Firdt!

Wow, due to time zones, I'm not usually firdt. In fact, I think this may be the firdt time I'm firdt.

Re SHUTUPP, I was thinking the same thing Dan was: that forcing this creep to get a new number would just enable him to harass his victim using a new number. What about calling the police? Let them dish out any retribution that may be due.

Good on YFTQM for knowing that his ex was in fact just making excuses, and not blaming Dan's advice. But, this shows a down side to the frequent advice to cheat. Not that she needed an excuse, obviously. I hope Mouse gets as clean a divorce as possible with no further money paid out to this CPOS.

Re LW2: An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth only leaves the whole world blind and toothless.

Congrats on the firdt, BiDanFan!

@PRISON: There's absolutely nothing wrong, blaming, or damaging in telling your boyfriend that you don't want neither to be in a sexless relationship, nor in a relationship that's so difficult, at only thirty years old.

@SHUTUPP: Don't be a hero. Your friend has handled it fine. Leave it at that. You want to impress your friend? Acknowledge that she dealt with it.

@ YFTQM: Your ex has landed herself a special prize: An unethical Dom. You need do nothing but let that trainwreck play itself out, and take care of yourself.

in my experience, when you are in an unhappy, sexless relationship like PRISONS, you’re not the only one who is unhappy. The boyfriend’s trouble “getting it up” could be a reflection of his unhappiness, and his saying “people aren't attracted to me” could be either a low self esteem problem or a face-saving way of saying, “Yeah, dude, I’m not attracted to you so much anymore lately either.” Unless you’re up for (and he agrees to) a big round of therapy/counseling, do both of you a favor and gently end it. Looks like this passion play has had its run.

LW2, SHUTUPP, you can post his number on public boards like Craigslist as selling something in high demand at slightly less than going rates. A nice set of dumbbells for $1.5 a pound. Oddly enough that's a high demand item these days. Don't do it from your phone or home though, try Starbucks. There's a bunch of other sites for posting for sale items that don't involve illegal activities.

PRISONS, since everything else is good and pandemic, talk to him about it. But not after bad sex. Unlike Dan, I didn’t read your boyfriend as “too insecure about his own attractiveness.” It seems he correctly identified your diminishing attractiveness to him / interest in the type of sex he’s offering and it affected his dick. Try sex that isn’t oral or anal. Watch porn together until the vaccine. My man and I have tickets for Hump! Greatest Hits vol. 2. You and your man should, too. Definitely break up with him if you can’t be happy without anal and don’t feel bad about it. Just basic sexual incompatibility and that’s the reason you give him. Assure him you’ve always enjoyed oral with him, but you need anal.

PRISONS-- Dan missed the standard advice to see a medical doctor for what could likely be a medical problem.

Overweight + has trouble getting an erection + libido/desire has taken a dive = SEE A DOCTOR!

Or tell your boyfriend to see a doctor. Sure it could be entirely psychological, but SEE A DOCTOR! Start with "Boyfriend, I love you and want to see this relationship work, but there's something wrong at the moment, as you know. I've researched these doctors and would like to take you to this one." Continue from there.

SHUTUPP -- Obscene phone calls, threatening phone calls, harassing phone calls used to be illegal. Are they no longer? I'm not saying she'll get great results, but at least notify law enforcement. She might feel better.

YFTQM - Am I missing something? Your lawyer told you to pay her bills? If so, new lawyer. If not, you're divorced and have no obligations to her. If she tries to play some weird logic game saying that Dan told her you're not allowed to be angry, get a new advice columnist. Tell her Dear Abby said you're allowed to be as angry as you want.

What steps do you take?
One. Sad music.
Two. Begin dating again.

C1 strikes me as an MM version of the Hortons. At least Mr Savage stops short of the point of view that a man who doesn't feel attractive should be shamed (unless there's a carom off BF1's being too insecure for an open relationship). Spa days are not the answer either; Ms Fichu seems close to on target. I'd also ask how good BF1's therapist is.

And even an insecure BF1 may have a creative relationship idea. Anyway, mostly good on LW1 for treating his partner kindly, even if erring on that side.

@PRISONS
"“I'm sorry it's because I think people aren't attracted to me.”"

It would have been worth telling us whether you had a reply to what statement, and if so how the conversation went. Not doing so makes me wonder how well you handled it.

@YFTQM
As the time you'll be ready for another relationship approaches, ask yourself why you chose to marry an

"ex...[who] is a piece of shit"

The answer might be worth some therapy for you.

No offense, my ex-wife was, er, badly messed up too. It was extremely helpful for me to go to therapy to grow not to be someone to not choose that again.

A2 seemed basically spot on. While it's unfortunate that A3 had to be mostly clarification, it mainly reminds me of the episode of Cheers in which Sam and the male patrons invent a personal-ad beau to correspond with Carla. When it goes wrong, they wonder why they didn't see it coming, to which Diane remarks, "This from the group that every year doesn't see winter coming."

The Quiet Mouse was married for ten years to a woman he (he?) now calls a piece of shit. This does not seem either quiet or mousy. It seems hurt, angry and still raw. I'd like to hear his ex's side of the story.

He asks for advice. Get back from your ex the money you spent on bills while you were not living in your house, then move on.

PRISONS does not find his bf sexually attractive. He probably finds him unsexily fat. When his bf said (to the effect), 'no one finds me attractive', he appears to have said nothing. (That is, I think the same thing as curious @12). The sex he was getting from this relationship was never exactly what he wanted (he wanted to top his lover anally). He wants to break up--and should break up; his concern about not hurting his bf is no reason not to initiate a split. Who pursued whom is also irrelevant.

He should do this as honestly as is consistent with kindness and tact. They like each other and are compatible in other ways, so sticking the dismount might save the friendship. The bf, it seems, needs help with his self-esteem, body image, perhaps weight, and possibly needs all-round counselling. Breaking up might be the trigger for him to go out and get this.

Beware the temptation of the White Knight Savior Complex, especially the macho internet kind. Be sure you are actually trying to help, and not just showing off what a badass you are as long as you can do it without risk of getting caught yourself.

I'm also pretty sure the FBI has an office in Phoenix. But Friend would need to have documented the harassment for that option. Maybe she did? (Doesn't sound like it, tho.)

Oh, and please do not call up that which you cannot put back down.

Zinaida @7, PRISONS literally says that his boyfriend claimed "it's because I think people aren't attracted to me." Not "because I think you aren't attracted to me." He also says "he's very self-conscious about his weight." Has Mr PRISONS put on weight in the pandemic, and is that making him feel unsexy? (This is happening with one of my partners; it's a real thing.) This relationship seems to be following the pattern of two-thirds good times, one-third bad times until one or both partners realise the good times aren't coming back and ends it. Mr PRISONS is seeing a therapist, but what about a personal trainer? Is he addressing his weight and trying to get into better shape, which would boost his confidence and libido? Whether they stay together, PRISONS could try gently steering him towards getting fitter. If he does want to break up, he could cite the nonexistent sex life and just say that the passion is over and the relationship has run its course.

Fichu @10: "YFTQM - Am I missing something? Your lawyer told you to pay her bills?" You're not missing that, the letter is. He doesn't mention a lawyer. He said he paid her bills after moving out, and that reconciliation was being discussed. He's not, in fact, divorced -- yet. He needs to contact a lawyer -- I bet he did just after writing Dan -- and take it from there.

Curious @12, I bet she wasn't a piece of shit when he married her, or at least, hadn't shown herself to be one. 20/20 hindsight is always excellent, but hardly useful when one is looking forward. But yes, he could ask himself if there were red flags he missed.

Harriet @14, mice can't get angry? He was quiet and mousy about her demands, in hopes they'd reconcile, and now he knows the truth he's angry. I doubt he has much hope of getting any money back, but if he can prove she cheated, hopefully he won't need to give her any more.

Harriet @15, my guess is that his reply was to reassure the boyfriend he finds him attractive. Who wouldn't have said that to someone they love, whether it were true or not? (Also, PRISONS says his boyfriend is already in therapy.)

PRISONS's letter is basically the age old, "How can I break up with someone without hurting their feelings?" The answer is that you can't. Being dumped always hurts. Even if you were about to dump someone, their getting there first will at minimum hurt your pride. PRISONS, accept that this will be a painful process for your boyfriend, but less pain than both of you being in an unhappy, sexless relationship for the next however many years of your young lives. Be as kind as possible and let him take the lead on whether he wants you to move out, whether he wants to stay friends or take a break and not see you at all. Remember that while you can't avoid this being painful for him, he will get over it. There is someone else out there that's a better match for him. If his heart weren't in it, would you want him to stay out of pity? I doubt that's what he wants. So be kind but firm. His getting over it is his responsibility. Good luck.

Sorry, PRISONS didn't say that they live together. If they don't, that will make the break easier.

@19. Bi. Well, I have never seen an angry mouse. I think mice get frightened, not angry. But we're getting sidetracked.

The Quiet Mouse's apparently just cause for complaint is that his wife was a hypocrite, enjoining him to singledom while starting a new relationship herself (and, secondly, that she exploited his belief they'd get back together financially). He is disgusted and outraged by other facts about her that aren't in fact disgusting, e.g. that her new Dom partner is old enough to be her father. So? During their marriage, quite possibly, she could not explore that side of her sexuality, thus she's gone for someone reassuringly experienced. If we guess the ages are something like 32 (she was married ten years and cohabited) and 50, there is nothing out of the way in the partnership.

I wonder what's going on with her offer now of a poly relationship. The Quiet Mouse thinks it's a bluff, and that she's trying to do something like pin responsibility for their break-up on him. With their also having been more than once on the verge of reconciliation during their trial separation (maybe), I'm not so sure. I can believe she's still attached to him and would like him in her life, probably as a sexual secondary. Of course he doesn't have to accept this.

He doesn't say why his ex moved for the separation. In one way, this speaks well of him; he understands all her piece-of-shit-like behavior originates after the break-up. In another, he could be concealing something of moment. The story would read differently if she broke up because she wanted more exciting sex, and he refused to make the effort. It does seem she's citing Dan's words about cheating and maybe making something of PUD opportunistically, as retrospective justification of shitty actions. However, she may think she has acted honorably, and she reads or listens to at least some Savage Love. Perhaps she will read Dan's characterisation of her, shrug and just come to a fair settlement of the one year of bills.

Usually when men (mice or men) stew in gender-themed resentment, they're self-deceiving and entitled; and I wouldn't be surprised if that were true in this case.

Omg, it’s a letter about a heavy breather! Haven’t heard of that, which used to be common, in about 40 years. Since caller ID and phone answering machines became common. On the scale of male predation/creepiness that women were expected to deal with on a regular basis, it was a lesser offense. Easier to ignore than flashers, mashers, wolves, etc. Often someone calling numbers at random and then starting his masturbatory routine when a female voice answered the phone.

It was sometimes a stalker and not a random call. In that case, it could be useful to get the authorities involved. Stalkers can be dangerous so follow standard advice on those, keep copies of messages but don’t read or listen. Guard your safety.

Other parts of this story strike me as odd. Why does this woman answer her phone from unknown callers? Who does that anymore? (Maybe she’s job searching or something?) why do you think an area code means the person is in that area? If you know who this person is, and he seems to be a credible threat, why not report him? And lastly, for petty revenge, just place an ad for something embarrassing but popular with his phone number. Elementary. But wouldn’t that just give him access to more potential victims? What is the goal here? Protect your friend or answer harassment with harassment?

Harriet @21, blaming the victim? That's a new low for you. How is his resentment "gender based"? This person he married lived off his largesse for a year while seeing someone else, which she specifically said neither of them should do; started this relationship with this someone else prior to their separating, aka, cheated; spoke of reconciliation while hiding this ongoing other partner, whose living expenses Mouse may or may not also have been paying [1]; then when confronted, claimed she was doing it because Dan Savage said it could save her marriage. Insert any genders there and you would have just as much just cause for anger. What evidence do you have that Mouse is "self-deceiving and entitled"? He's entitled to honesty, and he didn't get it. And now you go off on one of your famous flight of fancy, claiming that he refused to indulge her kinks thereby driving her into the arms of this Dom. As Carolyn Hax would say, wow.

As with any letter, we can only assume Mouse is telling the truth, and his letter seems plausible so I see no reason to accuse him of lying. Mrs Mouse cheated, accepted an arrangement where Mouse paid all her bills, carried on seeing someone else after promising -- and extracting a promise from Mouse -- not to, then made a too-late offer of ENM. That's a DTMFA.

[1] There's some confusion here over whether the Dom moved into the marital home. Mouse refers to their "shacking up" but said they were doing so "before the separation," which makes me think he just misspoke and meant "hooking up." If Dom, who is presumably financially secure and perhaps that's how his age is relevant, has also been living rent free on Mouse's dime, I hope Mouse gets a good lawyer indeed and sues HER for alimony.

PRISONS- “ It’s over because we clearly aren’t attracted to each other”
Excellent catch. PRISONS will be less offensive if he dumps his bf because he’s made his needs clear and his bf doesn’t seem to want the same thing.. he may be able to convince his bf to build a hot oral sex life together, but if he wants a hot anal sex life, he should try to find someone who really likes that sort of sex. He seems bitter about missing anal, but he’s missing anal because he chose to focus on this guy who doesn’t like anal.. so blame and bitterness make zero sense here.. apologizing for not realizing how big of a deal anal was for himself sounds more honest and sympathetic here. And he seems angry and impatient that bf doesn’t get boners for him anymore, rather than worried or sad about the lack of attraction, he comes across as entitled. Rather than huffily storming off or treating his bf as damaged, he could try breaking up because he’s tried to get his needs met but his bf seems to want different things.. And I believe it’s appropriate to try counseling if a partner is in counseling, in general, so I think it looks negligent that PRISONS doesn’t claim to be in counseling about these issues also.. like he is so focused on bf’s perceived flaws that he can’t notice his own mistakes..

“ An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth only leaves the whole world blind and toothless.”
+1

Mouse- If the genders had been switched, I would suspect that your spouse was the man who wrote to Dan this summer about being dissatisfied by the infrequent and unenthusiastic marital sex. Dan did advise that man to cheat, and further advised him not to suggest opening the relationship first, or even waiting for the sex to completely stop first, on the grounds of the older ages and maybe long length of marriage. I thought that advice was bad because this is the sort of possible result, you have a lot of reason to call your spouse a piece of shit and argue for more money while you’re divorcing her, if your state allows “fault” based divorce. And maybe Dan did help your wife get stuck with negative labels, in a vulnerable legal position.

Dan- Please stop advising people to cheat if they grow unsatisfied with their marital sex. At least be consistent that everyone has to ask for an open relationship first. Even if you only advised people to cheat after the marriage had become sexless, that would help the people who followed your advice look a lot less rude or evil and possibly lose less money in divorce court. It was brave of you to publish Mouse’s letter, I hope you grow from it.

Mouse- Feeling angry is fine. Taking out your anger on her, except through your lawyer and divorce court, is not. You want to avoid calling her profanity or letting your anger make you mean so it’s easier to live with yourself later, and instead focus on the events that made you angry, what you’d like to change, then decide if you want to try to solve your marital problems or divorce. To try to solve, if I felt like I guess you do, I’d demand that my spouse stop seeing anyone else.. That they be honest about what they need sexually to do that, and let me decide if I am willing to do what they need. I’d probably try to demand what I needed to stay together, and if my spouse said no.. well, I’d probably argue until/unless they divorced me and probably also date others in the meantime.. but filing for divorce on grounds of adultery seems reasonable too. Just try not to get mean and spend y’all’s savings on lawyers and hurt yourself just to hurt her.. And counseling, just because you’re going through a major life trial.

Why did lw #1 use quotes around the phrase "getting it up?"
Why did lw #3 use quotes around the word "Dom?"

Do these writers not believe these two things? Do they not believe in the reality or existence of these two things?

@23. Bi. The last sentence is a generalisation about male anger, which I said may or may not be true in this case.

Resentment at women 'saying one thing and doing another' is very much a gender-themed trope. Finding that 'life is complicated', or at times thinking one thing (that you want to be with Person X) and at other times another (that you want to be with Person Y), is more associated with women than men, and thinking 'in life you should stick to your commitments' more associated with men. These observations are entirely unlike thinking that 'biology is destiny', or socialisation destiny. They're just reports on the culture of dating.

The Mouse's ex (I will say, 'Minnie') started fucking the Dom after the Quiet Mouse moved out, but before he understood their split was final. Cheating? Yes, if we accept the Mouse's word that they were on the same page that starting to date in that situation would constitute 'cheating'. I'm not sure I accept this. I think he proposed the arrangement to her in the hope they would get back together (and she ambiguously went along with it in some way). I think if the 'celibate till divorced or reconciled' idea had been her inspiration, we'd have heard about it.

The 'shacking up' is more likely to be in the Dom's house than theirs--? Whatever Doms a mouse--a dog? ... anyway, this guy is roughly twenty years older and likely to have a bigger place. The Mouse says he, the Mouse, paid their home's 'bills', not 'mortgage'. The young married couple rent; and Minnie wants him to fork out as little on the utilities as possible, wants to get out from somewhere she's been unhappy, etc., so goes round to the Dom's. There's nothing in the letter complaining the Dom has made no contribution to their former home's costs, so this is plausible to me.

I would not call someone I'd been with for ten weeks, let alone ten years, a 'piece of shit'. I'd say something like 'in the end he found it hard to be entirely honest' or 'in the end he found it hard to keep commitments'. The Quiet Mouse's, or formerly Quiet Mouse's, emotional incontinence is untrustworthy to me. Can you not identify with this?

At any rate, Dan has given the Mouse the wrong advice. The advice is basically 'feel the fuck out of your feelings'. That's a rich person's advice. The Mouse is more likely to be 32 than 45, and is seriously out of pocket after having had to rent for a year. The correct advice is 'accept it's over' (Minnie's not leaving the Dom) and 'come to a fair division of your marital assets and settlement of the last year's costs during divorce proceedings'. The reason the Mice have not got down to this is that there's still uncertainty over whether they have a future. Then, as soon as it's safe to do so, 'go on holiday'. I like Rome, he may like the Grand Canyon. But at least give Minnie a chance to put things right financially, because in three years that might mean more than the messy circumstances of your splitting.

@25. Nocute. Yes; in the Mouse's case, I would think, he finds Dom and Domming distasteful, and is incredulous that his ex has actually gone out and found one.

Harriet @26, "The last sentence is a generalisation about male anger, which I said may or may not be true in this case." You said you wouldn't be surprised if it was true. Therefore you have a strong suspicion that his anger, which is easily explained by his being cheated on, used for money and lied to, is based in sexism. ANYONE would be angry if they were treated this way.

"Resentment at women 'saying one thing and doing another' is very much a gender-themed trope." Sorry, again, anyone would be angry when the saying one thing is "let's not date other people" and the doing another is dating other people. That's not gender themed either. Why are you so eager to jump to gender stereotypes to explain something that's easily explained by the fact that Minnie cheated on and used her spouse? No stereotypes are needed to fill in missing details. No details are missing.

"The Mouse's ex (I will say, 'Minnie') started fucking the Dom after the Quiet Mouse moved out, but before he understood their split was final." Incorrect. He said they got involved "long before we separated." The timeline was: Minnie cheats; Minnie asks Mouse for a separation, during which she agrees that neither of them will date other people and he will pay her rent and bills; Minnie and Mouse discuss reconciliation, on more than one occasion, while she is not holding up her end of the not-seeing-other-people bargain; Minnie gets caught in her lies. I agree the not seeing others was probably Mouse's request, but she shouldn't have agreed to it knowing that she was already breaking that agreement.

You really think Minnie is being a kind person by going off to spend all her time at Dom's house so poor Mouse will have lower utility bills to pay? What a nice gal. Mouse literally says "rent and bills," so there is no speculation there. So you think Mouse is paying to rent and heat an empty house so that Minnie can maintain her facade of celibacy. Yes, that's shitty and if it is the case I would ask her to repay that money, since she wasn't even there!

No, I can't identify with an inability to feel angry at someone who cheated on me, lied to get me to cover their living costs for a year, and lied to get me to remain celibate while they had a new partner. Yes, I would call such a person a piece of shit. And no, I would not advise a person to stuff their feelings -- is that not the opposite of feeling them? He has good cause to be angry, and he is angry -- hell, I'm angry on his behalf over here. He's just found out he was lied to for well over a year. No, I don't expect maturity or perspective given those circumstances. I'd be pissed off too and I'd have more than a few choice words for the piece of shit who did that to me. (Ugh, it's just Wednesday and Harriet has me wound up already.)

Also, how is "feel your feelings" a rich person's advice, while "take an expensive holiday to get over it" not?

@8: Yes, seeing a doctor is good advice but it's highly probable that he knows what to do to get healthier. It's not rocket science. PRISONS need not await his boyfriend's medical results before heeding the advice in @4.

@25 Interesting observation. Re LW 1&3: when people describe their partner or ex-partner as crazy/evil, I have to wonder why they are/were interested in partnering with them... do they similarly dismiss their younger selves as crazy/evil? I think people with complementary issues attract.. like falling in love is the way we force ourselves to grow more understanding of each other and the harsher realities of ourselves, and loneliness is the result of failure.. but sometimes it’s just bad luck, we cannot have complete control of our destiny, no one said life is fair, it’s just beautiful when it’s not too painful..

@26 “ 'saying one thing and doing another' is very much a gender-themed trope”
I don’t believe that hypocrisy is a gendered thing. At all. Neither is deception. I think my viewpoint is more common in that most people will admit that their own gender can be very hypocritical too, when pressed. I think people generally understand that we are more compassionate towards ourselves and our group, are prone to favoritism and hypocrisy, and most therefore try to be socially well adjusted and exercise empathy. Also everyone lies (maybe just white lies) and knows it. It does also seem very common when people feel lazy or defensive to purport in some way that ‘it’s only people of different gender(s) who are really hypocrites’. Or liars, oath breakers, lazy thinkers, etc... Often blame or hypocrisy focus on different skin color, orientation, or traditionally religion..

“These observations are ... just reports on the culture of dating.“
Your reports are not unbiased, yet you act like you’re really trying, like you think your standard of evidence is high without explanation?? Why do you find your self-complimentary gender stereotypes to be necessary, what are you trying to accomplish with them?

You ever thought of trying your hand at writing fiction, Harriet? Because you sure like to flesh out whole stories about people, making up bits as you go along. You know nothing about these LW’s finances, yet you assume you do. Lot of hot air inside you.

If you read the letter, Harriet, it says he paid bills for his new place and kept paying hers too, for a year. Sounds like a man with money to me.
Came back to bite you on the bum, Dan, your changeable advice re cheating.
Mouse Man, you got conned and that is a mean woman to do this to you after ten years of marriage. If you really are a Mouse then she’s gone now for your opposite, a dominant man. She’ll probably con him too, or it might be her turn to be conned.
What should you do? Stop handing over money for a start. Keep expressing your rage, your mousy version, to this woman so you clear it. Emails or texts, tell her how you feel about her deceit and stealing your money. Ask for the money back. Basically, stop being a mouse, express to her your feelings, then move on with your life.
Do some therapy, join men’s groups, to help you get past this woman’s betrayal. Ten years plus one supporting her, you will grieve and rage for a while. And be glad you didn’t waste more of your life on someone so unworthy.

Isn't ice cream the healer of most wounds? I particularly recommend the Coffee Bean Blast at Trader Joe's. And as Dan sez, get plenty of exercise to offset the caloric and fat repercussions.

Icecream may do it for some, Bigcrouton, exercise always helps. Walking is great to muse over stuff while moving thru the land. Walking on grass or sand in bare feet is very grounding. Not sure snow will do more than freezing feet.

@1 BiDanFan: WA-HOOOOOOOOOOO!!!! Major congratulations on scoring this week's highly coveted FIRDT honors! Bask in the glory of leading the SL comment thread, and savor your riches. And Happy Safe, Healthy Thanksgiving, too! :)

Thank you, Dan the Man, for more spot on advice, especially to SHUTUPP. I agree that it's best for SHUTUPP to just sympathize with her friend who got phone-stalked, but let her do the blocking. What the LW suggests could very well backfire badly.
SHUTUPP: Your friend has my deepest sympathy. I would love to treat the inventor(s) of Caller ID and CallBlock to a steak dinner, complete with drinks and dessert.

Hey grizelda, we had our Music awards last night, and Amy Shark sang and won a couple of awards. She told us that the name came from her fear of sharks. No surprise there and she joins the rest of the country, at least us coastal dwellers. Up Nth they got crocodiles as well. Not to mention the drop bears.
Tim Minchin said ‘fucking’, on live commercial TV.
Some at a Casino in Sydney, to no audience and sang live, others on Zoom. This zoom, is gonna change everything. People don’t have to leave home. Had a few overseas presenters and singers. It was fun

Contemplating A3, I think Mr Savage clarified a little better on the current podcast which did more to establish at least the possibility of a cheating scale or spectrum. That cheating "can be" forgivable seems better phrasing, and Mr Savage at least made clear that it's reasonable to consider some instances of cheating not forgivable. The example that springs directly to mind is from the beginning of Muriel's Wedding when, at Chook's and Tanya's wedding reception, Muriel sees Chook and bridesmaid Nicole trysting in the laundry room. Muriel's Wedding seems especially topical this month, recalling how Muriel's father was once nearly elected to office at a higher-than-local level, but lost because of the postal votes.

I'm with Zinaida @7, recommending PRISONS try sex that isn’t oral or anal and see if they can rebuild a sexual connection on that basis (unless PRISONS feels anal is a requirement).

But I also wish I could go back in time six months and help them find a different path forward. They apparently had a happy sex life based mostly on oral sex, and then six months ago (ie May or June) his boyfriend had trouble getting erections.

Instead of being compassionate for someone having trouble getting hard (especially during a pandemic), PRISONS lost interest in their sex life.

Seems to me they could have shifted to the boyfriend giving PRISONS oral, while PRISONS then helped the boyfriend get off in whatever way worked for the boyfriend? Have they even had a conversation about what turns boyfriend's crank, sexually? We only hear that boyfriend isn't into anal, not a word about what he does get off on.

I think people in their 20s sometimes think they know everything about their bodies and aren't prepared to be flexible about sex when they start aging and their bodies don't respond exactly the way the young people expect them to.

Also -- PRISONS writes: "I don’t find him attractive anymore" and also "If sex was great between us I would be happy to remain boyfriends."

To me, that suggests that PRISONS is responding to his boyfriend's lack of erections by feeling undesired himself, and then interpreting that as not finding his boyfriend attractive. If he can imagine a great sex life with this guy (which his letter seems to leave open as a possibility), then I do think it's worth trying to rebuild their spark and reimagine their sex life.

Otherwise these same issues will keep coming up, in future relationships, and probably at about the 18 month mark.

Dear febeanouk1@41
Thank you very much for getting me in contact with Lord Zakuza the GOD! I am extremely glad to hear how extremely powerful this god is. I have already emailed him full payment for casting a spell to tear you limb from limb. I will miss your thoughtful visits to this forum.

Mr Venn @ 39, yes, Chook did the dirty alright. And the bridesmaid, well she got hers, right? Funny you should mention that now.. because my mothers’ home, where the coming over the hill in the car was filmed, from her driveway..we exchanged contracts on, yesterday. Bye house.

@34 Bigcrouton & @35 LavaGirl: Ice cream.....yum....now I'm in trouble! I have to watch my sugar, and a holiday favorite for me is peppermint ice cream! At least I can still have gluten free pumpkin pie with whipped cream.

@38 LavaGirl: SO cool about Amy Shark winning at your Music Awards ceremony!
Yes--I would be afraid of sharks and crocodiles, too. Out of curiosity I Google searched drop bears. Rumor has it that they are actually carnivorous mythological versions of koalas meant to scare off tourists.

@38 LavaGirl: I would be afraid of Australian spiders, too. Didn't you say the very worst ones are tiny red ones? Unless they're harmless little grey or brown garden spiders (i.e.: like author E.B. White's "Charlotte" from Charlotte's Web, or Roald Dahl's "Miss Spider" in James and the Giant Peach) Griz is indeed, arachnophobic. Big black ones creep me out.

@45: BUT---enough about Griz's fears! Biden / Harris are transitioning into the White House.
Wishing Dan the Man and everyone here in Savage Love Land a safe, happy, healthy Thanksgiving!

@46: Meaning--HOORAY--we FINALLY have a real and legitimately elected President and Vice President of the United States again! May this be the official end of the GOP and Trumpian Dark Ages.

Happy Thanksgiving, auntie griz, Dan, and everyone else in the SL comment community!

Happy Thanksgiving to all.

@24 Philophile. I think you are right re Dan's recommendation of cheating. 'Do what you have to do to stay married and stay sane': it lends itself to self-interested misinterpretation. It doesn't mean 'cheat as soon as you become dissatisfied with the marital sex you're getting', but selfish or frustrated people, or quick-readers, can take it as meaning that. Something like 'cheat if all else fails' and 'all else means all reasonable conversations and attempts to compromise' would be better. Bi made a similar point about Dan's advice, which I agreed with.

@29. Bi. Because I'm specifically advising using the money he's getting back from his ex (we hope) to pay for something nice for himself--something to give him a break, something to take his mind off his horrible break-up. I'm saying 'use it or a treat, don't just bank it'. You don't have to have any level of affluence above being higher than the breadline to say that.

@28. Bi. We have a slight difference of fact over whether Minnie started seeing the other guy while she and the Quiet Mouse were still living in the marital home. This is not how I read his 'separated'. I don't think he grants that the trial separation, when he moved out, actually was a separation (rather than, say, a 'time out'). The alternative timeline is also more plausible to me: the couple have difficulties, which they think they may be able to resolve (and he, certainly, wants to resolve); she asks for some breathing space, and he moves out; he insists that neither start relationships with anyone else, and she reluctantly goes along with this; she meets the Dom and starts a relationship (in some sense, 'cheats'); he finds out.

If your timeline is right, she behaved worse than I supposed; and his anger is going to rankle more.

I answered you on why I suspected his account was, at the very least, convenient to him. First, it's irrelevant that the Dom is 20 years+ older than his ex. Second, I find male emotional incontinence and anger in itself untrustworthy. To a degree, this is a gender stereotyping; but it's coming off the back of 35 years' worth of dating and thinking about relationships--and many more accumulated years of other people's experiences and activism. If the remark were about politics, e.g. 'the anger of older, less well-educated, white men is scary and makes unreasonable demands--e.g. about shutting down avenues to equality for people of color', I think you would agree. Of course anger is often justified; but someone who presses iron or skips rope or goes for a long run has my admiration, and someone who says 'my ex wife is a piece of shit!' starts to lose my trust. There's also a short-circuit in our political moment, and in lots of people's emotional lives, whereby they feel that anger is its own justification: because they feel angry at someone, they find that person (or group) more blameworthy or contemptible--they aroused their anger. Take a deep breath, people and mice.

YFTQM has finally found his voice - but he's roaring indiscriminately at everyone in hearing distance. Whatever his personal rage is, it doesn't help that he's done a 180, now referring to his former wife as a POS. Even if she fits the description, I hope he can tamp down the exposed raw reactions when dealing with the divorce.

He has unresolved issues he's alluded to in this letter, beyond the fact that he was a quiet mouse during his marriage, even covering his wife's housing bills post separation. Um, his mousedom was HIS issue - even if his wife manipulated him to her full advantage.

Now, he's enraged that she is with a Dom who's old enough to be her father. Why should he care so much about the new guy's age? Or the dynamics of her new relationship?

He needs to unpack his baggage before he can heal from this marriage and move on.

@28. Bi. You have wound yourself up.

I do have a personal comment, which may wind you up further, about your repeatedly thinking I run to gender stereotypes. If we want to describe what the world is like, in social terms, we have to describe what features men have in common with each other--and likewise women, children, adolescents and the members of every social group. (This is no way presupposes how extensive the common features are, or denies individual exceptions, or rather patterns of exception, to them). A phrase with some political content like 'toxic masculinity', which I don't think you'd find objectionable, only suggests there are some common features among some men--that they can be characterised a certain way. My reference to 'entitled' male 'anger' was no different to that--in fact, I would say (and it's a common view) that anger, a sense of entitlement, a coercive emotionality, an intractable sense of grievance are components of 'toxic masculinity'.

The personal remark would be that you seem to have distanced yourself so much from the (or one) mainstream of het dating in being poly, being bi, decoupling sex from any concerns of familial life, even in living outside your home country, that you have either lost sight of, or are ideologically invested in denying, patterns of common traits in men and women. But as someone presuming to give advice, this puts you in a peculiar position (exactly the same could be said of me). If your life is so unlike the life of those you are advising, on what basis are you advising them? How is it that you can make everything about 'ethics', about what it is right and wrong for everyone, not about how things customarily go--what is accounted reasonable; what is familiar and so negotiable, what unfamiliar and thus impossible to grant--in their own specific contexts?

I also do not know why I should be the person to get under your skin. In the comments, there are people suggesting that PRISONS should try to make things work with his partner--in a case where two people are no longer attracted to another; and the lw wants to break up without hurting his lover or having a lasting negative impact on him. This would seem a far more fundamental disagreement that you--ever, I would say--have, in the matter of 'headline' advice, with me, yet these differences do not exasperate you in the same way.

@33 Lava. If he's rich, he should take the hit and move on.

The Quiet Mouse says nothing about what led to his ex wanting to separate or break up. He should think, on his own and with all his money raked up around him, about how to avoid getting in that situation of being with someone basically incompatible again.

@31. Philophile. I didn't say that hypocrisy was gender-themed. I said that '[r]esentment at women 'saying one thing and doing another' is very much a gender-themed trope'--that is, that men are commonly seen as doing this, expressing this resentment, more than women.

@48 EricaP: Many thanks, and wishing you and your family a safe, healthy, Happy Thanksgiving,
as well.:)

@49 LavaGirl: Many thanks, and wishing you and your family an equally safe, healthy, and Happy THanksgiving, too, my Aussie sister! Keep on rocking, and again, congrats to Amy Shark! :)

@33 LavaGirl re The Quiet Mouse: I agree. This sounds like a woman who married someone for his money and took advantage of his wealth, only to move on to someone else while still manipulating Mouse Man. It has become an exhausted abbreviated phrase, but I'll gladly say it because I feel it applies: Mouse Man: DTFFA (not DTMFA--she's only after rich men).

Despite those celebrating traditional Thanksgiving feasting today, who's still hungry and has room for a luscious dessert of Lucky @69? Tick...tick...tick...

@55: Yoiks, my choice of words! I meant despite the fact that many are already feasting on Thanksgiving Day with a big meal, who's still hungry and has room for the Lucky @69 for a luscious dessert? Tick..tick...tick...

Remember Dan when you showed us pictures of yours and Terry’s Thanksgiving Table, or it might have been Xmas. It stands in my mind as the Gold standard.

Hope everyone is having a drink or six, and thinking thankful thoughts. The whole world is thankful US citizens picked Biden. I celebrated yesterday, low key. Happy rest of Thanksgiving.

I am very grateful for the interesting ideas I've heard here, and the interesting conversations I've had here. And that Dan gives explicit sexual advice without completely ignoring women's perspective, rather he seems to try to listen to women. And I'm grateful that he has argued that every gender should try to get sexual satisfaction, and that all sex is ok so long as people are behaving reasonably safely and consensually..

Harriet, women have a lot of words for the hypocrisy of men, too. Like 'patriarchy' or 'toxic masculinity'. Women express a lot of gender based resentment too, we have conventions about it, this tired old battle of sexism is usually referred to as 'gender wars'. So? What's your point, what does that have to do with Mouse? "Piece of shit" is not really a gendered insult, and he doesn't seem to be upset in any hypocritical way, unless he had started seeing people himself.. I'm not going to assume he's a hypocrit, though..

It sounds like Mouse is just mad that his wife broke her word to stay monogamous, not very surprising.. And it sounds like they had problems before that.. maybe he was turned off that she wanted to sub as is hinted in the letter, maybe he exhibited bad behavior that he is keeping secret beyond name calling, maybe they grew apart in lifestyle idk.. Bad behavior is what it is.. cheating, lying, hiding is just cowardly. Or mousy I guess.. And it seems nicer to call her a name then to file for divorce and refuse to forgive her.. or tell her that he's monogamous while he starts dating someone else, eye for an eye style. If he's going to give up and divorce, then he needs to stop poking that dead horse for his own sanity as Dan alludes. I don't think that anyone should make fun of him if he decides to forgive her and try to work on their sex life together again, though, as long as he's careful to let her earn trust and not trust blindly. Not sure why Dan decided this particular cheating was "unforgivable", because Mouse is silent about their actual sex life and his attempts to meet her needs.. Mouse seems more angry than dismissive to me but idk if he'd want to bone his wife again if she was monogamous again. Where's Dan's Christian cheekiness?

Harriet @51: Yes. The advice lends too much weight to "stay married." I prefer the advice "sometimes cheating is the least worst option." If you have no compelling reason to stay married, leaving should get higher priority on one's list of options than cheating.

"I'm specifically advising using the money he's getting back from his ex (we hope) to pay for something nice for himself." He's not getting it back. Best not to even put that idea in his head, because he will feel even more disappointed and angry if he starts to expect the money and makes plans for it. What if Mouse has gone into debt to pay to maintain two households, and any money he receives back would be better paying off 29+% credit cards?

I can't imagine an attempt to define "separated" as anything other than his moving out. Just admit that you misread the letter. It happens; I misread PRISONS as living with his boyfriend, which he never said. Don't start in with the verbal gymnastics of "oh, maybe 'separated' doesn't mean when he moved out and they started discussions about whether or not they would reconcile." At any rate, she was still seeing this other guy while she had pledged to Mouse that she wouldn't; and she admits that she "cheated," using Dan's word and Dan's advice as an excuse.

Your phrase "emotional incontinence" is insulting and your association of anger with men, and men alone, is sexist. What, now that Hunter and Sportlandia have been banished, you're taking up the mantle of starting gender wars? There's plenty of toxic masculinity in the world. You don't have to manufacture more by pretending there's something deficient about getting angry when your spouse cheats, lies, and cons you. I wouldn't trust anyone who claimed they WEREN'T angry about a situation like this. Mouse, certainly, will take a deep breath at some point. He wanted to get this out of his system. He's the victim here and you are tone policing him. He's been treated terribly and you're making him the bad guy because he was shocked at his ex's new partner's age. Let this guy vent, he deserves that much.

Harriet @53, no, you wound me up, as you so often do, so I'm skipping this comment to avoid "winding myself up" further. La la la.

Happy Thanksgiving to those on that side of the pond, and anyone else who may be taking the time to enjoy some tasty food and reflection on the things in our lives that are good, even in 2020.

@58 LavaGirl: A drink or six. I like that! Agreed and seconded. :)
I am thankful to be home, staying healthy, and well through the COVID-19 pandemic. Through physical therapy the tear in my right shoulder rotator cuff is healing, and regular VA-PTSD therapy helps me deal with my ongoing service-connected anxiety disorders. And while I really miss the company of my beloved VW, I know that he is safely tucked away in a nice warm, dry garage. I am also fortunate to enjoy a delicious Thanksgiving meal supplied by my local Community Co-op. Additionally, I am gratefully relieved that over 6 million more people than ~ 73 million voters chose Biden & Harris in 2020
Let the red wine flow, and the holiday movies on DVD play! Tonight, it's a Charlie Brown Thanksgiving followed by Planes, Trains, and Automobiles.

Big cyber hugs, positrons, and VW beeps to all. :)

@61: Griz missed an important blessing---ALSO---I am now back to practicing my piccolo, C, and alto flute flutes and piano up to hourly sessions from gradual progress with physical therapy on healing my right arm and shoulder cuff! Thank heavens for music! May it never die. :)

@62: curved or straight head on the alto?

@63 musicbiker: Straight head on the alto flute. And she plays fine! :)

Griz added another classic movie (because it was seasonal and had scenes of Halloween, Thanksgiving, Christmas, and New Year's) from 1980. Ordinary People. It won 4 oscars: Best Director (Robert Redford) Picture, Screenplay (Alvin Sargent), and Best Supporting actor (yaay!) Timothy Hutton. There are a lot of classics out there. :
Bless you, Lava. I went for the drink or six tonight. Good call. Big hugs, positrons, and VW beeps from my beloved VW and me. )

Hugs to you Grizelda, happy to read you’re back playing music. I was thinking today as I strolled past a big gaggle of older women at a beachside table, first off I thought, spare me, then I thought.. I could handle that if all were singing.
‘Ordinary People,’ was a great and sad and real book and movie. Good choice. They didn’t butcher the movie, like they did with Crazy Rich Asians.
/ Fan @60, I think Mouse should ask for his money back, not expect it , still ask for it. He needs to untangle himself from this woman, one assertive move after the other. She’s already pulled the wool over his eyes for who knows how long with her Dom, and Mouse has to find the strength to close doors on this woman. Bang. Bang. Bang.

Griz @62: Yay! Music is SO important. I'm glad you're back to enjoying your beloved instruments.

Lava @65, oh, yes, I definitely think he should ask her to repay the rent money he gave her under false pretenses. He should just not be under any illusion that he'll get it. He should lawyer up, end the lease on this place (if it's in his or their joint names, which it probably is), have any other joint assets frozen, I'm sure there are people who can better advise on the details than me. When I divorced there were no assets. But it was immensely satisfying taking back my car, which he'd been using while I made the payments. I hope Mouse gets similar schadenfreude with his soon-to-be ex-wife.

So I read the post @53 and here is my gotcha. Harriet. I was married, monogamously, to a man. How can you claim I don't know how hetero relationships work? I have had far more OS experience than you've had. I continue to have connections to the OS world; one of my partners is a straight man. IMO, one reason there is so much strife in OS relationships is because the men and the women in them insist on seeing each other as "other"; like you're doing now, they presume their partner has behaved in a certain way because of their gender, which is dismissive and does not allow actual analysis of the problem or a route to a solution. This reducing everything to gender essentialism is what exasperates me, not a difference of opinion on what an LW should do. This plus your flights of fancy, making things up to justify your often odd analyses of situations that are clear and obvious on their faces. No, we don't know Mouse's role in the dissolution of his marriage. But even assuming the worst about him -- that he was abusive (unlikely given his self-description as quiet and mousy), that he refused to entertain her requests to even lightly dominate her, or that the marriage was sexless -- Minnie remains guilty of cheating instead of ending a marriage that had no children or mortgage to justify ranking cheating less worse than divorce; of using him for money (again assuming the worst, if she was unemployed at the beginning of that year, it behooved her to take steps to become more self sufficient); of dishonesty and breaking promises; and of unethical non-monogamy. If he were abusive, she should have made a clean break. If she couldn't accept their sex life, she should have requested non-monogamy or left. None of this changes if you reverse the genders. That's why I'm exasperated with your bringing stereotypes into the conversation. We don't have stereotypes here, we have people. Whether it's you or Hunter or Sporty, dismissing people by reducing them to stereotypes is unfair and insulting.

And at least Hunter and Sporty can claim expertise on how the hetero world works, which you admit you cannot. Perhaps you should take your own advice and stop opining on things you have no direct knowledge of? You are not speaking from experience, you are speaking from stereotype only, and that indeed is what is exasperating. We need less stereotyping in this world, not more.

Of course my advice is anchored in what is ethical. That is what advice is: the discussion of what people should do, not what people do do. Of course Mouse's options include, for instance, revenge. Who could ethically advise him to take this route? Of the many options, he should choose one that is ethical, realistic, and mentally healthy for him. Stuffing his feelings and planning a vacation with money he's unlikely to ever see do not fit those parameters. LWs deserve compassion as a default, and you are not showing it by calling him "emotionally incontinent" and "untrustworthy" and scolding him for his language. This is kicking him when he is down. His anger, as even you say, is justified -- why go on to berate him for it, just because he's a man? Men in a patriarchy are allowed to feel anger and not many other emotions, sure. That does not mean in this case his anger is inappropriate. You are turning him into a social science project, which is condescending. He's a real person with real pain.

@59. Philophile. My point is that the Quiet Mouse's angry manner makes me think that there is more to the story than he's telling us. (I did think his angry manner stereotypically male--in the way men are angry--but this isn't essential. You're right that there are characteristic female ways of pointing out male hypocrisy, and characteristic male ways of pointing out female).

For instance, it would seem likely that she made him move out because she wanted a change, or issued an ultimatum; and it was in doubt whether or not he would grant this. (We don't know what the change she wanted was--but it does seem clear that she was the one for whom it was so important it mandated a trial separation). I would guess that he couldn't do what she wanted, or decided not to, or dragged his feet on it; and in this time she found a Dom and started a new relationship. It wasn't as simple as 'she promised to be celibate before divorce or reconciliation; she broke her promise'. The point again is that the Mouse's manner and omissions give me a sense of what the other party, his ex wife, might say and what a more balanced picture of what went on might be.

@60. Bi. The sentence (it's a single sentence) in his letter is:

Unfortunately, she was shacking up with a “Dom” who was old enough to be her father and this was going on long before we separated.

I don't think the "Dom" moved into the marital home before the Mouse moved out. Or that Minnie moved out, so the Mouse could promptly move out in turn. Ergo, 'we separated' means 'we split for good'. Alternatively, as per your reading, 'this' refers to 'she was fooling around with', not 'she was shacking up'. I understand your reading, and, going back, now think it more likely. But I don't think good-faith disagreements about matters of fact are well examined by saying 'I'm a good close-reader; you're engaging in verbal gymnastics'. This manner of argument would not dispose any interlocutor to seek agreement on anything beyond matters of fact.

Obviously women get angry as well as men. I'm not trying to start any gender ways. Granting that occasionally men act in characteristically male ways and women in characteristically female ways--which I would think I do less than the board's cisfeminists--is not trying to start gender wars.

BDF - I simply can't keep your rules about letter writers and assumptions made about them straight. I think my jaw is still on the floor from your comments (Oct. 27) directed to a letter writer (presumed female) that you "highly suspect" that she was sexually abused at a young age. Later in the comments you said you "wouldn't be surprised to learn" that the GF of the LW was also a survivor of sexual abuse.

You justified those noxious opinions - which you eventually qualified but never retracted - with the flimsiest and most twisted of logic . Ever since that comment thread I've been endlessly entertained whenever you get on your high horse and accuse other commenters of assuming facts not in evidence.

In my head I've come to calling it BiDanFansplaining.

Jibe @70, glad to provide you with much needed entertainment in these dark times.

And, why would I retract those opinions? There is nothing noxious about them. They came from a place of sympathy. I can't see why you would find them noxious.

@67. Bi. I'm not a gender essentialist--I'm an anti-gender essentialist. Essentialism believes that the genders, in gross, are the way they are because of underlying, informing influences that are inaccessible to change--for an essentialist e.g. anatomy, hormonal biochemistry, or patterns of identifying with male and female parents in ego formation. I'm against all this. I think there /are/ commonalities among men and among women; but these derive from history, upbringing and socialisation, role specialisation and power relations. I studied sociology, not Freudian psychoanalysis.

The basic idea of Savage Love--when it got to be more than a joke, at least--was that a homosexual could offer sex and dating advice to hets and bis (though maybe 'bi' came later) without having been in a long-term straight relationship (I think) or (certainly) having any aspirations to be in a long-term straight set-up. The basis of this advice--whatever Savage's early manner--was empathy and a (growing, always growing) knowledge of relationship types and styles, and forms of sex, in which the advice-giver had no personal interest. Are you really saying that I should recuse myself from commenting on e.g. early-stage het dating because it's beyond my experience? That this would be in keeping with the ethos of the site? This is not the basis on which you comment. You comment about e.g. gay male dating, despite not being a gay man; you comment about sexual subcultures like ABDL and handling, without being a handler or a pup.

Your 'gotcha' is not much of a gotcha, in that I said you have 'lost sight' of a 'mainstream of het dating'--possibly forgotten, or suppressed what you know for ideological reasons. (I would feel that I have been 'married', too, though there was no piece of paper saying that; could I advise a het marriage on the basis of experience? Maybe no, maybe yes, probably not...--in that I was a wife in my own mind, and mostly not in the eyes of the world). You are not taking on board the point about (the possible shortcomings of) advising people on the score of absolute ethics, rather than on the morality that's current in their culture. Let's take a more Dear Prudence style question, from someone who doesn't have sex until after marriage. I think advice to someone like that would have to accept the norm of no-sex-till-marriage, would have to get into the headset of finding it desirable not to have sex beforehand. Could you (would you think) give equally good advice to someone with non-SL type of questions? If so, would there be an issue with your culture (now that you're not het-married, but poly, bi, without kids, overseas, etc.) being so different to the recipients of your advice?

Apropos this problem, someone in pain can moderate the expression of that pain. It doesn't mean the pain is less, or any less justified. I was not the only person to think his pained anger--my wife is a 'piece of shit'--immoderate (e.g. @52, @24). You and Lava didn't--and Lava thought his anger gender-typical, telling him to join a men's group. I didn't tell him to 'muffle' his pain, but to think practically about the future. The incontinence with which he voiced his pain reminded me that there are two sides to every story, and gave me a sense of what the other side might be.

Yes, one moderates or transforms pain. Getting feelings across to people who have deeply hurt one, like Mouse here has been hurt, helps move the healing process along. After my marriage ended, I let rip with energies that man had tried to repress in me. He being a big baby and with a new woman beside him, let’s just cal her the black widow spider, couldn’t handle hearing me fully. So off he goes to the court and takes out an order against me. Shutting me up. Not before I shed many words expressing my truth.
This was thru email. And Mouse might find he gets closed down too, especially if her new ish man sticks his two cents in. Mouse has been paying for his love nest too.
Turning to verbal abuse or physical violence, is never an option.. that’s not my meaning, when I say rage.
Get the feelings out, to the person, who has hurt one. Fuck you bitch.. comes to mind.
They were together for a decade, more, because that’s the length of their marriage. It’s sad when the end is like this, because it colours the years which went before.

I haven’t much read thru the recent instalment, Harriet, though I caught my name. I’m still not clear who you are and what your life experiences are, gay/ bi/ cis or trans. It’s all become a bit of a blur.
I suggested a men’s group because talking with others who have had shared experiences helps to ease the pain. He could do some group therapy too, gender non specific.
I think men need to talk more, about their inner pain and stories, to each other. Straight men I’m talking about, Mouse sounds like one of those. He sounds a good guy, looking after her, trying to work things out. He’s been blind sided by a manipulative person, he needs some support and comfort. Wherever he gets it from.

As Dan says, use your words. This advice is sound, it’s his cheating advice which is sus, because he’s not a straight man and the rules are different, emotionally, when the sex is between men and women. No gay man has ever given birth, so there is none of that extra dimension of being the same sex as the Mother.
Mouse, tell your cheating ex that she got it wrong, and using Dan’s, albeit loose, words about cheating is not on. It’s you she has to have worked with, not Dan, and she blew it.
You are not a mouse, because someone else deceived you. You earn enough to keep two places going, and you have a generous heart.

Harriet, "It wasn't as simple as 'she promised to be celibate before divorce or reconciliation; she broke her promise'"
You are correct if you mean that's not all that happened between them. But she did promise him monogamy and broke her word, and yet you seem deaf to his pain from this, like you lack basic empathy with someone who has lost resources due to dishonesty, and are more fixated on the rude/offensive words he spoke in anger. Calling someone a piece of shit does usually hurt people who speak English, although it can also be done affectionately in some English-speaking subcultures. Oath breaking is not ethical in any culture, it is hurtful to all humans.

Ethics vs morality
Dishonesty is a mental attack, like punching someone. It's not a matter of tradition or culture, like" rude" communication, like flipping someone off. it's common to all humans to be hurt by dishonesty, by lying, by oath breaking, by interacting with someone with ignorance or disbelief or intolerance of human rights, by physical blows, by forcible restraints, by omission of facts about our physical safety. It's not subjective or dependent on culture, we do really have physical bodies whose functions can physically become impaired either directly or indirectly by others' actions. We do really have some mental sense of reality that we rely on which can become impaired by dishonesty. We do have some social needs, to trust others enough to feel some social safety, which can become impaired by oath breaking and dishonest manipulation. Humans need some sense of choice and like other mammals will suffer when constant or tight restraints are imposed. Humans are unique that we all suffer when others refuse to believe the feelings we sincerely try to communicate, when others refuse to accept/tolerate our individuality and humanity. (If I learned the language of another human, who told me they were sad, I would hurt them and make them angry as well as sad if I said "you're not sad, you're happy!": it's not dependent on any particular language or traditions.) These "harms" are not culturally dependent, it's just the way humans work, and ethics tries to codify the human, rather than cultural, ways we can hurt each other. Morality is the cultural way we try not to hurt each other, not ethics.. It's the list of rules one culture or religion follows.. There's no point in arguing morality with someone who doesn't share your own sense of morality. Ethics can be argued by anyone who cares to try to reason out the ways that humans in general are harmed.

It's interesting that humans seem to innately value fairness (although wildly differing on opinions of fair behavior).. but I think other mammals have fairness instincts too because they stand in line sometimes too, but idk.

I hypothesize that you associate profane name calling with deeper unethical behavior from your personal painful experience(s) with men. Or you are struggling with your own internal sexism, or unconscious gender essentialism.

There is certainly more to the story of Mouse and Minny than what is in the letter. My point is that there is nothing in the story that indicates that Mouse is sexist, or even particularly evil. When a human is hurt badly, it is adaptive and good to lose empathy and seek revenge if a legal system is missing or ineffective.. Currently it's more effective to tamp down our revenge instincts since we have a pretty effective legal system. Revenge impulses seem easy for me to understand though, very forgivable unless they result in lasting harm.

The women who are most vociferously disagree with you are those who have or had called others a "piece of shit" in anger, including myself (although I like to think I wouldn't do that anymore). We are the evidence that we work like this man, that this sort of harmful behavior is not about gender.

"I find male emotional incontinence and anger in itself untrustworthy."
But women do it too, and it's also indicative of our ability to negligently/maliciously hurt others, and you would be wise not to continue to trust us blindly when we display "emotionally incontinence", especially if there seems to be no reason for revenge feelings. We are not madonnas, and those who expect madonnas and are disappointed often hurt us by calling us whores, or flipping extremes and treating us as inherently evil and "justifiably" abusible/revenge-worthy (for failing to live up to unrealistic expectations!).

And I'd like to thank you for the thoughtful conversation. I like that you don't consider your opinion to be entirely self evident or objectively correct, that you are willing and able to try to explain yourself when questioned, I judge that trait to be very important and admirable, it's nice of you to publicly demonstrate it. How else would people learn how to do it, if their parents didn't? And it helped me to try to communicate my thoughts on this issue to a person who may actually take the time to consider my thoughts.

Harriet, I think I nearly completely agree with you although my conclusion is rooted in different logic.. My logic is that "if he feels in love with someone with shady traits, then he has some shady traits".. His name calling is the evidence that backs up my theory. It's probably why I am against break ups if there seems to still be feelings of attachment. If he were calm and sad and detached from his marital misfortune, I'd understand the consensus to divorce, more.. Anger is evidence of attachment; hatred is deep, maybe maladaptive, attachment. Detachment is peaceful feeling..

It makes me a bit angry that Dan comes down so hard on cheating here, judging it unforgivable or divorce-worthy, when he actually advises cheating in cases like these, so long as the cheater is sexually unsatisfied. This summer, he advised it without even requiring that the husband express his dissatisfaction, first. How does he know that this woman's situation was different than the sort where he's advised spouses to cheat? Or is the difference just gendered hypocrisy? I'm attached to this column so unfairness here, seeing him attack people who seem to have taken his advice, treating people hypocritically, makes me angry and energetic enough to address it..

It would have been sort of awesome if Dan would have explained his standard advice more honestly to Mouse. If he had said that he only advised cheating when a spouse seemed deeply unhappy with the sex. If Minny was taking his advice, then if she hadn't cheated, she probably would have divorced Mouse already. But then he'd have to entertain the possibility that it would have been better for Mouse if Minny would have simply divorced him without cheating. He'd start to realize that he's been harmful to many marriages by advising spouses to cheat without 1) explaining that the sex was deeply unsatisfying to the point they were entertaining divorce 2) asking for a fair, open relationship to fairly address their problem first and 3) requiring a compellingly selfless reason to stay married (to better help a spouse or children). Maybe he can't handle the guilt or realization that he's probably hurt people when he's advised cheating without these three important caveats that arguably make cheating the least worst option. But everyone makes mistakes, it's not like he was promoting concentration camps...

@64: Excellent! If you have a curved head, using it will help reduce stress on your shoulder as you heal. Of course you know this already, but it doesn't hurt to have someone else mention it.

You can even get a curved head for the C flute if needed. (You probably already know this as well.) It won't sound as good, of course, especially since most of them are designed for use by young children, but again maybe it would help you with your shoulder.

I say (type) all this as muscles in my own right shoulder cuff heal.

For cases missing #3, where the spouse just wants to stay and cheat because they are not financially or emotionally independent enough to survive a divorce well, he does seem to say that it's only forgivable so long as they are working very hard to become financially and emotionally independent. But wouldn't there be more motivation to do this if they restrained themselves from sex until they were able to divorce? Or does pursuing and experiencing good sex sometimes provide the motivation to fiercely keep living and achieve the financial/emotional independence to do so? I think both opposite opinions seem fair. But the former is more ethical, so it would seem to require more burden of proof to conclude the latter. If they aren't seemingly able to get independent enough for divorce without cheating, then cheating to get independent enough to divorce is the least worst option?

But this summer her didn't require 1) 2) or 3) in order to advise cheating to a MAN.
https://www.thestranger.com/slog/2020/05/04/43594617/nothing-has-changed-after-thirty-years-of-marriage-and-three-kids

He ignored the big problem in the letter :
"I have found my wife's interest in sex to be less than enthusiastic. She'll deny this fact (and has!), but her interest noticeably declined after we had our first child."
"I'm attracted to my wife and want to have sex with her! We have discussed the problem but she simply denies it's an issue."
[This is].. "jeopardizing the state of the marriage itself. She insists it isn't a problem while I feel like it's a big problem and possibly a dealbreaker."
The big problem is that his wife is in denial and he is not asserting himself enough to break through the denial and prove to her that her lack of attraction is important enough to jump through hoops and if there is nothing he can do to make her enjoy sex again at least as much as she showed at first, that he'd rather find someone new for sex. Because she dismissed him when he started trying, he wants to give up. I disagree with Dan that the best course is to give up and still pretend to be faithful. Unless he is too weak to survive divorce until he starts cheating, and incapable of 1) 2) and 3). Dan stopped writing so much shortly after that letter, maybe he was just feeling really off, I hope I'm not harping on something that he already understands and regrets.

Correction @76, no cis gay man has ever given birth.

No cis man ever, really. Maybe Adam closest they have come, and that involved ribs and was a made up story.

Your ex hasn’t needed you just financially, LW, it’s also been emotional need. Her Dom, may or may not survive you leaving the scene. She’s used you both to work out her issues, and therapy would have been a better way to spend your money.
Be careful, because she’ll keep trying to manipulate you to maintain her story, so remember to keep saying/ singing to yourself.. ‘ I won’t be fooled again.’

Ms Lava - Deidre Chambers, what a coincidence! as they'd have said in the film.

There's also the useful example of how, while Nicole remains unforgiven, by the end of the film Tania, Cheryl and Janine are friendly with Rose Biggs (another of Chook's accomplices in adultery, as we learn during the friend-dumping scene).

Lava @ 85
There’s no "I" for an eye, only Won't Get Fooled Again and likely the loudest “Yeeeeeaaaaaaah” in rock history.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SHhrZgojY1Q

@65 LavaGirl: I can really relate to Ordinary People. Actors Timothy Hutton, Elizabeth McGovern (playing pretty, likable Janine Pratt, in the choir), Dinah Manoff (Karen), Adam Baldwin (as creepy Stillman), et al are among my contemporaries. I feel like I'm back in [my own] high school every time I watch the movie. It is a truly heartbreaking story, very touching. :)

@66 BiDanFan: Yes---may music live on. I am so glad to have it and pray to always have it in my life, along with my beloved Emotional Support Volkswagen, instruments, and people in my life. Bless you and so many others for being among the, :)

@80 Musicbiker: I actually don't have a curved mouth piece on any of my C or alto flutes. But thank you--this is very good to know. Thank you for the helpful recommendations, and healthy healing for your right shoulder. I can certainly relate. :)

@69 Harriet_by_the_Bulrushes: WA-HOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!! Heartfelt congratulations on scoring this week's Lucky @69 honors! Savor the delectable decadence, and bask in the much-envied glory. :)

Does anyone have room left over for the Big Hunsky? Tick...tick...tick...

@87 CMDwannabe: The Who's song, Won't Be Fooled Again. Now there's a real Brit-rock classic--------YEEEEEAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHH! :)

Soo I probably shouldn't admit this, but when I had the telephone number of a person whom I wanted to exact revenge upon, I signed them up for financing calls from used car dealerships on a bunch of $5,000 or less cars in our area. The calls all showed up as a local area code so she couldn't know if it was a legitimate call or another spammy car dealership call. I believe it went on for at least a couple months. Maybe try that, SHUTUPP?

Harriet @73: I've spent more time debating with you already than I wanted to, so I'm hoping to tie off this thread by responding to this question:
"Are you really saying that I should recuse myself from commenting on e.g. early-stage het dating because it's beyond my experience?"
Of course not. I'm responding in kind to your wind-up, wherein you suggested that I was no longer capable of relating to monogamous heterosexuals. This was either trolling, which may or may not be your nature, or (I should say and/or, because it is almost certainly the latter) projection. Is it me who's "lost sight" of mainstream het dating, me, the person who can relate to Mouse's letter, who understands what he's going through, why he feels the way he does, why he uses those words? Or you, who's perplexed by it? Is it me who's forgotten the ethics/morals of non-monogamy are different from those of monogamy? The primary difference of course being that in ENM, sex and relationships with others are not just expected but the entire point, but in monogamy, an affair is the ultimate betrayal. Isn't it you who's forgotten this to the point that you expect a monogamous husband to shrug off a year-plus affair with "we've grown apart"? In monogamous world, this earns someone the moniker CPOS -- cheating piece of shit. It's not just Mouse who uses those words for a cheater. So, your wind-up, your "personal remark," @53 seems to apply very well to yourself, but not also, as you surmise, to me.

Someone in pain CAN moderate their language, but expecting them to, scolding them for not doing so, is condescending and unrealistic. As I said, he's the one who's been used and hurt, he's entitled to vent. And if there were an element of misogyny here, wouldn't he have used gender-based words (as Lava suggests @74) to trash his CPOS wife? He's not a misogynist or a toxic male, he's a victim of what in his world is the ultimate betrayal, with insult (paying her rent) heaped on injury. You're the one who seems to lack the perspective to see this. I see it fine.

Phi @77: "She did promise him monogamy and broke her word, and yet you seem deaf to his pain from this, like you lack basic empathy with someone who has lost resources due to dishonesty, and are more fixated on the rude/offensive words he spoke in anger." Exactly. Really good post, thank you.

This discussion of Mouse has recalled a similar situation where the jilted man got little sympathy, which led Sportlandia to cry sexism on the part of the commentariat. Wish he could see this thread. The issue with the previous man was not that he was a man, but that he used phrases like "manmade rack" and extolled her sexual appetite and not much else, admittedly followed his dick into an obviously unwise relationship with an openly selfish woman, and that when she cheated on him, his thoughts ran to revenge. Mouse, too, is a man and is getting sympathy from everyone but Harriet as he appears genuine, the victim of another person's actions, someone who did his best by his wife and got slapped in the face for it. Here's the compare-and-contrast letter Sporty was looking for this whole time.

Phi @79 and @81, agree completely. If Minnie could not longer maintain a relationship with Mouse because of sexual dissatisfaction, there seems no compelling reason to stay (a missing #3), so she should have left rather than cheat. That's practical advice, not just ethical -- they're divorcing anyway, and she would have left him a lot less hurt and angry had she skipped over the bit where she "cheated to save their marriage" and initiated a more amicable split.

Phi @82, I agree that was bad advice. Perhaps that's the letter Minnie read when she needed to justify her cheating to Mouse or to herself. Perhaps Minnie agreed that inertia was a good enough reason to rank cheating above leaving. Shitty advice, Dan, and per a removed comment it seems to have been among a string of "go ahead and cheat" answers. Perhaps Mouse's story will make him think.

@84 LavaGirl: Some translations of the Bible suggest that it's the baculum (penile bone), not rib, that was taken from Adam to create Eve. That puts a bit of a different spin on the story.

@88 auntie grizelda: You're welcome! I wasn't sure if I was telling you what you already know. The general consensus is that a straight alto head joint usually sounds better than a curved one. Many alto flutists use a curved head joint for ergonomic reasons: because the instrument with a straight head joint is too long and/or heavy for them. It could help you as your shoulder heals, if you can borrow one. I mentioned the C curved head joint for completeness; you probably don't need that, but it exists if you do.

SHUTUPP's vindictiveness aside, the fate ze wishes on this guy is already a reality, as it is for SHUTUPP and everyone else with a phone number. Why does ze think that the pervasive spam calls we all get would ignore him?

Seems like a "wants social validation of zir opinion that this guy is an asshole" situation, like all of the MSNBC interviews over the past four years where the sole purpose is to have guests call Donald Trump an asshole. Yes, he's an asshole (as is Trump); now move your focus on to materially useful action rather than continually obsessing over your disdain and the vindictive fantasies it prompts.

Musicbiker, @93, you can call me Lava if you like, I’m not really a girl. She’s deep inside me though no longer externally on show. The Catholic nuns would never have allowed a bible which mentioned penis, and we all know it’s neither rib or what penile bone?, it’s all one big fat lie by the first Patriarchs, probably because of their Mother issues.

Mr Venn @86, your memory is much better than mine, though yes, some of the dialogue has made it into general use. The Deirdre one is a classic.
I was thinking that movie’s political line was so true, about Queensland, my adopted state. For many years, the right wing had control because of gerrymandering, openly corrupt by the end of their years of control. Then we had a report done, federally, about these crooks, and Australia woke up a bit. We’ve just voted our Premier, Labor, in for the third time, in Qld.
Won’t be fooled again.
Truth is CMD, that song only came to me because I saw the beginning of a CSI show on some random
Channel, you know the one, David Caruso and his glasses, and that song is the theme song. Never been much of a Who fan. People Try To Put Us Downnn.
Therefore I never learnt the lyrics, and it’s lyric changing license I’m indulging in, and I think it will be helpful to put the ‘I’ in front, for our letter writer. And for him to sing it loud.

This was decades ago Mr Venn, in the 70s and 80s. Qld was the joke, to Southerners. Me still being one at the time, though I came up Nth to Uni way back. Loved the tropics, except for the heat and cyclone threat, so I’ve settled for the sub tropics. Still heat, less cyclone threat.

Musicbiker @ 93
I don't recall anything about penile bone in that context appearing in the original version, and quite sure I would have picked on it even if it would only come up as a remote conspiracy.

And this week's Big Hunsky winner IS..............

@95: Okay, thanks, Lava. I'll try to remember.

@95 and 98: Adam's penile bone is one of those things that I've heard about for decades. The Daily Beast just published a blurb rehashing...er, speculating about it:

https://www.thedailybeast.com/was-eve-made-from-adams-missing-penis-bone

Sure, it's all made up and the points don't matter (but Chip Esten won the most points!), but it's kind of fun to learn a bit more about the ways in which it was made up then distorted, sort of like playing telephone when some censoring is taking place in between message exchanges.

@93 Musicbiker: Many thanks again. All my piccolo, C, and alto flute head joints are straight, but your recommendations, especially during my right shoulder healing are much appreciated. :)
And....

@100 WA-HOOOOOOOO!!!! Major congratulations to Musicbiker on scoring this week's Big Hunsky Award (@100) honors! Bask in the envied glory and savor your well earned riches! :)

Lava @95, what about the Song of Solomon? Pretty steamy! No penis as I recall, but it did mention breasts. Scandalous, for an eight-year-old leafing through the Bible in church. Yes, it does make more sense for a creation myth to start with Eve, the one who'd bear the children to populate the world with, then for the creator to realise she'd forgotten the catalyst and create Adam.