/desire.

IMNY~ Think of this like stopping doing business with your barber/hairdresser that you have been patronizing for years. Now think of what it would be like if you were fucking your barber/hairdresser every time you got a trim. Hmmmm... I think I’ve just stumbled on a great new business model! Point is, treat them like the human beings they are, say “Thanks For All The Fish!” and leave a nice tip. I don’t think most sex workers expect to be waxing your porpoise for the rest of your lives, they know it will most likely end sooner rather than later, but showing appreciation for services rendered is always classy.

I think Mr Savage inflates relationships he hopes will survive infidelity into relationships that should survive infidelity; indeed I'm not sure the word "should" ought to apply. I can agree that, if societal messaging were more on the line that affairs are survivable, more affairs would be survived. But not surviving a survivable-looking affair manifests lack of wherewithal.

It seems a major stretch to turn doing something one's partner might regard as cheating into failing at monogamy. Is one supposed to guess unspoken rules? I always considered monogamy more a personal standard than a relationship one and accordingly wouldn't belittle those who'd been cheated upon. Meeting one's own standard of conduct seems a sufficient source of satisfaction in oneself.

[And your partner is going to find other people attractive—and not in twenty years. Today, right now, your partner is going to lay eyes on someone else they find attractive, HOPE, just as you will probably lay eyes—but only eyes—on someone else you find attractive. Making a monogamous commitment doesn’t mean you don’t wanna fuck other people, it means you will refrain from fucking other people.]

It might just be differences over terminology, but for me a commitment meant that I genuinely didn't want to. And I've always distinguished between being able to acknowledge people's being objectively or even if-I-were-free attractive and actually being moved by such a person in a way I'd term finding someone attractive. But it really does seem to be mainly terminology.
xxx

Michael Brooks, the leftist I've dubbed the father of Ironic Ironic Homophobia, has died at age 37. I have no desire to run around singing Ding Dong the Witch is Dead (shades of Mrs Thatcher) and can sympathize for those who will feel a great loss, but I am at the moment considerably disconcerted by how many of his admirers absolutely adore and are praising him specifically for his IIH.

It’s an interesting question, how much can you prepare with your partner for the possibility one of you has an affair in the future. Dan suggests committing to each other to at least consider working it out if it happens. But they are also committing to not cheating, and the consider-working-it-out commitment will probably feel very hollow to the cheated on partner if it ever comes to that.

What almost every person will say in a conversation like this is “oh baby, I would NEVER do that to you”. And almost every person will mean it too, in that moment, even if they fail to live up to it later. It’s hard to think realistically about these things when your relationship is healthy.

One concrete thing you can tell your partner is whether you would want them to tell you if they ever do cheat. But you have to be aware that if your partner decides to have an ongoing affair, it is very unlikely they will ever tell you about it. You are a little more likely to hear about the less important things... a guilt-inducing flirtation, or possibly an instantly regretted one-night-stand like Dan mentioned. And you should think carefully about whether you really would want to know about them. (Which you still probably won’t.)

I think most of the preparation needs to be with yourself rather than with your partner. You should acknowledge to yourself that this wonderful person you love is actually flawed, and capable of cheating on you. And then try to love and trust them anyway.

Although, if they do end up cheating, that preparation doesn’t help either, does it. It’s like how acknowledging to yourself that your partner might die young doesn’t prepare you for what it will be like if they do.

Sorry, I have no good answers here.

@6 jack chandelier, @7 curious2, and @9 DonnyKlicious: Thanks, guys. I owe a lot to my tech friend, Laron for helping me upload the avatar image and add it to my current Stranger account. Indeed, it's quite fitting in keeping with the Monkees and psychedelic '60's rock themes.
So it's visually official: I'm quirky, goofy, and nutty Auntie Grizelda.......:)

Jack might miss out on his ribbon this week, hey Grizelda? Hey Jack, just scroll on by, because while the world is mad, a little frivolous fun and exuberance is welcome here.
Oh Grizelda, , three lucky wins for you with your striking new Avatar!!!! I send you the special gold thread ribbons.

Griz @1! Congratulations to you and your shiny new avatar on the FIRDT honours! Well deserved!

I agree with Dan that this is something people should talk about. For one thing, I do think that attraction to someone else is inevitable, but I don't agree that acting on that attraction is inevitable. Attraction is not a betrayal, it just makes someone human. If you can't handle being with a human, get a dog. I'm not sure (were I monogamous) my conversation would go the same way as Dan's -- I think most monogamous people's conversation would open with the idea that cheating is a dealbreaker and that we expect each other to not do it. Because, speaking from experience, saying "if you cheated I'd be heartbroken but I'd forgive you" can be internalised and come back years later in the form of a little devil on one's shoulder saying "Do it, s/he said s/he'd forgive you!" Also, I 100% would not put an instantly regretted one-night stand while out of town in the same category (forgivable) as a years-long affair (absolutely not forgivable -- the betrayal being opening the relationship secretly and unilaterally, and with a higher risk of ignoring safer sex). So Dan and I are very different, and indeed it might help to have this conversation.

But again, I can't see how a conversation like that would precede a monogamous relationship, only a relationship with certain predetermined and pre-agreed loopholes. If you don't want any loopholes, stick to your guns and hold out for someone who's just as committed to monogamy as you are. Otherwise you're negotiating monogamishamy, which is fine for many and possibly more realistic to expect over the long haul, but which does not sound like what someone like HOPE hopes for. HOPE, yes, it does make sense to prepare yourself for the possibility that your partner may cheat, because so many do. It does not make sense to grant them tacit permission. (Though it might make sense to state that while cheating is wrong, immediate honesty would be a mitigating circumstance -- if one's partner does slip up, the last thing you want is for them to hide it from you.) Stick to your principles and if cheating happens anyway, look at all of the circumstances rather than stick to a predecided course of action, ie, if they cheat I'll leave no matter what.

IMNY, this is a business relationship. Would you ghost your lawyer or your accountant? Send her a note. (Also, if your wife doesn't know about this, you're a CPOS. Someone had to say it.)

OCG, thanks for sharing your experience! Hope VIRGIN is inspired.

Donny @9, good point that most of the world's friends groups are probably very dissimilar to Dan's. According to a New York Times survey, "national surveys indicate that 15 percent of married women and 25 percent of married men have had extramarital affairs. The incidence is about 20 percent higher when emotional and sexual relationships without intercourse are included." HOPE has good reason for hope.
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/01/22/well/marriage-cheating-infidelity.html

The figure is high enough that she should mentally prepare for the possibility, but low enough that she needn't resign herself to an expectation of monogamishamy at most.

Waxing one's porpoise is a great euphemism!

Venn @10, good point that couples should (and I think usually do) discuss what would constitute cheating for them. While most would agree that sex would cross that line, many people would count lesser infractions as cheating, and it's important that their partners know that. My view was always, "Don't do X, but if you do do X and immediately confess, you'll be forgiven." But then again I turned out to prefer the sort of relationship where honesty is expected and exclusivity is not, so my thoughts may not apply.

I also agree that there is a difference between "finding someone attractive" and "being attracted to someone." Whether one has the visual ability to determine attractiveness does not change depending on whether one is in a relationship. Whether one feels an attraction, an actual pull, towards others often does. If one is adamantly pro-monogamy, one might want to investigate which group their partner is in. However, I think that the "seven year itch phenomenon" means that for a lot of people, being part of the second group is temporary. For the first handful of years, one might not feel attraction to anyone else. But as one's partner gets more familiar and comfortable, those desires come back. It's easy to forsake others if one doesn't want others; does one have the integrity to forsake others one does want? One might not know that about oneself, let alone one's partner, so indeed one should prepare for this possibility -- both that you may find yourself attracted in future, and that your partner may.

Joe @12, I disagree, that was a very good post. There are no answers because it's so specific to the individual.

HOPE, you need to separate those two ideas. Dan is right, attraction goes on all the time for other people.
Cheating is a very different issue.
My suggestion is, that as part of perhaps a private wedding ceremony, the participants commit to talking before acting on a sexual attraction. Acknowledge that over time, houses, dishes and babies can dampen the flame a little, and temptation will probably occur, and perhaps strongly.
Commit not to lie to each other.
Yes, there is cheating by degrees and sometimes it is appropriate, given the circumstances. Depends on the conditions. To me, them coming clean before getting caught out, gives room for forgiveness.
I think of monogamy as a closed circuit, and it suits many people to keep it that way. Cheating is breaking up that circuit, without one member knowing. It’s not nothing.

Correcting myself @16 before somebody else does: The seven-year itch phenomenon doesn't refer to becoming attracted to other people, it refers to losing attraction for your spouse. Not being attracted to others at first, but then regaining that ability a few years in, is a function of New Relationship Energy wearing off, rather than whatever it is that causes some people to no longer fancy someone after seven or so years. (Something I can't speak to because I've never experienced it, on either side.)

joeburner @12, I agree that cheating is not something you can realistically prepare for years in advance. Sure, it's good to have this conversation with your partner early on for the sake of open communication and such, but will it still be relevant years down the line, when one or both of you may be cheating, thinking about cheating, or dealing with the emotional fallout of cheating? Your bodies will not be the same, your feelings will not be the same, your circumstances will not be the same. Probably better to treat monogamy as something you are both committing to now, but remain open to discussing again in the future. Easier said than done though.

I also agree that "preparation" mostly needs to be with yourself. If the mere thought of your partner cheating or even being attracted to someone else (!) is causing you to break out in hives, you may want to hash it out with a therapist. Is it the idea of your partner being intimate with someone else that's so heartbreaking, the fear of abandonment, or the thought of being lied to and made a fool of? Each of those answers would entail a different course of action. Cheating would still hurt like a freight train, but you'd be better equipped to deal with it if you do some of the unpacking and soul-searching beforehand. Another part of this "preparation" could just be talking honestly with your partner about your relationship histories. What's their track record with monogamy and/or cheating, and what's yours? Don't get blindsided by NRE, and be honest with yourself and each other about the commitment you're taking on.

I've been married 27 years and have remained monogamous. This was not difficult. I have too much going on in my life, too many projects that interest me and keep me busy, not to mention the kids and our family life to have the time or inclination. It's highly doubtful my wife has ever cheated either. More than doubtful. Practically impossible.

I'm not against non-monogamy. In fact, I think it makes a certain amount of sense. At least the sex part. I'd be a lot less comfortable if my wife developed an emotional connection with someone else. But if she had cheated on me, and her cheating had no effect on my life (especially if I never found out), then I don't see the problem.

Now, I'm not the type women randomly start hitting on. Or if they do, I'm usually pretty oblivious to it. And certainly not looking for it. I imagine if the circumstances were right, I would go for it. But the thought of how crushed my wife would feel if she ever found out -- and I know she'd be crushed -- would most likely keep me from going through with it.

Lots of interesting comments.
BiDanFan, good point in @15 about the little devil that can appear after one of these conversations. I agree it could have an effect like that. The thing about that devil though, is that I think he will appear in any case and whisper appealing rationalizations— if it’s not this rationalization, then it will likely be another one.

LM, excellent ideas about unpacking feelings of dread/hives and discussing relationship histories.

Lava, I think a lot of people feel like you do, and that sounds like a very reasonable conversation to have too.

Marty, interesting perspective. Just like society doesn’t often hear about couples who recover from infidelity, this space doesn’t often hear from people who find monogamy easy. And it’s a good point about not knowing for sure how you would react to temptation. One thing that drives me nuts is when person X feels/acts superior to person Y because person Y did bad thing Z... when person X has never been in a situation where thing Z was any sort of realistic temptation.

@10 venn
"I think Mr Savage inflates relationships he hopes will survive infidelity into relationships that should survive infidelity"

I've sorta thought the same thing when the couple in the letter is married. I think Mr. Savage infers children even when none are mentioned. This seems to me a way Mr. Savage is rather traditional.

@15 BDF
"I can't see how a conversation like that would precede a monogamous relationship"

Agreed, good point. In this context I think I see my love of Dan's advice as a suggestion that people think outside the monogamy envelope. I think BDF is right that perhaps the majority won't, but I still think it's great advice to prompt them to not just accept the default without thinking.

The way correspondent 1 started the letter - "Is it terrible?" -- led me to believe they were expecting a lambasting from Dan and this crowd. It must be a relief for them to have received such a tolerant, open-minded, constructive series of comments, ones many of us would be well-advised to follow.

Congrats on the FIRDT and SECNOD, Griz @1 @2, and on the shiny new avatar. It looks like the avatar of a person that would drive a VW Beetle. Beep beep.

I agree wholeheartedly with Donny @9, wishing that every commenter would take the time to get one (curious2 can help with that). But I don't necessarily agree with Donny @9 that Dan believes lifelong monogamy is rare.

The estimates are out there: cheating is somewhere between common and rampant. But Dan's point was that lots of people who think they're in monogamous relationships, in fact, are not.

Indeed, if someone is in a monogamous relationship, and cheats once, are they no longer in a monogamous relationship?

Personally, I'd advise HOPE not to have a conversation about what to do in the case of infidelity, but rather to have one about 'fessing up when one is attracted to someone else and wants to fuck them. Get monogamishy on the table early.

Regarding IMNY, I think it's important that he described the woman as an escort, rather than a sex worker. It's clear that he has a relationship with her outside of the bedroom, which led to him catching feelings. Ghosting is not a respectful option.

As to whether or not he should 'fess up, I agree with curious @7: feelings want to be spoken.

But more than that, feelings and situations can change. And speaking can create possibilities.

IMNY doesn't delve into the circumstances of his relationship, but if he has a hall pass to "date" and fuck, perhaps he can talk through the negative effect on the marriage, and upgrade to dating and fucking with feelings.

If the marriage is sexless, it's little wonder that three years of bi-monthly amazing sex (72 times!) has had a negative effect. Cutting her off is going to be jarring, and won't switch off his feelings.

Of course, this is advice IMNY didn't ask for. He definitely should not ghost her.

@24 fubar
"But more than that, feelings and situations can change. And speaking can create possibilities."

I was thinking precisely that, I only kept myself from saying so.

griz's avatar is the most-noticeable avatar ever.
(Though I think it would be possible to design one with slightly more glaringly contrasting day-glow colors. Not a complaint, I love psychedelics.)

I think Dan hit it out of the park for l-dub 1. Good job. Honest without being polemical about open relationships. Do your best. Expect your partner to do their best. Don't blow up your lives over a misstep, should it happen.

Re HOPE
after marrying the first woman who would have sex with me,..I slowly began to realize that the odds of the two of us staying together forver with no infidelity was not realistic. We attended a seminar at a jaycees weekend in the 70's where this was the topic:..."surviving the affair". Miss N. was upset with me when we attended the class but the anger that she had placed on me was transferred to the speaker so it took the pressure off me. e discussed it afterwards and while she was unconvinced she did take a more open view of the possibilties after that.

Firdt off, congratulations, auntie griz, not only on the gorgeous new avatar, but on overcoming your technophobia enough to create it and put it up here, even if you had some help.

Secnodly, It's never polite to ghost, and particularly durning a pandemic, to just disappear without a trace is unkind--people will worry. IMNY has been seeing this woman twice a month for three years--he owes her a "thanks, but I'm stopping" message, whether he chooses to tell her the reason or not.

Thridyl, so many people here have given good responses to HOPE, in addition to Dan's.
I agree that no matter how prepared you might think you are for something years before it may happen, you don't really know how you'll react if/when it actually happens. I also agree that thinking about the eventual possibility of a partner being unfaithful (assuming a monogamous commitment is made) is a good idea. Everyone has a different bar of acceptable behavior in a partner, ranging from thinking that watching and wanking to porn is an act of infidelity to only being upset by an affair in which both participants consider themselves to be in love.

We don't really know how we'll react 20 years into a marriage when we're still dating or on our honeymoon: over time, we become exposed to different ideas and different ways of being, so that what seemed impossible at 22 might be no big deal at 52. I think watching, listening to, or reading Esther Perel should be mandatory for engaged couples or couples considering moving in together or otherwise formalizing relationships. Because the reality is that cheating happens. And if it doesn't happen /to/ someone, that same person, who could never have imagined themselves cheating someday, might find themself cheating or seriously contemplating it at some point.

joeburner2, Lost Margarita, and MartyVega, thank you for your input. gueralinda, thank you for yours. I really hope HOPE reads the comments. I also wish Dan would go back to a Friday wrap-up so that lws who don't read the comments have a chance to read more valuable ("more" as in additive to Dan's, not "more" as in the comments are better than Dan's, though sometimes they are) advice/perspectives.

I also wish that Dan would return to running a SLLOTD, but at least I no longer worry that the reason for its absence means that Dan has Covid.

HOPE--I've been in a monogamous relationship for 18 years now (so still two years to go to really answer your question!). We were even both virgins when we found the "every relationship ends until one doesn't" relationship. Our sex life has had ebbs and flows--Dan's constant reminder that anything with the last name "sex" counts really helped--but our "mediocre" sex has always been satisfying and the good sex is still mind altering. I started listening to Dan's podcast and reading his column during a time period when I also found out that both my brother-in-law and my father-in-law had affairs (after long relationships). We'd only been married for a couple of years and I was in my early thirties and it was terrifying to feel like I might have committed my youth only to be left (SIL) or even worse, financially stuck (MIL). In many ways, listening to Dan really helped me get through that period. I got my husband to listen to the podcast and we did discuss infidelity. We both agreed that silently living with guilt for the rest of our lives is the only just "punishment" for a one off affair (i.e. don't tell) and that we would discuss opening our relationship if we got to a point where that seemed necessary. So I agree that discussing hypothetical infidelity was really helpful and allowed us to have both boundaries (there are still things I would leave him for, obviously) and also other options. Listening to Dan also gave us a much richer vocabulary to discuss our sex life; we'd been pretty open before and we're mostly sexually compatible, but I think more actively and specifically talking about sex and our desires has really helped. I think a big help has been that we've always been emotionally intimate and physically affectionate with each other, even during periods where stress/life/etc. has caused our sex life to wane. If sex was the only way we had to get intimacy and touch, I think we'd have been much more likely to cheat. I think we have both actively and passively made choices to prioritize our relationship and as a consequence have limited our exposure to possible other partners. I also think we are both closer to naturally monogamous on the spectrum (and I am probably a little demi-sexual). So yeah, I think monogamy is possible if it is both actually what both of your want (not feel like your should want) and if you do the work to keep your relationship in a state where it rounds up to being enough. Also, if monogamy is really what you want, remember that monogamy (like any life-long relationship) is a long game. You need to create a sexually adventurous life instead of a sexual adventure. You can start talking about something now and see the results in five years. Keep doing the work in the low periods and you'll get paid off in the high periods. But don't slack off just because things seem to be going good. Keep the lines of communication and intimacy open. And remember there is no shame in being ethically non-monogamous. Monogamy and non-monogamy should both be choices that people make together because it is what really, truly makes them happy!

Great comment, Zoftig 32! Also @ 29, If Dan “secretly” thinks anything about classical monogamy he probably thinks it totally unworkable. Period. But because he realizes he is still pushing against the tide in mainstream culture he tries to shade his advice in such a way that at least encourages people to think seriously about the problems with the construct before diving in. This is very much to his credit. If Dan has any secret feeling about we monogamists, it is less likely to be jealously and more likely to be pity. A gentle, compassionate type of pity. The kind Dr. Chumley dreamed about receiving under that tree in Akron while listening to the refrain: “Poor dear. Poor, poor dear.”

@29 our sad toxic little RAINDROP

Oh stop it curious. He’s no more toxic than you can get.
LW2, hope you sort out your heart. Sex Workers thank you for your advice.
LW3, lovely story.

Another thing people embarking on monogamy might want to think or talk about is how to deal with and avoid temptations. You don’t have to go full Mike Pence, but you might want to reconsider sleeping over at your ex’s.

Also, how do you both feel about “emotional affairs”? At what point, if any, does a non-sexual relationship become inappropriate? And what is your plan for maintaining those boundaries? Hopefully the two of you you can negotiate compatible answers.

Lava @35, he is way more toxic than anyone else on this forum, he's a sanctimonious troll who's best ignored.

I do ignore him Fan, usually by scrolling past. Just noticed lately curious going after people and saw his comment as I was going to write. Isolation and fear is making everyone jumpy.

Are making everyone jumpy. See. Can’t even get simple words together. Though that could be age.

I'm with MartyVega on this - I don't find monogamy challenging and I don't think my husband does either (athough I really shouldn't speak for him). It's been 26 years and I've never been tempted to test any boundaries emotionally or physically.
I find devoting myself to one person intensely erotic, possibly because it's returned in kind by someone who seems to adore me. If it wasn't, I might be looking around!
A lot of what Zoftig says chimes with me.

I was watching a show on our multicultural channel about cross cultural marriages in Australia.
This one couple, the bride was a Gypsy. A well off family, community of Gypsies, didn’t catch where they lived.
After the marriage night, the bed sheets were examined for blood, and then a celebration was had because she was a virgin. The father spoke to camera about how important it was, culturally, that his daughter was a virgin at marriage.

Is it me, or do the letters these days seem to be largely about NOT having sex?

The government of British Columbia (a Canadian Province) advises people to "choose sexual positions that limit face-to-face contact" [butt sex and doggy style?], and "use barriers, like walls (e.g., glory holes)."

gloryholes is trending on Twitter in Canada as people digest this advice.

So proud to be Canadian.

@44: Envious, fubar.

Go Canada! Though what about those without a cock, GloryHolettes for us?

@gueralinda: "I would hope that most people know themselves well enough, by the time they are seriously thinking of getting married, to know if lifelong monogamy is a realistic proposal for them or not."

I'm not sure I agree (the future is hard to see), but along those lines I would say that anyone who has already cheated in a previous long-term relationship should admit that before getting married. You can still say "I can't imagine cheating on you," but you shouldn't say "I'm just not the kind of person who would ever cheat."

I had great sex today, me and my mind. I’m not sure why I’m not attracted to other pussy, because I love mine, the bush in place. Best before siesta.

Maybe it helps that I was already in my early 30s when I met and married my wife (she was late 20s) and we both had had plenty of sexual experiences, with plenty of partners. I enjoyed my single period immensely, had several longish relationships as well (never cheated during those either). In other words, I have no regrets.
Monogamy would appear much differently had I married the first person I'd had sex with.

Lava @38, true, Traffic Spiral is usually pretty evenhanded and last week she went off on Griz. Stress getting to us all. Still though, I don't think rebuking a troll is as bad as being a troll, particularly when you compare the sum total of the value of Curious's comments to the sum total of Raindrop's.

Slomo @43, how are this week's letters about not having sex? Letter number one regards a lifetime of sex with one person, letters two and three feature long-term sexual relationships with sex workers. Sex everywhere. What they aren't about is dating, which is not surprising since dating breaks multiple rules of the lockdown, unless you're chastely sitting in a park six feet apart. That said, that sounds like more fun than having sex that doesn't involve kissing or facing each other, Fubar @44... I would rather face someone across a video screen than not at all.

Lava @46, we do the sucking, doesn't that sound like a great deal for us? I suppose if one found a partner with a long enough tongue, glory holes might work for those with pussies.

EricaP @47, I don't think being able to know oneself well enough to determine whether "lifelong monogamy is a realistic proposal for them" and knowing that one will NEVER cheat are the same thing. Exceptional circumstances arise. Take for instance the frequent hypothetical where two monogamously inclined people marry, then 30 years down the road one of them becomes incapacitated and cannot have sex anymore but, being so monogamously inclined, won't grant a hall pass to the other partner. Lifelong monogamy may have been plenty realistic if this particular, highly unlikely, circumstance had not happened. Or a different unforeseen circumstance, such as one partner getting a job that requires an extended absence, or even being incarcerated. I think one can know oneself well enough to determine that, absent exceptional circumstances, one would not be inclined to cheat. And that's all one can really commit to. "Realistic" is only "realistic" given the known facts. One could certainly know oneself well enough to know how much attraction one experiences when one is in a committed relationship, and how easy it is to ignore that attraction. One could know that in a past relationship, one cheated, or one's partner cheated, and that felt so terrible that one is unlikely to ever cause that kind of pain to someone they love. The future is hard to see, but the past is a reasonable predictor.

Curious @22, I don't think Dan's bias towards relationships surviving infidelity indicates that he presumes children or is traditional, but that he personally feels exclusivity is not an essential ingredient for a healthy long-term relationship. And that therefore, breaches of exclusivity should not doom an otherwise good relationship. What he misses is that breaches of exclusivity in a relationship where both people agreed to be exclusive aren't just about whose genitals went where, they're about broken trust. No, relationships need not be strictly monogamous, but partners need strictly stick to whatever agreements and commitments they have made. If that's forsaking all others, not forsaking all others is indeed a betrayal, and it's simplistic to say the betrayed partner should just get over it.

fubar @44

This sounds remarkably similar to the sex advice supposedly published by NYC government more than a month ago:

https://www.cracked.com/article_27972_nycs-government-officially-endorsed-glory-holes.html

http://web.archive.org/web/20200612005234/https://www1.nyc.gov/assets/doh/downloads/pdf/imm/covid-sex-guidance.pdf

Fake news?

@50 BDF
"chastely sitting in a park six feet apart. That said, that sounds like more fun than having sex that doesn't involve kissing or facing each other"

A couple weeks back when fubar mentioned the no-kissing recommendation of some agency IIRC I made some vague bunny suit comment because I didn't want to harsh anyone's buzz. More power to anyone who feels differently. But I'm just not that eager to have sex without kissing, let alone to have a contractor install a gloryhole in my apartment.

Incidentally, gloryhole porn features PIV, despite how unrealistically ergonomic it is for the woman.

@51 BDF
"I don't think Dan's bias towards relationships surviving infidelity indicates that he presumes children or is traditional"

Ooops, neither do I, my comment was almost entirely out of context to venn's quoted sentence, sorry!

I tried to signal that by saying "I've sorta thought", but that was lamely inadequate.

The only part of venn's comment that elicited my comment was the part about Dan wanting relationships (to which I added 'marriages') to survive. I simply wanted to note out of all context I admit that I've noted a consistent thread of Dan wanting marriages to survive when he wouldn't want a non-marriage to, which I infer either means he is presuming children (I've imagine because unlike me he's a person who wanted them), or (I've imagined perhaps because his is currently married) regards marriage in a way that I do not (all things being equal, whether or not a couple has a marriage certificate isn't a factor in whether I think they should remain together).

I did eventually get married but that certificate never meant anything to me that our unwritten promises didn't already mean.

@53 p.s.
It has also occurred to me that it's relatively easy for me to reject societal norms and conventions. Perhaps I wouldn't if I were a gay man so society had beat me to it by rejecting me.

Curious @53, I see what you're saying now. It does seem traditional to think that once one has publicly and legally made a vow, one is more obligated to stick to it than if those vows were informal. Or it could just be the practical consideration that a divorce is a lot more complex and stressful than a breakup (which is, in most cases, true). If it's the vows thing, one might counter-argue that a "for better or for worse" vow is no more or less binding than a "forsaking all others" vow; that the breaking of the latter invalidates the former. I totally take your point (and agree) that promises made in a public ceremony are not necessarily stronger than those made without one. That is an interesting thing to ponder: I don't think Dan would be alone in thinking it's worse to cheat on a spouse than on a boyfriend/girlfriend/enbyfriend. Is that because of the vow to forsake, or is it because you're putting your other half in the ugly position of having to work through it or go through a divorce? Hmm.

Also, very little porn appears ergonomic for women. ;)

Curious @54, I don't know -- I've heard gay people say that it's much easier for them to reject everything society expected of them because from puberty they knew they could never follow the rules even if they wanted to.

I also find myself, a non-monogamous person, in the seemingly ironic position of staunchly defending expectations of monogamy. I guess that is because I know that if you don't want to be monogamous, in the 21st Century, you don't have to. There are now socially acceptable alternatives for those who want variety, so there's no excuse for cheating.

@55 BDF
Oh yeah, I was just thinking about the ""forsaking all others" vow". I think I forgot about the vow of permanence (""for better or for worse"") because, honestly, that seems crazy to me in practice (in the real world where people change). I avoided that marriage for years; I wish I were ready to have chosen the one alternative I got which was to break up then.

I never thought about the (to me irritating) red tape of divorce being added incentive to hold to "forsaking all others".

@56 BDF
"I've heard gay people say that it's much easier for them to reject everything society expected of them because from puberty they knew they could never follow the rules even if they wanted to."

True, that is what I hear more often too. And I'm sure there's many ways it's true of Dan too.

I'm in complete agreement WRT paragraph two. Promises one is free to not make are important promises.

To toot my own relationship's horn for a moment--one thing my partner and I did when we got together was agree that every year on our anniversary we would have a long discussion about our relationship, with option to renegotiate any implicit agreements. Both of us think a lot about how things are going in the few weeks leading up to the anniversary and then we have the conversations.

This does two things. First, as many commenters have pointed out, people change over time. Even if you do manage to have a conversation about infidelity at the start of your relationship, lots of the factors that go into your feelings will shift and morph as the relationship grows, and it's helpful to have the chance to update your views. Second, if you are in the habit of having that type of (potentially difficult) conversation every year, it's less scary to have it when something really does need addressing. (This applies equally well to non-sex issues, too.)

In our case, for instance, the yearly conversations allowed us to decide to open our marriage in a period after the crazy new relationship energy had worn off, but before either of us was really jonesing to fuck anyone else. And I think that made that transition much easier than if we had waited until there was already a specific person on the horizon that one of us wanted to fuck.

I am blown away by Griz's avatar. Let's get that out there first.

HOPE's hope is that she (I'm going to guess 'she' here, just ... guess) will find a loving monogamous relationship that lasts twenty years. Or that the monogamous relationship she's in now lasts twenty years plus. And I hope it does, too. My hope, in any new primary relationship, would be for it to be longlasting and lovingly nonmonogamous: loving and strong enough for us to negotiate and accommodate any new sex partner either of us might have. Can her hope acknowledge my hope? I found her letter a bit grating in not seeming to be able to at all.

@58: Toot away, ciods! Your approach sounds great--and your relationship, enviable.
It's been heartening to hear from the happily monogamous couples on this thread, too.

Cheers to all those who do relationships right--whatever "right" is for the couple, and the individuals in it, too.

Also, cheers to those like BiDanFan, who realized what she really needs and has made it work for herself, but who doesn't find it necessary to denigrate monogamy or those who choose it.

You are all inspiring.

@20. Marty. I agree with you that monogamy is not always necessary difficult. I also thought that the outlines of Dan's answer--that monogamy was hard and cheating common; but that the almost inevitable infidelities didn't need to sink a presumptively monogamous relationship (or marriage)--came from a peculiar place. The place would have been that of a naturally nonmonogamous gay man signed up to, or bending his head around, the heteronorm of monogamy. Surely the answer could just have been to say that two thirds (it would seem) of marriages are faithful--and some may even be happily so.

If a relationship is going to be nonmonogamous, why not just negotiate monogamishamy (?) from the outset?

‘We don’t follow the heteronormative paradigm,’ is what a gay friend said to me, years ago.

People want what they want. While reading children, I don’t think I could have dealt with having an open relationship.
Why do people cheat? I do understand how the pressures, repetitiveness etc of family life with children, can get overwhelming. If the couple can’t talk straight to each other, have fallen into role behaviour and things feel stuck and forced, having an affair can cut thru that. It’s like giving a partner the finger, it’s an aggressive move.

Rearing children. And I do edit. Maybe I should wait for first coffee of the morning to hit the brain.

When there are no children involved, and one of the couple cheats, that is in a class of it’s own. Like the letter where it was five years of cheating, and his partner asking us is there a way round such a lie.
If not happy with the structure, monogamy, then sit down and talk. Take the risk of losing. To me that guy should have been gone next day. Five years.

Maybe Dan is right, in that cheating, is a response to conditions which leave people crowded by each other. I lived apart from my husband, though a street away, so kids could go between. He seemed to find enough to fight about without ones over who does the dishes. And I couldnt sleep with someone every night, and deal with the demands of children. Space can be sorely lacking in nuclear families, with children, for many years.

@14 LavaGirl: Many humble thanks! I accept along with sharing the avatar honors with Laron for helping me download and crop my avatar image. :)
@15 BiDanFan: Many equally humble thanks! With many thanks, too, to my tech friend, Laron--watch out all those in cyberspace--Griz is visual! :)
@24 fubar: Many thanks--big hugs, positrons, and VW beeps! Griz is indeed, officially among the avatared. :)
@27 curious2: We can all thank my tech friend, Laron for finding a suitably psychedelic image for my screen name. I hope you're not put off---Laron is local, and I know you have offered tech assistance over eight months. I have finally gotten off my butt and acted on it. So kudos to you, too! :)
@30 sb53: So good to hear from you! :)
@31 nocutename: It's official: thanks to my gifted tech friend, Laron and the Monkees I am indeed, Your Auntie Grizelda.:)
@44 fubar: I'm with nocutename--envious of your situation in British Columbia, Canada. :) You good folks must be sighing with relief that none of us from the States (at least nobody on the Washington State Ferries to Sydney, B.C. from Anacortes, WA, U.S.A. or anyone driving northbound on I-5 can come through the Peace Arch. I wonder how many among the 8+ billion humans are regarding us as stupid Americans. Especially with no real President.
@ 59 Harriet_by_the_Bulrushes: Thank you. I owe a major shout out to my tech friend, Laron, for not only helping me upload the image for my avatar, but finding it in the first place. I think Peter Tork, Davy Jones, Micky Dolenz and Michael Nesmith would be proud. :)

Who's up for this week's Lucky @69 Award? Tick...tick...tick...

.....and this week's Lucky @69 winner IS!!!............

GOTCHA!

Curious @57, have you been divorced? Divorce seems to me a severe punishment for breaking marriage vows, and a hefty incentive to work things out. This is why being married is a bigger commitment than not, regardless of the intentions of the parties -- it's much harder to get out of.

Ciods @58, that sounds like a great system! You're right that most couples don't talk about the relationship until there is some problem that needs talking about, and without practice, few of them have the right skills.

Harriet @59, your turn to add an avatar? Lava?
What could you find "grating" about HOPE's letter? It wasn't about you. As a non-monogamous person I find nothing offensive about the fact that some people are monogamous. Get over it! :)

Thanks, Nocute @60! Non-monogamy isn't for everyone. My hope (see what I did there) is that people can find partners who meet their needs, no matter what those needs may be.

Lava @62, but a lot of gay people -do- follow parts of the heteronormative paradigm. Look, for instance, at the big push for gay couples to have the same rights as straight ones regarding marriage and adoption. If all gay people rejected the heteronormative paradigm, they'd reject its most obvious embodiments -- the institution of marriage and children. Who's more heteronormative: Dan with his huzzzzben and son, or me living solo and child-free with multiple partners of varying genders?

Lava @63, I think you've hit the nail on the head. Why do people cheat? Because they are bad at communicating. This is why I put the one-night stand in a different category than an affair. A one-night stand requires only giving into one's hormones. An affair requires premeditation, intentionally deceiving one's partner for an ongoing period, sneaking around behind their back, lying to their face. Instead of talking to them about where their relationship is lacking or just asking to open the marriage. I don't understand how anyone could do that and look themself in the mirror. I certainly would be incapable of sustaining such dishonesty and would feel compelled to confess, break it off or both.

Oddly, thinking about Dan's three examples, I would consider the affair LESS forgivable than any one-night stand, even my sister on our wedding night. At least that could be chalked up to alcohol and possibly mistaken identity, depending on how closely one resembles one's sister, and be a hilarious story!

BDF @69: Congrats on scoring the sixty nine this week!

BDF @70: "mistaken identity, depending on how closely one resembles one's sister", and of course, how closely the groom resembles someone one's sister ought to be fucking on one's wedding night.

Well, all the men are in tuxedos so they look pretty much the same, right? :)

@58 ciods
The rationality of your system takes my breath away! (I was literally speechless when I read this yesterday.)

Do you always do it on the very day of your anniversary? (What if one of you has just broken up with someone else or something; couldn't life circumstances such as that have a really short-term influence on one's thinking that would make the re-negotiation discussion timing better postponed by a while for emotional healing?)

@70 BDF
"Curious @57, have you been divorced?"

Yes. (One of my best decisions.) That's why I wrote @57 of the:

"(to me irritating) red tape of divorce"

Because it literally did piss me off.

(Perhaps kids present a rationale for marriage to be such a big waste of time to get out of, though. But I just felt the delay and red tape was stupid.) In other words, as you say:

"being married...it's much harder to get out of."

I guess that perfectly articulates what I think marriage is: an institution for people who want into something that's a significant hassle to get out of.

Which might make sense for people who unlike me want kids. But it seemed to me kinda sad to have self-imposed a bureaucratic hassle upon ourselves, I don't feel a need for my relationships to be bound by red tape. (I'm an adult, the idea that I would be influenced by red tape is preposterous.)

Here's an unrelated tangent about something that feels similar to me. In my early teen years I knew a guy whose way of saving money was to hide it from himself then forget where it was. Problem was, as a result he didn't have any idea where any of his money was, and it took forever for him to find any of it (and even then I was /not/ a fan of major inconvenience). It seemed crazy to me that he wouldn't instead cultivate some self-discipline.

But back to marriage. My bitterness about marriage due to my irritation with the significant hassle of divorce is why, some weeks back, I shared that before gay marriage was legal I joked to my very good gay friends that if straight people have to get married, everyone should.

I doN’ t think I can get an avatar, Fan. I made five comments on top of each other this morning, easier to do if no picture there. Erica, Mr Venn, few hold outs.
My distinction, Fan, is have you children or not. Someone who cheats in a non children marriage gets no second chance, a word in, nothing, if they maintained an affair.
I do agree re one night stands. Long as it doesn’t become a habit.

Once kids are there, it’s harder to move away from each other, freely. Every cheating case is different, and like you Fan, @70, I couldn’t do all that sneaking around.
Temptation is everywhere, off to work/ or used to/ we go, no children in tow. Industrial revolution separated home from work, adults from children.
Dan gives us examples of couples being stronger or renewed after cheating, as if to say it’s ok kids see cheating has got benefits. Talk first.

@62. Lava. Well, we don't. 'We' meaning here pretty much all queer or poly people.

I will give my sense of what the cishet monog norm is. It's the guy wanting to be nonmonogamous, the woman wanting to be monogamous, and the woman persuading the man to be monog (under duress), because sex is women is more scarce than sex with men. I'm glad I have no part of it.

Didn't Dan use to say things like this--brattish, unpleasant, heteroskeptical things, when the column was younger?

@70. Bi. I find nothing objectionable in monogamous people.

The letter read as if the lw thought monogamy (for 20 yrs) the higher ideal--perhaps unattainable, but superior. While I think negotiated nonmonogamy the higher ideal--not least because of the honesty, the honesty with yourself, the maturity, the good-faith communications, needed to make it work. The question's mindset--it would be great, but is possible?--spoke to me of an ignorance of the mentality that it wouldn't be all that great.

Well Harriet, are you misinformed!! Men and their jealousy around women, you can’t factor that because you don’t know that. Every week some crazed man kills his female partner, so you talk thru your arse.

Harriet @76, I think you are confusing "norm" with "stereotype." Yes, the het stereotype is that men want to bang anything that moves, while women want to settle down, and they use the power of their pussies to get men to grudgingly forsake all others, which they commit to but not all of them do (and those who cheat, well, they just can't help themselves, they are merely men). Indeed such assumptions benefit no one and ignore all the men who are monogamously inclined and all the women who are not.

Harriet @77, the letter did not read that way to me at all. My between-the-lines reading is that this is someone who values monogamy (which is fine) but who had not had the good fortune to find partners who share that view. Perhaps previous partners have cheated. Perhaps friends' or relatives' marriages have fallen apart due to infidelity. There are many ways to read this, and you chose to read it in a way that offended you. Nothing about the letter said "non-monogamy is bad." If you read a letter asking if it were possible to make a perfect pizza, would you feel the writer was dissing risotto? Monogamy is HER ideal. That does not imply anything about what she thinks of non-monogamy for others.

Harriet feels offended when someone doesn't even mention non-monogamy, and yet he's spouting all this tripe regarding monogamous straight people. Pot meet kettle!

When I had childcare responsibilities (even for a teen, a troubled teen), I could not have sustained 'poly' relationships. I could only time-block time, 6pm to 7am-style, or when I was away from home, for other lovers, with my largely wiping the slate clean and returning, mentally and practically, to my responsibilities at '6am'. I think I'd have had to go into my main relationship with a better threshed-out agreement of how it was going to be open, of which other partners would be known to children, and how, for it to have been functionally and sturdily nonmonogamous by design.

Super-generically, I think people have affairs because they can't say they're unhappy, or dissatisfied, when that risks loss. Straying is punished, in almost any context. There's a presumption that the cheater, the one who strayed, is the person at fault for a relationship's problems. So rather than making a clean breast of straying, the cheat says nothing, finds a justification in how the things that prompted him (/her/them) to stray are as bad as they were; and the lapse, or failure of impulse control, becomes an affair.

And Harriet, you’re assuming hetero men have no agency, that they choose this path.
It’s easy. Don’t promise what you in your heart know you can’t/ won’t/ don’t wAnt to promise, to deliver.
Have a marriage vow which involves acknowledging temptation may arise, and state how the both parties agree to deal with it.
This dishing of monogamy is not on, because it’s a well used human sexual structure, thru the ages. As has been poly structures.
Why do humans and all animals, have specific super focus on sexual relations? Because it’s about making offspring and for that certain conditions where the offspring can survive, need to be in place. That’s how and why humanity set up its group structures. Sex is real when there’s no contraception around.

@80. Bi. But it's a cultural cliché, isn't it--that straight women desire monogamy more than straight men. Is there no truth in the cliché?

My response to the original letter was a matter of its tone, to use nocute's word.

Harriet, it’s in the very fine print of patriarchal capitalist marriages, that men may stray. In Arab countries, wow, my sisters there one day will rise up.

Ask the men Harriet. In “ normal” society I think some young women may well steer their beaus towards marriage, once he’s taken her virginity. Who knows what goes on out there in princess and prince land.

@82. Lava. Lots of humans and other primates are born outside the couplings of 'social' spouses or mates. The 'husband' or male partner often takes on child-rearing responsibilities, but isn't a lock as the father of the child.

Het guys of course have agency, and can say no to any sexual arrangement (like monogamy) they don't like. But there are only fractionally more women than men; and it would seem plausible that, to get laid at all, the median, or perhaps the middling-to-poor, or perhaps just about any, guy would have to have sex on women's terms. Add to this the high valuation of chastity, and the ability of most high-status women to defer or repel sex until after marriage. Even if preferring nonmonogamy in terms of desires, or of gratifying impulses, most men could well be dragooned into notionally monogamous set-ups by women.

(I don't actually think chastity, virginity-before-marriage and monogamy benefit women, so much as the propertied classes, and the men of those classes. But maybe the interests of that class have been adopted by women in Western or abundant societies in the sex war).

@84. Lava. I agree that female infidelity is often still seen as 'pissing into the tent', not pissing out. But among solidly decent people in a country like the US, not just among a haute bourgeoisie, cheats in general get a lot of opprobrium.

Because sex is meaningful to humans, Harriet. It links to our heart , our feelings, vulnerabilities and for ciswomen right into the centre of our bodies.
Stealing, embezzlement, dishonouring a contract.. you do these things they too get big negative reactions.

Cis heterosexual women I’m referring to, because that’s what I know as it’s who I am. Now, a poly relationship would suit me fine. I don’t want a man making exclusive demands, now I’ve got such a wide birth of freedom.
As a younger, fertile hormones surging thru my body woman, I didn’t have the training for it, and I was a mother young.
In my family of origin lots of competition created by my mother with and amongst her daughters.
More people are identifying as poly in our western cultures, more not breeding, and now we sit out this ping pong virus, the little fucker.

@79. Bi. I don't see what 'norm' means to you. I was taking it to mean 'what usually happens, or is taken as usually happening'. Monog. and nonmonog. cleanly divide the whole field of possibilities in a way pizza and risotto don't.

@78. Lava. Of course men hold women to monogamy--for reasons of 'purity', pride, honor etc. But do women hold men to monogamy?

Homosexual sex Harriet, never a fear of pregnancy. Despite all the pills and potions developed to control cis women’s fertility / still no male pill? After all this time/
the sexual transaction in the heterosexual world always has that component circling around. Yes, we all have to look to avoiding STIs, and nature imposes boundaries on sex by these existing. Much as we all try to rise above nature, we are our bodies they do dictate terms.
I had this vision of how we’d all look to each other, if our insides were transparent. We’d see each other’s blood vessels and organs. What a blast that would be.

Harriet, yes there are cultural norms, blah blah blah which the bulk and file buy into, not really thinking it thru.
Then one can’t tell people, hey, you know that star dust in your eyes about marriage and babies, well, here’s the low down. People chose and off they go.

@88. Lava. You are right; but it's possibly to do an end-run around jealousy. Twinks do something for my partner that I could never--am I going to begrudge him it? I'd genuinely be more hurt if he sidelined me in some other matter.

I'm approaching my ten-years anniversary of being in a primary, committed, mostly cohabiting relationship; we're in our fifties, and he's nearer sixty than fifty. We have to hope we're in for the long haul. Yet at times we both find it difficult--and it's posts like @26 gueralinda & @32 Zoftig's that I find touching and inspiring, even helpful. This is what I meant by finding a difference in tone between them and the original lw.

In Dan's original answer Dan said: "We wouldn’t need to promise not fuck anyone or extract that promise from someone else if being in left rendered us incapable of even noticing how hot your barista is."

Dan - don't you know a properly "in left" person is exceptionally progressive. They would NEVER sexually objectify a barista, unless the barista has first given clear affirmative verbal consent to be eye-fucked / have their a visual memory of their appearance used in a masturbatory fantasy.

@61 "If a relationship is going to be nonmonogamous, why not just negotiate monogamishamy (?) from the outset?"

@26 "I would hope that most people know themselves well enough, by the time they are seriously thinking of getting married, to know if lifelong monogamy is a realistic proposal for them or not."

because sometimes you don't know that's even on the radar, especially when you're a young adult in a culture where monogamy is the default / assumed "best"

@Harriert: More than once, you've distanced yourself from both me and Mr. vennominon by generation. I'm not going to go back and try to find the comments, but you've several times said that he or I are a generation older than you.
Yet@93, you say you're in your "fifties." Well, I can't speak for Mr. Ven (though from his cultural references, I'm pretty sure we're within 5-7 years of each other), but I'm 56. So unless you're on some non-base-ten counting system. I am at most 6 years older than you.

@96: Why do I care, Harriet, about something so seemingly petty? Because you deploy your perceived generational age-difference as you did when you called me and other women (one younger than me) "battle axes"--as a way of suggesting diminished capacity or soapboxes on which you presume we stand.

You say "it's possible to do an end-run around jealousy" (@93) and that assumes that everyone has the same personality, the same character, the same formative experiences, the same reactions, and was raised in the same culture. That's not the case, even amongst people living in the same small town.

The jealousy point that was first raised by LavaGirl @78, is entirely different from the way you chose to interpret it @93. LavaGirl was referring to the horrifying fact that most women who are murdered, are murdered by their intimate partners. Why? A lot of it is jealousy. Jealousy that the women /will/ or /might/ cheat; jealousy of any other man who looks at "his" woman. Jealousy mixed with distrust, possessiveness, insecurity, and a sense of what is "owed" a man. That's toxic jealousy, toxic masculinity. To use a word guaranteed to make Hunter froth at the mouth, it's one result of the patriarchy, in which women are the possessions of their men.

Your example of not being able to fulfill your partner's desire for twinks leading to your reasonable accommodation to allow him twink-access, due to the non-monogamous aspect of your relationship, and how silly it would be for you to be jealous of any man who fits the twink description (or the ones your partner is interested in) is about as far away from the kind of jealousy that LavaGirl was talking about and the role it plays in monogamy as can be.

This isn't pizza and risotto, it's more like steak and ice cream. I do believe it's your disingenuousness that drives me craziest. You're clearly intelligent to know the difference between the two, and if you were sincere, your refusal or inability to consider anyone else's relationship or motives or background to be anything different from your own is obtuse and, given how outside the mainstream you appear to be, absurd and bizarre.

I miss Emma Liz.

Good one Harriet. Yes, jealousy can be got around and congratulations on the anniversary.
I enjoy reading about gay male coupling, some of it. Can get a bit unhygienic it appears, for me. Each to his own. It’s relaxed my ideas about monogamy, though I know it’s a different dynamic, and we can’t not see that. The hetero dynamic has many aspects to it and it can get lost in the false ones.
My belief system involves the masculine and feminine principles, yin/ yang, so I respect the differences I have with men, and acknowledged the similarities. My sons are aged between 36 and 23, and culturally, I see a big difference in attitudes, in how they present as men. Their father, classic patriarch, and still is.
Tension exists sexually between people, and it’s what keeps one bubbling along. All the masks get in the way.

Harriet @93, the difference in tone was between a woman who was beginning to doubt that what she wants is even possible versus people who know that it is possible because they have lived it. There was zero reference to non-monogamy in the letter, let alone some claim that monogamy is superior. You got instinctively defensive about your life choices and projected that onto this LW.

Of course women hold men to monogamy, or they try their best, that's why men hide it, because they know the wife will divorce them if their cheating is found out. What a silly question.

Hi, everyone! Long time reader, first time commenter. I respect and admire all of you so much.

Welcome JHa, and congratulations! You have earned yourself some very good luck, landing on @100, The Hunsky Award. And thank you for the thumbs up.

@96 nocute
Within the last year venn said he was 59. Which surprised me, at the time I was 60, and I'd always imagined (from all the "Positively Last Boyfriend" stuff, etc.) that venn was very old.

I wouldn't do math on things Harriet says about Harriet. Harriet told us less than a year ago that Harriet makes things up about the story Harriet tells us about Harriet.

That's one of many reasons I completely ignore Harriet's typing now.

The one Harriet-lie I'd stake everything I will ever own against is Harriet's claim that Harriet is a lawyer (ROTFLMAO), let alone one who sees the inside of a courtroom.

(Jesus I wish Harriet would pick a pronoun; I can't believe I just used the word "Harriet" four times in one sentence [because I refuse to pick a pronoun for Harriet]; and I bet that's not my personal record.)