subhubby @100,

Men flaking is the new stereotype.

The way I understand things, it goes like this:
• Man is horny.
• Man goes to computer to boost his horn with pictures of attractive people/ stories of interesting kinks. Sometimes it’s porn, sometimes it’s a dating site. This time it’s a dating site.
• Browsing through profiles, man is inspired to send out the occasional hopeful message.
• Man is surprised to get a response, chats happily, masturbates, loses interest as soon as horn is gone.

+++ +++ +++
I’m an old fogey, but rumour has it that the young folks are starting to have in-person sex later than they used to because they start out with online sex which is soooo much easier. Online sex becomes the default for many.

Result: the guys into in-person sex meet someone into in-person sex and get off the internet. The guys happy with online sex... stay on the internet. Where you find them.

13/13 doesn’t sound unusual to me at all.

Allison Cummins@101

Thanks for explaining something that seemed so mystifying to me. I dated pre internet. Interesting to see how much social interaction is online now (like what we’re doing now), and the effects it has- some subtle and some profound.

Alison @ 101
Interesting to see how things are shifting. In my younger days masturbation was much maligned, often appearing in demeaning terms equating it with time-wasting, useless activities. The real thing was all that mattered and mutual or solo masturbation while your partner is watching wasn’t common at all. (Possibly also classified as semi-kinky back then, and not always well-received.)

I would point out though that the popularity of online sex in forms ranging from erotic chat, pic exchange, to whatever, is also on the rise with the older population.
Online sex seems like an extension of our many other online interactions nowadays, as subhubby @ 102 also points out.

Congratulations subhubby, on scoring the big Hunsky.

LavaGirl

Thanks for filling in for Griz while she’s away. It’s nice to be recognized. I’ll try remain humble and not let the award go to my head.

Phi @82-@84: You're correct that socialisation comes from many sources, not just parents. Sure, parents socialise children to look both ways before they cross the street, to share, etc, but they are also leading by example. If kids are told to share but see Mommy and Daddy slamming the door on charity collectors, for instance, they are going to unlearn the lesson "share" quickly enough. Kids are also socialised by schools, advertising, church, anyone who is older and seen to have authority. Church, for instance, may socialise children to believe that any form of sexual expression outside of marriage is shameful, including masturbation. So when they hit puberty they feel they are bad people for having these shameful thoughts. And yes, pop culture socialises people in socially accepted gender norms. Men are always trying to get laid, women should play hard to get, we all know them. Like the Christian child who masturbates, people who break these norms often feel a sense of guilt that they are not behaving the way they "should."
And often the people who are participating in this socialisation process do not themselves realise that it may be doing more harm than good.

"And prostitution is different from casual sex, because you probably won't even know their full name let alone where they live or other contact information for child support."
Lots of hookups happen without knowing someone's full name, let alone their address.

"I wouldn't take the risk of a condom breaking with a complete stranger. You can."
I can and have, though not one I paid. I am, however, on the pill. Just sensible when you have sex with men, provided you don't suffer unfortunate side effects.

"We will just have to agree to disagree about how often women want very extended sex vs a few minutes of fun and an orgasm, I don't think it's really been studied." I don't think it's binary. I was speaking in general terms, and said that fewer women than men want a quickie. I think we all have enough anecdotal evidence to support that claim.

"But if you are planning on keeping a baby if there's an accident, it really helps to know the real name and address of the guy, so they can choose to help parent or at least pay child support." If you are planning on keeping a baby if there's an accident, you'd be a shitty person to hire a sex worker and not use backup birth control. You should at the very least inform ANYONE of that philosophy before having sex with them, so they can decide whether to risk parenthood in the event of a broken condom. But condoms are 96% effective in preventing pregnancy, so I don't think this would be a huge issue if male sex workers for female customers were to become common. I also expect much of the market for this would be post menopausal.

Gamebird @85, I'm sorry about your experience. I think Alison @101 is right, in the age of interent everything these guys just want a more interactive wank, they don't want to follow through. What about picking guys up in bars? I am with you tbh, cash does seem a lower price to pay than all the bullshit we have to go through. Again, it's not accurate to state women don't pay for sex. We absolutely do, one way or the other.

Venn @95, don't be disingenuous. No one would be annoyed by your typing out "let me barf" or naming the book your cryptically surnamed references come from.

CMD @103, good point, I agree that with internet porn and the mainstreaming of sex toy sites, masturbation has lost a lot of its stigma. This seems good for STIs and in general but not good for when you want an actual hookup.

BDF @106: I'm pretty sure LMB is the initialism of "lick my balls". Perhaps a glossary is needed after all.

BDF @ 107
I'm still baffled as to why so many choose to forego the real thing when they have an opportunity, as you and others tell us.
I can understand onliners-only who may already be in a committed relationship and opt to maintain their anonymity while engaging with others while for the sake of extra excitement, I conversed with some myself, but being young and single and still opting the screen? The times they are a changin’.

True, true, Fan @106, women do pay for sex one way or the other. That’s why the stigma around sex work baffles me. It is a clear transaction.

@14 BiDanFan: Many thanks! Heads turned while my beloved Love Beetle and I were on San Juan Island. What is a road trip, however, without a little adventure? We drove out to State Route 20 on Thursday, pouring rain and wind--to discover that ---!!!!----the motor to my VW's left windshield wiper had gone out, making driving visibility dangerous. And we had to get to the Anacortes Ferry Terminal. We made it with time to spare, and once we were on the westbound ferry to Friday Harbor, the weather cleared up. We instinctively knew of a car repair shop next door to our vacation spot, and new wipers were ordered. Unfortunately, this didn't solve theh problem with the left wiper, and nobody on the island could do the mechanical work. I did rech one of my local mechanics on the mainland, however. My Beetle and I will go in tomorrow to have the replacement motor & parts ordered and the repairs done. Hooray for sunny weather, and a late summer!

@69 Philophile: WA-HOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!! Congratulations on scoring this week's Lucky @69 Award honors! Bask in the glorious decadence found only here in Savage Love Land. :)
@100 subhubby: WA-HOOOOOOOOOO!!!!! Major congrats on scoring this week's highly sought after Big Hunsky Award honors! Savor the glory and good fortune! :)

@Alison, nice to see you posting! And appreciate hearing about Andrew Garza's experiences.

Gamebird @85 - I agree. These days (if not for COVID) I'd rather pay a professional to give me a solid scene than try to luck into a date with compatible desires and relevant skills.

Fubar @108, I can't picture prissy Venn making reference to balls even in initialised format. It turns out I was nearly correct:
https://www.thestranger.com/savage-love/2016/07/20/24358578/savage-love/comments/108
Sorry, Venn. People's memories are not in fact as effective as you believe they should be.

CMD @109: I can. Drama, STIs, pregnancy. Not to mention the cost of dating. Forgive the TMI, but didn't you opt for cam sessions instead of "the real thing" even in the before times? In my older age, when I see an attractive younger person I conclude they wouldn't be worth the drama and put them into the wank bank instead. Everyone has photos online these days, whereas back in the 80s and 90s we would need to retain memories of someone we found hot. It seems the younger generations are ahead of us in this respect as well as so many others.

Griz @111, welcome back! You've reminded me of a VW I had in the 90s with a similar problem. It was fine as long as it didn't rain. I remember a short trip, having to periodically lean out the window with newspaper and wipe the screen off. Can't do that with the internet, ha ha. Glad you had a good time!

@95. venn. But you know what I mean, re male and female musical taste? More men than women are music nerds; and this leads to their having niche tastes, and having to maintain that obscure and esoteric offerings, perhaps not the best music made by certain artists, in these niches is better, worthier or more interesting, than widely-known music in genres or categories in which they have no specialist knowledge or peculiar investment. Women, by contrast, are less often nerds or specialists, and find it easier to say they like the music they spontaneously like. The men (on average or more often) over-intellectualise, traducing their actual reactions or preventing themselves from listening intelligently.

Some rough form of this gendered distinctions holds good for me both across low / high cultures, and across characteristic gay / straight musical tastes. For instance, it's obvious that the best Strauss opera is Der Rosenkavalier, but more gay men try to argue otherwise than gay women. It's not unlike other gay men's adherence to flagging or increasingly uninspired pop starlets--notwithstanding the snobbery of opera fans (gay and straight ... though maybe esp. gay).

Actually I see strong parallels with sex.

None of your acronyms, I'd hazard, are public knowledge.

@101. Alison Cummins. Surely 13/13 is more likely for Fetlife than Tinder? More people on Tinder will want to have in-person sex?

@106. Bi. I think there are women who don't want a relationship 'right now' because it's too much hassle, who also don't want a hookup because they fear it'll be too much hassle, too. If it were easier, if it stood to be less hassle, perhaps more women would be up for casual? I don't disagree about how more men than women are up for it as things are.

M?? Harriet - I told you that the generality I'd allow is that men were more likely than women to devote leisure time to learning technicalities and becoming wonks. I could further venture that the composition of that group is likely to be made up from those who are insecure about their own tastes and who therefore leave male non-wonks in a state of superiour taste overall. If you are making a serious assault on the Tilney Rule, then you shall tempt me to convey upon you a Troilus Award, which I have just devised, and which Ms Cute and many others will guess before being told is for pandering, as those of us of an age to have been taught Shakespeare (I rather doubt the missing Ms Muse was given much taste of him unless she sought him out for herself) will recall that Pandarus appeared and plied his ways in Troilus and Cressida.

As I know nothing of Strauss, I can only report some quick search findings with contradicting results, one in favour of your assertion choosing only DR from Strauss for a top twenty list, and another couple placing it behind Elektra and Salome. To bring it into a more comprehensible realm, I know very few people who would be anywhere nearly so categorical about whether Miss Austen's greatest novel would be Emma or Persuasion. I'll give you credit, though, if you have genuinely compiled a statistically significant sample size of non-straight women who regularly attend opera.

BDF @ 113
I'm still very much in favor of in-person encounters and would draw a distinction between extra curricular activities which could be challenging to implement in real life due to interest, geography, market positioning, etc.
What baffles me is learning that young people looking for sex and manage to find suitable, willing partners forgo the encounter in favor of thinking "what if."

@118 venn's a savage love treasure. doesn't mess with anyone, does their own thing, easy to identify and skip if it isn't your thing.

@113 BiDanFan: Many thanks! The weather this week is gorgeous---so wonderful to still have some sunny days before my beloved Love Beetle returns to fall / winter hibernation. I'm glad to have my VW at my local mechanics' shop now getting the end-of-summer once over. Although my SuperBeetle convertible mechanically abhors driving in rain, it's still good to take care of all the automotive needs and weather conditions. And we're both perfectly quirky for each other. He's put up with this certified Bug nut for almost 47 years now. :)

@116. venn. I think lots of lesbians are opera fans. You think very few are? It's characteristically crystal that a Troilus award has nothing to do with troilism ;) I was making no assault at all on the Tilney Rule.