Griz?

FIRDT?

Thank you Dan and Dr. Debby Herbenick.
Agreed with LW2 on DISCORD.

Damn. I was hitting refresh long before 5pm yet for some reason didn't get it til just now.. my hat is off to you Griz.

@CHOKED: I really feel for you. There are few situations worse than being on the receiving end of non-consensual choking.
My abusive former spouse believed that he was entitled. After being married nine years too long I finally had to flee for my life. I finally realized that I couldn't help him---I had to save myself.

@Dan the Man & Dr. Debby Herbernick, I fully agree with your sound advice to CHOKED. Be aware, however, that many strangulation victims--particularly those in toxic relationships where there is a history of domestic violence--are likely to face an additional hurdle to their safety. Abusers are prone to react with increased aggression upon their victims leaving or attempting to leave an abusive situation. I fervently hope that CHOKED and all like her have healthy support systems established in the event she has to run, as in---RUN LIKE HELL---and never look back.
There are local women's shelters and health services (i.e.: in Bellingham: YWCA, and Western Washington University offers the assistance of DVSAS for helping those in unsafe circumstances).

@3 jack chandelier: Many thanks. I will gladly accept this week's highly coveted FIRDT honors (WA-HOOOOOOO!!!). And there are more lucky numbers--@69, @100, etc. still available in this week's installment of Savage Love. :)

Obviously we're going to revisit topics over the years here.. Dan has made his position on choking clear in the past: Because there is no way to guarantee it's done safely, it should never be done. Now it's okay with consent ?

@6 jack chandelier: I could never consent to strangulation. That's a deal breaker for me. I'm with Dan the Man on this one: if it can't be done safely, and the risks outweigh any benefits, don't do it. It's like Dan said, there's good reason that many Doms don't engage in choking---it's too dangerous.

More choking? This can't be an accident. And @ 6, am I wrong, or is choking the only consensual sex act regarding which Dan is an absolutist "anti"? Not squicked out, or "not my thing, but you do you," but rather DO NOT DO THIS. I can't think of another example from him.

Choking and breath play are quite safe, but not between strangers, and certainly not without consent and trust. There has to be something of a suspension of disbelief, I think.

When I put my hand over my girlfriend's mouth, she'll take a gasp of air; I hold her tightly for about 20 seconds, then relax. She basically holds her breath until she cannot anymore, and then she turns her face and takes a gasp of air. It gets her off (not least the trust aspect), and there's no danger she's going to suffocate. We've never discussed the mechanics, but it seems to work.

In the same way, throat hugs - pressure applied very carefully and broadly on the sides of her neck, a muscular hand pinning her down - give the impression of strangulation without the risk. She can break away easily. This would be dangerous stuff if it weren't applied lightly, but a guy's gotta be GGG. This stuff is very popular with the submissive women where I live.

If someone wants to experience actual strangulation, run the fuck away. And if you've never discussed it, don't fucking do it.

@9 fubar: Kudos to you and your girlfriend on what sounds like a healthy, rewarding sexual relationship. Trust and mutual consent are key.

Scary stuff from LW, and good response from Dan and doc. My only quibble is the part where she suggests that the young-person choking phenomenon is probably due to porn. I don’t think Big Porn is teaching us to have certain kinks. I think it’s fulfilling a demand. My guess is choking, along with all the other rough stuff, has become popular because a lot of people— particularly a lot of women— are in fact into it. Also, men are probably quick to believe all women are this way, because it feeds into their insecurities about being unmanly it wimpy in bed.
Anyway. Regardless of how guys are learning about it— whether through porn or an ex-girlfriend or just the other boys in school— this is a genuinely scary phenomenon. It would be nice if this stuff were taught in school. I suppose I should share this column with my 15 year old son.

In fact I don’t think choking is that common on porn sites. I am not sure if it’s even allowed on the mainstream ones?

First letter reminds me of a similar one we had here few years ago, a woman wondering why her male lovers start spanking her ass all of a sudden.
The answers were the same as for the current choking question, and I believe they are indeed right in both cases: "Probably porn" and “some people—mostly male people—do it because they think the other person wants or expects it.”

I’m not surprised that trans and enbys seem to be doing better on sex communication. I think those groups are more likely to talk about who they are and what is expected to begin with, and sex is often included in the conversation if relationships turn sexual.

joe @ 11
Please share it with your son and also with your daughter if applicable. The notion that the male in an OS relationship should be the one leading the sexual side of it has confused and hurt men as much as it did women.

Speaking of numbers, I won the Bar-Mitzvah I never had as well as the highly coveted Johan Cruyff.

Congrats on the firdt, Griz!

Ens @8, no, choking someone isn't an accident. I think you meant coincidence? Strangling in anger featured in last week's letter, but this is something different -- this is choking as a kinky move, which indeed has happened to me too. Unfortunately, if you've had few partners, mostly vanilla, then you get a kinky one, it can be easy to think "ah I've learned all these new tricks" and presume future partners will like them as well. Don't make that mistake. As Dan says, being choked with no warning is not sexy at all. ANY rough or kinky sexual act requires verbal consent before you try it out on an unwitting partner, including choking, spanking, face slapping, face fucking, I don't think I have to list them for this crowd. If someone has told you they're submissive and up for being treated roughly, that could be considered verbal consent for a variety of things. If they have not, DO NOT ASSUME. (Exception that if someone chokes you without your consent, that is implicit consent to slap them in the face, kick them in the balls, anything you need to do to get the message across. Jeez, dudes. Some guys love being punched in the balls, but that doesn't mean it's ok to do that without asking.)

Ens @8, scat is another hard no from Dan.

Re signalling non-consent to choking, spanking or other "my last girlfriend (who was a sub) liked that so I assumed you would too and didn't need to be asked" activities, instead of specifying which acts one does not want sprung on them, one could just say "I'm not a submissive so don't even think about it." Once trust is established, if one -is- a submissive they can request what they like.

Followup question for the pros: is choking in porn simulated or actual? Or some of both?

Thank-you, Dan, for your quick admission that your answer to DISCORD was lacking and that the whole commentariat was able to correct you. Thank-you, Rarely Disappointed Reader, for summing up the commentariat's comments so well. We spent over a hundred comments on it. You boiled it down to one paragraph nicely.

Now on to the part of this week's letter I find most interesting. (Getting consent is vital; it's important. It's not so interesting that I can spend a lot of time thinking about it, talking about various angles, etc.) I'm interested in the way sexual practices travel through a population.

Allow me to reminisce. I lost my virginity in the late 1970's when I was a teenager to a guy my age who went down on me very nicely, very sweetly. Before that, I don't think I'd ever heard of oral sex. I know that he was a little more experienced than I but not much. I've often wondered where he learned it from. We both must have gotten our basic sex-ed from parents, books, or from talking to others. Oral sex wasn't included in my education, but it must have been in his somehow. Maybe porn. I don't know. In the years following, I learned that oral sex was pretty standard except with the guys for whom it wasn't, but even they'd heard of it even if they didn't find it appealing. That wasn't the case in my mother's generation-- or it wasn't the case for my mother. (We didn't talk about this at length. The subject came up once. She made a face at the idea. The subject dropped.)

How did the idea and practice of oral sex spread thought the population when it's talked about in private, done one-on-one? (Yeah, I get that sex doesn't have to be one on one, but threesomes and more are the exception, not the rule.)

Now breath play. The idea is traveling through the generation. It wouldn't even have been on a questionnaire in my day because no one would have heard of it. Now apparently not only have people heard of it, they're trying it, doing it. All these guys learned about it through porn? I guess so, but it's still hard for me to believe. It's harder for me to believe because, unlike oral sex, I expect breath play to be something that people don't immediately take to when they're introduced to it.

How did the oral sex meme spread? How is the breath-play meme spreading?

@18 interesting questions. Obviously the internet— not just porn— does allows ideas of any sort to spread faster now, and that’s key for more niche practices. How an act goes from taboo to mainstream is an interesting sociological question though. I know there have been books written about the history of blowjobs. Any blowjob historians out there?
I checked Pornhub, and there are 4000 or so choking videos, which sounds like a lot, but not when you see that there are 140,000 step family videos, and most people aren’t worried about an epidemic of guys trying to bang their step-moms. Sites like Naughty America have a few videos tagged with “choking”, but they are mostly things like “Amber chokes on Chad’s big dick”.
Granted, watching “Amber chokes on Chad’s big dick” is probably not the best place to learn about sexual communication. But I don’t think porn is the real reason guys are assuming girls want to be choked.

I've long heard that choking is too dangerous to do, and I believe it. But what I'm wondering is what actors are doing when they LOOK like they're choking somebody. For example, Zachary Quinto (Spock) choked Chris Pine (Kirk) in the first Star Trek reboot movie.

If not internet porn, then where ? It’s a modern mainstream play, not something I ever encountered as a young woman.
Rather than where it comes from, what does it mean, and why are men wanting to use it, without any hint of asking consent.

@20 Ha, I just assumed that in non-porn acting the choking was simulated whereas for porn acting I thought maybe it wasn’t. Interesting blindspot.

To answer CHOKED: "What should I do with the person who does this?"

Poke him in the eyes. An alternative is to pull your fists together (around your abdomen) then move quickly upward and outward, so that the assailant is no longer holding you. Then spit in his face, and hit him in the head with whatever is handy (a lamp, keys, shoes, or just your fists if that's what you have). I recommend a good self-defense class (there are probably some online).

Of course, after the dude is bloody/blind, and wondering what the fuck you are doing, just say "Oh, I thought you liked that".

It’s not like as children we aren’t all taught no hands etc round necks. And as pointed to, no surprise it is straight men who get choked the least.

The biggest problem I see with breath play in general is that most of us who are seeking thrills are compelled to go further next time. There is no way to know how far is too far until it's too late. The way to avoid going too far is not to start. There are so many other fun things that do not have such a high potential for being lethal.

Strangulation could conceivably be handled with relative safety outside of a sexual encounter. Think about wrestling holds. Of course we wouldn't be here talking about that. The problem is that it is difficult to control one's actions while fucking. Not only is it physically challenging, there is the potential for getting mentally/emotionally so wrapped up that caution goes out the window. One slip and you've done damage. The neck is a very complex part of the body.

Personally I have found that a hand on the neck with little to no pressure can really achieve the desired effect. If you’re not trying to get some sort of head rush out of nearly passing out, and it’s just about restraint or dominance, just the hand placement can do enough on its own.

@27 yes, that seems like the best practical advice for people with this kink. Of course still not something to do unprompted or undiscussed.

My FWB is the only person I've trusted enough to try choking with, and we discussed it at length before and after. Even knowing I wanted it, he asked for explicit consent right before. Not only did I trust him to stop if I wanted to, it was only slight pressure from his hand, I could still breathe, it was just a bit more difficult, and it was only for very short intervals at a time. I get off on the dominance aspect, not the lack of oxygen. Consent, trust, and communication are extremely important

Re: LTR #1 from CHOKED

Just ruminating here...

Perhaps it is not enough anymore to get, in general, verbal consent for sex or sexual encounters. Perhaps we should take a cue from those in the BDSM and other kink communities and exchange hard and soft limit contracts with ALL our partners? Yes, there will be those who refuse to follow or even read what we as sex partners will consent to but some, if not most, might.

I'm curious what exactly is meant by choking here? All the expert advice seems to equate it with breath play (where I guess you really have reduced oxygen) and declare it dangerous. But what seems to be the common move, especially in a no-previous-consent situation, is more of a firm hand on the throat to give the feeling of pressure. I happen to like that very much and it seems pretty common for guys to do it without discussing first - I think a lot of people casually refer to that as choking. If someone actually strangled me I would freak right out - but is that what we're talking about? Or is it the more common simulated version?

Ross@24 you win the comment thread today.

Personally I believe that the mainstreaming of porn - and most particularly it’s availability to very young teens - is largely responsible for the sudden popularity of choking, and I believe it has been for other sexual trends as well. Things that wouldn’t necessarily occur to someone on their own can be extremely stimulating when presented as part of a sexual scene - this isn’t an out there theory, it’s literally how most researchers think fetishes develop. Some act or image gets strongly associated with arousal because it’s THERE, right next to the fucking. Why does one person develop a kink for heels, or smoking, or hands around the neck when another person watching the same scene doesn’t? Well, we don’t know that. But when you have millions of adolescent, pubertal kids watching hardcore porn, some percentage of them are going to end up fixated on one or another aspect. Of course not everyone who chokes someone does it because they have an actual fetish for choking - they may very well think the other person wants it. But why would they think that, if they’d never seen it presented as something exciting and sexy? Occam’s razor, people. Choking is pretty common in mainstream hardcore porn (it’s not just in videos labeled “choking” unfortunately it’s in lots of them). Probably, globally, literally millions of people are jacking off to vids that include choking daily. It’s vastly unsurprising that some percentage of those people would decide to try it out in real life. And, in the gaping vacuum left by our shitty, shitty sexual education in this country, those people have never learned or are too shy to actually talk about it before hand. Easier to get forgiveness than permission, am I right?

I use one of the tumblr clones that everyone moved to to post dirty pictures after the big purge: bdsmlr.com. It's BDSM based so that is skewed but the subs I follow there are more often than not young and straight and a lot of them are into choking porn. I would hope these kink folks would know to get consent by default but there is the occasional 'talking about it ruins it for me' sub. Personally I do pantomime choking now and then, grabbing the throat but not putting much pressure on blood vessels or windpipe and only for a few moments. For some that is an exciting display of dominance, for others that would be a disappointment because they are not actually being oxygen deprived or frightened, and for others it could be a terrifying attack. I would never do it if someone had not expressed an interest, and even then not hard or long.

Facefucking though.. maybe I am spoiled by my wife who is a very submissive cock sucking fan, but I think the idea of a blowjob without thrusting would be a big disappointment. I always hated getting blowjobs, but that was when I thought you had to be polite and not move. I'd ask someone new what they like of course, but that would be hard to go back to.

@18 I'm also interested in how, and how quickly, sexual practices spread. Oral, anal, choking, whatever - at some point in recent history (say the '50s) I believe they were all relatively uncommon (although certainly not unheard of - I once saw a silent porno, shot in the 30s and then dubbed over by a comedian in, I believe, the 50s that was a) very funny and b) in the sex acts depicted very much aligned with modern porn). Now they're more common. The last new kinsey institute report I read, a few years ago, documented a significant increase in the % of women engaging in anal sex with men, for example, but a quick browse of the Kinsey Institute website doesn't seem to show any periodic (annual, once a decade) updates to their research, which is too bad as I suspect that would be the best way to actually document changes in the commonality of sexual behaviors (although it would not address how or why they're changing).

FWIW (not much), I suspect the internet and increasing availability of online porn are increasing both the diversity of sexual behaviors most people engage in and the speed with which those norms change. Or, put differently, are widening the definition of vanilla. It wb nice to have some data going back 50 years or more to see if this was true - if sexual practices are changing more quickly since the internet became common (say late 90s) than they were in the decades before. My experiences are similar to yours - I lost my virginity as a teenager in the late 70s, and although women performing oral on men was definitely well-understood and widely practiced in my set, men doing likewise was considerably less common, and anal amongst OS couples was essentially unheard of.

I strongly fault the guy for pulling non-negotiated, non-consensual choking, and less strongly fault the lw for giving him to understand that 'it was too much', rather than it was not o.k., period. It's not that surprising, if that was her advocacy for herself, that he tried it again.

@ 16. Sorry, I meant it can't be an accident that Dan included two choking/strangling/"throat hug" letters two weeks in a row. And yes, I guess coincidence would be a better word.

@24. Ross. People freeze. It can be just so surprising, so untoward as well as so unwelcome and scary, that it can be hard to respond vigorously in the act. This can be true for men as well as women and NBs, tops as well as bottoms. I don't blame CHOKED for coughing. But she should have said after that she wasn't into it.

@35. RationalHuman. The converse phenomenon also interests me i.e. niche, mostly queer practices like pissplay (in dungeons) not getting mainstreamed into straight sex. Maybe it is but I don't know about it.

Regarding the comments above referring to depiction of choking in media, there was an episode of the Hulu comedy "Ramy" that dealt with it in an interesting way. The title character is an American Muslim who is struggling with dating. He is put off by most American girls for being too sexually assertive, but also eschews Muslim women he meets that are too traditional. He finally finds a woman who he thinks is perfect -- a liberal, modern, assimilated Muslim like he is. They go on a date, start making out in the car, and then she places his hand on her throat and asks him to choke her. He demurs, with a clear tone of judgment in his voice. She then calls him out for engaging in the same sort of stereotyping that others heap on Muslim women. She rightly discerns that Ramy wanted a Muslim woman who was sexually liberated but apparently not TOO liberated. It was a really good episode.

M?? Harriet - It doesn't seem to bring us any good.

As a gay guy watching gay porn, I see choking in studio porn all the time. Not every video, but easily 1 out of 5 includes some amount of choking in it. And, as always in porn, it's not something where they ask for consent, nor give it (except in rare cases of dirty talk where they ask for it). And I can't stand it. I feel like I'm being choked just looking at it, and makes me want to kick the top in the video (because it's always the top who's doing the choking) from here to next year, or more like here to next century. Fortunately I haven't encountered it in person, and if I start to (or if I'm ever lucky enough to do some more porn) I will start telling them in advance, in no uncertain terms, that I will fuck them up if they try to choke me. And if a kick or elbow isn't enough to stop them from trying it again, I know where their balls are, and I know how to make them hurt even worse than being kicked in them.

@16 BiDanFan: Many thanks. Since I scored the FIRDT (and SECNOD) honors this week, all other prizes (i.e.: the Lucky @69 , Big Hunsky @100, etc.) must go to you and other commenters landing on the lucky spots. :)

Interesting @41. I suppose it depends on the studio, but looking at straight porn, I hardly ever run into it.

@29, If the possible payoff is good vs amazing sex, and the risk is freaking out/upsetting your partner...
your SAT scores notwithstanding, I am not buying it.

Do they still have the analogy section?
Undiscussed-Rough-stuff:sex as drinking:operating-heavy-machinery. Might be fine, might even be awesome, might even be likely to be awesome. But selfish and irresponsible to risk it.

Dan wrote that if some dude grabs your throat, immediately tell him to stop.

A possible problem: if you're being choked, you may not be capable of saying no.

What do you do then?

@24 offers possible actions.

What are other ones, such as ones that don't burn bridges so strongly but are still effective?

I do not anticipate needing this information for myself, but for young relatives and other people who could come to me for advice.

I still remember when I first found out, about a decade ago, that breath play is something that people outside of porn actually engage in. These were high school(!) and college students who told me about their participation in it. I was surprised and dismayed. I agree wholeheartedly with Dan on this: it's a hard no.

Breath play and choking are hard limits for me too. Won’t even consider them as a top, no matter how much a bottom is into them.

I used to play with a top who was very skilled in theatre, setting a scene and eliciting emotions. We had fun bottoming for one another and learning eachother’s tricks. Once he wrapped a knotted rope around my neck. It didn’t cut off blood or air at all, but it created a heightened sense of vulnerability. Later he placed his hand over my mouth and nose, fingers spread wide so as not to impede breathing at all. I was startled to observe my body reacting on its own, twisting away even though I knew there was no danger.

Intellectually it was a really interesting experience and I enjoyed the scene. I won’t be doing it again though, and it reinforced to me that breath play — even the sort of breath play theatre we’d done — is edge play. I won’t do it. I’m not surprised that the people who initiate it so casually as if it were standard have never bottomed for it.

+++ +++ +++

RE people with high SAT scores and other very stable geniuses: the problem with being smart is that you can too easily convince yourself with your own arguments. You’re too good at rationalizing. Being smart is not a pass to enjoy dangerous play. If you’re smart you need to work extra-hard to make sure you’re not just engaging in special pleading.

Dadddy @ 45
The main risk associated with safeyism is being labled as a no fun dork, which is far from “selfish.”
I wonder if your “party line these days” is also a reference to those of us who wear masks and maintain distance in public, as opposed to the extremely cool freedom-fighting ignorants who don’t.

Not up for consent then, Mr D? More fun for you without, you say. Right.

DrJones @ 43
“the idea of a blowjob without thrusting would be a big disappointment.”
As lawyers and accountants often say, “It depends.”
For me the level of skill and enthusiasm shown by the giver can be a major turn on, and if they're capable of getting me off all on their own then they certainly deserve a standing ovation.

@ Wow, that escalated quickly.

Thank You Dan, and Dr Herbenick for spotlighting the gross qualities of mainstream porn, and how our children are being taught how to do sex, by the low life lot who churn this rubbish out.

Spoon @27, yes. Discussing it first is still important, because someone putting their hand on your throat without warning is scary regardless of whether they squeeze, but for the person doing the choking, the sight of one's hand on the other's throat, wielding (but not using) that power over them, could be just as hot as the unsafe act of restricting their air supply.

Dadddy @29: "If you got a 1300 or higher on your SATs, it's possible to safely explore this space nonverbally during sex." No, no it's not. Don't tell young men who may be academically smart that the rules of consent don't apply to them. Let me guess, you did well on your SATs? Interpersonal intelligence is different and no, good grades do not give one the power to read minds. Discuss it first, even if you're Einstein. Agree that "hugging" (thanks Fubar!) someone's neck is better than squeezing it, but it can still be scary if unexpected. Of course, as I said upthread, if you have established that your partner is submissive then that is implicit consent to be more dominant, and I agree with your technique. Oh, and men have necks too, you know. But I presume that some groundwork for that sort of thing must be laid before I attempt to "hug" them. Yes, life is too short to ruin sex by not taking two seconds to ask "are you into this?"

SNJ @31, are you alleging that kinksters literally exchange written contracts?? This has not been my experience. My experience, and perhaps this should indeed be adopted by the more vanilla, is that we verbally discuss what we are into before the clothes come off. Once sex has started, it is too late to bring up surprises.

Something @32, please do the rest of the women of the world a favour and the next time a guy does that to you without asking, tell him you dig it but you'd have preferred he ask because it freaks a lot of other women out. Thank you.

Harriet @36, I don't blame the victim at all for not responding "the right way" when caught off guard. In fact, I credit her for defusing a situation where the most common reactions would have been either to not react at all -- to freeze -- or to freak out entirely. And for using that experience to react better the next time it happened.
https://www.healthline.com/health/mental-health/fight-flight-freeze

Ens @37, I knew what you meant and disagree. Dan runs the letters he gets, I don't think he was trying to prove a point by alleging a link between breath play and abuse.

Harriet @38, funny how Ross's comment did not come across as victim blaming but yours did.

Athari @41, interesting, thanks for your perspective. I don't watch porn so I've been reluctant to jump on the "it's because they see it in porn!" bandwagon, logical as that simple explanation may be. I hope you and your (I'm stereotyping) superior communication skills when compared to hets keep you safe from tops who'd choke you without your consent.

Music @44, in my experience if it is not possible to speak or move when someone has just placed their hand on your throat, they are literally trying to kill you, which I hope is an infinitesimal percentage of the times men choke women during sex. It is possible to say "Stop!" or to wriggle away and then say "Stop," again unless you've unwittingly pulled Ted Bundy, in which case yikes. Sadly women have been socialised to be polite in every situation, and in sexual situations in particular we have this bizarre instinct that we must somehow express our wishes without ruining the sex. (Dadddy, please bear this in mind when considering how successful your non-verbal approach really is.) So we try to get our message across subtly but effectively in the first instance. And yeah, then we are surprised when we have sent what we considered a clear message and the guy tries the thing again, meaning our options are now to ruin the sex by being more explicit or to go along with what he's doing. Sadly, many of us take the second route, too often, due to socialisation plus being turned on. (It's not just for him; WE don't want the sex to end!) And then the guy thinks we were okay with what he did, and then he does it to the next gal. It's embarrassing writing it out, but yeah, women need to recognise this pattern and fix it. Just because most of US would immediately stop a thing that didn't get an enthusiastic reaction doesn't mean we can expect men to behave that way, and we need to learn that much sooner than we do.

Dadddy @45, I would much rather selfishly be certain my partner is enjoying themself than assume it.

Lava @48, so you're in agreement with Dadddy then.
https://www.thestranger.com/savage-love/2020/08/25/44351650/savage-love/comments/63

Fichu @18 "How did the idea and practice of oral sex spread thought the population when it's talked about in private, done one-on-one?"

My uneducated guess would be that it is something that more or less follows naturally from the already given practices of mouth-to-mouth contact (kissing) and genital-to-genital contact (fucking). If mouth can touch mouth and genital can touch genital, why not touch genital with mouth?

Never been so happy to be out of the dating/hookup pool.

Re popularity of oral sex or at least blowjobs: it probably is spread through porn and then through other media. Blowjobs were very common knowledge in the 70s, remember Deep Throat? It was something from a movie before it was the name of a confidential source. There were also some attempts at sexual education in those days, some more titillating than others. I think I learned about cunnilingus from “Our Bodies, Ourselves,” and various oral sex techniques from either “The Sensuous Women” or “The Joy of Sex.” All before I’ve ever seen an actual adult penis.
I’ve been out of the scene for so long now that I never encountered the choking thing. The spanking thing was rampant 10 years ago though, even appearing as a sexy dance move in mainstream sitcoms. It is troublesome how much porn and how little education there is. Thanks, Dan, for doing your part.
For the record, most people do not enjoy being choked or being spanked. There is certainly a significant minority who might, but it’s incumbent on a top to ask before doing anything that (depending on context) qualifies as assault.

Squidgie @55: "it’s incumbent on a top to ask before doing anything that (depending on context) qualifies as assault."

GOLD STAR! 100% this and now you have put it that way, I hope the people who don't think asking is important can see exactly why it is.

As for oral sex, I had a very sheltered childhood and learned about cunnilingus when someone went down on me. I'm guessing that before books or porn, this is how the practice spread. I'm going with a fifty-fifty split on porn versus "my last partner liked it," since many, if not (hopefully) most, watchers of porn do realise most of it is not garden variety sex acts typical people do at home.

"I would be very up front about it from the get-go," said Dr. Herbenick. "When you're first talking with someone or moving things forward, say something like, 'I'm not into choking, so don't try it,' or, 'Whatever you do, don't choke me.'

I know Herbenick's heart is in the right place, but this is terrible advice. You're getting to know someone. Things are proceeding to the bedroom, so you mention a sexual practice that your partner might never even have heard of and could be shocked by. You mention it in passing with no emotion attached to it. I wouldn't blame the sexual partner for being puzzled and maybe thinking "why would she bring that up? Does she mean she likes the idea? Shoot, I want to get laid, but now I'm confused."

Much better to say what you DO want. If you get into what you don't, it could be a long list. Just when things should be upbeat and exciting, you're bringing up the subject of what you hate. Instead, you might say "I don't know what you're into, but just vanilla until we know each other better." Then you can say in positive terms whether vanilla means PIV, oral, or whatever to you.

The main problem with saying "no choking" front and center is that it assumes that the other person is into it when they likely aren't and would be insulted by the accusation that they are.

Although I feel like this argument is a loser because I can't think of specific examples, this definitely finds its way into sex scenes in movies and TV as well. I am with Daddy here, I have found that a hand placed on the throat (but with little to no pressure applied) can serve as a satisfying experience for both partners. I think that I naively assumed that this was what people generally were referring to when they were talking about choking. If we are talking about actually stopping someone from from being able to breathe than that is an entirely different animal. I am wondering if people are seeing the former and assuming it is the latter (and perhaps emulating it). I have a watched a large amount of porn and I don't recall seeing actual choking outside of the "humiliation" genre.

CHOKED - What to do? Choke him back? Well, we might accidentally kill him. And mimicking cruelty is really the worst sort of self advocacy, but I guess it's better than nothing. Let him see that we're hurt/scared/offended? A guy who is dumb and mean enough to start choking his lover without talking about it is likely to use our vulnerabilities against us, but it's better than nothing, and we can hopefully kick him out of our lives quickly if he was more mean than dumb. And if he was just dumb, and responded apologetically, it helps cure his ignorance, and helps his future lovers, and he might even show enough care to make us feel safe again. Isn't choking the one sort of assault that's automatically a felony? (I just checked and that's common for states, but not universal)

RDR - Although I also wish that Dan had been more blunt that DISCORD was in an abusive relationship, I don't believe that the three A's, abuse, addiction, and adultery, mean that divorce is the best choice. I believe they are serious problems that need to be addressed very seriously, though. I am in disagreement with Dan that abuse, addiction or adultery can help solve marital problems, they are the least ideal coping mechanisms, although they are better than suicide I guess. Lots of people try to justify all three, but I think they are serious problems and it's unhealthy if they are not being seriously addressed. And they have healthy versions, when abuse is consensual (bdsm), when addiction isn't causing problems (temporary medical addictions or mild addictions like daily tv-watching for a couple hours), when adultery is consensual (agreed nonmonogamy), that are in edgier relationships, but I wouldn't call this unhealthy or even abnormal.

Wow, now intelligence is such the most wonderful thing ever that it will let you read minds too and make verbal consent obsolete. Just forget about all the autistic geniuses out there, right? (Alison's observation was interesting, I think that this superstitious pride in intelligence may be its biggest flaw, some intelligent people can even get angry at those with less intelligence! Like it impedes emotional stability or something.)

Fichu - "The main problem with saying "no choking" front and center is that it assumes that the other person is into it when they likely aren't and would be insulted by the accusation that they are."
It depends if we are interpreting our partner's desires and limits as a reaction to ourselves, if we're taking them personally, or as a self-description. Sometimes we talk about sex play as a reaction, because we are trying to get our partner off, but it's usually because we are horny and want to do it. Likewise, sometimes we talk about our limits as a reaction because our partner is doing something scary and we think they might pass our limit, but it's usually just because we have been burned and are making sure it doesn't happen again.

I like the display of dominance and pretend-menace that we both get when my partner lightly places his hand on my neck/throat, particularly if he's also holding me down somehow, but the concept of dominance is more than enough; I don't need or want the actual loss or even the believable loss of the ability to breathe.*

I'm really torn about the consent issue as it applies to me, personally, in the moment. I came of age before explicit or affirmative consent was a commonly-discussed concept. While I 100% agree with it and the need for it and the rightness of it, I still have extremely fond associations/memories of sex acts that weren't obtained consent for in advance. I find a lot of sexual communication takes place non-verbally, and as long as a partner and I are in sync, I've been able to tell what he wants or intends by a gentle movement in a particular direction.

I think I was raised with the cultural message (in heteroland) that wimps asked if they could kiss you, whereas real men just took you passionately into their arms, or, more commonly, the two of you faced each other and you both felt the kiss was imminent, and you just came together more or less spontaneously. You know; you've seen movies. The idea that I could be turned on by someone asking, "may I kiss you?" was anathema to me. Then I thought about how sexy it can be for someone to tell you what they want to do, and I thought I could probably do the consent dance that way, with someone saying, "I really want to kiss you now," and that allows the person to either say something like, "I want you to," or "no, I really don't want that." But it's hard for me to imagine that realistically and sexily incorporating that dynamic into every part of a sexual encounter. Of course, all of that is dependent on how established a sexual relationship already is.

In other words, I sort of prefer Dadddy's method personally, even though I don't defend it the way he does. I think that everyone has the right to want whatever degree of safety or respect for their bodily autonomy they need or prefer without us trying to suggest that more evolved people don't need to follow the rules. But I've had a lot of sex with a lot of near-strangers, and I've very rarely had a problem with implied consent. I know that makes me lucky, rather than smart.

Ironically, I was sexually assaulted once when someone announced his intention (which could be construed as my example of obtaining consent via statement as opposed to question). He told me what he wanted to do; I said I didn't want to do it; he told me he didn't "give a shit" what I wanted, and raped me anally. It was actually a very scary moment, because he was a total stranger, whom I knew nothing about, and I realized that no one knew where I was (and this was before cellphones, so no one could have found me, if they'd wanted to check up on me). The fact that he made his utter indifference to my needs for comfort or safety crystal clear was frightening.

I can't imagine having the flow of sex interrupted by having my partner say to me something like, "I really want to put my hand on your throat lightly so as to imply that I could choke you if I wanted to in a display of dominance. Is that okay?" I can, however, imagine someone saying that to me well in advance. Like, long before we ever have sex, in a flirty, sexy conversation about what we each like. That would give me the opportunity to say either, "oh, I like that, too," and feel a thrill of anticipation, or, "I'm really not into that, and I'd rather you didn't do it." That is the way it could work /for me./

In the absence of knowing your partner's preferences, let alone their past, which may include trauma, I think the only advice we can or should give is to always ask explicitly beforehand and to make sure to get enthusiastic, affirmative consent (I give a workshop to first-year college students on affirmative consent and I always say, "which would you rather get: a "yeah, I guess so" or "okay," or "FUCK YEAH!!" Which would be more fun? Which would let you know that your partner actually wants what you want? Which answer suggests a fully engaged, active, eager participant? Wouldn't you want to wake up the next day not not wonder if maybe you did something the other person didn't really want you to do? Isn't it worth it?").

But I hate to rule out nuance and body language.

*I actually have more of an issue with a deep-throat face fucking, because then it really is hard to breathe and even though I know I can push myself off and take in a gulp of air, there's a moment, especially if I'm trying to be a good blowjob-giver/face-fuckee and not push off too frequently, where I really do start to feel a rising panic about being able to breathe. However, none of the men I've ever been with have ever prevented me from pulling away in order to get air, so I know I'm not really in any danger.

Now see, that never happened to me or dude would be unconscious on the floor and I would be gone.

Like SavageMarquis, I wonder how much actual choking or true breath-play is going on both in porn and in real life. I never watch porn, so I don't know how realistic the choking looks, but it's easy to imagine that someone sees what looks like real choking/strangulation when it's just a light hand on a throat, and then tries to do it the real way.

If young people are truly thinking that many others want to have their air supply cut off, it is incumbent on society to correct that misinformation, as well as to educate about how dangerous really strangling someone (even lightly) is. This can be done through PSAs and disclaimers in porn and also in those books that parents like to give their kids, and through folks like Dan who can differentiate between pretend-choking and the real thing.

I also agree with Dadddy about the under-appreciated erogenous zone the neck/ear area represents.

@52. Actually, you don't know what I meant because what you said I meant is not what I meant. But no matter. Carry on.

vab251 @26: "it is difficult to control one's actions while fucking". You might want to get that under control before engaging in partnered sex.

Those like nocute and her special beau Mr D.. think the neck a play area.. and couples like that will find each other. Consent is still required. Don’t touch necks without it.

@40. venn. But there isn't a queer or originally gay sexual practice, if we're talking about forms of group sex or sex in public, that I don't enjoy more with ciswomen in the room. But I get the sense it's hard to recruit them.

(To be clear, I'm not talking about the mainstreaming of one-on-one sexual practices like anal penetration, which arguably have a greater attraction for men than for women. The diffusion of practices like this seems to lead to situations like that described in the letter, where different assumptions about the normality or commonness of an act play out with its being sprung unpleasantly on someone--someone from the group that practised it less than the niche or sub-group).

Fact of the matter is that lots of people enjoy the suspense, mystery and even slight danger of not knowing what's coming next in a sexual encounter. Such a path can be navigated respectfully with a gradual approach, attunement to body language, and mutual trust.

LW1, swift knee to the balls if a man tries it on again. Then a good pounding to his head, so he thinks twice before trying it again, with another young woman, before getting consent.
Looks like, given the ‘smart moves’ mainstream porn decides will increase performance in bed, young men who know little of real sex, need re educating.
Checklist before bed is not that sexy, pissing the bed because some kid is clueless and suddenly grabs a girl’s neck, and freaks the bejesus out of her, is much less sexy.
Sad for young women, though if that’s how it is now, adaption is only way.
Perhaps have small printed pages containing the checklist of no gos, in one’s handbag, and if the night looks like bed is clearly an option, hand the new prospective lover a copy, as one heads to the bathroom. He reads it by himself, and no discussion is needed, which could break the mood.
If he questions one’s checklist, say thanks for the evening, but I’ll be on my way.

If you can’t free your knees, LW1, pour the glass of water, by the bed, over his head. The sudden shock will release his hands, once that’s done, start the re education. Must we women do all the work.

@36. Bi. I didn't blame the lw for not responding the right way when caught off guard. No one could reasonably fault her for not responding 'correctly' in the moment. You misread my comment. In fact the moment of my remark to Ross was that people, when surprised, cannot be expected to have the presence of mind to rehearse their jiujitsu practice.

What I gave less than 10/10 to was the lw saying to her partner afterwards that the choking was 'too much', not that she didn't enjoy it, didn't enjoy choking. The phrase 'too much' can be taken to mean 'too intense', 'too much an overload of otherwise pleasurable sensation' e.g. 'touching my clit / glans at that point was too much'. This was not at all what she meant--but it seems it was what her lover understood, because he did it again.

I want women to have the confidence to say 'I hated it when you did that'. To say 'I don't like it', 'I know that you might like it, but I hate it', 'it's a hard no for me'. Not to be socialised to defer to men, so that their aim is to stop a man from doing the thing they hate and fear, but without hurting his feelings. Or thinking that any reasonable person they're with will e.g. leave them, pull away from them, be less committed to them, cheat on them, because one of the things the guy likes in bed is a strong 'no' for the woman.

Imv there hasn't been enough of this rejection of female socialised deference on this thread. Besides the usual canvassing of who does and who doesn't feel something for breathplay, there's been the desire not to intrude with moralities upon anyone's kink. Well and good. But let's say to people, 'have the self-belief to set out your boundaries'.

@57. Fichu. I don't think Dr Herbenick's advice so bad (to set out your 'noes' before sex).

The reason for this is partly that different people have different ideas about what counts as vanilla--so that saying 'only vanilla' could give incomplete guidance. (An example of vanilla-or-not could be something like slapping your partner's ass, or asking it for it to be smacked. I've been shocked and bemused the first time this request was construed as inviting my assault or humiliation--as one might expect, with a younger partner). A second reason in favor of having guidelines get specified in terms of noes, rather than yesses, is how, during hot sex, people spontaneously move to something that's good for them, and which they think is good for their partner--but it crosses their partner's boundary. If the boundary can be stated in advance, the spontaneous lover can do something else, something more mutual, spontaneously. The up-front prohibitions, that is, don't really cramp their style.

Simple safety prop, glass of water, set by the bed.
Then if he tries any one of the “ smart moves”, that some sleaze bag in his debased mental state churning out porn vids, making money.. believes those slaggy bitches, women, need played on them... a glass of water over the head will shock him.
One then has time to either get up to leave, couple pummels to the head, few words one hopes might get thru..a few options that water can give.
Checklist up front is safest, trust intuition he won’t suddenly turn, and bob’s your uncle.

Donny, above. One point I’m confused about re your story. Was it a priest writing it, getting a blow job from the nun. Or did the nun burst into the confessional, and do the man giving confession to the priest?

@69 LavaGirl: WA-HOOOOOOO!!!!! Congratulations on scoring this week's delectable Lucky @69 Award honors, and happy springtime Down Under. :)
@69 LavaGirl: Incidentally, my physical method of self defense upon my ex-husband's last unauthorized strangulation attempt was met with a direct karate kick to his head (he had me lying flat on our bed while choking me). This certainly didn't kill him, but knocked the wind out of him, nonetheless. That, the support of my parents, family, friends---and a good divorce lawyer---finally made him think.

Grizelda darling, I’m so sorry you went thru those horrible experiences. Good on you defending.
Self defence classes, free for all girls/ women.
I find it abhorrent choking is seen by impressionable young people as something to mess with. Michael Hutchinson and others found out the hard way it can be deadly.
Thanks.. though talking of priests and blow jobs, I’m happy to pass the prize on this week. I count myself lucky, none of them tried anything on with me.

I was going to comment on Dan's bad advice but he corrected.

If a man I didn't know well put his hand around my throat during sex it would terrify me. Freeze up from fear? We are all taught to do what a stronger person threatening violence says to do. Do this or I'll spank you, hands up or I'll shoot, gimme all your money or take a beating. It's only play when you know it's play. A man I don't know well has his hands around my throat, we're alone, I have not shown I likerough sex, how do I know he's playing? It's really happening, his hands really around my neck. It ruins the mood to wonder is he stupid or is he trying to scare me. People can show with body language they're into stuff, I'd still caution against it doing something without any talk with new partners, part of BDSM is how people feel afterwards, don't increase the chance for bad feelings. Be spontaneous all the next times. What do test scores in highschool have to do with it. Most people are vanilla.

Oral sex was always popular and common. Just taboo for some people. The hooker does it not the good girl. My nana said GIs learned it from loose french girls in ww2. Always something other girls did, or taboo because its what boys do. Sodomy used to mean fellatio too, there were laws against it. Priests said NO! because you can't make babies that way, Kama Sutra said it's disrespectful to your wife but fine for your mistress. Sex Revolution eased taboos, not popularize a rare act. Yes porn played a role too, remember the woman with the clit in her throat?

Interesting to hear some submissive females are into choking, either real or simulated. As a submissive male, it never occurred to me as being something erotic. Although I don’t socialize with other male submissives, I have visited various femdom websites and read femdom and cuckolding stories, I haven’t noticed any mention of women erotically choking men. This may be do to the fact that choking is more associated with being physically over powered than say spanking is.
On the other hand, I don’t watch porn (I consider sex acts to be more about the tactile than the visual), so what do I know. Searching “femdom choking”, I found the following video access website :

https://hardstrangling.com/

Warning: could be NSFW, depending on where you work, but mostly if you’re like me, not pleasant viewing.

Personally, I don't care for choking per se (or even the facsimile thereof), but I do like a forearm pressed down across my clavicle. A light hand on the neck can be nice. I do enjoy air, though. Face sideways, hand pressing on my cheekbone, can do a similar thing (for me) dominance-wise, without the risk of injury.

Like nocute, I enjoy face-fucking except when it starts to truly affect my air-intake, and then it can be a bit scary, depending on the position.

I certainly know/knew plenty of hyper-smart people whose intelligence was quite lop-sided, and whom I would not trust to read nonverbal cues well. I dare say they're rampant in STEM fields. But for my own sake, I try not to have sex with those people; or, were I going to, I'd be much more verbal about my desires and hard lines.

All this stuff goes both ways. I 100% agree with Harriet @71 that in addition to the PSAs to men that women don't always say what they mean/want, we should be actively encouraging women to express both desires and dislikes verbally, and to stop worrying about hurting someone's feelings. Yes, we're socialized that way. Men are also socialized. It behooves all of us to shift towards a better middle ground.

As for safteyism: On the surface it seems pretty good. Why not be careful, right? But keep in mind that pretty much since the advent of TV (maybe even radio?) the media of the world has been playing constantly on our fears; it's good for ratings. (We on the left are fast to point out how FOX does this to old folks on the right; but don't think the media you consume isn't doing it to you, too--that would be a pretty classic example of the phenomenon previously stated about how smart people think they understand things when they don't.) Most people are pretty shit at evaluating risk anyway, and humans in general tend to overcompensate for potential negative effects. That's before you add in the media.

So yeah, be cautious, but don't go too crazy with the cheese-wiz.

Ens.Pulver @64: the comment from BDF @52 seems to be in reply to what you said @37, which was a clarification to your comment @8 about accidents, which was misunderstood by BDF @16.

BDF disagrees that Dan is orchestrating a series of letters to prove a point, which you say cannot be a coincidence. He doesn't seem to do that. It's more likely a continuation of a topic that generated some interest.

Also, a hard no for Dan isn't a hard no for everyone. He's an advice columnist; not sex Jesus.

subhubby @79: sounds like you are into service, as opposed to being physically overwhelmed and "taken". Most of the subby women I've met are into the latter: bondage, restraints, loss of control, often with a good helping of service There are many aspects to the dynamic.

Griz @74: From time to time, you've mentioned the tortures you've endured. All I can say is FFS.

Harriet @71 & ciods @80: Women have been socialized to defer to men, and men have been socialized to flounder around trying to figure out how to be in control.

BDSM at its best solves all of that. Everyone should sign up at Fetlife and learn to communicate, communicate, and over-communicate about Safe, Sane and Consensual sex.

Please use the link below, so that I get my toaster.

nocute @ 61
I’m all for spontaneity myself, especially the mutual one as described on the 4th line of the third paragraph, “the two of you faced each other and you both felt the kiss was imminent.”
I think such nuanced communication is still possible in the heat of the moment including D/s dynamics.
As I see it the first lines on that paragraph assert what Daddy has been saying all along, that a male in an OS relationship asking questions and discussing moves and limits must be a loser, which is why I think such attitude is also harming and confusing men.
(And while I have no doubt you’re not endorsing any of it, I believe this is why “grab them by the pussies” and masks are for sissies come from the white house, and a young woman writing to a sex columnist re someone placing his hands around her neck without attempting to explain what he has in mind and negotiate consent.)

If you like implied contact on your neck you can initiate it yourself by taking your partner’s hand before sex while sitting on the couch and place it on your neck while also hinting the desired firmness. (Maybe also reciprocate by letting them take your hand and place it where they want to be touched.)
If you like being spanked and called names, something I’ve been incorporating in my own acts in the past few years, you can step into the bedroom wearing something sexy, or none at all, lean against a dresser and shaking your ass, self-slap once, then turn around look them in the eye and ask if they think that slut needs to be spanked. I would also add something like, “do what you think is right, I’ll raise my left hand if it gets too rough.”

M?? Harriet - Thank you for acknowledging we're on completely different teams. Enjoy yours to the fullest.
xxx
Ms Cute - Dare I hope that there are multiple sections of that course? Not to demean your capability, but some things really ought to come from one's own tribe.

https://www.theguardian.com/tv-and-radio/2020/sep/10/actor-diana-rigg-dies-aged-82

Diana Rigg z”l will be remembered as one of my first TV crushes, always projecting intelligence, sophistication, courage, and kindness, combined with moves and subtle beauty assuring there’s plenty to explore.

@Mr. Ven: alas, only the one section, mandatory for all first-years. It's a very small school, and there probably wouldn't be enough out gay students to fill a section just for them. It's far from perfect, but I do--or did--what I can. I agree that there would be better people to impart the lesson to the students, but this was what we had.

In regards to porn, I like videos but I love stories. Also a nerd. As such I have read a lot of erotic literature and fanfiction, both of which are overwhelmingly written by and for women.

If you think modern porn videos are too extreme, violent, degrading and hardcore you should absolutely avoid the stuff women are writing for themselves. It makes mainstream porn look positively PG-13.

The more I see these discussions about choking specifically, the more I think there are very different things being discussed. Hell, maybe these young guys are misunderstanding the choking involved too. Everything I have seen outside of explicit BDSM scenes is very much not a risk of strangulation at all unless there is an extreme age disparity. Most of the choking I have seen doesn't involve actually removing the ability to breathe - as judging by the gasping and panting going on. I haven't gone for full breath play either because the lighter "choking" being described above works for my wife and I'm not comfortable going much harder than that.

In my previous post, I provided a link to a website that I thought showed that there’s a video for everything. The real lesson here is don’t get your sex education from porn. Some of the acts shown could be incredibly dangerous if not done very carefully. I probably should have shown a different website, but it at least provides an example of the bad stuff out there.

I have to say that my sexual relationships play out much more like the way Dadddy describes, and beyond the rape (which had nothing to do with throats or necks or dirty talk or anything else we've spoken about) I already mentioned, I have never had a miscommunication problem--and I'm a pretty big slut, so I'm working with a large sample size.

But I understand that clarity is better than surprise for many people and in regards to many sexual things, so I'm not going to denigrate the need to get affirmative consent. It's just not how I prefer to conduct my own encounters, as a rule.

@84: CMD, I appreciate your thought process, but two things:

1) The kind of person that would "grab them by the pussy" despite receiving no encouragement whatsoever is pretty easy to spot, long before the clothes come off--and I can't imagine that I would find myself in a sexual situation with a Trump-type. Unless we're talking full-on, out-of-the-blue sexual assault, in which case, none of this is relevant.

2) The advice you offered ("If you like implied contact on your neck you can initiate it yourself by taking your partner’s hand before sex while sitting on the couch and place it on your neck while also hinting the desired firmness. (Maybe also reciprocate by letting them take your hand and place it where they want to be touched.)
If you like being spanked and called names, something I’ve been incorporating in my own acts in the past few years, you can step into the bedroom wearing something sexy, or none at all, lean against a dresser and shaking your ass, self-slap once, then turn around look them in the eye and ask if they think that slut needs to be spanked. I would also add something like, “do what you think is right, I’ll raise my left hand if it gets too rough.”) . . . well, I could never see myself doing anything like any of that. At all.

But my problem has generally been that a lot of the men I come into contact with don't want to put their hands (gently) on my throat. They don't want to give off a whiff of menace. They don't understand why I'd want to be treated "so badly."

@75 LavaGirl: For me, it was a life-saving pleasant surprise to find that I have that much strength in my legs. Yes---self defense is vital when it becomes necessary.

@83 fubar: FFS? As in TMI? I'm happy for you that your breath play / choking has been healthy for you and your GF, fubar. My ex, on the other hand was abusive, insanely jealous, and had a serious anger problem stemming from three generations of ugliness. I don't see that in you at all from what you have posted and shared. I have mentioned what I have experienced only when I have felt it has been a relevant part of the SL comment thread(s).

Lately I have been experiencing nasty upper back pain (in the "bra line region"). It hurts whether I wear a bra or not. I'm seeing a doctor tomorrow. Meanwhile, I'm back to physical therapy concerning small the tear in my right shoulder cuff. I was healing so nicely after my surgery. And now it just feels like I'm falling apart.

It's kind of funny: I didn't experience someone putting his hand (lightly) on my throat until about 15 years ago or so, and when I did, it was like a lightbulb went off over my head or a switch was turned on. It's such a little, and benign act (as I've experienced it), but the implications are what turn me on so greatly. And then I heard the phrase "breath play," and I knew immediately how dangerous that is. Or "autoerotic asphyxiation," which sounds as scary as it is (anything with "asphyxiation" sounds dangerous and scary and in fact is)--and neither of those phrases ever seemed to relate to what I enjoy--which is the suggestion, the implication, of dominance.

So I can understand intellectually how scary it would be to have someone cut off one's airway or even threaten to cut off one's airway, but I never have felt the least bit threatened by those acts, probably because they were clearly (to me) pretend acts of danger.

Even though I have had a lot of sex with a lot of people, I typically (maybe ever since the rape I mentioned above) get to know the person, or at least get a sense of him. I may not know enough about him to know if I could live with him or want to raise children together or co-mingle finances, but I don't knowingly fuck someone I don't feel some sort of connection with, and that connection extends to the ability to communicate, at least about sex.

BTW, I do think the popularity of this, plus spanking, comes from the ubiquity of it in porn.

Auntie Grizelda, I hope you feel better soon, that you find out the source of the pain and come up with a treatment plan.

Daddy, you ask what part of the scenario you described in @29 is risky... I am sure you understand this. The risk is that you aren’t reading your new partner as well as you thought, and while you are enjoying yourself, she is literally fearing for her life.

I don’t know your social life, but if you do this with 20 new partners, then, even if you are very perceptive, you will probably be wrong once. So then you have to weigh the 19 hot times (or maybe 20 for you), against the one partner’s traumatic experience. Hard to compare the two, but since you are not the one bearing the risk, surely caution is in order.

I get where you are coming from... I am a believer in non-verbal sexual communication, especially among regular partners, and there are some contexts where the risk of misunderstanding is vanishingly small. Back to the drinking and driving analogy, I don’t necessarily judge people who have drunk a small amount and feel they are safe to drive. They really might know themselves well enough, and if they get home safely, I am happy to give the benefit of the doubt that they knew what they were doing. But there damn well better not be an accident. And— even if there are contexts where I personally wouldn’t judge— “don’t drink and drive unless you feel confident it’s ok” is not helpful advice for the world.

nocute @ 91
If on the spot negotiations and assessments work for you that’s fine. My point was that women should also feel empowered/take chances, express their desires, and initiate. Leaving the stage entirely to men may come with occasional choking hazards and a very white white house destined to ensure the rule of white men. It is a cultural observation, and by no means a suggestion you’re supporting it in any way.

I share Dadddy’s excitement in his context-enhanced post @ 87: “Verbal communication is important and often necessary, and I love it when a [person] tells me what [they’re] into.”
I come from the other side and still find it hot.
For me some of the more memorable moments in European and US produced 60’s 70’s and 80’s movies and TV shows were those seduction scenes, where I often perceived the initiating women to be in control. Usually I also liked their attire, more than often very much so, and ever-inspired to recreate some of those scenes while being on either side of it.

Finally, I share your frustration re finding compatible partner/s outside the fetlife circle. I would turn into a a switch in a heartbeat knowing my desires will be equally accommodated, though admittedly it is very possible that being born and raised male I can relatively easy find myself on the dominant side, something that cis women often struggle with.

Fichu @57, I agree that could be jarring without context. But context could be easy to provide; in a pre-bedroom conversation, bring up previous bad sexual experiences and mention the asshole you dated who choked you without even asking. Or indeed you could be more general and say "no rough stuff until we know each other better."

Savage @58, you may be right. It doesn't really matter though when the issue is the person has not asked first. An unexpected hand round one's throat is a scary shock whether they apply pressure or not. (In my case there was no pressure; I can only imagine how much more terrifying it would be if there had been.) In the requisite conversation establishing consent, the partners can discuss whether they are into simulated choking, light squeezing, or literally having their air flow cut off -- and if it's the latter, a wise person will opt out.

Nocute @61, perhaps it is time for a new era of romance movies where the hero seductively asks the heroine if he can kiss her and she breathily says, "Yes." Doesn't that sound sexy to you? I agree with you, in the past I have had great experiences where we were just in sync -- though this applies to vanilla acts rather than kinky ones. Anything kinky needs to be discussed, as you say, in advance. But I have also had the experience of trying something the person was not in fact into (and vice versa), as well as that of being in bed, getting to a pause in the sex, and one person saying "hey would you like to try X?" The latter, more in the context of an established relationship though. I agree that sometimes it is possible to intuit by the look in a person's eyes that they want to be kissed, and by the way they're kissing you that they want things to progress from there. But again, the kinkier/less universal the act, the higher the bar for explicit verbal consent.

Ens @64, point of admin, please include both the number and username of the post you're replying to. Secondly hello, I did in fact know what you meant and you confirmed that my word choice was better than yours? I just disagreed with you. No need to get stroppy, that's unlike you. Carrying on now.

Harriet @71: "This was not at all what she meant--but it seems it was what her lover understood, because he did it again." I read this as the second time was a different guy, which is why she is asking about a trend, rather than one clueless twunt. You and I agree that women should be less worried about hurting men's feelings and more about getting their points across, which she did effectively with the second guy.

Dadddy @77: "The overconfidence you describe is more common among dumb people." Please think about this comment in the context of your other comment. Overconfidence is you all over, and what have you just said that says about you? The problem with your attitude is that pretty much EVERY guy thinks he's so clever, so tuned in, so suave that the rules of consent don't apply to him. This is why we have such a widespread sexual assault problem. This is one reason the conviction rate is so low: a man takes the stand and says I didn't rape her, she consented, and the jury believes him because he believes himself! No, the rules don't apply to all men but you. Get over yourself.

Sub @79, I've had some male/male-bodied sub partners who were into being choked. It is an easy add to cowgirl position to turn vanilla sex kinky. Like Happy @89, I keep it very light.

Fubar @81, thanks for the support (and the helpful example of how to use reference numbers!).

CMD @85: "If you like implied contact on your neck you can initiate it yourself by taking your partner’s hand before sex while sitting on the couch and place it on your neck while also hinting the desired firmness." A great way to non-verbally communicate consent.

Nocute @91, I'm not into the sort of men anyone would describe as alpha, but I've had a few display surprising and un-discussed dominant tendencies once the clothes came off. You cannot always spot them by the way they look.
Your problem is simple incompatibility, just as mine was with the aforementioned partners I encountered. You'd probably have been delighted to discover they wanted to hold you down or pull your hair or spank you. I was not. Is a discovery like this the end of the world? I presume you and I both soldiered through the sex as best we could, trying to make the best of it; both parties were somewhat disappointed with the experience, and we didn't see each other again. So long as enough communication was employed to avoid injury or psychological trauma. (Which was not the case in one of these encounters, but that's a different story.)

Re verbal consent, my experience in the past is like Nocute's. Neither society nor I myself prioritised verbal consent in the 90s and 00s. Most of the times I or my partners tried things they went over well, but sometimes they did not. The things that went over well would still have gone over well if we'd asked first. But the things that did not go over well could have been avoided. As for Dadddy's ex who turned out to like things she thought she wouldn't, I had a kinky partner whom I met about a decade ago, when I was not very experienced with BDSM. Like any good kinkster we had discussions and I said I was into A and B but not into C, D or E. Over the course of our four and a half years as playmates enough trust developed that not only did I warm to the idea of trying C, D and E, I learned that I enjoyed them. That would not have happened if he'd sprung things on me; instead, I'd have balked and not seen him again. And as for the minority of people who think being asked kills the mood, are you really going to let that particular flavour of crazy ruin consent for the rest of us? Better to "ruin" sex for them by asking than to ruin it for others by not asking. People who don't like to communicate should take it upon themselves to request that partners default to not asking, and state their safeword, rather than perpetuate this silly notion that talking about sex isn't sexy.

Griz @92: FFS as in that's horrible; ghastly. Sorry that happened to you, or happens to anyone.

@99 BiDanFan, well said. Daddy, I am ready to step out of the conversation. I agree with you that the better you know a person, the less likely they will think you are about to murder them. I was imagining more of a random hookup scenario. But even if no one is fearing for their life, an unwanted hand to the neck can be deeply unpleasant. As you say, there is a sexiness to unpredictability, but only within certain bounds. Making sure you agree on the bounds is a matter of basic consideration and manners. And, echoing BiDanFan, if you find the nonverbal negotiation of these boundaries erotic, there is no reason why verbal negotiation can’t be equally so.

Dadddy, The points you tried to argue this week were very flawed logically. Arguing against clear communication and safety, these are things that usually benefit people. Are you feeling ok?

@Dadddy, You often imply that you've tested as high IQ. And that you think that a high IQ means that people have good romantic skills, and that you have good romantic skills. Why do you believe this? You've said you are divorced, you seem to only speak negatively about your ex wife. Do you maintain a mutually pleasurable relationship with anyone you've previously dated?

You do say you can meet new women easily. But is it more skillful to make a good first impression or to maintain a loving relationship? A good first impression is very important in order to maintain your sex life only if you can't maintain it with existing partner(s) well.. People do pass on and can divorce you so it's somewhat important always.. The ability to maintain a loving relationship is very important if you vow to do it, in my opinion. I think promises and agreements are really important. I guess it depends if you want a marriage or solo poly.

You seem to have good romantic skills for a solo poly, and a high IQ (I'm not sure why you usually agree to monogamy?). Still, it does not follow that another person who tests as high IQ also has good pick up skills, even. What creates your seeming overconfidence that "overconfidence .. is more common among dumb people"?

"safetyism comes with its own risks, and it's just as selfish.
The anxiety underlying safteyism is a contagion, and it's already a health crisis."
The only problem is telling other people how they should be safe (and it's worse to tell them to throw caution to the wind). That's rightfully disputed at the moment. However there's nothing wrong with pointing out risks when discussing areas of concern, it's actually beneficial and right. And I always try to respect people's boundaries of safety for themselves, because that is the decent healthy right thing to do, because it's wrong to hurt others' sense of safety. (Although when they've already crossed my boundaries and I'm feeling unsafe it can be hard).

"Why not just ask up front? Because the spontaneity and unpredictability can turn good sex into amazing sex, and our time on this earth is short."
"The risk is that you aren’t reading your new partner as well as you thought, and while you are enjoying yourself, she is literally fearing for her life."
"Oh my. That sounds horrible for everyone involved. I'm sorry people experience this. Try as I might, however, I just can't fit this into my world. Maybe you're mistaking me for a young guy picking up strangers in a bar?"
What is giving you this seeming overconfidence that you knew what your partners were thinking, when your romantic relationships seem to end often and badly? Thoughtlessly dismissing risk is not smart.

"And I like to remain vague about my own proclivities to screen out women who might feign enthusiasm just to secure a relationship with me (e.g., my ex-wife)."
Why do you think you're good at maintaining romantic partnerships, or understanding how your partners think and feel? The secretiveness sounds dangerous, and the way you describe your ex-wife sounds paranoid and maybe vicious, I'm sure your wife married you because she thought y'all could be happy together, like everyone does. And she probably thought she loved you just as much as you thought you loved her. It's not easy to maintain a loving relationship, it takes some skill, and I don't think high IQ helps any more than it helps us shoot hoops well.

I suppose I should have specified that I would never immediately put my hand on a woman's throat. I am monogamous now, so it is a non-issue, but in the past this would present a hand on the shoulder and fingers brushing the side of the neck. If that were received well, then perhaps a gradual move towards the neck would take place (and never during a first encounter). Any discomfort or distaste on a woman's face would immediately end this, of course, but more often than not a woman would simply brush my hand away and that would be the answer. I am not saying that a consent conversation would not have been more appropriate (I have been with my now wife for quite some time so the experiences I am talking about were more than a decade ago).

I hate to put it this bluntly, but I have been on the receiving end of more than one "be a/the man" conversations when it appeared that I was overly cautious about pushing boundaries in that time, so I just started the gradual creep maneuver I think we are all probably familiar with. I'm not saying it is/was the correct method, I was just trying to find a scenario that worked for everyone. I think if I found myself to be single again I like to think I would have a hard boundary conversation well in advance of sex taking place.

@96 Daddy, I understand the context from which you speak but it made me smile. I had a conversation years ago with a longtime partner about breath play... when I expressed distaste at the idea, he said, "Just let me show you." I agreed. He closed off my air flow for something less than 30 seconds. I held my breath and submitted without struggling. We maintained full, intense eye contact the entire time. When he released me, he smiled and said "See? You liked that." And I had to tell him that no, I'd indulged him but it did absolutely nothing for me. We'd been together for at least five years at that point, and in general our read of each other was very good; I assume he interpreted his excitement and my acquiescence as being the same. His interest in most activities was dependent on them turning on his partner, so it never came up again. No harm, no foul... but it was one of the few moments in a long and successful relationship that he managed to substantially misread me. I'm not questioning your interpretation of your experiences, I wasn't there. But you did remind me of his moment of misplaced confidence.