Savage Love Jan 19, 2021 at 3:47 pm

Case Disclosed




You know how when you're at a friends party you have to go through all their bathroom cabinets and bedside table drawers looking for vitamins? It was just that! Totally normal.


@1: WA-HOOOOOO!!!! Congratulatons, jack chandelier,, on scoring this week's highly coveted FIRDT! honors, found only here in Savage Love Land. Bask in the glory of leading the comment threads. :)


LW1: All partners are positive for everything until proven otherwise. (That’s why you’re on PREP.) The men you’re inviting over in Christchurch are adults and are responsible for their own health. You know you can’t transmit HIV so there’s no ethical reason to disclose unless they ask.

If they do ask and your boyfriend doesn’t want to disclose, find some other reason things aren’t going to work out between the three of you.


I was so disappointed in the last letter. I am 67 years old and since 1973, I have been complaining about women and men infantilizing women by calling them "girl." Pedophilia has nothing to do with this, as Dan so adroitly pointed out. It is about minimizing the power of women. And yes, women do it to women.

(There are times it is okay -- if you change the gender, would you call the person a boy? Fine! Use girl! Girl's Night Out is a perfect example -- Girl away! Want to bring this home even stronger? Imagine the person isn't a woman, but a black man. Would you call him a "boy"?)

Decades of this crap, and it is worse now, it seems.

Stop with the girl!!!!


LW2: I get it. This seems to be a regional and cultural thing. Some straight women refer to their “girlfriends” as opposed to their “friends” or “women friends.” I don’t, I think it’s weird and problematic, but that’s the language used in their social circles and is none of my business.

I wouldn’t accept references to “girls” in a business context. I encourage people to use business english on international online fora to reduce ambiguity. “Girl” is a regionalism and I don’t need to have an opinion on it. “Woman” is appropriate when you don’t know who you’re talking to—say, here.

Funny/annoying/odd story:

I met a friend at a funky shoe store and we had a lovely time lusting. We’re both in our fifties and we’re both dommes. The clerk offered to help us “girls.” My friend bought a pair. The clerk held the door as we left and wished us “girls” a nice day. I stopped and explained that in English (he was francophone) it’s risky to use “girls” to address women he does not know. “Yes, you’re right, I shouldn’t assume gender.”

????? We’re both clearly afab and were both definitely presenting femme, so using feminine language was not a big risk.

I tried again. In french, « les filles » is quite common and he can judge whether it’s appropriate. He may not be aware that “girls” is not an exact equivalent in english and that many grown women object to it. He looked annoyed and bored and repeated dismissively that misgendering was bad.

Is that the culture today? That risking misgendering afab femmes is a genuine faux pas, but infantilizing adult women is so normal that objections to it can’t even be understood?


WEASS, the HIV issue aside, are you comfortable having a boyfriend who wouldn't tell you something like that?

Is WORD someone here? (This has come up here before.)
I think WORD's issue is with the common practice of young adults using 'boy' and 'girl'. I'm so old I'm having a difficult time remembering, but am I right that, say, twentysomethings will refer to themselves as man/woman significantly younger than they'll refer to opposite sex individuals as those. I'm so old I couldn't possibly, but I wonder how wrong it is. Maybe it just feels sexier to refer to the opposite sex with a less technical term. Is WORD's issue that in doing so they're objectifying them? As Dan sometimes points out, when it comes to sex, objectifying can be a good thing.


If LW1 lives in New Zealand, they should be going to the America's Cup races.
LW2's standard of what makes one person "better" than another is LMB.
If I had a euro for every time I heard (and corrected) "men" and "girls" in consecutive sentences during college basketball season (although, weirdly, almost as many women as men used the M/G words), I'd be able to afford PReP and a villa in the north of France.


@6 curious - one is never too old to call oneself a boy/girl. i am forever a go go boi and i punctuate like one 2 even though aarp has sent been trying to get me to join for years


To WORD and Bareboard: Amen!


To WORD, I think part of the issue is that when it comes to men, we have a decent in-between word: “guy.” As a 30-something I will say “I’m seeing/talking to this guy.” I probably wouldn’t use “boy” or “man” in that particular context. But the equivalent of “guy” for women is “gal,” which I think most people tend to avoid. I hear it a lot among my parents’ generation of more rural folk: “This gal such-and-such...” But I tend to find it overly folksy and it can strike me as a bit pejorative, even if that’s not the intention. I digress a bit, but my point being, I think many default to “girl,” because “woman” can seem overly formal but there’s not really a happy medium the same way there is when you refer to a “guy.” And @7, it seems you likely were also facing the fact that age is a delicate issue for many woman (as a result of society valuing women for their youth/beauty vs intellect and capabilities for sure). I would guess in the salesperson’s mind referring to women of a certain age as “girls” was intended to be charming and flattering. Think of how many women take umbrage at being referred to as “ma’am.” I don’t disagree with your point; I’m just thinking the salesperson was making a linguistic choice based on broader social norms, which skew toward not only infantilizing women but valuing their youth above all. I would suggest that in the instance @7 describes “ladies” might be a preferable replacement. Though to WORD’s frustration, I don’t see a guy saying “I’m talking to this lady,” unless he’s an older gentleman; that demographic tends to use “lady,” Gen X and under, not as much. Just my .02 on the prevalence of “girl” in our vernacular.


SassyShortz @10,

Yes, presumably that’s what the salesclerk was going for. It doesn’t work consistently well in english. The reason this story is interesting to me is not that he tried something that didn’t work. It’s that when I tried to explain the issue — kindly, informatively, to help him provide better service and make more sales — when I tried to explain it twice — he couldn’t hear me.

The idea that misgendering was the most likely reason that two women old enough to be his mother didn’t want him to call them “girls”; that infantilization being a bad thing was not one of the ideas his brain had available to work with; that was the issue for me.

It’s like I’m explaining to a child that before petting unfamiliar dogs they should always ask their person first, and the kid says “you’re right, the dog might have rabies.” While it’s theoretically possible that someone is knowingly walking their rabid poodle through a public park, it’s far more likely that the dog will simply object to the sudden approach by the strange child, and bite. (In my city, if the dog’s teeth break skin the dog must be put down no matter the circumstances or the size of the dog, so this is not just about harm to the child but life and death for the dog.) And so I attempt twice to explain to the child that my dog does not know they are nice or have good intentions and not all dogs like strangers. That they must ask first to find out if it’s okay to pet a dog. And the child keeps repeating, “yes, it might have rabies.”

Also: this is Quebec. “Ma’am” is not really a thing. « Madame » is perfectly fine. It’s ordinary courteous language between strangers. I’ve never heard anyone object to being called « Madame ».


I’ve had this problem with my daughters, both in their early twenties when I call them “my girls”, as in my girls are coming over for dinner (I’ve asked, they don’t have a problem with it, but their aunt does). My mom, in her eighties, still refers to my brOther and me as “the boys” which bothers me not a bit. I know I’ll ALWAYS be her boy, even though I’m in my sixties now. And my SO still says, “going out with the girls”... it’s a colloquialism, not a put down. THAT SAID, those are all examples of people familiar with each other. It’s usually demeaning to refer to grown women you don’t know or casual acquaintances as girls, so stick with “ladies” and avoid the controversy. It’s the English language, so of course there are complicated expressions, like “You go, girl!” Let’s all try and not get our undies in a bundle over the occasional misuse of a WORD when it is clearly NOT being used in a deliberately derogatory sense, and especially when it’s used by someone who has English as a second language. If it’s someone you see constantly, a simple, “Please don’t refer to me as a girl, I gave up dolls and hopscotch years ago” should get the message across without sounding too snotty.


I'm an afab nb in my 30s. The word 'woman' gives me the heebie jeebies; I really hate it. 'Girl' is slightly more bearable, but before I came out as non-binary I strongly preferred 'lady'. I felt like it referred to social role rather than anything innate or biological and so described me best. I've also met plenty of women who hate 'lady' for the same reason, that it suggests some restrictive standards of behaviour and place in the world.

(For another data point, I also refer to my desexed adult male cats as boys.)


@12 DonnyKlicious, Dan, and others, re WORD: As an asexual cis-female over 50, I still go by 'girls' night out'.


Just saying: WEASS could have a third over if that person lives alone and is able to self isolate for 10 days first. Ideally he would not have to take public transport. (Or, indeed, he may have been vaccinated. I'll be so glad when these letters no longer need "but don't do it because Covid" disclaimers.)

WEASS definitely needs to leave his partner's disclosure decisions up to his partner. And if they use condoms with their thirds, which they will, right? - then Mr WEASS has done his duty to keep them safe from whatever he (or they) may or may not have. Mr WEASS should have told WEASS before they got serious, sure -- don't gay men have HIV conversations the way DS couples have pregnancy discussions? Or is that only if they want to stop using condoms? They (for all combinations of "they") should, because, as Dan says, condoms aren't 100% effective against pregnancy or any other sexually transmitted disease.

If WORD has ever said she has a boyfriend, not a manfriend, she needs to get over herself. "Girl" is acceptable in colloquial speech. One should never use it in professional settings, but in dating contexts, girl/boy/gal/guy are fine. If a legal-age woman has consented to being called a "girl" in dating contexts by not objecting to it, should that not be fine by your standards? Tell your own partners if you insist on the term woman, but otherwise, maybe save your energy to fight actual paedophilia. Or go to bat for another subset of women who are fighting to be called women -- that's right, trans ones. I'm sure they need your advocacy far more than the grown cis women whose boyfriends (see what I did there) offhandedly, and in commonly accepted contexts, call them girls.


If BETTER is asking whether he has the power to veto his gf's choice of bull, of course he has..... Unless she wants to go ahead and fuck this guy independent of the cucking scenario, in which case it's another discussion....

'This is the wrong guy', he says ... well--he doesn't seem to have many other short-to-medium term options if he wants to get cucked; and what Dan says about his partner's feeling comfortable and in the right headspace to do this is of course correct. But his insecurities--awful but delicious and manageable--seem to turn on the bull's being more attractive and sexually potent than him, but having no emotional connection to his gf, while this guy is less typically sexually potent and, it would seem, does have the emotional connection. This might make the guy 'better' in some way, but it could be the wrong way for the fantasy and kink to be arousing. Here I thought Dan maybe mistaken. A genuine threat, in BETTER's mind, as against a hot fuck his hotwife gf's indulged herself with, could be unpleasantly anxiogenic, even relationship-ending. BETTER is new to getting cucked; and I thought the call was probably to try to offer hope that he and his gf could find the right guy.

Down the line it's possible that his gf might want to negotiate a poly or open relationship, and this is something that BETTER might think about or feel his way towards understanding whether he could accept--but (not least because of the pandemic) it's not for now.


WORD's letter to me is a yawn. It smacks of the sort of identarian politics that says, at once, 'please respect me' and 'I'm identifying as a member of a group in such a way as means I grant respect differentially'. She's right that the term 'girl' is often diminishing in effect.

With WEASS, I felt the 'bad old days' when you had to insist on condom use for the sake of self-preservation were ironically a lot easier when it came to matters of etiquette. Probably all he needs to clear with the third is 'you're on PReP, right?', leaving open which of the three of them, if any, might have AIDS. A culture where disclosure of positive status is the norm, and no biggie, is evidently better than one in which people surreptitiously manage their own and their lovers' health. But I can't see it will be easy to get there.


Jack @1, you know how the person you're sharing your life and bodily fluids with and who's asked you to stay at their house while they're away is exactly the same as someone who might invite you to a party? Totally normal!

Alison @5, if this man was young, he has probably heard "you shouldn't assume gender" a lot more often than "you shouldn't refer to grown women as girls." And indeed, he may have been using a word that he understood to be the English equivalent of the French word for "young women" with an intention to compliment you. I do think women contribute to this problem by fetishising our own youth; here in the UK, "Ms" gets a lot of pushback in part because grown women say they prefer to be called Miss because it makes them feel young. Also, I don't know what your dominance would either have to do with it or how he would know?? I do agree customers is not an acceptable context in which to call grown women girls.

Sassy @10, I agree that girl is the feminine of both boy, which people would rarely use to refer to grown men, and of guy, which they often would. I've been trying to use gal but so far it's slow to catch on, as you say.
And yes, in a retail context "ladies" would have been a far better choice.


Harriet @16, of course you're right that BETTER gets a veto here. And if he's not turned on by the idea of this guy fucking his partner, he isn't. Would he be turned on if she bigged this guy up, as Dan says? Given that there are few other alternatives, it's worth a try. We've heard here from women who are put off cucking because it's the guy who wants to call the shots, who wants to push her to have sex she doesn't want to have with men she doesn't fancy. It might be this guy or no guy, at least for the foreseeable future, so he may want to adjust his standards accordingly.
And this guy has almost definitely got a better personality, so there's that. ;)


Perhaps WORD should just call men boys in any context she hears women referred to as girls; perhaps that might restore her sense of equality. I'm dating this boy I met at work. There were some good-looking boys at that party last night. Sounds like a much more fun way to take back power, and more effective as well.


@19. Bi. We are completely in agreement over both the ethics (which is really the bottom line)--that BETTER gets a veto--and the pragmatics, that 'it might be this guy or no guy, at least for the foreseeable future'.

My experience having sex with thirds laid on by my partner--certainly with him present, which is nigh-on 100% of the cases--is that I'm predominantly (in my head) having sex with my partner; there is a variation, which is that he's set me up with something 'nice'. It can be thrilling, of course--more than 'nice'; but I said 'nice' to underscore how the 'meat' of the relationship to me is somewhere other than in this kind of sex--in my talking about his work or family with him; in our shared activities, our holidays, our trips to the opera. I think that this (the sex being 'with' the main partner) is true for many people in the position of the 'hotwife'. I'm not sure there's anything in the letter about the mechanics of how BETTER would like to be cucked: does he want to be absent? To e.g. 'cook supper' or symbolically abase himself in some way before the bull beforehand? To be in the room but in a passive or subordinate position? Possibly a bit more detail would allow us to be more specific in our advice--although the bottom line for me is that he does has a veto.

Was I the first at @16 to comment on this letter? 'Girl'--'you go, girls'--was the more pressing issue?


Related to boy/girl - what you're called can also show how old the person thinks you are. In many countries there are gendered-and-age designations (verb form and/or title) for Mr / Ms / lady / sir, child - young adult - middle aged - old.

Maybe we should all tattoo on our forehead what we want to be called and identified as. Kinda tough on the fluid folks.


Harriet @21, yes, looks like you were the first to address BETTER's letter. No surprise, everyone has an opinion on what they want to be called, and few have experience of cucking as a kink, therefore fewer people have an opinion. Or Dan just gave an answer few could improve upon. BETTER seems to have forgotten that the kind of man his girlfriend wants to fuck is more important here than the kind of man he wants her to fuck, or perhaps equally important, if she is not interested in a open relationship for her own sake. Perhaps Ms BETTER isn't interested in super masculine "bulls." This could be worked round by her going out and banging Clark Kents but coming home and telling him she's banged Supermen.


When people use girl when they mean grown woman it bothers me too, but I have to agree with Dan that it's best just to get over it. You know what the speaker meant so let the tiny insult pass. BiDan's idea of substituting boy for man helped me. When I realized that during WWII American newspapers often referred to our brave boys fighting overseas (certainly with no insult implied), it made me feel better when people talked about the new girl in the office. It might also help to consider the vast number of ambiguities all over the place in language. When someone refers to a man's cock, I don't ask if he's talking about a rooster. When a recipe calls for chicken breasts, I don't think of human erect nipples. I don't run into much conversation about donkeys in my day to day life, but if I did, I wouldn't object to their being called asses. And people have been calling their sexual partners "baby" for ages. They also call their babies "mamacita."


Delta @22, perhaps it's telling that there is no baggage-free term for an adult female human. Woman can feel awkward for anyone on the non-binary scale. Girl is infantilising. Gal too folksy. Female brings to mind incels or Ferenghi. Lady sounds dated and too formal. Don't get me started on chick, babe, doll. I guess that's one reason I prefer to be called a person whenever possible. Degendering language, it's not just for trans people and enbies anymore.


@23. Bi. Well, I thought Dan's response to WORD pretty good, too: 'come on'. Other than, in all likelihood, he managed to misplace the apostrophe in 'girls' night out'. Couldn't he hire an apostrophe guy to do this for him? I will not say 'apostrophe girl'. If this person were Scottish, I could, in a gender-neutral way, but with light and no doubt immediately resented superciliousness, say 'McApostrophe'. I think 'woman' the natural boilerplate e.g. 'I've met a woman I'm interested in over the Internet'. I'm not sure the lw right in suggesting that the 'course of popularity' in usage is for 'girl' to be gaining ground. I know no one who routinely uses 'girl' for 'adult woman', or who has swung towards it away from a term designating a grown-up. Maybe she should hang with some classier people? Like, Harvard grads? From the cultural commentary I read on here, and the diagnoses of America's ills and divisions typically put up by SL commentators, I get the sense that people would be less agitated if they surrounded themselves uniformly, only allowed themselves to be impinged on, by Harvard grads.

To get to delta @22 and your @25 point, if I have to include a handle for myself for formal or work gatherings, I put 'M.': French is an organisational lingua franca where I work, and the designator could be taken as an Anglo-Saxon gender-neutral pronoun. I'm always pleased to be taken as a woman, and ambivalent but not displeased (outwith special circumstances) to be taken as a man. To generalise a bit, I don't think some non-binarians' discomfort with 'woman' should restrict the term's currency as a neutrally respectful term for ciswomen (the overwhelming majority of women). Your point, though, about the entitlement of transwomen to female terms (e.g. pronouns) being a worthier cause to pipe up for than some slack-jawed, non-U guy talking about a 'girl' ('gal', 'chick') to me was well-observed.

Why didn't people imagine what they would like were they cucking?


Honest question for those who don't like the phrase girl - is girlfriend all right? I see that term used consistently by men and women of all ages. Womanfriend sounds weird and while I personally use ladyfriend, it isn't super popular and definitely has an old retired couple vibe.

I've thought about this a lot the last 24 hours. It's hard to know how you talk (I'm a married straight cis white dude BTW) but I'm pretty sure the only time I consistently use girl is when I talk about people I used to date - e.g. "This girl I used to date . . ." I think that's not really about them but more about me placing my dating life in the far past. I mostly dated when pretty young in my teens and early 20s so I think I'm just placing it there. Not sure that adds to the conversation but I think maybe it speaks to motive?

Overally, I think context matters considerably. It has no place in the workplace, it may have its place in casual society. I think you may come across as a language Nazi if you're pissed at everyone who uses the phrase girl innocuously in conversation. I also think that if you see even a hint of it being a way of minimizing female power (the salesperson example above leaps to mind or anything in the workplace) you're absolutely justified in saying something.


@24 I find people calling their partners "baby" way more disturbing than any use of girl. Super weird. I know it's common and I'd never say anything but it's still . . . super weird.

But I also have a new daughter and am trying to avoid being called daddy because that seems weird to me too. Maybe I'm thinking too hard.


I just don't think the title "The Golden Women" would work out...


I think it was one of these SL letters that started, "I'm dating a 30-year-old girl..." Now that looked stupid.


"girl" can be used pejoratively, but just as often it is not. I think the LW underestimates the number of adult women who refer to themselves as "girls." A girlfriend told me once she prefers the term "because that's what I am, that's what I feel like, I'm a girl." I don't think that would apply in the workplace, but it's common and comfortable and ridiculous to poo-poo. Hell, my mom used to say to me (a boy, or a man) "I understand these things because I'm a girl." No one misinterprets her meaning. In fact, I would argue her meaning is clearer this way.
This reminds me of folks who think their regionalism/subculturism is the way everyone ought to do it (see "soda"/"pop", "partner"/"boyfriend" etc) sometimes they don't even realize that most of the english speaking world isn't using what they think is a standard!
A final note--hearing a man use "girl" to put someone in their place is sickening and gross. I know that happens. What I see more frequently is "women" of 29 putting down "girls" of 24. If you want to denigrate someone, you'll use whatever word or tactic you have at hand, feminist or not.


"I don't want to sound conceited, but ..."

The rest of the sentence seldom fares well.


BiDanFan @18,

He was in his thirties. I am old enough to be his mother. He was both young enough and old enough to know better.

“Ladies” is another one where you need to know your audience. I dislike it. I use it in only one context, when I call myself “a nice white middle-aged lady” to situate my privilege.

If you happen to be working in a business with a very defined clientele that you know happen to enjoy being called “lady” by strangers, by all means go for it. This was not that business. My point was not that “girl” (or “lady”) should never be used, but that it’s risky in english when you don’t know who you’re talking to. Why sidetrack yourself into a language or etiquette discussion when you’re trying to communicate something on a completely different topic?

RE what does being a domme have to do with it: I dunno. When having dinner at an expensive restaurant with Elizabeth Warren and Elizabeth II would you really expect the waiter to come up to you and say, “So what are you girls drinking tonight?” When evaluating your audience you might expect this to go over better with women who present more... cute?

(Obviously just being a domme isn’t an accomplishment like being Elizabeth Warren is. The point is that not all women present girlishly.)

There’s no reason to use “girls” or “ladies” at all. “Thank you and have a lovely afternoon” is just fine. “Enjoy your day, girls” introduces fuss and is not required. Note that a woman alone is unlikely to be approached by a clerk with “May I help you girl/lady?” If it’s not necessary for a woman alone it’s not necessary for two women.


A New Day! Feels lighter already. Lady Gaga, beautiful.


Oh please, BETTER. jesus fuck, you’ve got these kinks, finally found your perfect gal, there’s a deadly Pandemic going on, a suitable person is there to fulfil one of your kinks, and you complain? Man, talk about entitled.


RE cuckolding.

Inspired by this week’s Lovecast I started listening to the “Keys and Anklets” podcast about hotwifing and cuckolding. Michael Cee puts a great deal of emphasis on understanding the role of the bull. His relationship is with the couple, not primarily with the woman. He offers an analogy: this is a romance between Princess Leia and Han Solo. The bull is someone significant but with very little screen time: he’s Darth Vader. This is not a love triangle.

I’d suggest that both BETTER and Mrs. BETTER join FetLife to learn more about cuckolding; learn more about how to enjoy being someone’s domme and not end up resentfully servicing a whiny sub; and meet local people into being a bull for a cuckold couple.


Anyway BETTER, you’ll do what you’re told.
Thing is, she enjoys this man or did in the past. Bit of jealousy creeping in? I mean he ain’t as good looking, as you, or has a whopping dick, as you have, still she got off on him. Mmmm. What could this be about?


Oh, RE “girlfriend” for a romantic/ sexual partner: sure, why not? If that’s what you agree on.

Before covid I had a husband and two boyfriends—all my age or a little older. In my lifetime I have also had lovers, a fancy-man, girlfriends, blondes, tchums/tchummes, partners, sexual partners, conjoints/conjointes and spouses. Possibly others.

I used to know someone who referred to the man she lived with, the father of her child, as “my friend.” Accurate perhaps but confusing as hell.


Granted, I’m an outsider, I don’t get why submissive men appear to run the show, and Dom men also run the show. Something fishy going on here. Adjust his attitude is my advice.


Alison @34, unless this was a shoe store that caters for kinky clients only, I think you can hardly expect the sales boy to have picked up on "dominant" cues in the way you and your friend present yourselves. It would have been equally inappropriate to address a submissive 50-year-old woman as a girl, would it not? Perhaps multiple female customers at Chippendale's would be happy to be addressed as girls, but not Elizabeth Warren or Elizabeth II at an expensive restaurant or Elizabeth Nobody at a Red Lobster. Using belittling language is bad customer service. I agree he needn't have said anything more than "you two have a nice day." Cuts out gender-assuming, misogyny AND ageism.


@Dan the Man and all commenters: Happy New Year!!!!

@35 LavaGirl: It has been a long, long, long, long four years of Trumpian Dark Ages before finally coming to an end today. Although there is a lot of work to do to undo the dreadful damage done by the last administration, we finally have a real President and Vice President of the United States again. The adults are back in the room. A blessed relief that the parting Trumpty Dumpty's QAnon goon squad's planned D.C. attack on Inauguration Day was a bust. How pitiful that the RWNJ insurgents are now trying to pass it off via Twitter as a "satire".

@36 & @38 LavaGirl: BETTER almost makes me laugh with his childish level of insecurity. What IS it about the fixation on penis size? A contest to see who is the bigger dick?


Harriet @26, of course most people are far likelier to have opinions on what they would like to be called or, if male, on what women they're close to would like to be called than to have opinions on a kink they have no interest in and no connection with. YOU may read such content and immediately go on a flight of fancy, but that's not how most people roll.

Lava @40, yup, male entitlement no matter which end of the whip one is on. This guy should accept the reality that he's lucky to get cucked at all, and imagine all sorts of ways in which the work FWB is better than he is, or accept the alternate reality that his ego is going to get in the way of his seeing other men as superior. Or prepare to hire a special guest star that you both find hot. Once Covid is over, yadda yadda.


27- Larry-- I don't like the term girl for grown women out of their teens.

I find the following acceptable:
Girls basketball on the high school and college level. (The players are in their teens and twenties.)
Girlfriend/boyfriend (The partnered people have a romantic/sexual relationship. They can be any age.)
Girlfriend (Two women who are friends.)
Ladies' room/Men's room (Toilets in a store, restaurant, office. Bathroom for a private home.)
Night out with the girls. (As long as they refer to themselves this way)
Boy dog/girl dog. (Woman dog gets points for creativity and absurdity.)

The new girl at the office. (If she's a defense attorney, she's your boss. Call her by name or title. If you don't know either, she's the woman who's just been hired.)
Pregnant girl. (I don't care if she's 14. If she's pregnant or a mother, she's a woman.)
Girls in the armed services. (I know I just said that newspapers referred to our brave boys fighting overseas, but it's 60 years later, and men and women fighting for the country are men and women, not boys and girls.)
Girl for anyone over 50 even if she doesn't mind. (At some point it just gets stupid or confusing. If you're in menopause; you're a woman, not a girl.)

This is a highly personal list! I acknowledge that this is insistent, but this is what sounds right to my ears. I understand if others have a different take on every opinion above. I get that there will be differences based on age, location, and probably other factors. (I'm almost 60 and American.) But Larry, you asked an honest question so I answered.


I saw the headline for the new Lovecast "On Asking Your Friend for Sperm" and thought we might get an ode. Maybe W.H. Auden?


Somebody better tell Randy Rainbow about the word girl/ gurl, because he’s constantly called adults, girl. Wonder what he’ll sing about now? Trumps were such good fodder.
Grown adults call each other ‘babe’, so all this preciousness about girl/ boy is just that. Of course I would say that as girl is in my name here. And not once have I regretted it. So all you purists , Sorry.


In a way, a post The Change woman is back at experiences like she had in her girlhood. Climbing trees etc. No blood. Maybe not the tree climbing; the freedom is the same. Not overwhelmed by the need for a mate.
No working baby making machinery, just like when we were girls. For me, it’s aesthetics. Boy/ Girl are great words, and with words, context is all.


Fichu @45, children don't have jobs so even if the "new girl at the office" is the receptionist she is a woman. Professional contexts are where I personally draw a hard line. I remember once being copied into an e-mail where a client referred to me as "the accounts girl." I quickly told that boy that he would be looking for a new accountANT if he referred to me that way again. If you wouldn't say boy in a certain context, you shouldn't say girl. Refer to that person by their job title -- attorney, receptionist, "the new member of staff" if you don't know their job.

While I agree with WORD in the main, I also think she is tilting at windmills if she thinks she can get people to stop using "girl" in every context. And her point that "if you call your partner a girl, that means you must be dating a child and are therefore a paedophile" is ridiculous. If she's going to pursue this she needs a better angle. The dreaded "flip the genders" could work here. "Would you want your partner to call you a boy?" She'd have to be prepared for some to say they wouldn't mind, but I do think a lot of men would feel odd about being called boys, even in a dating context, so she may make some folks think.


... Except that then the partners in question would say they're OK with being called girls in the context of that relationship, so she'd be back to square one. I think all she can hope for is to get people to stop calling HER a girl, which, as trans people have found, can be an uphill battle.


45-- Oh shit. Major typo. I realize this is INCONSISTENT, not insistent. (I'd love to blame autocorrect, but that's entirely my mistake.) I never meant to insist that anyone else agree with my rulings. I was just talking about what bugs me personally, not demanding that others use words the way I do. (I may misunderstand or get the wrong idea, but that's different from telling you how to talk.) (There's also the possibility/likelihood that I understand perfectly. The guy who calls his colleague a girl means to belittle her.)


"The guy who calls his colleague a girl means to belittle her." 100%. The context you hear it in is, as you say, "the new girl." She's new, she doesn't need to be taken seriously.


@43. Bi. I'm not talking about 'flight of fancies', but about the capacity imaginatively to enter into someone else's experience and values. Isn't that what's fundamentally at play in a gay advice columnist advising straights?

I'm shocked at people thinking BETTER (who's a little nebbishy, unsure of himself; a cucking greenhorn) a person resting on male entitlement. The relationship the bull will have will be with the couple. Yes, superficially and practically, the bull will be fucking (having sex whatever way with...) his hotwife gf; but in spirit or fact the cuck will be there. He has equal rights to say yea or nay to the hotwife's sex partners (in cucking) as she does. Lava @40, read Alison Cummins's post @37 for a sense of what's involved in cucking. The cuck intensifies, or changes the nature of, his relationship with his hotwife partner by introducing elements of fantasy and taboo-violation. In some cases, the kink involves the cuck entertaining pleasurable or painful-pleasurable anxieties about the hotwife's having sex with other guys (which may or may not happen). But this isn't about the cuck's (in fact) relinquishing over one aspect of their lives.


Sporklandia? Mmm. Weird you should turn up now, I was writing something S before and your name sake came up on my phone. That felt weird enough, now you.. whoever you are.. are here.
/ Woman, the word, contains the word, Man. Can’t see why the big deal about defining ourselves only as womb of man. Bit restrictive.
Girls’ night out. We all know what that means.
Women’s night out. Gawd. Sounds constipated. Might miss that one.


Harriet @53, I'm not arguing that most people don't have the -capacity- to project themselves into a situation involving cucking, but that they don't have the -interest- in doing so. This column is fundamentally about -DAN- applying his gay experience to advising, initially, straight people, and currently any people. It is not about -commenters- doing so. Commenters have the ability to add their two cents about anything that interests them. Clearly from the lack of comments, cucking does not interest many -- nor should this be surprising.

As for why BETTER is being read as entitled, it's his attitude of non-gratitude. It's his unrealistic expectation and the fact he felt the need to write to Dan about it. Re-read his letter: he doesn't ask a question. He simply tells Dan, and us, that he feels superior to this former FWB of his girlfriend's. He knows how rare it is to find a woman willing to cuck him, and he should know how hard it will be -- particularly in a pandemic! -- for said woman to find a guy she wants to fuck and who would in turn be up for being "used" in this way, for said woman's partner's benefit, rather than his own, and he has been offered all these things and said, "meh." If this is one's ultimate fantasy, one should be a bit less demanding, should one not?

Indeed, in any group situation it's important that everyone involved is happy with the choice of partner. And should be understood that if the choice of partner is not acceptable to everyone involved, you keep looking. He should know this, so why write to Dan? Other than to brag about how much BETTER he is and therefore how difficult it will be to find someone his non-conceited (ahem) self finds threatening enough to make this fantasy perfect for him. (No thought as to the fact that the FWB is, in her own words, perfect for -her-, and she's the Domme, the one in charge -- right?) This is why he's not getting a lot of sympathy here.


M?? Harriet - I disliked the cuckold's entire system of evaluating people enough not to want to say more.


General Question: Something that I really had almost never heard until the last year or two was the pronunciation of "laissez" to rhyme with "blase". This morning, somebody posted a comment that he'd heard it so pronounced frequently, often by educated people, and I've been wondering why. I've come up with a few possibilities. One is just anti-French prejudice, but that seems much more likely to account for things such as the pronunciation of "bourgeois" without even the tiniest hint of an R. Another idea, a steady decline in general understanding of French pronunciation, would seem more likely to produce a rhyme with "essay". It seems much more remote that it would be done in an attempt to avoid sounding anti-Sapphist. Then it occurred to me that perhaps people only pronounced laissez to rhyme with blase when speaking of laissez-faire economics, but not many native English speakers use the word in other contexts, which would make that pudding difficult to prove.

Any ideas? Somebody should summon Ms Muse back; I'm sure she'd have some comment to make, especially if she's finished her stockpile of sherbet.


I agree with Dan that the most important way of showing respect to women is by showing value for our feelings, dreams, and desires, as he did for Ms Cuck. But he seems to have missed the point that refraining from calling adult human females "girls" is a valid way to show respect for women also. Yes, some women insist on calling other women "girls" or rebuking respectful feminine labels like "ma'am" or "lady", and some women believe that women are badly suited to leadership positions, or that women should be banned from control of our reproductive choices.. This isn't an argument that these behaviors are socially adaptive or innocent, just because women are choosing to show disrespect for other women. Women can be misogynist, it's more pitiful than male misogyny but far from harmless. I think it's better to try to treat everyone with respect. So I try not to call women "girls", outside of romantic gf/bf usage.

I was raised in a part of the country where I never heard "ma'am" or "sir" outside of very formal context. At 22 I moved to a region where I was called ma'am in work context, I noticed all my coworkers recieved the same treatment (ma'am or sir). It felt very awkward the first time it happened. It was uncomfortable for a month or two. I did not protest or rebuke! the usage even though I was uncomfortable, because I understood the meaning to be respectful. So I understand that some people don't feel very comfortable being respectful, but also that it's disrespectful to refuse to tolerate attempts to show respect. I'm not going to stop addressing people by honorary titles, sir, ma'am, ladies, gentlemen, etc, because some people are uncomfortable with respectful forms of address.. That would be catering to the lowest denominator rather than trying to raise cultural respect. I'm not great with honorary addresses, but I try.

It seems to me that ladies who are insistent about calling themselves and other women "girls", who are intolerant about labeling women respectfully as "ma'am" or "ladies", suffer from a feminine Peter Pan syndrome. OK, adults can be bratty and/or immature, I just don't think I should encourage it.

There's a big difference between self deprecation and refusing to treat others respectfully. I try to respect what people want to be called, or find a variant that doesn't seem too disrespectful to me; I would not refer to a human as "it", I would try to find a respectful term they could accept, and I would argue when others insist on calling a person "it". At least this is a more interesting facet of language than "cum".

WEASS- "Is it unreasonable for me to expect him to disclose his status to guys who join us in bed? What about asking him to share with a therapist or "come out" as poz to his mother?"
It is more realistic to ask for what you want than to expect it. If you want your partner to see a therapist, you should book a therapist for yourself first, and express that you'd like them to have the same benefit, so you don't look like you're just rudely calling them crazy. I think it's fine to ask someone to "come out", to disclose secrets or embarrassing stories to a person or people, but not to force or even pressure them. You might work on explaining yourself better, and exactly why you are unhappy with and want to change your partner.. He didn't feel comfortable enough to tell you about his disease, but that could be because you don't seem to be able to discuss your feelings about it very calmly and non judge mentally. I'd be concerned about why he left his meds at home, if he's following medical advice well, etc, but I doubt I'd get any answers by getting mad about it.

BETTER- If you are not really able to get into cucking with her choice of partner, she will have no motivation to try to get into it with your choice of partner. Maybe cucking is better for you as just a fantasy, or as dirty talk. The worst choice would be to veto her choice of bull and act insistent about your choice of bull, better to accept that you're not compatible about cucking.


Reposting Fubar's Slogblocker link:


Phi @60, "Some people are uncomfortable with respectful forms of address." One issue here, as you alluded, is that what is seen as respectful can vary regionally or culturally. When I moved to the UK I was working in an office and dealing occasionally with customers on the phone. I was on a call with someone who had a complaint. Being keen to show her as much respect as possible, throughout the call I addressed her as "ma'am." Once the call finished my boss, livid, told me that this is seen as DISrespectful in the UK; that people address the Queen as "ma'am" and that the customer would have seen my addressing her thus as sarcastic and insulting. I was, as the Brits say, gobsmacked. The sales boy in Alison's story may have felt the same way when Alison rebuked him; in France, addressing older women as "girls" may be considered a high compliment that he would not understand would be unwelcome unless the person in question were not female.

Similarly, I chafe mightily at women calling themselves Miss or Mrs, for feminist reasons. But these are inexplicably still popular here in the UK, and while I still default to Ms if a woman's title is unknown to me, I grate my teeth and use Miss or Mrs if the woman in question indicates that's her preference.

We forgot about WEASS, didn't we? I would ask him what he hoped to achieve by pressuring his partner to come out to his mother about being HIV-positive. Surely it's none of his mother's business, unless he takes a turn for the (far) worse. And why seek therapy if this isn't something that's plaguing him? It's definitely worth asking him why he didn't tell WEASS, this could reveal a lot about his character or WEASS's or both.

Re BETTER, perhaps he could try to get turned on by the humiliation that -she- finds plain-looking guys with medium penises more fuckable than what he would consider the ideal man to be? Could rejecting his idea of "alpha" be the slap in the face he seeks? I sympathise to an extent -- my straight male partner and I have completely different taste in women, but we've accepted that means we'll probably never have a threesome instead of each of us trying to impose women we like on each other. This indeed may keep the cucking in fantasy-only territory. Or perhaps he could relinquish his veto. "I'm going to fuck whoever I please, you have no choice but to accept it" might make him feel sufficiently threatened? Seems there's some negotiation room here, if he sets his ego aside.


Dan, did you ask the girls in the office to make some more coffee and to call the photocopy repairman?

The use of “girls”isn’t negative? Derogatory? An embedded/coded use of power, displayed through choice of words? A way of addressing your female subordinates that shows that you are the man and therefore have more power, make more money and are most likely physically stronger?

Come on Dan! Be a good boy and rethink your position!


Designer @63, what Dan said was: "There's a huge difference between someone affectionately referring to a new partner as a girl/girlfriend—or a boy/boyfriend—and someone, say, dismissively and intentionally infantilizing adult female coworkers or political leaders." The example you gave was of dismissively and intentionally infantilizing adult female coworkers. In what way should he rethink his position on that?

Cocky @64, as a boy I don't think you should get to say whether women should or should not find the term girl offensive, and under what circumstances. Leave this to us gals to debate, and when in doubt err on the side of respectful language where others are concerned.


Back to cuckolding;

As a kink it goes beyond a married woman taking a paramour. A bull who is invested in the couple’s particular dynamic is a better choice for BETTER.

It’s not about being entitled. It’s about fun vs disaster.

It sounds like the couple haven’t figured out their dynamic yet. They’re arguing about it in terms of “kink” vs “sub” vs “topping from the bottom” and are getting stuck. There are ways to make it enjoyable for both of them, which is why it’s important for Mrs BETTER to learn more about how to be a happy domme in a world of whiny, whiny subs.


BiDanFan @62,

“The sales boy in Alison's story may have felt the same way when Alison rebuked him; in France, addressing older women as "girls" may be considered a high compliment that he would not understand would be unwelcome unless the person in question were not female.”

I didn’t rebuke the clerk. I kindly and smilingly educated him about a linguistic and cultural misunderstanding.
I’m in Quebec, not France.
Addressing older women as girls is not a high compliment in Quebec; it just passes as normal informal talk among women more generally than it does as in english. In english, sometimes it passes and sometimes it doesn’t so it’s best not to assume.
The clerk presented as gay, so he was possibly projecting his own enjoyment of being called “girl.”


"The clerk presented as gay,"
This is a key missing ingredient. Gay men call each other "girl" all the time. For me this would completely change the tone and dynamic. And I can now see why he was puzzled at being corrected. This may well have been the first among hundreds of interactions he had with cis women who objected to being called "girl" by a gay man. And indeed, someone like that may well have been in the habit of calling individual women "girl." "Girl, those shoes look FABULOUS on you!" Nearly 50-year-old me would not object to that in the slightest.


First post trump @69 Fan, and you scored it! Got to be worth mammoth amounts of good luck. Congratulations.


Did you turn 50 already, Fan? And not tell us.


Lava @71, nearly 50! The number of your post is the year of my birth. Can't believe I've spent this many years on this planet of ours.


BiDanFan @69,

There’s a difference between “Girl, those shoes look FABULOUS on you!” and “Have a nice day, girls.” I am well aware of the difference.

He wasn’t gushing. He looked bored and like he wanted us out of his store. Which was rude, as my friend had just dropped hundreds of dollars. He could at least have pretended to care about what makes his customers happy.


Also: my friend and I met at a kink party. She is a big fan of RuPaul’s Drag Race and its various spin-offs.

She was irritated too.


My advice to BETTER is that a bird in the hand is worth two in the bush.

I think someone with an unpopular kink is better off settling for a close approximation (and being generous towards their GGG partner in return) -- rather than holding out for their ideal.

As an analogy, a man with a diaper fetish should consider settling for a partner GGG enough to change his wet diapers and not expect to find someone willing to handle dirty diapers.

I disagree with those saying a cuck gets equal say -- the cucks I know trust their wives to pick men who will satisfy them. So I recommend BETTER encourage his partner to have fun with her FWB rather than shutting down her fun because it's not all about his precise fetish. GGG should go both ways.


I understand BETTER’s embarrassment over in spite of being so lucky in getting so many rare to find things and still being unhappy with his partner’s choice of a bull. The problem is that the need to be cuckolded with someone “hotter” and “better hung” is apparently absolutely essential for the experience to work for him.I found Dan’s advice here generally good. There’s too much right here not to at least try to find some sort of accommodation, but it may not work for BETTER. I agree with Bi@19 and Harriet@21 that BETTER, even though he is the submissive here, gets a veto, because if it’s a bad experience for him, what’s the point? As Allison@67 said, “It’s not about being entitled. It’s about fun vs disaster.” All this has to do with understanding the dance between the dominant and the submissive. Let me explain:

It’s been quite a while, but Dan used to have a professional dominatrix, Mistress Matisse, as a guest on Savage Love. I remember her saying that when she asked prospective clients what they wanted during a session, some of them would tell her that they just needed to be told what to do- that was the whole point. She would say something like, “Yeah, that’s not going to work.” Everyone is idiosyncratic to a certain extent. Even though their need to submit may be strong, certain scenarios may absolutely not work for them.

There’s a difference between “topping from below” and reaching an understanding with your dominant beforehand what your limits and preferences are. I remember in an earlier column, a woman asked Dan for advice on how to cuckold her husband. Taking what he probably considered middle ground, he told her to tell her lover to act moderately obnoxious to her husband. Being an atypical cuckold myself (not into humiliation), this would have been terrible advice to my wife- it would have soured the whole experience. There really is no substitute to talking out the whole matter of preferences in detail beforehand. In my case, we were already in a loving femdom relationship (with me doing about all the cooking and a lot of the other household chores) when I mentioned that being made a cuckold was a real need of mine. While intrigued, she was unsure and skeptical that it would work out. She agreed to listen to me read cuckold erotic stories I found online. At first I would read a variety, discussing what we liked and didn’t like about them. Then I would just read ones that excited me. Gradually she got a feel for what type of experience excited me and how this new freedom might actually work in real life. We began to incorporate cuckold fantasies into our lovemaking. We did this for over two years before she actually decided to take a lover. Because she knew what I wanted (actually my preferences were few- only that he be personable and not a jerk) she didn’t need my input in picking him out. I didn’t feel the need to be inferior to him (she wouldn’t need a tape measure), so she found someone she was sexually attracted to and just showed up with him one evening.


@69 WA-HOOOOOOOOO!!!! Major congratulations to BiDanFan on scoring the first post Trump Lucky @69 Award honors! Savor the envied deliciousness undoubtedly good fortune heads your way soon in the UK. :)


@72 BiDanFan: You're a musically vibrant young 'un, Bi. :)


Okay. Who's hungry for the first post-Trump Big Hunsky? Tick....tick....tick....


As far as BETTER goes, this is a ham and eggs definition of involvement versus commitment. The chicken is involved, the pig is committed.

BETTER’s partner is the person who will both be fucking someone else AND coming home to lord it over him in the performative aspect of cuckolding. (Without the performance aspect, if she just fucks someone and never says anything, that’s not what gets his rocks off.) Partner is the one who has to do the work to find the bull, vet him for safety/common sexual tastes/fuckability, find time to go bang this dude on a frequent basis, find time to lord it over BETTER on a semi-frequent basis, and if the first bull or two doesn’t work out, she gets to start the find/vet/test fuck washing machine cycle all over again. It’s a shit-ton of effort for something that is 100% all about his penis and questionable what, if anything, she gets out of the arrangement. And it’s like bathing: just like she can’t shower once and stay clean forever, she’s not going to only Vick him once and he’ll be satisfied forever. Ham and eggs.

So! She knows a man who is safe and trusted, Covid-safe-enough, fucks well enough to be worth fucking again, he gets cucked, and SHE gets something equally good out of the arrangement. Win! (Anyone saying he should be careful about why she wants to fuck THIS particular ex-FWB because there might be an emotional connection, well, duh, of course there is, and fucking someone she likes and trusts and feels safe around us clearly part of the good stuff for HER.). Awesome! Everyone gets laid! Except...BETTER doesn’t get 100% of what he wants. He only gets 90% of it, which isn’t acceptable and so he writes to Dan asking Dan to give him permission to shut his girlfriend down.

This is the kink version of “but it feels better without a condom,” where the desires of the person with the would-be condomless penis are so important that they outweigh anything that the other party wants out of the deal. It’s just as much a shitty and inconsiderate thing to do to one’s partner, as well.

My advice to BETTER is to contact his therapist, learn to practice gratitude for his GGG partner’s willingness to do this work to get his rocks off, learn to be empathetic to his partner’s needs, learn to constructively manage his own expectations, and learn to accept that in some life situations we have settle. Like in the middle of a viral plague, the known safe bull in your Covid pod is the bull you’re gonna get. If that’s too much to ask, then he can take on all the work himself by finding and paying a broke-ass graduate student with a fake picture of some random hottie to write RP fix about just what he did to her and let his partner just enjoy no-strings fucking.


On that thought...if the overarching situation is such that the only bull available is the bull in the COVID pod, and BETTER isn’t interested in that bull and that’s not negotiable, then BETTER NEEDS TO FUCKING DROP THE SUBJECT until such a time as he, his partner, and any potential bulls are all vaccinated. I mean, Jesus H Spaghetti Monster on a pied purple cow. This is beyond a discussion of what’s GGG or is this working for me or who is topping from below, it’s basic safety and basic consideration for his partner. Basic.

If he just can’t drop it, and he’s not willing to accept fantasies like hiring the broke-ass grad student or play acting, and he keeps pushing her to find a different bull in spite of the potentially lethal virus hanging around (and we can infer that he’s not in Aoteroa because he mentioned a Covid pod to begin with), then he needs a hard reality check right the fuck now. That’s on the flight path to DTMFA territory.


@80 I find that ‘it feels better without a condom’ is just a face saving way of saying ‘if I put a condom on, it’s goodbye erection’.


venn @59 I would guess that people feel that pronouncing words from another language as close to correct as possible would make them sound ridiculous or "posh" or like they are showing off. Perhaps especially so with French words.


Happy 50th, 🎉Fan. Whenever it arrives.


Alison @73: "He looked bored and like he wanted us out of his store. Which was rude." So yet again, it's the context and not the word girls that was the problem.

Slinky @80, you get the gold star for your analysis of BETTER's dilemma. I wonder if the issue with this particular bull is that Ms BETTER stopped seeing him in order to get serious with BETTER. Without that history, would BETTER be able to see a range of men as "threats" to his relationship? He has literal proof she prefers him, so perhaps that's the boner killer. EricaP @75 is also correct that the guy being cucked should not get equal say. I don't, however, see a veto as being "equal say" -- equal say would be the right to rule someone in, not just out. But I do agree that exercising his veto will probably mean he never gets cucked. Which is more important to him: making cucking a reality or keeping it an idealised fantasy?

Jodo @82, I don't.

Thanks, Lava @84 - a few months to go yet, perhaps some sort of celebration with friends will even be possible by then. I can hope.


@85 Happy 50th BiDanFan, Big hugs, positrons, and VW beeps from my beloved VW and me to you! We hope you had a kickass birthday! :)
Speaking of birthdays...
Griz celebrated Geena Davis's birthday with Beetlejuice and Thelma & Louise.
Griz and her beloved Love Beetle


EricaP@75~ "...My advice to BETTER is that a bird in the hand is worth two in the bush..."
Are you sure? Have you ever had a bird in your bush?


Donny @88, joining the two threads, bird is British slang for woman.
It's been far too long since I have had a bird in my bush. :)

Fubar, if you're here, I am loving the "mute user" and "block user" options! :D


l-dub 1... my gut is totally the opposite of dan's advice here, but... i'm a straight dude, and the politics of HIV status among gay men is a completely different world from the one i inhabit.

l-dub 2... you are being so fucking stupid!!!! you idiot!!!! you can't have everything you want right away, so you might sabotage it all. and the things you want are a tall order! stop being so dumb. start talking to your therapist about the word 'compromise.'

l-dub 3... coronavirus must be pretty easy for you. i mean, no one probably ever invited you to ever do anything with them before, so what's the difference now? it is obvious from one letter that you are insufferable. if you ever want to get invited to a dinner party again, learn to get tf over yourself.


EricaP @75, Donny @88: A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush. but a bird in the bush is worth two in a taxi.

The origin of that line is lost in my memory, and Google can't find it, but it might have been The Goon Show.

BiDanFan @89: I'm glad you're enjoying it. If you have the newest version, you can also highlight users, which I'm finding useful.


Not much bush left, Donny, and Mr Gillette is smiling.
Yet, a movement again is on where some young women are not shaving, and showing pictures on the internet of their hairy armpits, to prove it.


Oh Fan, you’ve joined the dividers. With trump and his gang gone, being divisive is passé now.


Whatever. Lucky there’s an audience out there we write for. Not for the couple of fragile minded people who post here. And it’s a new dawn, and it feels much better.


fubar @91 - here's another version: "A girl in one's digs is worth two in a taxi," from Oxbridge Men: British Masculinity and the Undergraduate Experience, 1850-1920


In honor of our President Joe Biden and Vice President Kamala Harris, and Democrat controlled Senate, House, and Congress, and inspired by Randy Rainbow on his oh-so spot on song parodies of Donald Jackass Trump, Griz offers this latest song parody for the Savage Love Archives:

Ashamed to be Republicans*
(*sung to Lee Greenwood's "Proud to be an American")

I've watched our once great country steadily decline
While greedy right-wing conservatives bilk trillions, and they still whine.
In four decades since Reagan they've brought us to our knees.
Their idea of a "President" is nothing but a disease.

refrain: They should be ashamed to be Republicans, the party full of crooks!
When they're not robbing the citizens, they're doctoring the books!
That's why I cast my registered vote to end their fascist reign.
How can anyone of sound mind elect the criminally insane?

After Joe Biden's landslide MAGAs claimed "voter fraud".
Angry Trump militias stormed the Capitol for their "Gawd".
Guns, violence, and hatred left five people dead
And 400,000 lost to COVID because Trump played golf instead.

II think this latest one is comparable to my pre-2020 election song parody, "Fighting off TRUMPVID-19", sung to Steeler's Wheel's classic 1972 rock number, "Stuck in the Middle with You"
Don't forget to vote Dem in the 2022 midterms, too,, folks, if you want to keep what's left of our democracy!


@78 BiDanFan: My comment @78 was not at ll meant to offend or piss you off. I admire your youthful exuberance.


And thank you, fubar and BiDanFan (@61) for again sharing the Slog blocker link.


....and this week's first post-Trump Big Hunsky winner IS..........


I've never been in a cuckold relationship, so I'm sure I'll get something wrong, but I've been finding this conversation fascinating, in part because both sides have valid points.

Initially, I was 100% on team You Can't Get Every Single Thing You Want. All the arguments are good: she's going to have to take on the lion's share of risk, of hassle, of potential grossness/bad sex or possible sexual assault. She is the one who has to have the sex--shouldn't who she has sex with be up to her? This guy is making unreasonable demands, especially in light of the fact that we're in a pandemic. He's being too greedy and selfish; he should count his blessings.

I still agree with all of those points.

But I hadn't thought about the issue of getting a bull being for both of them, for the couple, for the good of the relationship. If that's the case, then it only makes sense for the bull to be someone that the stag feels inferior to and furthermore in the case of this specific dude, that inferiority seems to have to be based in outward sexual appeal (I am curious how he knows that the gf's ex-fwb is not as hung as he, the lw, is).

I think depending on whether BETTER wants to be in the room, actually watching--à la Jerry Falwell, Jr.--or just wants to hear about it afterwards, an obvious solution is for the gf to exaggerate the size of the bull's penis in the telling, as well as show BETTER some random hot guy off the internet. It wouldn't work in the case of this former FWB, because BETTER seems to have seen him and has ruled him out as hitting his erotic nerve.*

But unless they can find the perfect person that makes the gf feel safe, to whom she has an attraction, and with whom she feels some sort of connection, who ALSO happens to be better looking and better endowed than her bf (and all this during Covid, too, unless they're willing to wait several months), they're going to have to come to some sort of arrangement in which one lies and the other pretends to believe the lie. If BETTER needs to watch, well then, he either needs to be more flexible in whom he considers appropriate or erotic, or this is going to be a very long search.

*It's possible that BETTER hasn't seen this dude's face or dick, but that the gf has told him that he's better looking and better hung. If that's the case, perhaps she can tell BETTER that she wasn't being truthful before, but rather trying to be complimentary--that the ex-FWB actually is hung like a stallion and extremely good-looking. I doubt that would work at this stage of the game, but it might be worth a try.


@100 WA-HOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!! Major congratulations to nocutename on scoring this week's first post Trump Big Hunsky honors! Bask in the glory and savor your newfound shower of riches and good fortune. :)


Have my comments been blocked?


@101: Thank you, auntie grizelda.


Nope, Griz, we see you.

Nocutename @100, whether or not BETTER wants to watch, whether or not he’s justified in wanting this that or the other bull, and whether or not we live in Covid-land, he has to learn to be appreciative of what his girlfriend is willing to do on his behalf and manage his expectations anyway, because we live in the real world.

Her consent and willing participation is more important than his penis, period, end of.

BETTER wants a super-hot well-hung man to bang his girlfriend for the benefit of BETTER’s sexual jollies. The consent and willing participation of the super-hot well-hung man also is more important than BETTER’s penis, period, end of.

There is zero guarantee that GF will be able to pull the kind of man who gets BETTER’s rocks off. If GF is average looking, as most of us are, she’ll have a harder time finding a super hot well hung dude to bang her because in my experience those dudes don’t bang “only average” looking women. If they are, they have such a choice of willing pussy on offer that GF is one of many, and even if he’s willing he may have other people he wants to bang more. And so BETTER either learns to settle for the possible or he has to do without.

There is zero guarantee that BETTER or GF will find “the right” bull, any more than any person will find “the one.” If GF acquiesces to BETTER’s veto of her former FWB, who is vetted and trusted and acceptable to GF and so 80% of the hard work for her is done,* there’s no guarantee that either of them will come up with a good-enough bull after that. And so BETTER can learn to accept the possible, or the possible-for-now, or he can learn to do without.

BETTER’s consent matters too, but because he’s not the one actually screwing the bull, his decision carries less weight, and it should. That’s another thing he needs to learn: to accept that fact with grace. The fact that it’s a hard-wired kink doesn’t exempt him from this requirement. GF could find a willing man who is a great lay, treats her well, and checks all of BETTER’s boxes, but if BETTER isn’t gracious to the bull or GF, or he gets so demanding that both GF and Bull say Fuck This, or he repeatedly prioritizes his penis over their safety/life/good time, he’s going to learn the hard way that he has to live without.

IMO this is stuff he needs to sort out with his therapist BEFORE his girlfriend goes looking for someone to bang. These are his issues, not hers, and it would be grossly unfair and a BAD idea to use girlfriend as his unpaid therapist for something that affects her so intimately. In the meantime, role-playing is fun and easy logistically and they can explore that kink while BETTER pulls his head out of his ass.

*the other 20% of the work this kink requires is dealing directly with him


@104: slinky, I really appreciate what you have to say on the subject, and I don't disagree with any of it. I think overall you are absolutely correct.

But it seemed to me that the gf is only going along with this to please BETTER, and if she has no real interest in having sex with her former fwb, and he won't trip BETTER's erotic trigger, I don't think that BETTER should be told that this is the option, take it or leave it.

Because if the whole point is that BETTER needs to feel bested to get off, and the ex-fwb doesn't make him feel that way (and hence BETTER doesn't get off), then this doesn't sound like successful cuckolding to me.

And while I agree that BETTER sounds like an ingrate and that he should take his gf's desires into consideration (perhaps her desires trump his), and she should have veto power, I also think that insisting BETTER be satisfied with someone who doesn't do it for him is similar to someone who is straight being urged to have sex with someone of the same sex/gender because it's more logical or convenient. If the whole kink is tied up in BETTER's thinking that some guy who's better than he is, is having sex with his girlfriend and getting her off better than he, BETTER could, he has to believe that.

I mean, maybe these two are just incompatible. It's possible.


I'm not insisting he be satisfied with her fucking her FWB -- I'm suggesting he give it a try and see how it goes.

I'm also curious how much of their sex life centers on his fetishes (leg irons, handcuffs, and talk of cuckolding him), versus whatever she enjoys. Is he GGG in return?


slinky@104 "If GF is average looking, as most of us are, she’ll have a harder time finding a super hot well hung dude to bang her"

That's a good point. Is he going to dump her if she can't attract such men, especially as she gets older?

Starting to think she'd be better off without either of these guys (BETTER or the FWB). She's GGG, she could look for a pleasant foot fetishist (or whatever) instead.

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