Savage Love Aug 11, 2020 at 4:10 pm

Married People

JOE NEWTON

Comments

104

Music @92: "many (most?) of us are socialized from birth to view marriage as being a life goal." Yes, I think this is probably the number one reason. Marriage is something it is expected we will all do when we find someone we love. Consequently, young people in their first serious relationship may not even give any thought to -not- getting married. In the eyes of their parents and society itself, marriage legitimises that relationship; it's not "serious" until you get that paper signed. Not getting married remains the act of rebellion. This was rattling around my head; thanks for putting it into words.

Nocute @94, again you are correct that the reason for the sex hiatus might affect whether the wife would be bothered by the undie-wanking. Perhaps she took sex off the table because she caught him dressing up in her lingerie. If that is the reason he would be correct to assume she'd be bothered by the undie-wanking, and he should therefore stop doing it. I guess I'm just thinking that whatever he did, this is a small price for her to pay for his continued fidelity while she's withholding sex. She seems to be punishing him for whatever he did a year and a half ago, and I may be wrong but this does not seem indicative of a good-faith effort to either get things back on track or decide it was a transgression too far and set him free. In other words, I agree with your assessment that this is a fair solution to their current impasse.

Eva @100, congrats on the hunsky with some great advice for OTHER.

Griz @102, -unsweetened- iced tea!? I'm sorry, but we can't be friends. ;)

105

@98. venn. 'More worthy' in the sense that having throuples or groups marry would evidently not be assimilating to the heteronorm of the procreative couple. It would be saying, 'give us the status, sure, give us the cachet, give us the legal rights (and responsibilities), but leave out the religious justification, leave out the simulation of a parenting couple; give up on the idea we're gravitating to the unique heritage and history of the institution of marriage, and don't just want kinship and other rights'. Have you read Obergefell? It's all about, 'it's said that these men and women [gays wanting to marry] are parodying our holy institution, civilisation's finest bulwark. No! They are aspiring to it! They want to carry its sacred flame, shelter in its guiding light'. (This is a paraphrase). What bullshit. If queers want to parody marriage but avoid exclusion from the rights it bestows--if this is their justification for getting married--well, it's a perfectly good justification in my mind. I was once accused of that; but it happens not to be true--I actually did in my own life want to be something very like het-married.

Now, I've more or less reverted to what I thought in my late 20s. Everything to do with marriage, as opposed to a committed LTR, that's valuable involves the formalisation of rights and responsibilities; and the rest is sanctimony.

@92. musicbiker. I think there is a view at large among lots of people, regular non-Savigista people, that would say, 'well, if you really love someone, you'll want to be married to them'. Or 'if he really cares about you, he'll marry you'. I find the view fairly tractable, in that it's not obviously prejudicial to me as a non-normative person. The people thinking this, or the median purple-state person thinking this, would not be against me marrying.

One's parents and the expectations they hold dear are another matter. My not being 'normal' was a disappointment to my mother that, as it were, seeped into her bones.

@91. Bi. Well, in the case of the guy jerking into his wife's knickers, we don't know whether his bi-ness is relevant to his problems or not.

We don't know what the big problem is; but after 18 months, and bearing in mind I can only speak to the generality of cases, I'd say she should either now put out or get out.

106

Harriet @105, or as Beyoncé sang, "If you like it, you shoulda put a ring on it." (How was that 12 years ago!?)

107

@106. Bi. And how is Beyoncé not now President?

108

Griz @82 I thought your @60 X, Y was a great pun / good laugh. Just too busy to comment at the time.

110

I have to respond to Other. She was me 25 years ago, in love with an unavailable man who couldn't seem to find a way out of his long-term live in relationship. Prior to falling for him, I had planned to move to another state for a Bachelor's program unavailable where we lived at the time. As our relationship progressed and he seemed unable to make any decisions, I decided to proceed with my plans regardless of the affect on him and our relationship. I wasn't sure I could follow through, but I did - and within six months he somehow found a way to end his previous relationship. I finished my degree, he had to spend some time living on his own, and we've been married now for over 20 years. I honestly don't think he would have acted if I hadn't decided to take control of my own life - with or without him. One big difference though, my husband didn't have any children with his ex.

111

Cocky @109, I'm not sure what respect I'm due. I did not write the song nor am I endorsing its message, just offering it as a lyrical illustration of the mindset Harriet was discussing in their reply to Musicbiker. Indeed, some people get married because their partners view such a commitment as proof of love, and indeed, this is an outdated and un-feminist way of looking at relationships. The discussion was reasons people get married, not -valid- reasons they get married. I agree that marriage ultimatums have no place in the 21st century.

112

OTHER didn't exactly bury the lede, but she really doesn't seem to see its significance. She says right away this highly circumscribed secret romance is the 'best relationship she's ever had'. This is not someone operating with the experience level one might expect at nearly 40.. and yeah, she's making the kinds of mistakes that most people make in their early twenties. The best piece of advice I could give her is that this is no time to trust your own perceptions. Clarify the situation with the boyfriend and live with the potentially painful results, or suffer in silence and decreasing satisfaction for as long as you want -- as desperately urgent is that choice seems to you right now, the the much more important next step should be finding yourself a kind, trained therapist with whom you can unpack what you imagine a good relationship is supposed to look like. That's going to save you so, so much trouble and heartache in the long run.

113

M?? Harriet - Ah. Well, I always did think gays and probably at least half the other excluded teams could have devised something(s) better than marriage, but nothing that would have worked in the US. I still have a hunch that the effect of what you're after would be to give most of the assistance to the most heteronormative people of all, certainly by Biblical standards. It might still be worth doing anyway. But what one wants a married unit to be certainly merits more contemplation than many, if not most, seem to supply.

I think I tend to frame it more along class lines. It reminds me of how what the working class wants most is to regenerate itself in perpetuity. As Mr Coltrane phrased it in Cracker, "Join the firm; take the wages; move two blocks away," as the biggest compliment possible to a working-class parent. Or there's the very early story Rumpole and the Younger Generation, in which Rumpole tries to keep his client Jim Timson from keeping it in the family and becoming just like his dad, and has to make do with encouraging his own son Nick's idea to read PPE instead of law.
xxx
Ms Fan @91 - I forgot for a bit that one of my bridge plays had a son who married for the first time at age 55. As she was only moderately over the moon about it, I don't think there was a question of grandchildren.

114

Hello all. WANK here.

Thanks to Dan for his response and to all the posters here for your thoughtful commentary. You've all given me a lot more to think about.

I'm happy to provide a little more context and answer some questions that have come up. I left a number of details out of the letter to keep it brief enough to have a hope of getting picked for publication without severe editing.

The issues my wife and I are having relate to our relationship with a young adult child of my first marriage. These have been building for several years and have gotten worse since that child had to move back home with us... about eighteen months ago. The lack of sex is not a direct response to that, or an ultimatum (i.e. no more sex until the child moves out). My wife has not been using sex as a bargaining chip. It is more that the conflict has affected how my wife feels about me, how attracted she is to me, etc. Anger and resentment are not sexy feelings. Exacerbating the issue is that in times of stress and anxiety, I seek out physical contact while my wife's response is to withdraw. All this added to the stresses of her very demanding job and the impact of having two kids under eight has brought us to this point.

As a stated in the letter, we are working on these issues. We've done couples counselling and I am in individual counselling which has helped me to communicate better with my wife. I have been working on facing difficult conversations instead of avoiding them, which was one habit that was particularly damaging our relationship as my wife felt I wasn't hearing, respecting, or supporting her in the conflict with our child. These efforts are starting to bear fruit; there is still work to be done but we both believe our relationship can be restored.

My bisexuality is most emphatically not a source of conflict between us. My wife considers it an attractive feature and when we are intimate it is a big part of our dirty talk and fantasy play. I mentioned it simply by way of introduction, and to do my own small part to combat bi erasure.

To the poster who wondered if the precipitating event was me getting caught wearing my wife's panties, good guess but no. I do wear panties, in addition to jacking off into them, but I don't need my wife's as I have my own. They are worn with her cheerful knowledge, and several are pairs that she has given me herself.

Finally, regarding the signoff, WANK is entirely my creation. Took a bit of time to think up the right "N" verb but I think it was worth the effort.

Thanks again for all your insights.

115

I’m late to the comments this week because I’ve been out camping. I’d like to respond to two comments made much earlier about the reasons to get married. In order to save everyone the trouble of scrolling back and forth, I’ll reproduce them here.

drjones@11: When my wife and I got hitched it was for insurance purposes entirely, but it became a part of our sub/dom play. She in the kitchen in her apron, heels and nothing else washing the dishes, while her brutish husband has his way with her whenever he pleases. All very 50s stereotype cosplay, but it gets us off now and then. All those patriarchal ideas of a wife as a possession become grist for the transgressive power game mill.

BiDanFan@20 :
DrJones @11, and you could do the same with the man in the apron and heels, just saying

Indeed, BiDanFan’s reversal possibility describes a scene from my marriage, but without the high heels (we’re not in to cross dressing.) My wife likes me either naked or wearing a white apron to frame and contrast my red bottom from a recent spanking. The fact that we’re married seems to enhance the femdom aspect of our relationship.

Being married has also made the fact that my wife has at various times taken a lover seem more transgressive. Although it’s meaning may have expanded in recent times, the original definition of a cuckold was a husband whose wife had taken a lover. One of the tropes in cuckold erotica is the wife bringing her lover home and spending the night with him in the “marriage bed” while putting the husband in the spare bedroom, a practice my wife has employed for both of our erotic enhancement.

Indeed, the whole act of getting married is one of submission on my part. She wanted to get married and I didn’t. As she became more dominant and my natural submissive nature became more apparent, it became obvious that she was going to get what she wanted. We’ve been married for quite a long time, and I’m surprised how well the institution has worked for both of us.

116

WANK, your wife sounds a lot worse of a spouse now that you've given us more information. I'm amazed you haven't given up. Young adult child needs a place to live... she withdraws sex for a year and a half??? I don't know how you are being so patient. Wank away.

117

@114: Hey bluewanker, thanks for popping in and clearing some things up.
I'm happy to see that it sounds as though you and your wife are making progress. It also sounds as if the marriage was previously pretty strong, sexually, and I wonder if your telling your wife that you use her used panties to masturbate because you feel closer to her then wouldn't be a good idea. It definitely sounds as though she wouldn't be upset or consider this to be an act of betrayal. Your original letter made it clear that you were concerned you were crossing some ethical boundary by not obtaining your wife's informed consent, and I think that not only do Dan and most of us think this isn't an ethical violation, but it further sounds as though your wife wouldn't see what you've been doing as a violation.

But more importantly, it would be a gentle and playful way for you to express several things to your wife:

1) You think about having sex with her.
2) You miss having sex with her.
3) You aren't going to pressure her, but respect her desire to wait until she has desire.
4) You are considerate.
5) You're not getting those sexual needs met elsewhere--and not even (exclusively) through porn--you want HER (I don't know how she feels about porn; if she's cool with it, this might not be as much of an issue, but you want her to know that although you'll always respect her needs and you use porn to wank, you'd prefer to have sex with her, your smart, kind, loving, sexy wife.
6) You can be playful and creative.

Maybe you can suggest that she participate in such a passive way as to watch you do this?

As far as the original source of conflict is concerned, although you say the issues are with your young adult son, it sounds remarkably similar to the way spouses get resentful, feel overworked and underappreciated, and stressed-out with a new baby.
Parenting young adult children can be draining. Dealing with a difficult child who isn't your own (and whom you may not have raised or known for a very long time) is tricky and delicate. Feeling that your spouse ignores your needs and doesn't respect you because he's busy placating a difficult adult who is draining resources such as time, energy, possibly money would certainly build resentment. And then there's the issue of the effect your adult child might be having on your two younger children: perhaps your wife is concerned that they're being exposed to things she'd rather not have them be exposed to just yet.

So keep up the couples and individual therapy and maybe schedule a date night that explicitly won't be expected to include sex. Have a late-night candlelight dinner (bring the food in) after the younger kids have gone to sleep. Make time to talk to each other as a couple. Maybe make this a regular once-a-week event. But don't make it seem as though you're doing this so she'll "give you" sex.

Good luck!

118

@116, dropout: Some kids are really awful.
Some parents exacerbate or enable awfulness.
Just sayin'.

119

Hey MAD. Why get married? I don't know. But if you do take the plunge, look at bluewanker's thoughtful post for a solid model of how a marriage can work ]through hard times with two open, honest, considerate partners.

120

bluewanker @114: Thanks for dropping by. As you've no doubt observed, when the fundamental problems behind a letter aren't immediately obvious, we make things up and then debate furiously. Every detail becomes gist for the mill.

Your updated story reminded me of the aphorism that babies are born cute so we fall in love with them, and hence don't murder them when they become teenagers. Your wife didn't have that experience with your young adult child. As a parent of young adults, and a girlfriend who is not their mother, I don't envy your situation.

Scratch my prior comments advising you to refrain. Your wife hasn't banished sex; she simply doesn't want to have sex. I hope you can find a way to let her know you still find her hot and sexy. Good luck!

121

It just occurred to me that WANK's son might be a drummer!

122

Addendum to 119: I meant if MAD decides to take the plunge again. I forgot that she had already tried it once.

123

Ens @119, what? Bluewanker's situation seems like a great example of why NOT to get married! They haven't had sex in a year and a half; she has no desire and, potentially, no respect left for him, yet they haven't broken up; Mrs Bluewanker withdraws when upset, and seemingly stays withdrawn for a year and a half with no end in sight. No one reading their story would be motivated to marry, that's for sure. Bluewanker, unless you're not being honest, you seem like a model partner and parent. Question, would Mrs Bluewanker agree to an open relationship while she has no desire for you, and would that be something you want? I get that if she resents you, she has no desire for you, and she shouldn't be pressured to "put out" under those conditions. But surely she has a heart. If she is not in fact punishing you, she should be willing to let you get your relief elsewhere. If she's still too angry and resentful to have sex or even physical affection after a year and a half I don't see those feelings returning, and I don't think advising you to kick your child out (I'm presuming they have had substance abuse or legal problems) would be the way forward. I think perhaps you need to have one more difficult conversation, a conversation about your sexual needs. Good luck.

124

Sad for you bluewanker @114, that your own child has caused this rift with your wife. And for eighteen months instead of supporting you in dealing with ‘ a young adult child’, even with, no doubt ‘young adult’ issues.
You are his father, and if your wife can’t support you in helping to rear him? Withdraws sex because the kid is difficult? This is her problem.

125

For eighteen months she’s withheld sex, WANK? And you still love and desire her.. what has this child done, what is he doing? Whatever it is, her rejecting behaviour will be making it worse.

126

BDF @123: I think Mrs. WANK is indeed punishing Mr. WANK, but doesn't up and leave. He's passively letting her anger wash over him to maintain the status quo, without dealing with the young adult child situation. Eighteen months of this.

WANK asking for open or a hall pass would likely spell the demise of this union. Agreed that this marriage does not land in the plus column.

127

I realize that often it's fun for us to debate a topic, to chew it and mull it and talk about all the hypotheticals, and if we want to discuss how long we would put up with a spouse who doesn't want to have sex, that's fine.

But people are piling on bluewanker, who's trying to work on his marriage, and I see comments which seem designed to escalate this couple's problems. Bluewanker didn't ask what his wife should be willing to put up with from his young-adult child from a previous relationship, and he didn't ask whether or not his marriage should be held up as an example. Here's what he actually asked:

"I worry that I’m violating her—which is not something I want to do. I know that if I were doing this with a stranger's panties, or with the panties of someone I knew but was not in an intimate relationship with, it would be at best creepy and at worst a sex crime. But she’s my wife, and although we are in a hard place right now, we’re trying to find our way back to each other. So, is this an acceptable way for me to get off while we work on our relationship? Or is it a violation?"

We've all said no, it's not a violation. Maybe we should let the man alone to try to repair his marriage the way he thinks best.

And sure, let's have a theoretical discussion about how long and under what circumstances we'd each wait a spouse out of a sex strike.

128

@127 No thanks, internet police.

129

@BiDan 123. Stress, resentment and conflict over high-stakes issues like childrearing can happen in any relationship. So too can struggles over sexual compatibility. What I find inspiring about bluewanker’s description of his marriage is that they seem to be trying to deal with it, although she appears to have some high barriers built up. I think they are at least talking about their with challenges, which many couples do not. For his part, he acknowledges his avoidant personality. They are in counseling. I see no evidence his wife “has no respect for him.” She clearly is struggling with desire in the context of some very major crises, but she “has not been using sex as a bargaining chip.” It seems that before the crisis in their marriage, she was accepting of his sexuality and they engaged in an exciting and adventurous erotic life. I agree with you that bluewanker seems like “a model partner and parent,” and perhaps I am in in error to assume the same of his wife, although I think those kind of folks end up with each other as often as not. Regardless, based on BW’s description, they seem like people who have fallen on hard times but are willing to work on their problems. And that’s admirable.

Of course, I do not mean to imply that this quality is the exclusive purview of the married, and If I did imply it, I was wrong. But for a couple that is going through stress, distance, and sexlessness (things that occur in many long-term relationships) these two seem to be trying to deal with it without rancor and with an eye toward a long-term solution. If I am wrong about them, maybe bluewanker will correct me.

130

Thanks nocute, but you do you.
Since when did LW’s question stop anyone here from branching out.
This is a child and by the sound of this marriage it’s terminal anyway. Let’s hope MsWank, when she marries again, finds a nice new husband who will love her children by another man.

131

Thanks again for the insights. I get that there is a lot that has to be left out in boiling down complex real-world situations into letters to advice columnists and comments on the same. Some assumptions and interpolations have to me made. Some folks are very close to the mark. Nocutename @117 has definitely read clearly between the lines.

Thanks for your concern LavaGirl @130 but I can assure you that my marriage is not "terminal". I am 100% sure we will make it? No, but really, who can be? We are confronting and working through our issues. I remain hopeful.

132

I'd also add that Ens.Pulver @129 comes very close to describing how I feel about my wife, that we are "people who have fallen on hard times but are willing to work on their problems." We may or may not succeed but we haven't given up yet. Which is why my question wasn't about how to (or whether to) salvage my marriage and instead about the ethics of something I was doing in the meantime.

As to opening our marriage, that may well happen in the future. We've often discussed threesomes and swinging, and both want that to happen. We've each indicated to the other that an open marriage wouldn't be a dealbreaker. That we haven't yet is mostly down to timing, logistics, and a few other things that impinge on the how and when but not so much the whether.

In the immediate situation though, I'd rather wait. I think it best to build an open marriage on the foundation of a solid relationship rather than as an attempt to salvage one that's in need of some repair.

133

Mr Blue, @132; I hope you two can work this thru.. and that all your children grow well.

134

Fubar @126, after I posted I realised that asking for a hall pass (a) would not be workable in the age of covid anyway and (b) would indeed not help a relationship that is so precarious as it is. Perhaps subconsciously I wanted to trigger an end to this purgatory he finds himself in. I acknowledged he may not want an open relationship anyway; talking about "his sexual needs" would include the undie-wanking, as Nocute proposed, and whatever else Bluewanker feels his needs are at this time.

Nocute @127, where do you see "piling on"? Bluewanker voluntarily submitted his question to Savage Love knowing that not just Dan would be discussing it. He then voluntarily read the comments and added more information. If he did not want his situation discussed he wouldn't have done these things. I don't see anyone calling him the bad guy; I see only support for him. Some may be "piling on" his wife but it's up to him whether to give any credence to comments from people who aren't married to her. Bluewanker hasn't told us he doesn't want his life discussed, quite the opposite, so I appreciate the sentiment behind your post but will continue to discuss Bluewanker unless he asks us to drop it.

Ens @129: "Stress, resentment and conflict over high-stakes issues like childrearing can happen in any relationship." Not if you don't have children, and I doubt many unmarried couples, not having made "for better or for worse, until death do us part" vows would beat a dead relationship horse for a year and a half. I think you're seeing the fact that these two are still together as a commendation of marriage, while I see it as a condemnation. Eighteen months of alienation of affection? She should have walked, but because they're married with kids they both feel compelled to "make this work" although it has no sign of working. Time to switch focus from marriage counselling to divorce counselling, I feel.

Bluewanker @131, well, I guess you know your wife and we don't. I am wondering whether you're seeing her through rose-coloured glasses. (Also, speaking as a child of unhappy parents who should have divorced, I'll raise the point that you are modelling a broken relationship to your younger children; this will not set them up well for their future relationships. Something to think about.)

Still, if you say she is trying I guess I have to believe you, and continue to hope for some kind of breakthrough soon. In the meantime, you're doing nothing wrong with the undie-wanking, and with this new information about her general attitude towards non-hetero-vanilla-monogamous sex I'll steal some of your goodwill toward her and opine that I don't think she'd mind. Continue doing what you gotta do to stay married, stay faithful and stay sane. And again, good luck.

135

@BiDan 134. I'll say one more thing and then let go of my end of the rope. I clearly stated that my positive appraisal of the wankersons relationship WAS NOT an endorsement of the institution of marriage, but rather of their commitment to handling problems in a long-term relationship. And I only used childrearing as an example -- certainly there are other existential crises that can test a LTR. Is it always a virtue to stick it out? Of course not. But it seems these two have more keeping them together than a mortgage and kids.

I also think it odd that you cast such doubt on bluewanker's own assessment of his marriage. His eye seems clear, and I don't sense it is peering through rose-colored glass.

136

Ms Cute - Where did "son" come from, when AC2 was not gendered? I would not have put "daughter", though my first thought ran to Mrs Clay returning to her father's home after an unprosperous marriage.

137

@36: Mr. Ven, I meant to be gender-neutral, as bluewanker didn't give that information, and discovered to my dismay after I had hit "post comment" and seen it go up, that I had made that child a man. There was no reason for this.

138

@104 BiDanFan: Wait----what?? We can't be friends? I never said you couldn't have sweetened iced tea. I have to watch my sugar because of my triglyceride issues (I was diagnosed Type II diabetes seven years ago, so I'm watching my diet). I'm currently on 800 mg of ibuprofen to be taken with food and stool softeners daily until further notice. So until I get the all-clear from my OB-GYN, red, red wiiiine ---for Griz---is off limits for now. :/?
@108 delta35; Many thanks. I understand about your being too busy to respond to all comments (who among us can?). There's a lot going on. The X and Y joke was Griz's two cents' worth on MAD's situation. I never studied chemistry in high school or college. I was afraid I would have unintentionally blown something up. :)
@114 bluewanker: Thank yo for joining us. I'm glad to hear things are getting better with your wife and kids. :)

139

Because in the current Err of Trump / Pence it is indeed, a Mad, Mad, Mad, Mad World (although I would now declare director / producer Stanley Kramer, cast & crew among the SANE ones), and in honor of MAD's letter to Dan, Griz offers this ode:

I'm now divorced after marrying the wrong guy.
When I think of my X I often wonder Y.
Now that I've cleared some craziness in my head
I focus on getting some Z's, instead. :)

Did I mention that I suck in Chemistry?

140

Mr. Venn & Ms. Cute @136 & 137: I made the same error, gendering the child as male @121. It may have been because, as many of us were raised to believe, boys are made of slugs and snails, while girls are made of sugar and spice. In the age of Trump, it's well past time to rethink this.

Which brings me back to dropout @116. Young adult child needs a place to live, but could, for example, be a Trump supporter. Things are not always clear cut.

141

BiDanFan @134, no worries. I've been reading Dan for 25 years and I've spent my share of time in the comments section here as well (under a different name) so I knew what I was getting into. I'd say your commentary was tough but fair. I get that for a lot of people, an eighteen-month dry spell - or more properly, the sort of relationship conflict that leads to such a dry spell - would mean the end of the relationship. That outcome has been on the table and could be back, but for the moment we are trying to work it out and things have been getting better.

Re the gender of the adult child, not mentioned as it's not relevant and I am trying to respect as much privacy as I can here. Though I will say to @140 fubar no, emphatically not a Trump supporter!

142

Another reply to BiDanFan @134: who says, "Speaking as a child of unhappy parents who should have divorced, I'll raise the point that you are modelling a broken relationship to your younger children." This is certainly something that has weighed on my mind.

My own parents are going on sixty years of happy marriage. I have literally never seen them argue and would be hard pressed to think of a time they showed disagreement. As a child this was wonderful but as an adult I have realized I have no model for what a functional loving relationship between two people who do not always agree looks like.

One challenge in my current relationship is that, based on what I saw from my parents, I responded to any argument as though it were a relationship extinction level event. It has taken a long time to learn that I could just listen to my wife express unhappiness with me and not immediately try to fix it or explain it away.

Toxic relationships hurt children. I get that. I am trying instead to model an adult relationship that can incorporate and survive difficult circumstances.

144

@143 Yes? Can I help you?

145

bluewanker @142: Sex is the covenant in a sexually monogamous relationship. Beyond about a fortnite (and that would be pushing it), I'd be over and out. With extenuating circumstances, a month, or two... with a difficult adult child, tack on a month or two.

Aside from the lack of partnered sex, how do you live with 18 months of (hopefully) low-grade conflict? And why would you?

I did a 12-year stint in a shitty marriage, because we had young children. It was really difficult for the children, and it formed then. Nevertheless, they turned out to be interesting and kind young adults.

146

bluewanker- Was this the first time your wife expressed her anger and frustration towards you in such a strong, prolonged manner?
Were there any previous anger incident in which your child was not involved?
Is the recent child issue a part of an ongoing frustration on her side?

I’m asking you these questions because of a past relationship I had. Not to be intrusive, you don’t have to answer anyone but yourself, but sometimes such behavior may indicate an ongoing unhappiness and/or a personality trait which may not be fully under your control.

Finally, some laundry tips: don’t ever wank in silk panties as even the tiniest pre cum drop may leave a permanent stain even when washing them right away.
Also, while it doesn’t hurt to pre-wash cotton or satin panties right after the act and prior to throwing them in the washing machine, it is not mandatory, and you’ll do just fine if you don’t.

I’m aware that there may be an ick factor here, especially when you’re washing the entire family’s clothes in the same load (seriously unintended).

147

Dear OTHER, I have been in your exact situation: me the young nurse, him the consultant surgeon with young kids and wife who didn't give him the attention he needed. The affair adds the extra spice: the secrecy (presumably people at work don't know, and you haven't told many of your friends or family), furtive touches, stolen glances, the shared secret, and presumably he's taking you out, wining and dining you (if no COVID restrictions where you live). Even the flip side fuels the affair: the longing and desperation to be together but alas you can't be, the highs when you do manage an hour or 2 he could spare you. You may realise one day this is as good as it gets and Dr can't or won't offer more. Have that conversation, lay out the cards, be clear on what you want out of life, and what this affair's limitations are. Either you enjoy it while it lasts, accept the role of the mistress and the benefits of being the icing on the cake, or end it because you want and deserve more than the bits on the side. Good luck! Mine ended after 2 years, and I ended it.

148

@109. cocky. I think just the opposite. I think the song reminds fellow-travelers in mainstream feminism--people like me--that women don't always want what we want ourselves, or what we want them to want (whether or not we consider ourselves women).

149

@113. venn. What we do we want a marital unit to be? I would have no predisposition in favor of its being two persons, first of all.

Paternity and maternity would seem to confer rights that actually turning up, being there, being the practical, active caregiver (perhaps as 'co-parent') for a child don't. This is something that I'd want to remedy in principle. But let's consider the question outwith children. Let's suppose it true (as it is in all OECD countries (?)) that married people separate less often (than non-married sexually involved cohabitants) and stand to cost the state less in prospective social security payments (pension, 'housing benefit', unemployment monies, etc.). Should a lawmaker or finance department bureaucrat seek to incentivise marriage through the tax code? Let's presume there was equal marriage. I'd still have ideological qualms. I'd still think it was forcing people into a heteronormative form. I'd prefer couples or those in long-term relationships to be induced to stay together, or rewarded for doing so, by some other arrangements, like of milestone payments for years together or years of not drawing on the collective safety net.

150

@114. Bluewanker. I think you're going to need to tell us more yet, maybe, to make sense of your problem.

Your wife is angry with you for bringing an adult child to live in the home where you are raising two of your own (of her) children under eight? 'Angry' and 'resentful', you say. Is your elder child a threat to your younger children, in any way? Does this older child have special needs? Is s/he / they mentally ill? Do they have behavioral, or learning, difficulties? If your wife would be correct in any sense in thinking that your older child imperils her kids, jeopardizes them above and beyond the commitment of time you have to make to the other child, then the older child should not be living in the same home. Look for another arrangement. Look for sources of funding supporting that. Move out in extremis if your older child needs you. But don't expose your younger children to risk.

But if not.... If the most your wife could say about your older child is that he's/she's/they're burdensome, obnoxious, a bad example to her own kids, then you would be supernaturally forbearing and she unreasonable. You haven't had sex for 18 months, for heaven's sake. Even if your attempts to connect have been blunderingly automatic (and that has upset your wife), she has had time to make a good-faith effort to re-engage with sex when you've been communicating better. Surely, as nocute suggests, you've had opportunities for date nights, 'respite care', time alone together, relief from all immediate parenting responsibilities....

The sense you're giving me is that you're unusually forbearing--which will make you pig in the middle between your wife and adult child. The more you advocate for, possibly make excuses for, your older child, the more she digs in and fights for her own kids. Decide what you think is right and act consistently with everyone.

As for the sex, I can't think that the panties-violation (which is minor) your real issue.

151

@129. Ensign. I'm not 'inspired' by any marriage where the couple haven't had sex for 18 months. I'm not sure I'd be inspired by any relationship where there's been no sex for 18 days, though maybe that's just me.....

I wouldn't blame the wife here for using sex as a bargaining chip, if the adult child is really bad. If he (we don't know the child's sex, but 'he' is more readily imaginable) e.g. shakes a 5yo and introduces a 7yo to marijuana, then Bluewanker's wife is entitled to do whatever she can to get through to him. Of course we can regret they can't communicate another way.

152

@132. Bluewanker. What can you do to mitigate your wife's anger and resentment at your living situation, eighteen months after it appears to have started? Do, that is, that's fair and loving to your older child? It seems to me that all the discussions you've had with your wife, including in couples therapy, have not led to your settling on a joint plan.

I will extrapolate, necessarily, and think that the counselor, or your wife, has asked about a timescale for your child's being with you; and you've batted that back e.g. talking about relapses or independence or 'when s/he's well enough to stand on her own feet'. They've talked about the conditions to be met before your child leaves, and you've similarly hummed-and-hawed. You owe it to your wife and other children to agree on a plan. You can advocate for your older child all you like in formulating the plan with your wife. The plan could be about what's best for him/her, not about getting him out of your home (as it might be, from your wife's perspective). But it is not fair to anyone, not even for your elder child, for you to be pig in the middle forever.

Let's leave sex out of it for now. You are not evincing any resentment at your wife for withdrawing for so long. On the narrow jerking-off issue, I'd give you a pass. I can believe that the underlying sexual dynamic of your relationship is that your wife is consciously trying to get through to you by denying sex, and that you are consciously or unconsciously not allowing her to do this. I might further guess your equanimity comes over as passive-aggressive.

153

Toxic relationships between the parents hurt the children. Children would rather come from a broken home than live in one.

They sound good on the surface, and you can find a zillion adult children attesting to the truth of them, but here's my problem with those statements: They're circular. Most marriages (all?) have good and bad in them. There are smooth spots and rough spots. That's what commitment is for, to help you over the tough times. If a child grows up a psychological mess, it's easy to point to the toxic parents and say they'd have been better off if the parents divorced--- but you don't know that. There's no control group, no do over to test the theory.

If a child grows up fine, they probably have no idea when the marriage was in trouble or that the marriage had ever been in trouble. Consider: how would children in (what was to them) a happy home know that one parent was seething over a lack of sexual affection?

So if the child grows up unhappy and aware of the parents' marital discord, they blame the marital discord. If the child grows up happy, that's proof that there was no discord.

154

@153 Fichu
I have some difficulties with this reasoning.

"Most marriages (all?) have good and bad in them."

While true, there's a continuum. The marriages with so much bad they separated would tend to be worse than the ones that didn't separate.

"If a child grows up fine, they probably have no idea when the marriage was in trouble or that the marriage had ever been in trouble."

Here's where my major issue is. Even plants are known to thrive or not based upon the factor of the human hostility in their environment. The notion that humans can't sense hostility in other humans' subtle behavior, physical and emotional state, and body language is ludicrous. (I can see how this notion might appear reasonable to some people, for example those on the spectrum, but as a person who is very good at reading people it doesn't sound the least bit reasonable to me.)

/Break/
I'm vaguely aware that this is part of some larger discussion which I have mostly not read. First because the panty-wanking didn't seem worth my opining on; I noticed that the WANKer has checked in, but I haven't made time for the tangents I sense were opened up by that. Sorry WANK, particularly since you're one of us, but it's been crazy hot here, and I trust you know how to separate the wheat from the chaff of the comments.

155

154 Curious-- If you really believe that "even plants are known to thrive or not based up the factor of human hostility in their environment," best that I drop out of this discussion right here. We're not starting from the same set of assumptions about science and reality. We may well agree about other things, but not that one.

156

@155 Fichu
"If you really believe"

I'm not surprised that you haven't sought out the data I have to support that sentence. (People often don't seek out data to support things they aren't comfortable with learning; which I will note is the antithesis of scientific thinking.)

But take that sentence out and my primary argument is unchanged. So it's probably best that you do "drop out of this discussion right here", because I doubt you have a decent response to make to my primary argument.

157

Hello, WANK (aka bluewanker)

Welcome to the discussion. Although the details you have provided flesh out the situation, they also create more problems, the major one being an imbalance in the well-being of your wife.

You are managing the sex-strike by having enabled various coping mechanisms. Not only are you still having sex (because solo sex is still sex), you're involving your wife as fantasy material. So, even if you are deprived, you are not suffering. You have found stress relief that really is stress relief.

But what does your wife have? You've mentioned that times are tough. Does that extend to finances? However the sexless situation works out, what is your wife doing to give her at least aesthetic pleasure? Does she go for regular mani-pedi, massage, or facial treatments? Things that will make her feel appreciated and pampered?

If you can't afford it on top of your current financial situation, then I would suggest a WANK jar to which you contribute even a minimal amount every time you derive remote pleasure from her image and undies. That's one way you can bolster your wife's psyche as she makes her way out of the current maze - even if the decision to enter it was one-sided.

158

Who's up for this week's Double Whammy? Tick...tick...tick...

160

Auntie Griz:

Double-whammy? Only if I post a whole bunch of new comments as it went dead. Suddenly.

Anyway, I am formulating my observations on OTHER. Perhaps by morning....

161

Griz @138, just a joke! Hence the winky face. Sorry to hear you also have diabetes.

Bluewanker @141-142, thanks for your replies, and for taking my comments in the spirit intended. I do think many of us try to do the opposite of what our parents did, myself and my own parents included. I hope that you can resolve things, one way or the other, and that your older child can get back on their feet, which would no doubt improve the dynamic for everyone.

Harriet @151, the wife is still not being reasonable in your hypothetical where the older child is a threat to the younger children's well being. In that situation (which I do not believe is the case, just saying), a good parent would leave, taking her kids with her.

162

Ms Cute - I assumed it was an accident, as that sort of thing is highly unusual for you (I don't know about Mr Bar). I just wondered if you suspected an incel.
xxx
Ms Fichu - I can accept that some children may have such laser-like focus that they can grow up happily without noticing the Iceberg in the Ballroom. The trick is when they go to replicate the style and might need to find partners of the same type. (I recall seeing something about plants that would back up the suggestion.)
xxx
M?? Harriet - I doubt we can find a common vocabulary to get anywhere productive, but doubtless you have given the matter significant consideration. I disagree with almost everything you want, but support your right to advocate for the world your team desires and to have at least a small corner of it all to itself if it doesn't conquer.

As for Mr Blue and AC2, I note that he once referred to AC2 as "our" child, which made me wonder whether W2 saw it the same way, quite the opposite, or somewhere in between. I suspect that Ms Cute can remember more of what Ms Yoffe had to say about step-parenting than I can. My mind runs mainly to Miss Austen's blurring stepmother and mother-in-law.
xxx
Ms Helenka - The principle is sound, but the implementation seems, as Sandra Bezic might call an ill-conceived free skate designed to rework someone's image, a drastic step in the wrong direction, establishing a model in which one party pays for sex and equating a maintenance-level substitute with feeling pampered. That LW2 seems the sort of person who might take the suggestion could even be a little part of the problem. Can we think of something a bit more equitable? You usually do.

163

@161. Bi. I think in any case that Bluewanker and his wife should be open to living apart for a while, he with his elder child, who needs help, and his wife with her own younger children. There need be no imputation of fault here, and no sense the solution is anything but temporary. The event that led to his child's coming to stay with them happened 18 months ago; they will have had many discussions since then, and have started therapy--but apparently they are no nearer a joint plan; and their living arrangement has thrown a spanner in the works between them sexually and probably otherwise.

Maybe Bluewanker, too, can concentrate thinking about the situation from his elder child's perspective: he (I'll just say 'he') is living in the house of his mother-in-law and much younger half-siblings, apparently incapacitated; she resents him; voices anger, maybe hostility, to his father, who shields him. This can't be a position he, the teen or young person, enjoys. How can Bluewanker help him get back on his feet? The plan they formulate should of course involve all three--father, stepmother and older child.

Bluewanker has to sign up to a plan--though from his manner here I fear he'll want to find 'reasonable' grounds not to do so. I also think (perhaps as a deflection, perhaps because he's at his wits' end and his mind is grinding small), he's written to Dan with a side-issue.

164

@162. venn. I kind-of think Bluewanker's wife is in loco parentis and should act like it. Even if Bluewanker's child is a 25yo intermittently violent drug addict.

It's interesting you disagree with me almost entirely. In the spirit of my finding out your views, rather than necessarily pursuing debate, do you:

1) believe that the tax code should incentivise marriage?;
2) think the law, SCOTUS-down if necessary, should treat gay marriage or 'civil partnership' absolutely equally wrt every entitlement granted with heterosexual marriage?

166

@160 Helenka (also a Canuck): Good morning! We're getting closer to that highly sought after Double Whammy (@169). :)
@161 BiDanFan: That's a relief. I guess I missed your winky face. Actually, I am not chronically diabetic (no cortisone shots or knee surgery required). My initial 2013 Type II diagnosis has reversed, but I'm still watching my sugar / carb intake, and avoiding gluten. :)

167

It's morning and that extra sleep has brought me to a different perspective.

OTHER, it's no wonder you've never had a more exciting lover. After all, you and he are both wartime heroes. The pandemic is the war.

So, it's no wonder you're experiencing so much - being needed for your skills and devotion, on top of feeling desired by a colleague. In a time of war, what's a few pounds?

But, it you were to unravel each layer, removing all the razzle-dazzle of the lush orchestral soundtrack in your mind, you'd be left with a tune played on a rickety old piano. Just think about it. Not so glamorous and dashing.

Dr. Cheat has managed to flim-flam you with a line. He's married? No problem, she's a lesbian most likely. Anyway, they're not having sex. COVID-19 distancing? Also not a problem, as they're not even romantic. So, you can kiss and have sex without feeling fearful. And you do, sneaking it into your working days. After all, Mrs. Dr. can't discourage her brave hero husband from performing his duty. /sarcasm

If you could just look at his situation, you'd see that he cgise (and continues to choose) the status quo, staying married despite lacking justification for being married. But, hey, it sure makes for a good story.

Now back to you, without a man or woman of your own, especially as you are getting older. You feel the lack of someone on whom you can rely especially in an emergency. Where are your family and friends? If you don't have a romantic partner, why haven't you built up the necessary trust to have someone else be your BFF or confidante?

Eventually, the pandemic or war will end. You and he will no longer be the heroes of your own private movie. But you'll be even older and still alone, Time to start writing a new screenplay with your own characters. Someone above suggested therapy. I would second that suggestion on how to take charge of your own life and destiny. We may not always get what we want, bul we should not stop trying.

168

And this week's Double Whammy inner IS.............

169

And this week's Double Whammy Award winner IS.............

170

@169: Griz, by default? If granted, I say WA-HOOOOOOOO!!!---and accept @168's unintended typo (still no red wine in Griz, yet) "Double Whammy Award inner" as the recipient of the double prizes. I now have a happier "inner", with the nasty parts mercifully gone at last. I am now on the lookout for a DVD copy of The Exorcist (1973) with Linda Blair, as poor little Regan McNeal possessed by the Devil. It's gonna be one helluva Regan / Carrie party! :)

171

@157 He pays to jerk off with her panties because he's not suffering and she should get mani- pedis that he pays for to deal with the suffering her 18 month denial of sex has caused her.

This is both one of my favorite comments ever, and the worst assessment of any situation I've ever seen on the internet. Thank you. Truly.

172

fubar @145 - People have different ideas of what is and isn't tolerable in a relationship, and of how long to stick with it. All I can say is that my wife and I love each other very much and we are very good together in a lot of ways. The positives outweigh the negatives for me. Other people might assess it differently if they were in my shoes and I respect that.

CMD @146 - The lack of intimacy isn't a direct reaction or retaliation to something I have done or to a specific incident. We have discussed it and it is really a side effect of her feeling disconnected from me because of the ongoing conflict. Our goal is to restore our full connection; restoring intimacy is a part of that but not the whole thing. As for laundry, neither she nor I go in for silk so that is fine. I find a good rinse in cold water and then straight into the washer does the trick.

Harriet @150-152 - It may seem odd to be totally frank about my masturbation habits and so coy about family dynamics but there it is. Some of the specific details line up with what you and others have speculated; others do not. All of the commentary has still been helpful to me. I will say that there is no threat to anyone's safety. Re this and you @163, there certainly are plans in the making as the situation is not tenable in the long term, even if everyone were getting along just great. Young adults need to learn to be self-sufficient and I want my children, all of them, to be able to support themselves and live independently. We are working on this.

Fichu and curious @153-156 - My wife and I both want to provide a safe and loving environment for our children. Sometimes there is tension in our home and sometimes it does affect them. They are also affected by the stress of the current pandemic; by the time my wife puts into her very demanding job and the stress that has on her; and by many other things. I am not trying to handwave away the very real impact that a broken marriage can have on children, but I think both my wife and I will do what we need to to protect them if and when it becomes necessary.

Helnka @157 - Thanks for the suggestions but we are in a good place financially and we both take time out for self-care as required. And honestly, of the two of us I think it is my psyche that is taking the biggest hits from the lack of intimacy. My wife knows that I desire her while I haven't had the same confidence for a while now.

Bi @161 - Thanks.

Ven @162 - I use "my" and "our" interchangeably with the older children (there are two) depending on context. They are "mine" as I had them with another woman during a previous relationship; they are "ours" as they were part of our household for several years and we are their family.

173

@167: Thanks for pointing out the "life during wartime" sexy aspect of OTHER's relationship. I make a related point: in the civilian world, there is no place more hierarchical than a hospital. She's a nurse, her married lover is a doctor. She's long habituated to occupying the lower-status role to his higher-status role at work, and this has transferred over to their cheating affair. That's another point she should take to her therapist when (as seems most likely) this cheating affair ends and leaves her miserable.

174

@168 & @169: No sooner did I accidentally score this week's Double Whammy, then Griz just hit a lucky lottery ticket for $1,000.00 while out grocery shopping!! Lightning truly CAN strike twice. The lucky numbers game can indeed work wonders, folks---it can happen to you, too (just ask LavaGirl)! :)

Now if we can just eliminate TRUMPVID-19.......

175

@174: That's great, auntie grizelda!

176

Griz@170~ https://www.amazon.com/Exorcist-Ellen-McRae/dp/B00124PXW8/ref=sr_1_2?dchild=1&keywords=The+Exorcist&qid=1597713189&sr=8-2

177

@172. Not to "bright side" you, but the more you write the better I feel about your chances. Good luck.

Also, great avatar.

178

Nice avatar, bluewanker.

179

@174. Griz. Oh, lucky you! Let's hope it signals an upturn in your comfort levels and general happiness post-op!

@172. Bluewanker. I think you have done well, if only by your own lights, not to breach your family's privacy and not to badmouth either your struggling child or your wife. Even so, I think it would in fact be appropriate for you to express your frustrations or vent, if only because you could do so in complete anonymity. (Your counselors, for all we know, could be fellow parents at your younger kids' school, or guests at a barbeque where you socialise). Further, because you're the one coming to us with your issues, you'd naturally be the person in your situation we sympathize with.

Might I ask--why did you ask Dan about the panties, and not about your responsibilities towards your children of different ages, with their different needs? Did you think that your conversations with your wife and counseling sessions were well geared-up, sufficiently geared-up in themselves, to helping you with your bigger problem? Is Dan's specialty to you specifically sex problems? Was the issue of the surreptitious jerking-off very much playing on your mind? Your explanation--that you thought your letter would be chosen if it were shorter and edited to the essentials--seems a bit thin to me, in that, as you must know, Dan often prints long letters.

180

@172 bluewanker: I love your avatar! Nice undies! :)
@175 nocutename: Many thanks. My beloved VW wants to use the winnings on a road trip once I can drive again. Hopefully it doesn't all go to taxes and uncovered recent medical expenses.
The assistant manager of the local grocery store is sure I'll hit all 6 on Powerball one day. They'd have to call in the paramedics. :)
@176 DonnyKlicioius: THanks for the link. I was able to order the 1973 director's cut of The Exorcist, starring Linda Blair and Ellen Burstyn at my local video / record store downtown today. When Griz is ready and my OB-GYN gives the green light, let the Regan / Carrie party BEGIN! :)
@179 Harriet_by_the_Bulrushes: Many thanks. This is quite a great start to my week, and will certainly help with finances. Hopefully my pending hospital bills won't be a problem. :)

181

Glad all of y'all like the avatar. My favourite style of panties, to have worn for me or to wear myself.

I appreciate the vote of confidence Ens @177.

Harriet @179, as noted I've been reading Dan for decades. I've seen his advice to those in sexless marriages before and have been applying it to my own situation. I've assessed the "price of admission," which in a long-term relationship I now think of as a subscription fee. I have considered what I need to "stay sane and stay married." The specific details of my situation are complex and need time and dialogue to get into. While I'd love to use Dan as sounding board for them, the advice column format doesn't lend itself to that.

What it lends itself to is the guilt I was feeling around what I was doing with her panties. Let's face it: sniffing panties and jacking off in them is several steps down the path of a stalker. Maybe it's an overabundance of caution, but as I was working on restoring my relationship with my wife, I didn't want to be violating her at the same time.

182

Dadddy @165, and it's easier for me to imagine a young man getting into trouble with drugs or crime, culminating with needing to move back in with a parent, but this is just as sexist an assumption as you made, therefore it immediately occurred to me that my initial guess might not be accurate.

Congrats on your win, Griz @174! See, the double whammy did bring you luck!

Bluewanker @181, what you are doing has no comparison to stalking. Your wife knows you and has been intimate with you. She literally hands you her underwear in order to wash them. And wash them you do -- you don't stain or damage them in any way. I think your guilt here is misplaced. You're observing the campsite rule with her panties and as many of us have said, it's the least she should be willing to accept to ensure your patience and fidelity. Like I mentioned earlier, she sleeps on sheets you've come on, doesn't she? File this under red herrings and get back to work on the real issues.

183

Griz @174: Congratulations on the luck that naturally comes with scoring the double whammy!

184

Bluewanker, your calm responses and your impulse to respect your family's privacy seem to me to be important parts of good communication. It also seems like wisdom to realize there's no short summary of a situation as complicated as the one you're in that will allow a bunch of peeps on the internet to make correct assessments. I'm impressed with your responses here.

Like Ens @177, I feel pretty good about your chances.

185

M?? Harriet - You may have any fiscal policy you like; I was thinking more about your ideal societal overview.
xxx
Mr Blue - Understood. It just made me wonder how your wife considers AC2 and sibling.
xxx
Ms Grizelda - I hope you have a net plus on lottery tickets now after a good-sized win. You should be able to buy some good claret with it - or do you prefer Burgundy?

186

@182 BiDanFan: It sure did---I'm still reeling from the shock and hyperventilation! :)

@183 fubar: Many thanks. What a double prize! :)

@185 vennominon: Yes--this amazing lottery win puts Griz ahead. The lottery scratch tickets, good folks at my local grocery store, and their equally generous ticket dispenser have been quite providential, indeed. Because of my recent hysterectomy procedure has forbidden any alcohol consumption (largely because of the heavy duty painkillers) until my amazing gynecologist says okay, I am well stocked.with unopened red wine. I have a lovely Argentine Malbec and Cabernet Sauvignon waiting for the joyous occasion to clink wine glasses again .:)

Let's see what this week's Double Hunsky brings the lucky recipient. Tick...tick...tick...

188

@181. Bluewanker. With your remarks about 'staying married and staying sane' and notice that your situation is complex, I'm beginning now to think that you have some other arrangement for meeting your sexual needs--an arrangement you've agreed with your wife, and that doesn't require separate consideration. Whatever the truth of this, every aspect of your shared life--those you've disclosed and those you haven't--will play into your wife's bearing towards you, her receptivity towards any sexual importunity you feel, and to how she parents all your four children.

Your attitude in your replies here strikes me as very 'Midwestern'--endlessly patient, rational and forbearing. Very possibly this is a good way of coping, and a very good way to head off interpersonal conflict. I worry, though, about 'a return of the repressed' and the costs, sometimes, of reasonableness and good humor. If 25% of us labor, at some time in our lives, under mental illness, is the share for 'Midwesterners' markedly less or maybe slightly more? I say this not to cast aspersions on your style of working through your problems--especially insofar as it allows you not to punish others, or to lash out--but just to give you permission, if needed, to express (maybe in a therapeutic setting) your frustration or anger.

189

Harriet @188 - If you are asking if I have permission from my wife to have sex with other people while we work through our issues, the answer is no. I haven't requested a hall pass and as previously stated I don't think this would be the best time to do so. If and when we restore our intimacy there is a good chance that our marriage will see some openness in the future, but that will be because we have a strong connection and not in place of one.

As to my attitude... well, I am seeking advice and wanting to portray myself in the best possible light. So naturally you are seeing the best possible version of me. I am not going to use this forum to vent my impatience, irrationality, and anger. Trust me that I have all of those feelings, and that I have expressed them in appropriate places including in therapy, with friends, and in (deleted) writings.

192

Bluewanker @189

You've stumped me. If we are both supposed to be long-term readers of the column, I must express surprise that you are citing Dan's stay-married-and-stay-sane rule which you should recall is invoked when one of the couple expects to NEVER have sex with their partner again - usually for reasons of chronic illness or condition that causes pain that would make sex impossible.

So, I'm going to move on to this week's new column. Still, I wish you luck and I hope your wife has SOME outlets that help to reduce her stress levels in difficult times.

193

I was really working on not responding to Helenka @192, but I just couldn't hold back. Maybe this is me taking Harriet's advice @188 to express my frustration and anger.

Sorry that I have 'stumped' you, but I am not a problem or puzzle to be solved. I am a complex person in a complex situation and I am here to seek insights, not solutions.

As to the meaning of "stay married and stay sane" I have to disagree. It may be invoked in permanent situations, but that doesn't mean it has no value at other times. There are countless reasons a relationship could be going through a temporary dry spell; there are also situations other than a lack of sex that require a partner to adapt permanently or temporarily to a change in relationship circumstances that has them reconsidering things.

In my case, if I thought the lack of intimacy was going to be permanent I wouldn't be writing to Dan, I'd be talking to a divorce lawyer. I believe there is a way forward, and I am trying to - say it with me - "stay sane and stay married" as I work through a very painful period where I am deeply missing intimacy in my relationship. If I didn't think it was temporary, I wouldn't be trying so fucking hard to stay married.

I note again your concern for my wife and your hope that she is finding ways to take care of herself. I share that concern and I work very hard to help her feel loved, cared for, and to relieve her stress. It is telling that you think I need to be reminded to consider her needs as well as my own. Let me assure you that I do not.


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