Savage Love Jan 19, 2021 at 3:47 pm

Case Disclosed

JOE NEWTON

Comments

108

@Nocute, thanks.

You’re not wrong either, and I really think the best course of action is for BETTER to go back to his counselor for more work. In the meantime, hiring that hungry English major grad student (who can be hot and well hung, or find a picture to use of someone who is) to provide acceptable fantasies is a good meet-in-the-middle step that, critically, does not require GF to do what is ultimately BETTER’s task.

Whether GF is being GGG because she’s being nice to him or because she’s getting something out of it is looking a gift horse in the mouth. She’s willing to do this. She’s willing to do the work. BETTER just needs to step up and do the work to meet her in the middle.

@EricaP, I don’t know about should she leave him, but I hope this is weighing into her assessments of how partnering with this man will look and what she does with that information.

109

“ If the whole kink is tied up in BETTER's thinking that some guy who's better than he is, is having sex with his girlfriend and getting her off better than he, BETTER could, he has to believe that.”

Again a comment on why BETTER needs to do some work: this may not be something GF can do. If she’s too average (like most of us) to pull a major hottie, or if she has very good reasons for requiring absolute discretion, or if she simply can’t find someone she wants to fuck, or this stupid plague keeps going on, then this is not so much like telling a gay man to settle for fucking women as it is like dealing with a centaur fetishist: not gonna happen in real life so it’s time to improvise and get creative.

Right now, BETTER’s line of thinking is laser focused on the fantasy and he’s not contemplating the boundaries of reality. That’s a fixable problem...if and only if he’s willing to do the work.

110

Another possibility for BETTER is to find a cam guy, who can talk super dirty with GF and rub BETTER’s nose in it. As long as GF is willing, that’s a Covid-safe meet in the middle that doesn’t put all the work and all the risk on GF. As a paid professional, cam guy can be hot as hell and hung like domestic livestock and BETTER’s jollies don’t depend on whether GF is able to find a super hot man on her own.

The big question is, will BETTER accept that, or will he consider it less-than? Again, off to the therapist to learn how to constructively manage his expectations.

111

Griz @97, don't worry, you haven't offended me! Sorry I didn't see that as requiring a reply, but I'll reply now, and say I'm not 50 yet but thank you for the well wishes. :)

Lava @93, you want to get muted too? ;) You should try it. I wish Facebook had the mute option. Less confrontational than blocking; you can see that someone is there and has said something, you just don't need to be subjected to its odious contents. I am loving the mental images of our board's misogynists with gaffer tape over their mouths. As soon as someone who may or may not be you-know-who appeared, I decided I spent far too many hours of my life talking to that person and am glad I now have an option other than "just scroll past." My self-restraint skills are insufficient for that, and now I've put my fingers in my ears instead, la la la I can't hear you. If I want aggro, I have Facebook. No time for trolls here.

Nocute @100, congrats on the hunsky! As Dan alluded, BETTER must "know" FWB's dick is smaller because he asked and she told. And as Dan noted, it's possible she lied. How many women are going to tell a fragile-ego'd new partner, "His dick is bigger, but I prefer you anyway"? And how many women would volunteer that? Nope, he asked, and she gave the answer she thought he wanted. I am presuming he has judged FWB's appearance with his own two eyes, so not much can be done to change his opinion on that. So I agree with you that if this guy is too picky, Ms BETTER should lie (by prior mutual consent) to give him the illusion that she's out banging Adonises, which he needs to make this work. If he wants to watch, I think they are in sex worker territory.

Slinky @104: "There is zero guarantee that GF will be able to pull the kind of man who gets BETTER’s rocks off." Great point, and I think men sometimes forget this. Also, we have no way of knowing who's got a big dick until they get their pants off. I suppose in the Tinder era, requesting a dick pic is a thing. But as you say, the Tinder era is on hold until after the pandemic -- and also as you say, this may not interest Ms BETTER at all. Few women, given other options, go for random strangers. This woman has another option, someone she knows and likes and trusts and wants to fuck. BETTER, dude, that's rare -- it may be years before she finds someone she feels this comfortable with, and he may not look the way you want him to look. I think a better approach would be for him to adjust his attitude, if possible, toward seeing ANYONE she wants to bang as a threat. He could imagine how humiliated he would feel if she ran off with a "lower value" (in his mind) man, and try to feel turned on by that threat.

Nocute @105, admittedly projecting, but one interpretation of BETTER's letter is that Ms BETTER is non-monogamous by nature -- she was simultaneously shagging both BETTER and FWB until, we can surmise, BETTER asked her to commit to an official, monogamous relationship. "She ended a longstanding FWB arrangement with a coworker when we began to get serious a year ago." It seems to me that, but for BETTER, she'd still be banging this dude, and when BETTER mentions cucking she sees this as a way to have her cake and eat it. Someone who felt pressured wouldn't describe someone as "perfect" or continue to advocate for this particular guy ("she keeps saying he's the perfect bull"). In my reading, she wants to bang him, and may be pissed off that he's made this offer of opening the relationship on her side but then vetoing her choice.

So, whether he should take a chance on FWB depends, I guess, on how much she wants to bang him. As EricaP @106 says, what does he have to lose by giving this a try? He doesn't seem to realise the difference between fantasy and reality, and that he will need to pick one or the other. Lots of people have fantasies involving sex with Chris Hemsworth or Brad Pitt (a nod to you, Grizelda). Very few people get to actually bang men who look like Chris Hemsworth or Brad Pitt, and we accept this. So must BETTER.

And good point about how, or indeed whether, he is meeting HER needs. He isn't in this area, what about the others?

Slinky @110, another good suggestion.

112

@57. Bi. Well, I can't fault commenters for not having (or taking) an 'interest' in BETTER's case. The sense I have, though, is that different kinks (or just kinks and non-normative kinds of sex) are adjacent to each other. Anyone who has entertained a 'special guest' as part of a couple--which will include many not into cucking; many who would not describe themselves as a part of a cucking scene--is likely, to me, to have some insight into the dynamics of cucking--and, quite possibly, some interest in the lw's problem. So I am maybe a little surprised that these readers have not chipped in.

What I feel here, actually, is that in gradually dropping his 'brattish', unaccommodating manner, Daniel Savage has become less and less the rallying-point for people who think of themselves (i.e. a broad coalition of people who think, or thought, of themselves) as a dissident sexual minority. The people who are just not 'white breads', not the heteronomative monogamous, because they have a different attitude--and are gay, poly, kinky etc. on the basis of this personally radical attitude--think to a decreasing degree that they represent a common body spoken for by Savage. Members of specific kink cultures or sub-cultures are less likely to presume that they understand, by intuitive sympathy, the practices of other subcultures; players in dungeons and unicorns defer to hotwives. This is a change in the broader culture, too--which has become more polite, more 'kidgloves-on'.

And (such is my perception) at SL the hotwives are departing stage left and the grammarians entering stage right.

I understand why BETTER isn't getting much sympathy. I was personally cutting him some slack because he hasn't made a cucking relationship work before. Of course his gf's willingness to cuck him with one particular guy (esp. in a pandemic, esp. the first time they're doing it) is a factor that will have to weigh extraordinarily heavily with the bull they end up choosing. I can't think he was just ventilating about being hotter and having a bigger dick than some other guy--he had a genuine problem. Maybe it is not helpful to him to conceive cucking as something he very much wants and that his gf might just about be disposed to grant...? That sort of conception seems a recipe for dissatisfaction.... In an ideal cuck-hotwife partnership, isn't the sex with the bull something that the partners (maybe with different motivations or headsets) enter into with equal enthusiasm?

If this relationship doesn't pan out for BETTER, he should put any shame or embarrassment away, maybe, and look for a woman who wants to hotwife.

113

Harriet @112, and since you made your observation that fifteen comments had shockingly come and gone without a comment on BETTER, nearly a hundred more have been posted, many by the regulars who indeed comment on situations they have personal experience with and situations they don't. Does this set your mind at ease?

I'm not sure I follow your point (which wouldn't be the first time) about a correlation/causation link between Dan's snark level and the extent to which he appeals to kinksters. On the contrary, I much prefer the Dan who is careful to respect everyone's pronouns over the 90s Dan who once exhorted a gay man, "DON'T MESS AROUND WITH BISEXUALS." If the ratio of pedants to kinksters is increasing, perhaps that's due to other sites like Fetlife providing answers to kinksters' questions. As for your thoughts on kinkster pecking orders, I have no experience of that so won't comment.

"Maybe it is not helpful to him to conceive cucking as something he very much wants and that his gf might just about be disposed to grant...? That sort of conception seems a recipe for dissatisfaction..." But seems the reality for most men who are interested in cucking. BETTER himself said that he "FINALLY" found someone interested in participating in this kink. I think there are far more women out there who "might just about be disposed to" participate in cucking, provided that they have a great deal of control over the bull and the circumstances, than are independently turned on by the idea -- let's call them natural hotwives. Sure, they're out there -- the swinging community looks like a good place to look for one -- but, as Dan says, some kinksters are born and some are made. His odds may be better if he accepts that he's fortunate to have met someone who might just about be disposed to grant, and that if he defers to her choice of bull on this occasion and she enjoys herself, there's a higher chance future bulls they both find suitable will come along.

114

I now see that commenters like nocute @100, who have enjoyed threesomes but would not call themselves hotwives, are entering the conversation. Yes--I see they bring a lot to the table. I agree with everything nocute says, not least because she is turning over the same considerations that were moving me. Possibly the place you, Bi, and she come out at--that he should think of going for it--is different to mine--that he should feel confident in saying 'no' if it's a definite 'no'; but we can't know all the circumstances, and I feel both sides would be able to switch positions if we knew more. There's an extra piece of perhaps het lore introduced by nocute I didn't know about--Jerry Falwell's proclivities, which I'm pleased to learn (and, in another sense, not pleased to learn).

@104. slinky. Why are you talking about 'his penis' when it's his mind that's involved? It's his mind and her mind. If he's not the one banging her when, at his urgings, she's out fucking the bull, it would seem more purely his mind.

Everything you say is of course right, particularly the point about how it would be valuable for BETTER to have someone to talk with about re his narrow criteria for who can bull who isn't his gf, e.g. a therapist (or someone who has happily cucked for a while).

@105. Nocute. Yes on all counts.

115

Harriet @114, I don't think anyone's arguing that he has no right to a veto, to decide that this doesn't sufficiently fit his fantasy or that he is obligated to go for it. Indeed, nobody is obligated to do anything they don't want to do. I think what people like Nocute and I are saying is, you can't always get what you wa-a-ant, and his choice may not be between this bull versus his ideal bull, but between this bull and not realising this fantasy at all, and between those two options he should choose carefully.

116

@113. Bi. Are kinksters now seen as belonging to siloes (or atomised groups) or to a broad, possibly joyous or unruly culture of sexual nonconformity? I think there's been a cultural change.

The lw, BETTER, said 'finally', maybe, because he hasn't been open e.g. on dating profiles about wanting to be cucked. He's been fishing in the sea at large. His odds would be better looking for hotwives. I do not know (or rather I have heard, anecdotally, different things) whether male cucks outnumber hotwives in the way that the male babies in ABDL outnumber the female caretakers.

117

Also, Harriet - BETTER didn't say his kink was hotwifing, he said it was cucking. Hunter may argue that these are one and the same but the jury is out. I can think that there may be quite a few more women who'd jump at a relationship that was open on her side only (hotwives) than who relish the idea of cheating to humiliate their partners.

118

@115. Bi, you and I more-or-less entirely-down-the-line agreed to begin with. I agree with @115 now. A further point: A guy who is feeling his way towards getting cucked, to me, has broken with toxic masculinity--and he gets points for me for that.

Of course this does not mean that any cuck will be free of elements of even stereotypical male presumption (in e.g. in how he wants to go about cucking).

119

BiDan@111~ Facebook DOES have a mute option. You can stop following someone without unfriending them. You won’t automatically see their posts anymore, but can check their page manually every now and then if you want to see what they’re up to, and they will still see, and can reply to your posts.

120

Harriet @118, always great when we agree!
I agree that cucking is a rejection of toxic masculinity -- but when BETTER feels his bull needs to score more points on the stereotypical masculinity scale to feel like a threat to his relationship, he kind of loses all his breaking-with-toxic-masculinity points, wouldn't you say?

Donny @119, that's not the same thing. If you unfollow someone on Facebook, you will see all their comments on other people's threads, you just won't see their 72 cat memes per day. What Fubar has created is a button that lets you hide a user's comments but still see that they made a post. Like they are opening their mouth but nothing is coming out.

121

BiDan@120~ Yes, you can see their comments on other people's posts, down in the thread, but it's easy just to skip over them and their posts no longer pop up continually on your page. An easy and practical way to ignore the ignorant without having to mess with coding and such which I am always skeptical of. I guess I don't have that many "friends" who constantly annoy me and thereby need a button. Also, I only read other people's comments on the few posts that I'm really interested in, so opportunity for annoyance is greatly reduced.

On a side note, the SL comments have been more or less troll free lately (knock on wood), not like days gone by when He Who Must Not Be Named stalked these hallowed halls. That saddens me in a way... what we need is the OCCASIONAL troll who has the good sense to stir the pot a bit and then retreat back into his cave, but I suppose that defeats the purpose of being a troll.

122

Donny @121, never fear, I am very familiar with snoozing and unfollowing. I'm just saying that the "Mute" function Fubar has devised works differently, and may I say, better.
Raindrop and Philosophy School Dropout are the occasional trolls you seek, are they not?

123

@112, 114: Harriet, you are incorrect: I have had two boyfriends who were into hotwifing, so I have had experience with it. One of the guys (see, a word that's neither "boy" nor "man," with no folksy, square-dance-y connotations --"gal"--no old-fashioned and class-related ones--"lady"--and no clinical overtones--female) didn't need to be present, as long as I shared all our dirty texts with him and told him all the juicy details when we next had sex (which means that if the sex wasn't sufficiently great or acrobatic or whatever, I could correct that deficiency when I told him all about it). The other boyfriend really liked to watch, so he was present when we had sex and then it often turned into he-and-I having sex after our guest star had come (or should I write "cummed" so we know that I'm referring to an orgasm with ejaculation?).

I guess you weren't here for the "nocutename/Hunter definition-of-cuckold wars." I make a distinction between hotwifing--which I have done, regardless of marital status--and cuckolding, which to me has an element of humiliation in it. This aspect was non existent in my two relationships. The thrill for the man in the hotwife relationship (as I understand it) is in sharing his sexy wife/girlfriend with someone else. He thinks she's so good in bed, he wants someone else to enjoy the experience. He's probably a voyeur, too. In addition to being turned on by watching or hearing explicitly about sex, both of my boyfriends got off mentally by thinking about how hot I was, how lucky this other guy was, and knowing that at the end of the evening, I was going home with my boyfriend; my PREFERENCE for my boyfriend was actually reinforced, and both men liked that aspect of getting what they know someone else wants or being chosen as someone who could have her pick (not that I, a middle-aged, overweight woman, had my pick of any man out there. As slinky and EricaP have said, beautiful people are often only interested in other beautiful people. Fortunately, there were attractive-to-me men that were also attracted to me).

As neither of my boyfriends wanted to be sexually humiliated, I was less constrained in my choice of extra-relationship partners (I don't like to use the terms "bull" or "stag" when talking about my own hotwife experiences, because neither of the boyfriends and I used those terms, which to me have strong cuckold overtones--although "stag"is apparently what Urban Dictionary calls men who want to share their wives/gfs with another man). Indeed, I chose the guest stars, and I prioritize feeling comfortable over penis size. Often these guest stars were former fwbs of mine. Neither boyfriend had an issue with that. On the contrary, in each relationship, it reinforced that sense that he was the one I CHOSE, that he was the one I wanted; I could (theoretically) be the girlfriend of the guest star, but instead he (actual boyfriend) was lucky enough to be the one I was really with.

These were how my hotwife experiences worked. Your milage may vary.

Since the most salient aspect of my submissiveness tends to run more towards humiliation or a sense of surrendering my autonomy, rather than physical pain, this situation worked for me, too. And ultimately, doesn't the prospective stag or cuck want his partner to have a good time?
In the case of BETTER's letter, it doesn't seem as if he gives her much consideration.

124

Harriet@114, I say about his penis because ultimately this is about BETTER’s sexual gratification. His brain might be at play, or hers, but at the end of the day he’s gonna be jerking it.

It’s like fancy restaurants. We might talk about the atmosphere and the ambiance, the wonderful conversations and getting to know someone, but all the ambiance in the world doesn’t mean a hill of beans if the food is bad or if you get a big check for the “ambiance” without being served any food whatsoever.

125

Late Congratulations, nocute. Big Big good luck award this week.

126

BETTER needs to adjust his mind, he’s the sub here, not the Dom. Isn’t this a kink, or maybe just half a one.
Stop these self important thoughts, for a start. Imagine how this man’s prowess sends women into ecstasy. Be thrown by feelings of jealousy and arousal. You know, develop the sub mind or change his status.

127

Lady/ Ladies, dicey one. Though in the song, “ The Lady Is A Tramp”, it’s the best one to fit, and gives the word flair and fun. Context is all.

128

It’s difficult to give fun, to a word. I’ll change that to,a sense of fun.

129

Mr Registered - There's certainly something in that, though I don't think I've ever heard "taisez" mispronounced.
xxx
Ms Cummins - Males in sales (how Seussian) - at least inside sales rather than outside - often seem to have higher than their genuine Kinsey scores (hence its attraction for all those assimilationists). How could you determine the intent behind his presentation?
xxx
Ms Fan - Gays calling each other "girl" has rather a retro feel to it; nowadays it seems the sort of thing that would stir the Woke Police into sanctions. Granted, I never knew that many people in that sort of crowd (it's far less general than the inference you invite), but when spoken to women it was both a mark of approval and usually a signal of some closeness.
xxx
Ms Fan/M?? Harriet - I see why you think that, but going in for being a cuckold seems overall more an embrace of toxic standards for masculinity than a renunciation.

130

Flair probably in same boat. Adjust accordingly.

131

Ms Cute - A radio adaptation of Love in a Cold Climate has just been uploaded to YouTube with Amanda Root as Fanny, just under an hour and a half long and well worth the listen, though I thought Alfred and Cedric miscast. The channel is one that gets taken down and reborn. It also has a radio adaptation of The Waves if you like Mrs Woolf.

132

vennominon @129 "going in for being a cuckold seems overall more an embrace of toxic standards for masculinity than a renunciation."

Yes, agreed. It's an eroticization of toxic masculinity -- especially when, as with BETTER, it involves objectifying his female partner and trying to control her sexuality.

133

@131: Thanks, Mr. Ven! I have a fairly tedious project that needs doing, and listening to this as I work will make everything better.

@125: Thank you for the good wishes LavaGirl.

134

BiDanFan @120: An earlier version of the SlogBlocker replaces muted users' comments with "Mahna mahna" but I decided that "..." would be neutral. Maybe I should make it an option?

135

BiDanFan @122: SlogBlocker "block" is akin to FB "unfollow" because the other SLOG person can still see your comments. "Mute" lets you know they're blabbing, and also see what they're written when someone responds positively (or otherwise) and you're sufficiently braced.

I'm trying to figure out how to implement a "banish" setting that would strip replies to blocked people (or in my case, the one blocked person who inspired the thing), but it would require some fancy parsing.

136

@131: I just listened to the radio play of Love in a Cold Climate, and it was delightful. I know that some characters/story lines had to be cut so as to keep it short, but I did miss young, callow, self-absorbed Fabrice.

Anyway, thanks for pointing me towards ir.

137

My pleasure, nocute. Oh.. Joe just started singing..
“ Take your coat off”, as I started writing. I listen to it so often, I must have know unconsciously this song was coming up. Made me think of you.
We can be sisters, yeah? Cultural differences just give it energy and life.
“ You Can Leave Your Hat On.”

138

Ms Cute - Colour me pleased to have mentioned it. Ms Root also voiced Fanny Price in a radio play of Mansfield Park. Having three hours, that one did get to include much of the young material. That one was memorable for how the narrator (Hannah Gordon as Miss Austen) occasionally interacted slightly with the characters.

139

@111 BiDanFan: Big cyber hugs, positrons, and VW beeps coming right back atcha!
XOXOXO, Griz and her Love Beetle :)

140

@96: Admittedly, my latest song parody was something that just came out freely, like a sigh of relief and a splash of fresh water, so I ran with it. Otherwise, Griz is ready like most of us to go onward, upward, and forward with the welcome President Joe Biden and Vice President Kamala Harris Administration. :)

141

Venn @129: "Going in for being a cuckold seems overall more an embrace of toxic standards for masculinity than a renunciation." Yes, I'd agree. Why is it humiliating for another man to have sex with your wife or girlfriend? Because toxic masculinity says that that woman belongs to you. Cucking relies on the idea of women as men's property; he's turned on by some other man taking what is "his." And he is usually the one who wants to choose the bulls, to direct the outside interaction. A repudiation of toxic masculinity would be a relationship that is open for her benefit -- she gets to choose her other lovers; she can share or withhold the details as she likes. And so would he, as the opposite of toxic masculinity is gender equality. Cucking is, as Slinky says, all about his penis, which of course is shorthand for "all about his gratification," which I thought was clear. (Some may also think that male submission in general is feminist, but not when said men demand to top from the bottom.)

Fubar @134, ha! Or how about selected passages from the works of Gloria Steinem? ;)
Thanks for the clarifications on your different functions. I do like knowing that Slog "block" is not mutual. Mute/unmute-at-will seems useful, if you just don't have the spoons for someone's nonsense that week, but do enjoy reading their posts, as you say, when sufficiently braced. One suggestion might be "hide post," as we do have some contributors who sometimes have quality to contribute but other times get into slanging matches with other users, which the rest of us don't want to read. (I can see this being used on me, for sure, ha ha.) Banish might be difficult because it would require the hidden replies to use the @number convention, which not all commenters do at all times.
I also notice that you, yourself, can't be muted or blocked. Well played, sir. ;)

142

Griz @140, keep those parodies coming! :)

143

I think it's possible that BETTER is subconsciously engaging is self-sabotage, rather than just being conceited and ungrateful. Reading between the lines, it sounds like he's had cuckolding fantasies for a long time, but maybe doesn't have much experience with real-life dynamics. Many people are scared to pursue their deepest erotic fantasies in real life - especially when these fantasies revolve around humiliation, disempowerment and other psychological kinks - because the emotional risk is so great. Safer to keep it in the fantasy realm, where you can control every detail and play with feelings of vulnerability without actually making yourself vulnerable. Both kinky and vanilla people get stuck in their sexual "comfort zones", that they are too chickenshit to break out of. And that can be a sensible and healthy choice - not every fantasy needs to be realised - so long as it is a conscious choice that the individual has made peace with. But very often, people would ~say~ that they want something, but then create any number of insurmountable obstacles to actually prevent it from happening. Or, in some cases, try to control and micro-manage every single aspect, when the goal is supposedly to give up control.

In BETTER's case, he says that he's finally - FINALLY! - found a partner willing to cuckold him, and they've started "getting serious" about a year ago, so their relationship is still relatively new and exciting. A year is enough time to get emotionally attached, not enough to really trust someone not to break your heart. With this potential bull candidate, shit's getting real fast. "He's not attractive/hung enough" could just be a smokescreen for BETTER's anxiety/ insecurity. If this was really the whole reason, would't it be better to explore this "safe" option while continuing the search for his perfect bull? I agree that this might be something to hash out with that therapist.

Also, I'm not sure why Dan and some of the commenters assume that BETTER only thinks he's "better hung" because the girlfriend told him so? She's had a "longstanding FWB arrangement" with the other guy - I think it's very likely that they've exchanged nude photos at some point.

144

Margarita @143, you think it's very likely that a woman would show Partner 1's nudes to Partner 2?? That does not sound very likely to me. That would certainly be a violation of privacy, unless the partner had consented to it, and I can't see many straight men either asking to see exes' dick pics nor the exes consenting to have them shown. Can you explain why you think it's very likely BETTER has seen nude photos of Mr FWB?

I am in complete agreement with the rest of your post.

145

@143, 144: I'm with BDF regarding Lost Margarita's post: I agree with the first two paragraphs and not the third.

I know Dan always says that everyone shares nudes, but I don't, and an informal survey of my friends who are unmarried and dating says that lots of others don't (disclosure: my sample was restricted to people aged 45 and older, so maybe all younger people do share nudes. I will poll my daughters' friends, if they're not too mortified by me asking).

I have had my (admittedly small) share of nudes of various exes, but those photos were taken by me and hidden so well on my computer that I had a hard time finding one I wanted to delete. I typically delete if I'm no longer involved with the dude: I am aware that computers get hacked and nudes get posted--not that it's likely that anyone would be interested in seeing these particular guys. If I'm not sexually interested in someone (as is the case with most of the exes), I don't want to look at his dick, and in the case of the few men I am no longer with but for whom I still pine, seeing the photos would be not sexy, but rather too painful for me.

I have never offered to show any nudes of anyone I ever dated or had sex with to any of my friends, male, female, nb, gay, straight, or bi, and no one has ever asked to see them. None of the men I've dated have asked about the dimensions of any of my exes, either, though in trading stories, a detail or two may have been exchanged. Similarly, if any of my exes had nude photos of any of their exes, I neither asked to see them nor was offered the chance to see them. I strongly suspect that whether true or not, the girlfriend told BETTER that her former fwb was on the smaller side as a way of trying to reassure or flatter BETTER. Perhaps he asked, wanting to hear that the fwb was hung like a horse, and she didn't realize that that was what he wanted, so told him what she assumed he'd want to hear.

As for the ex-fwb being less handsome or conventionally attractive, that's something that BETTER can see for himself, though I think he's forgetting that obviously, the fwb is plenty attractive enough for the girlfriend to want to repeat having sex with him.

146

@124. Slinky. If his gf at any stage suspects the set-up's about his gratification and not hers, she's at liberty to say just that, and to withdraw from offering anything. One has to hope this is something they're both up for.

I didn't agree with you @80 when you said that demurring over his partner's choice of bull was the kink equivalent of 'preferring it with the condom off'. No--it's the kink equivalent of consent--which is mostly the straight-up version of consent. The commensensical riposte to this is that it's the woman who is 'putting her body in the way', the woman who is going to be doing the cucking. Obviously this is true; but it's also the existing couple, as well. Not granting this seems to me unsympathetic to cucking as a sexual practice and subculture.

@120. Bi. I don't feel that BETTER has culpably stereotyped or dehumanised a potential bull in seeing him only as a good-looker (or not) with a big cock (or not). Or rather he has stereotyped him, in a limited way; but it's of the essence of the kinky sex they'll be having--that all three will consensually be having--that the bull consents to be seen for the purposes of having sex in these very restricted terms. On one level, they all know there's more to him than that, and on another they fantasise and play along with the kink, which sexualises and simplifies the bull role. Allowing yourself to be seen reductively, to be used as a means and not an end (as it were), is going to be central to lots of kink--and also casual sex. I wouldn't think I was more than a bundle of physical attributes (and perhaps a manner) to the numerical majority of my historical sex partners.

@123. Nocute. I am sorry I got it wrong on a matter of fact when I said that you had never hotwifed. If we define a 'cuck' as someone who is pleasurably humiliated by the thought, or fact, of his female partner fucking another man, and a 'male hotwifer', for want of a better term, as someone who finds this arousing but not shaming or humiliating, then I think we can say that the cuck and the hotwifer represent different sexual types. That is, as far as I understand the terms of the debate between you and Hunter, I would be on your side of the difference. I think cucking perhaps more of a distinctive kink, with its own culture, semi-formalised protocols and rituals, etc.

I have enjoyed and not enjoyed threesomes. The not-enjoyable ones were where the guy my bf had brought in was not attracted to me--it was only in my bf's head that the third (usually a twink in presentation, and vers) should find me / the idea of me and my partner / the idea of all three people together (and his 'gifting' me to the guy) sexy. Otherwise exceptionally giving up control during sex and being fucked at his behest is something I found very releasing and stimulating.

147

@129. venn. I see toxic masculinity as more normatively punching your gf in the face when she flirts with another guy.

148

BDF and NCN @144-145, because they're seriously discussing bringing the ex-FWB into their relationship as their bull, and BETTER has some very exacting standards regarding the bull's looks and cock size. This isn't your standard issue ex relationship (I agree that most people wouldn't show their new partner nude pictures of their ex under "normal" circumstances). But I think that BETTER would very much WANT to see any potential bull's body and cock upfront, seeing as his fantasy apparently hinges on the other man being attractive (to him) and having a bigger dick. That, combined with the certainty with which he says he's "better hung", makes me think that he has in fact seen some objective evidence.

149

Harriet @146 re me @120, I don't dispute your analysis but I don't see what it has to do with my comment? I elaborated @141 as to why cucking is an outgrowth of toxic masculinity rather than a rejection of it. And wow, your bar @147 is high -- toxic masculinity includes a LOT more than physical abuse. Indeed, it includes the idea that he has entitlement over whom she talks to, whom she flirts with, whom she has sex with -- and isn't that what cucking is, if he feels entitled to make or influence those decisions?

Margarita @148, okay, but presuming BETTER did ask to see a dick pic, surely asking to see a pic would have come after simply asking "does he have a big cock?" It seems likelier that he'd want to see proof of a yes than a no.
And if she did show him photos of FWB without asking FWB, that was unethical of her.

150

@149. Bi. It was a consideration of whether BETTER is losing all his breaking-with-toxic-masculinity points in seeing bulls in such narrow and stereotyped terms. My answer was (roughly) 'possibly but not necessarily'.

I was giving a 'normative' or central example of what toxic masculinity was. Obviously there's a lot more to it than slapping women round the face when threatened.... But I think many 'conventional' relationships involve men controlling women. I think it's pervasive; it's a norm. It's worth saying it's bad once again.

Can a cuck legitimately disbar flirting? No, I think that's just an asshole.

151

Assuming BETTER is not going to be present for the cucking/fucking it's relatively easy to Photoshop a bigger dick on any photo if you have any experience in such software or have a friend who is.

BTW, I am on a personal crusade against Adobe which has gone to a subscription method for its software, thereby denying you access to any images YOU have created unless you pay their monthly extortion for the rest of your life. I have switched, and encourage everyone to switch to Affinity software which is almost as good, and certainly far superior when you consider its one-time payment. https://affinity.serif.com/en-us/

152

Harriet @150, it's an interesting question -- "what is toxic masculinity?" Your answer seems to be men behaving in toxic ways. But I see it a bit differently. I see it as fundamentally oppressive and dysfunctional ways men believe they should think and behave. I don't think that a man punching his partner for flirting would qualify as toxic masculinity, because there is NOT a commonly held belief that this is reasonable behaviour for a man, not in this day and age at least. If you asked most men if this was okay, they would say no. So that's not toxic masculinity, it is simply violence. Toxic masculinity is toxic because it's not widely recognised to not be okay. For instance, feeling like one is better than another guy because one's penis is larger. I would venture that a large number of men feel this way, and -- this is key -- they don't see that this is harmful or wrong. So no, I don't see physical violence as a normative example of toxic masculinity, rather an extreme one.

153

I would say the normative example of toxic masculinity is "men don't show/talk about their feelings." So widespread and SO damaging.

154

Speaking of words, cul-de-sac is a weird one. Phallic reference, is my take. Shaped like one sac, one scrotum. Another difficult word, that one. Scrotum.

155

One ball, scrotum describes whole, doesn’t it? I’ve felt enough of them, I really should know the correct words.
/ Men do show their feelings, Fan. Usually angry ones. It’s the more vulnerable feelings that are hard to come by. For the toxic ones. Culturally trained to not cry as boys, yet see men express anger and so the feelings get channelled down a restrictive path.
Trump, perfect example of TM. And Allowed to behave like a pig and still be loved. No woman would get away with that.

156

Who's hungry for the first post-Trump Double Whammy honors (@169)?
Tick...tick...tick...

157

BiDanFan @ 153: What are these "feelings" of which you speak? How does one find them?

158

Harriet @146 said: "No--it's the kink equivalent of consent... it's also the existing couple [doing the cucking]. Not granting this seems to me unsympathetic to cucking as a sexual practice and subculture."

If they both share the cucking fetish, then, yes, she should accept that he gets a real say.

But if she has zero interest in the cucking fetish except to be GGG then he should be more accepting of her preferences for other men.

Suppose a vanilla woman starts dating a foot fetishist, whose fetish focuses on uncomfortably high heels, and seeing his partner struggling to walk.

If she finds that erotic, then they'll be able to agree on shoes.

But if she doesn't, then he should be more accepting if she wants platform heels that aren't so uncomfortable. Or he could accept that she only wears the uncomfortable shoes when sitting down or lying in bed.

The person with the kink needs to be realistic about how far their partner will go, or they'll drive the vanilla person away.

159

Fubar @ 157
It’s not about “finding,” but rather not ignoring nor being told one way or another that boys/teenagers/men are not expected to show emotions and affection.

160

Lava @155, yes, the two feelings men are allowed to show as freely as they like are anger and lust. And indeed, these are the two feelings women are punished for expressing. Toxic all round.

EricaP @158, I agree. Harriet seems to be conflating cucking and swinging to some extent. As usual we are missing key information -- is Ms BETTER keen to pick up where she left off with this FWB, or is she reluctant (as most of the cucking letters we've read in this column would lead us to believe is probable) but willing to make an exception for this one man? And what would her level of interest be in other men once we're no longer hogtied by Covid? Safety wise, there is just one option now. In the future, there will be many options. Would any of those options be men they both find attractive? (Have they window-shopped Tinder together?) If she really wants to bang him, I think he should agree, since GGG does in fact go both ways. If she's meh, I reckon he plays his veto card this time, but approaches the next man -- a man she won't have already dumped in favour of him -- with a more open mind.

CMD @159, I think Fubar was joking.

161

BDF@149, I guess so, though if the girlfriend "keeps saying he's the perfect bull", I can also see BETTER responding with "okay, let's see some more pictures of him", before concluding that "he's not right for me" based on cock size. I agree that sharing naked pictures of someone else without their consent is unethical, but I think that a lot of people in this situation would just do it if their partner asked, without giving it much thought. I had a female playpartner who showed intimate pictures of her and I to her male SO because he wanted to see them. It would have been nice if she had asked me first, but I wasn't all that fussed about it.

Another thought: if there were no pictures, and BETTER just assumed he's "better hung" because of some misguided sexual flattery the girlfriend told early on, before she knew about BETTER's kinks - surely she's had plenty of opportunities to walk that statement back, now that she knows what makes him tick, and assuming she wants BETTER to say yes to FWB? If she hasn't, maybe it's true.

As a slight tangent, maybe I'm atypical in this, but I don't think I'd even be able to rate my penis-having exes in order of size. The outliers at either end of the bell curve, sure, but not the more-or-less average majority. I can say what the sex was like, but generally not "did Lover A have a bigger dick than Lover B?" What are we even measuring - length, girth, curvature, head size, the feeling of 'fullness' during PIV, actual satisfaction? Is there a point-scoring system for all of the above? Some dicks felt particularly good, and some looked very pretty (in the context of that person's whole body, not as disembodied appendages to be compared to the next guy's), that's about all I can say on the matter. Men just seem way more attuned to the whole dick-measuring thing :)

162

Margarita @161: "I had a female playpartner who showed intimate pictures of her and I to her male SO because he wanted to see them." Ah, so this is why you think this is commonplace. I don't know whether I would be okay with this. I guess taking naughty photos with someone whom you know to be in a committed relationship with a person in the demographic who would like to see them, you could have more of an expectation that they would be shared. The price of permission for her to play away. That would not have been the situation with the FWB; I don't think he or any straight man could reasonably foresee that any nudes would be shared with a future lover who was judging one's suitability for cucking. I guess knowing someone well, you'd probably have a sense of whether and under what circumstances they'd be OK with photos being shared.

Re your other thought, yes, that makes sense. If she'd told him FWB had a smaller dick, and then later BETTER said "no, he's not suitable because he has a smaller dick," then I agree Ms BETTER would have then had the opportunity to say "actually I lied about that." So his must indeed be smaller. The question is can BETTER suspend his disbelief about this or any future guy. Will he need the proof of penis size or will he agree to let her tell him the bull is hung, whether that is true or not? Presuming BETTER is average, he's ruling out half the contenders if he won't accept a potential white lie about penis size.

I agree dick size seems to matter far more to the person sporting the dick. And that bigger is not necessarily BETTER from her point of view. Perhaps FWB is, as you say, about the same, but that's not good enough for BETTER, he wants an ultra-hung guy. Has he asked Ms BETTER if that's what she wants? I suspect the answer is no.

163

BiDanFan, I respect you very much. Very interesting story. You seem to have the same idea as me, you'd rather try to learn the way respect is shown in the culture you move to, and speak respectfully even if it seems uncomfortable.. It doesn't sound like you stopped calling women "ma'am" because they were uncomfortable with respect, but because they wanted to show special respect for the monarchy. We seem to feel and act the same about Miss, Mrs, and Ms. I wish that more people respected that I like to be called Ms.. but I'm glad I can stop talking to those who insist on addressing me uncomfortably.

I'd have a hard time fitting into a culture where it was considered very respectful to refer to people as "it", or when only women were referred to as girls. I doubt I'd move there. In America, it's not considered a sign of respect to refer to women as "girls".

It's sad that a bunch of guys responded by telling women that we are going to be referred to as girls whether we like it or not, if we get angry about it then we're wrong. That wouldn't fly with another race or sexual minority. Women get the most voice about what women should be called.

I did get the impression that BETTER should be telling his partner how he feels, rather than Dan. When she calls her former FWB "the perfect bull", and he says "not really, I wish we could choose a more - hung guy".. What is her reply?

164

@158. Erica. Completely agree. If she's just being GGG, and isn't into hotwifing on her own account, he should consider the extent of what he can get it and not push it too much--i.e. should think how he can make his requests easier for her, rather than more satisfying for him.

@152. Bi. I agree that 'toxic masculinity' often refers to how men feel they should be behaving as men, not to actual bad behavior. Re @160, I would think I'm the one observing more of a distinction between swinging (just wanting your gf to fuck other guys) and cucking (having a complicated, erotically charged relationship with the humiliation of her fucking someone else). The cuck will have more specific and demanding desiderata re the bull.


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