Savage Love

Lesbian Drama



Congrats on the hunksy, Ricardo! And Griz, I envy -you- -- I have a neighbour who is always complaining about my piano practice, even though it's only a few evenings a week. How about a neighbour swap? I'm sure my neighbour would learn to appreciate piano if the alternative was a constant blast of heavy metal! Sorry you have to put up with that, Ricardo -- but I'm sure that unlike my neighbour, you're not being a drama queen about it!


Ms Grizelda - Did you see that Dawn Wells died Wednesday, leaving Tina Louise as the only surviving cast member of Gilligan's Island? It's making me want to do a head count of the remaining Bradys and Partridges.


@103~ Iheard there was at least one Partridge left living in a pear tree, somewhere...


Everyone is right that we need to know what the 'drama' is. Is it throwing insults, throwing plates or throwing punches? What is the bar for the police to keep coming, and the bar for the exclusion orders, or the like, to be issued? (It's very likely to vary from place to place). One impulse I'd have here is not to minimise the potential harm of domestic violence because the people involved are both women. It can be a biased misconception to suppose a relationship of that sort is characterised by an equality of strength--physically or psychologically. Some other intervention than just saying, on the lw's and others' parts, 'this isn't a healthy relationship', may be required.

Let's suppose that the drama is of a more than venial sort--it's not e.g. one woman temporarily moving to a separate bedroom or moving out because her wife looks at a third party. Suppose threats of violence or actual violence. Most of the advice given has been directed at someone not necessarily part of our conversation, i.e. the young lesbian friend, but the advice now could be aimed at the lw. Fichu is right: she (I will just go with 'she' here, as the lw's gender is not, I think, indicated) ... she should stop being party to these cycles of abuse. She should say, 'this is not simply drama but abuse; and I won't accept your making me the enabler of your abusive relationship'. I don't know that more is required of her than that; but she could also vigorously direct the friend to therapy or counsel a break-up if she believes the situation warrants it.

Talking about the lw, DRAMA, now, not so much the relationship she talks about, I didn't understand what was going on in her mind re Dan's concept of a 'price of admission'. Can she think that the 'drama' involved of being with the wife is a POA for her friend--so that she should accept it, stop kvetching about it? Well, if the 'drama' is something like threats of violence, or saucepans or kettles thrown at her head (we don't know what it is; these are notional but not impossible examples), I would say that the idea of a POA has been wrongly applied. Maybe the potential applicability of the idea of a POA is evidence that the 'drama' is just recriminations and characterisations. But rather than thinking, 'do I have to hear this?', it would seem right to me that the lw (who has after all written to Dan Savage) should consider her responsibilities. Are there other family members she could liaise with, as well as police and social services professionals?

Congratulations to Lost Margarita on her marriage and JibeHo on her anniversary!


Concerning couples that fight: I used to know an elderly (straight) couple, the parents of someone I knew. They constantly fought. To the best of my knowledge there was never physical or sexual abuse, but theirs was not a happy marriage.

At a party thrown by the son, she told me about how unhappy she was in this marriage, how unhappy she was that they always fought, how unhappy she was with him, and that next week she was going to leave him. I do not know for sure if she routinely talked like that or not. Her husband was also at the party, as I recall, and they stayed on opposite sides of the party the whole time.

Mind you, she and I were on a "hi-how-are-you" level of acquaintance; I was not a confidante of hers, nor of her son for that matter.

Well, several days later, he had a heart attack or stroke or something like that, and died of natural causes.

I saw her at the funeral, a week after the party. She remembered our conversation. I honestly do not remember what she said about it, if anything, but she was clearly ambivalent at best about the outcome. She certainly was not happy or relieved--or, if she was, she's a good actor.

I suspect that there are people who just enjoy conflict and strife, at least on some level. Or at least it's what is normal to them. They may not have, or may not want to use, the tools available to them to break the cycle.


Re U-haul: thanks for the info, everyone.


Harriet-- Are you sure you meant me? I never said anything like that. When I said that WAP needs to start seeing her sister as an abuser (@46), I meant that someone who moves in, doesn't pay rent, and refuses to leave is abusing the good graces and hospitality of the person who gives her the place to stay. I wasn't referring to anything in the DRAMA letter. The rest of my comments were about drama in general and the way we use the word "drama."


@100: WA-HOOOOOOOOOO!!!!! Hooray for Ricardo on scoring this week's first Big Hunsky honors to usher in 2021! Bask in the glory and savor your well-deserved riches.:) and
@100 Ricardo: If you're comfortable with posting your email address I would be happy to share some of my mp3 sound recordings. I have a bunch of ideas for a new series of orchestrated pieces based on a Stephen King novel. More on this soon. :)


@102 BiDanFan: I'm sorry to hear that you have a neighbor who doesn't appreciate your piano playing. That really sucks. If it's any consolation, up until this last year I had to contend with a snobby jerk who lived with his equally skittish girlfriend the unit directly above mine. He kept pounding on my front door---at a decent hour of the evening, not late at night---complaining about my flute music. He claimed to be a trumpet virtuoso who soloed with the Seattle Philharmonic but gave it up because his father was a real "dragon lady". Why that guy and his equally skittish girlfriend moved into my building I can't imagine. Their uptight mannerisms reeked of stodgy upper-class private schools and gated communities with country club memberships. As if they did us "unwashed common folk" a big favor by deigning to walk among us! I hope your living situation isn't like that. It has been a relief that the snobs from upstairs moved out, after apparently trying to make a long commute to a really good paying job work out. They obviously weren't used to surrounding neighbors. Good luck to them, and good riddance. They got so ridiculous with their idea of agreeable play time restrictions. He had "issues" with my piccolo, C and alto flute & piano practicing (admitting later that he wasn't an expert on woodwind instruments---no shit!), but then went and got himself an electric guitar with an amplifier that we could all hear from down the street. No musical ear whatsoever ("Oh. gee---what does this chord sound like?' twannnng). They finally quit harassing me once I left a detailed note on their door explaining my situation as a Gulf War veteran with service-connected PTSD and why I play, practice and compose music. I'm so glad they're gone. Maybe his dragon lady daddy can teach him how to play the accordion. That'd be a hoot at the Elks Lodge.
Music is my best self-induced form of PTSD therapy, and it is a real blessing to have supportive neighbors all around me again. Maybe the neighbor bugging you about your piano playing will move out to be replaced by someone who appreciates your music.
Big hugs, positrons, and VW beeps from my Love Beetle and me! :)

@103 vennominon and @104 DonnyKlicious: Yes, I did see Dawn Wells' obituary. Sad that she died from COVID complications. Here is some classic TV trivia, after doing some Google searching on bios. There are at least five Partridges still alive from the original Partridge Family TV series" Shirley Jones is 86, bless her; Susan Dey (Laurie) is 68; Danny Bonaduce (Danny) is 61; Brian Forster (Chris) is 60, and Jeremy Gelbwaks (the original Chris) is 59. Sadly, Dave Madden (Rueben Kincaid), David Cassidy (teen heart-throb Keith) and Suzanne Crough (Tracy) have passed away.
As for the Brady Bunch cast, the four series' elders, Robert Reed (Mike Brady), Florence Henderson (Carol Brady), Ann B. Davis (Alice), and Allan John Melvin (Sam, the butcher) have all passed away. But the Brady kids are all still here--all six of them: Barry WIlliams (Greg) is 66, Maureen McCormick (Marcia, Marcia, Marcia) is 64, Christopher Knight (Peter) is 63, Eve Plumb (Jan) is 62, Mike Lookinland (Bobby) just turned 60, and Susan Olsen (Cindy) is 59.
WOW----Tina Louise, at 86--Ginger--is the sole survivor of Gilligan's Island!
Rest in peace fellow castways Dawn Wells (Mary Ann), Russell Johnson (Professor Roy Hinkley), Jim Backus (Thurston Howell, III), Natalie Schaffer (Mrs. Lovey Howell), Alan Hale, Jr. (the Skipper, Captain Jonas Grumby), and of course---Gilligan!!---Bob Denver.
Rest in peace, too, Brady cast members Robert Reed, Florence Henderson, Ann B. Davis, Allan John Melvin, and Partridge Family cast members Dave Madden, David Cassidy, and Suzanne Crough. Thanks for the memories.


@108. Fichu. Sorry, I got confused. I read the first paragraph of your post @46 as pertaining to the other letter and suggesting that the lesbian friend was making DRAMA party to an abusive relationship. This comes about when the comment someone's trying hastily to write about is on a different page (is an X or XX comment, not an XXX comment) and is not readily accessible. Sorry. Incidentally, I think the lodging sister might just be structured, sustained encouragement to move out.

Also thanks to Nocute @36 for a full treatment and for reading my comment. The friend DRAMA writes about is the person she (and we, indirectly) can help, right? To some degree, I think that one person, one-sidedly, can turn down the dial on a relationship with lots of screaming and shouting. She can just be the person who doesn't call the police. It's not as easy as that to do ... but DRAMA's friend can do something else to de-escalate, like leave. Can she start trying to do this?


111- Harriet-- No problem. I just saw my name and wondered.


Ms Grizelda - Very comprehensive. I had just seen a day or two before Ms Wells' appearance in one of the Columbo movies


@113 vennominon: And I just went down Memory Lane, too, speaking of Peter Falk's Lieutenant Columbo. Last night Griz practiced conducting Ernest Gold's full orchestral score to Stanley Kramer's "Comedy to End All Comedies", It's a Mad, Mad, Mad, Mad World (1963), in which Peter Falk had a bit part toward the end of the movie as a wisecracking cab driver.


Griz@110~ Ironic that Tina Louise is the only one left. Apparently, she was universally disliked by the rest of the cast.


@115 DonnyKlicious: Tina Louise was universally disliked by the rest of the Gilligan's Island cast? Yoiks! For being too glamorous and glittery? Vanity? Narcissism on the set? Real-life catfights with Dawn over who was the fairest of them all? Did Tina's TV role of being a movie star go to her head? What price Hollywood........


@115 DonnyKlicious: I'm only curious, but I wonder if that's partly why Judith Baldwin took over Tina Louise's original role of Ginger Grant in the made-for-TV film, Rescue of the Castaways on Gilligan's Island (1978).


Griz @110, amen to music as therapy. I came to a (voluntary! as it's been confirmed I'm within my rights to practice prior to 9pm any night of the week) arrangement with Mr Grump upstairs that I'd practice on Wednesdays and Fridays, weekend afternoons, and never on Sundays and Mondays since those are the two nights he most needs peace and quiet as he's getting up early for work. Okay but sometimes I am busy with something else on a Wednesday or Friday, so that means I only get one evening a week!? Recently the government announced new restrictions on a Thursday, which sent me into a depression since the restrictions were basically "you know how you planned to keep yourself sane over the winter by never going out but hosting small dinner parties, well you can't." I tried to cheer myself up with some music, having not played the night before, and got a nasty text. His excuse is that he's studying, I can't wait until he finishes his qualification so I can start nagging him again about when he's moving out.

Bobby from the Brady Bunch being 60 is a depressing thought! :)

Harriet @111, when the comments go to a second page (or when I want to be able to compare a comment to the original letter) I find clicking on the number 2 and opening the second page of comments in a new window helpful.


BiDanFan @118: I highly recommend that you take up the bagpipes.


@110: Griz, he must be a delicate little flower, if he's disturbed by alto flute!!!

Lurkers: one of the challenges of playing alto flute is getting much sound out of it. It has a quiet, delicate sound.

Oh, and re what he told you: "He claimed to be a trumpet virtuoso who soloed with the Seattle Philharmonic but gave it up because his father was a real 'dragon lady'."

That sounds awfully sketchy.

Also, the Seattle Philharmonic, according to its website, is a nonprofessional or semi-professional orchestra. I mean it's always nice to get to solo with an orchestra, and I am sure that they enjoy performing together, but it's not exactly a prestigious gig in the same way as if he'd soloed with, say, the Seattle Symphony.

Speaking of the Seattle Symphony, until recently, it was conducted by Gerard Schwartz, who himself was a true trumpet virtuoso who was principal trumpet of the New York Philharmonic before he got stick fever.

Back to you and your music. Since you like alto flute, enjoy the following performance:

Why a viola concerto? You'll see. :-) (I once met the composer. He's an amazingly talented clarinetist, and a very nice fellow.)

@118: BiDi, are you aware that music therapy is a profession? In case you're not, it is, in fact, a thing. When in school, I took a music therapy course. I learned that, although I wasn't interested in pursuing it myself, I was intrigued by it and glad that it exists.

Also, bummer about your practice situation. You should be able to practice every day, at reasonable hours.


Griz@116~ Tina Louise’s manager sold her the show as an actor marooned on the island with many wacky characters. She joined the cast thinking she’d be the star and was reportedly resentful when she wasn’t. She reportedly hated her time on the show and kept to herself on set, typically not interacting with the cast and crew much, for instance, eating lunch by herself. Tina Louise was from a famous acting school and had left success to be on a TV show where she wasn’t the star.


@118 BiDanFan: I am really sorry about your Mr. Grump from upstairs. That's really the shits.
I had equal woes with the Prodigal One. The same bullshit---he was uptight, and went supposedly to bed early to get up in the wee hours and commute what, 125 miles one way five days a week because of a high paying job? Moaning and wailing about the motorcycle he bought that ---surprise!---blew out its engine after about four months of use and bumper-to-bumper abuse on the Interstate.
Meanwhile, my depression got worse as I, too, had to deal with his hideous neighbor "restrictions". I could not play past 9 p.m.! Finally, I left the note on his door. If my elaborating so far as to inform Prodigal the Great of my status as a Gulf War veteran with service-connected PTSD who medically needs music as my # 1 source of therapy, and that scared the shit out of him, well good. I haven't seen him or his equally skittish trophy deb girlfriend since. Here's to when your snob upstairs finishes school and moves out. :)

Yeah--that is wild about Mike Lookinland (Bobby Brady) being 60 now. But he's only 4 years older than I am in real life, so that makes sense to me. We're all getting older.

@119 fubar: Either that or the accordion---like, for instance, Judy's little number in Revenge of the Nerds.......'So I say I gotta be meeeeeeee......'
I'd pay admission. :)

@120 Musicbiker: I soon found out that the Prodigal One was as much the lame story teller as he was uppity and entitled. On his first night of pound-pound-pounding oh-so frantically on my door, he had claimed to not have gotten any sleep for the past 46 hours. Poor baby.
This entirely ridiculous episode has a happy ending, however. I think I ran into the Prodigal One's "dragon lady daddy" on his son's moving day last summer. Nothing was said, and Mr. Trumpet Prodigy wasn't at that moment outside, loading furniture and belongings into a big, fancy moving van. But I had some good vibes. It wasn't until later last fall when I met my current, much more music-friendly neighbors, now living in the upstairs unit directly above me. And they like my classic VW Beetle, too. :)

@121 DonnyKlicious: Tina Louise was born Tina Blacker, in New York City. I read that, early in her career in her bio where she studied at the Neighborhood Playhouse in Manhattan, and had worked on Broadway prior to Gilligan's Island. A role in a Bette Davis film in 1962 was Tina Louise's big break. That's sad that she was apparently misled into believing that she was the big star of Gilligan's Island. That makes me think of an episode of Happy Days a good decade later. The big joke in reference to the family's nightly viewing of Gilligan's Island was that 'if the castaways could build huts, a lab for the Professor, and a theater for Ginger, why couldn't they just fix the boat and go home?' *
*At one point in the episode, two Happy Days cast members say the same line: Marion Ross (Mrs. Marion Cunningham--still alive at 92!!), and Henry Winkler, (Arthur "The Fonz" Fonzerelli, now 75).


@121 DonnieK
"Tina Louis...thinking she’d be the star and was reportedly resentful when she wasn’t"

Interesting. I'd guessed it might have had something to do with being cast as 'the movie star' when Dawn Wells was so much better looking.


@120 Musicbiker: Thank you for sharing the link to the amazing alto flute solo! I'm glad I came back to this late part of the comment thread--I almost missed the link.
Sadly, however, when I entered the YouTube address, the video was unavailable. I am intrigued that it is a viola concerto, and that the composer is also a highly gifted clarinetist.


@124 Griz: I just tried again. The YouTube link works for me. Try again! Here it is again:

I'll give you a small hint about what's in the video. It does have an alto flute, but you'll really enjoy what else is there. Plus, it's a really cool viola work. I hope you like it!

Oh, and I love air-cooled Beetles! Tell me more.


@125 Musicbiker: I'm sorry--I tried to download the link a second time, and still no dice. All I keep getting is a YouTube kickback notice on my 2019 iMac screen, saying "Video Unavailable". No luck for me, I guess. Do you have another link I could try?


@125 Musicbiker: As for air-cooled Beetles, I am blessed with a classic 1974 Red SuperBeetle Convertible that was once my mother's car back in the day. My beloved, recently restored Love Beetle is the love of my life, and a very effective emotional support vehicle in my finding solace.
Currently my VW is in winter hibernation right now, and I miss his company like crazy, but (sigh) it is just as well. The winter weather right now in the PNW is nasty, and said to get even worse soon. I drive my Love Beetle in the warm, sunny spring and summer months when we hit the beaches and he can help keep me young, And by my keeping him safely tucked away in a friend's garage during the fall and winter, it helps keep him automotively younger. :)


Griz: I suspect that there is a setting blocking your computer from viewing that YouTube video. The video is available, and I can view it right this moment on my older Mac, using that URL.

You are in the U.S., right? Sometimes videos are enabled in one country and disabled in another. But, if that were the case, you would get an error message stating as much.

Did you try it on your cellphone?

Is there any chance that you made an error when cutting and pasting the URL? It's too bad that they aren't live in these comments.

I posted the "share" URL that YouTube generates.

Try searching YouTube using any or all of the following information: "Widmann: Viola Concerto ∙ hr-Sinfonieorchester ∙ Antoine Tamestit ∙ Andrés Orozco-Estrada"

I hope this helps. If not, I'm not sure what else to send you.

Re Beetles: nice! I'd love to have one. Maybe one of these days. I suppose I should get one sooner rather than later; after all, they're not getting any younger! Nor am I. LOL.