Savage Love Mar 16, 2021 at 3:59 pm

The Phone Job

Joe Newton

Comments

104

Ms Cute - I shouldn't worry overmuch about the loss of the friendship; neither of the two sounds as if there was much "there" there.

105

Harriet @99, yes, Margaritaā€™s sorry experience and the one in the letter are comparable. Consent is absent from both. The deal was LW1 recount particulars, not that husband was also going to jack off while on the phone.
LW1, this is your way out of this experience with phone sex man.. tell him you didnā€™t consent to his behaviour only that you retell what happened. That youā€™re not comfortable with the situation and either he stops doing in on the phone when you talking to him or youā€™d record after each sex session with his wife.
If half the buzz for this man is squirting sperm in your phone ear, then here he will bail, and you can point out to him that youā€™re not into men. Heā€™s obviously getting some pleasure, and perhaps easing his jealousy, by having you witness his sexual behaviour. This however was not part of the deal you signed up for.
Dan did give you the perfect out.

106

Doesnā€™t sound like much of a marriage either, Mr Venn @104.

108

@100: WA-HOOOOOOOOOO!!!! Big congratulations to fubar, on scoring this week's @100 Big Hunsky Award honors! Savor your envied riches and bask in the glory. :)
fubar, your good fortune must have rubbed off on Griz. No stimulus payment yet, but I hit a lucky lottery scratch ticket that will help get me through the weekend. :)

109

@101 fubar Agreed and seconded with you, too, about the beast.

110

fubar @101, you're so eager to take the husband's side as if every husband is entitled to a super GGG wife without being at all GGG in return.

I'll repeat my question @97
In your view, what price should the cuckold pay for getting his fetish fulfilled? What responsibilities does he incur, in exchange for his wife's kindness?

111

Cuckolds want the world to think "this is her idea! She's the lusty slut who isn't satisfied by her inadequate husband."

None of that is true. From what I've seen, women are very unhappy with the idea -- unless she's the type who was cheating all along until she got caught and her husband managed to eroticize his anger, but those are a tiny minority.

The ones who are unhappy sometimes stay unhappy and it ends their marriages. Otherwise they adapt, as the husband demonstrates how happy it makes him and that makes it worthwhile. But it's not for the benefit of the wife -- that's just the storyline of his fantasy.

112

In other news:
A Georgia, USA man shot and killed eight women in three different massage parlors in and around Atlanta. Six of the eight murdered women were Asian. While this comes in a time when acts of violence against Asian Americans are on the sharp rise, due to trumpā€™s on going attempts to blame his ineptitude on others, according to police the killer, a white man, ā€œā€¦ apparently has an issue, what he considers a sex addiction, and sees these locations as something that allows him to go to these places, and itā€™s a temptation for him that he wanted to eliminate.ā€
(The police officer stating this went on to say that the murderer ā€œhad a really bad day and this is what he did.ā€
AP reports the officer has a face book post that ā€œpromoted a T-shirt with racist language about China and the coronavirus last year.ā€ The link provided doesnā€™t work anymore.)

As some of you may already know Iā€™m an SAA and SLAA ā€œgraduate.ā€™ā€ As such I can attest that myself and many others have committed plenty unethical acts along the way, though thankfully I never met a killer, serial or otherwise. I think violence against sex workers persists not only because of ā€œaddictionā€ but also because of the conflicting emotions and the shame that often follows right after the act. This can be attributed to religion and other upbringing environments and attitudes to sex.

Iā€™ve heard of too many instances lately where perpetrators were claiming ā€œaddictionā€ in order to excuse themselves. I donā€™t fully buy it, because if you knew all along that you have this addiction which makes you engage in questionable acts you should have acted on it before it all exploded. And if it does explode you should expect, and embrace, the outcome. Many of us in the program said something like, ā€œI wish I would have gotten caught earlier, as it would have forced me to deal with my issues and avoid the quest for a bigger hit next timeā€ at some point or another.

One of the things that can help is recognizing that sex addiction does exist and provide professional help for those who in need like we already have with alcohol and substance abuse.
(When I joined SL few years ago Dan and the guest experts repeatedly claimed there is no such thing as sex addiction. There have been some possible gestures and de facto recognitions in recent years, but so far nothing like an unequivocal statement that the phenomenon really does exist as far as I recall.)

Another step to take, one that has been championed here all along, is legalizing sex work. If done right this will increase everyoneā€™s safety, workers and clients alike, and will also sharply reduce trafficking and other issues.

Disclaimer: while I had some unforgettable kinky encounters with equally interested ordinary folks and look forward to having many more, I also had some paid ones with pros. They were nicely treated and compensated, and also helped me figure out what works and how to implement whatever it is that I wanted to implement with those interested ordinary folks which I promise Iā€™ll never forget.

Lastly, the murdererā€™s hometown is named Woodstock. As someone who grew up a while ago in a small place in a faraway small country who always appreciated music Woodstock was my idea of ā€œAmericaā€ before moving to the US as an adult. Sadly, Woodstock Georgia is much closer to the real thing.

113

And here's the AP link I failed to post:
https://apnews.com/article/georgia-massage-parlor-shootings-leave-8-dead-f3841a8e0215d3ab3d1f23d489b7af81

114

Griz @98, what's that saying about not chalking up to malice what could easily be explained by incompetence? Over here all government staff -- including the tax staff -- has been cut so much it is taking 8+ months for companies to get refunds. That too is down to conservative governments cutting taxes for their mates then not being able to fund a functioning system -- duh!! Fingers crossed for you.

Harriet @99, or he, too, as you said so well, was already unzipped before the end of their conversation. That's another possibility -- if they are new at this, if they haven't managed to find someone to fulfil this long-running fantasy, Mr Cuck may have just become so turned on during the dressing down he felt compelled to take things into his own hands, not considering that this might bother DACUCK, or indeed, that he would even be aware. He didn't advise him of this in advance because he hadn't planned that far ahead. Slim chance perhaps, but worth considering. The important thing, indeed, is that they clear the air now.

Fubar @101, I'm confused; you say "agreed" and then you go on to disagree. I don't think that in "classic" cuckolding the man need be in the room. It's simply that he's turned on by, instead of upset by, the humiliation of his wife fucking other men (with no reciprocal agreement for him) that makes him a cuck. I've never understood voyeurism to be a necessary ingredient. Perhaps a letter to Dan is in order.

Slinky @102, I'm not sure why you're splitting hairs with me when I agreed with you. I was using "rural" as shorthand for "not urban" and I hope it was understood by most to have that meaning.

Griz @108: Woo hoo! The universe heeded your call! Spend it wisely, even if the wisest thing may be to spend it frivolously. :)

EricaP @111, isn't it possible that we only hear from the unhappy cuck-wives because the happy cuck-wives are keeping it on the down low? Society would be quick to judge such wives. Personally, I can see a lot of appeal in the idea of a relationship that was open to me only, with someone who was turned on by my extracurricular activities -- so long as he avoided what seem the most common pitfalls of being too pushy and not leaving the choice of bull up to me. I accept that I would be in the minority, and also that the reality may differ significantly from the idea, but certainly there are possibilities other than a pre-existing cheater who turns a non-cuck into a cuck (which I would find extremely unlikely). Surely, many ethically non-monogamous women, particularly dominant-inclined ones, could happily partner with cucks?

115

This recalls the discussion a few weeks back about whether it is appropriate to masturbate in bed while your partner is sleeping. Rule of thumb: If you think the other person isn't aware you're beating off, you're wrong.

116

Correction to @114, I can see how someone with latent cuck tendencies might have them awakened when a partner cheated and instead of being angry, he felt turned on. Which is not the same thing as a non-cuck being turned into a cuck, rather a cuck being "outed" by the cheating instead of outing himself and requesting it.

117

EP @ 110
Your fetlife impression of the cuckolding phenomenon is valid, but please also keep in mind that if commercial companiesā€™ summary of customer response is any indication, then those who had a bad experience are much more likely to tell you about it. I assume that was also BDF's point @ 114.
In our case we know the wife is having great sex and we also know that she easily avoided any post event commentary. We know the husband did not fully disclose to LW what this post event commentary may entail, yet we also assume that he made sure the wifeā€™s preference is accommodated and all is done in a safe manner.

118

Go Erica!
Calling all wives who jump for joy at this arrangement, please speak up now.
Hunter is not a beast. He never tried to dismantle the thread. His sexism is mild, obvious and harmless, compared to some.
Not like Hunter to disappear, he kept returning. Until he didnā€™t. Like me, heā€™s an ā€˜olderā€™ person. Sure hope the virus hasnā€™t taken him.

119

To the question of what price the cuck pays to realise his fantasy, the most obvious answer is having to forgo otherwise promising relationships because the vast majority of women won't want to accommodate him. This may be heartbreaking in many cases. There's also the years of internalised shame around what he wants, the risk -- rather the inevitability -- that partners he brings this up with will shame him for it, the strong likelihood that he will have to settle in other areas for a partner who is willing to be GGG for him or not have a partner at all. And of course, that ideally he will have to be GGG too for her kinks which he may not share. Plus the already mentioned, having to accept her choice of bull and having his kink fulfilment dependent on someone else's schedule. She may only meet someone she wants to bang once or twice a year, yes? So, another price is patience. These seem prices all kinksters pay.

120

True CMD, the woman in this scenario has got what she wanted. Maybe thatā€™s why husband has made the LW do the whole rehash, with sound effects. Because his wife was very attracted to LW, and husband wants LW to do the suffering, rather than his wife, because heā€™s jealous.
What you could do LW1, is have the sex, and not make the phone call, not be available to receive his call. Then repeat. See how husband responds. Being an Aussie, you can be pretty sure heā€™s not carrying.
Itā€™s all going to blow up anyway, LW1. Let us know which way the wife jumps.

121

Oh also, the risk, particularly if she had to be convinced, that his wife will ditch him for the bull.

122

@Harriet @fubar @LavaGirl thank you for your words of sympathy re: rope wanker. There was a brief postscript to this story, when some months later, the local peer rope group posted a PSA about him. They said that this person was banned from their events (and other rope events) and they became aware that he was contacting new people, badmouthing the local rope scene, and trying to get women to meet him outside of events or in private. I commented about my experience with him, and other women chimed in with similar stories. I never did figure out if he was a real-life predator or just a creepy online time-waster. In retrospect, his Fet messages were often sent in the middle of the night and were full of typos, as if written in a hurry while the spouse was asleep (he said something about shift work and new phone, so I didn't register it as a red flag at the time). On the other hand, he had lots of cool rope pictures which seemed genuine (i.e. not stolen), with different models, giving an impression of someone active in the community, but I suppose these could have been old. Either way, lucky escape I guess.

123

EricaP @110: "you're so eager to take the husband's side as if every husband is entitled to a super GGG wife without being at all GGG in return."

Um. No.

The wife enjoys having sex with DACUCK. She's not taking one for the team, at least according to DACUCK. All evidence is that, at least for the husband and wife, this is a mutually GGG arrangement. Nobody is complaining but DACUCK.

I agree with others that DACUCK wasn't sufficiently informed about the string that is attached, but like Dadddy @53, I don't think this really is much of a string. I'd be on that deal like a cop on a donut.

124

Ah, having read your next comment, EricaP @111, I see where you're coming from. You have a preconceived bias against cuckolding that has nothing to do with this letter.

125

I've run across a few dating profiles by women seeking a cuck.
(I didn't apply for what they were seeking, but I did offer to be a bull.)

126

Ms Lava - It's hard to say how accurate LW1's observations are. I don't doubt his sincerity; he just seems to hold W1 in such high regard that he might be inflating signs of reciprocated esteem.

127

@105. Lava. 'And just after I said down the phone, 'and then she was all like, 'ooh, after my husband, you're so girthy! You're the man! The bull! The stud! The man!' ', I heard this quiet fapping and groaning sound in the background, and to my outrage--my outrage, I tell you; I was shocked, shocked--I realised my friend was ... rubbing one out!'

What did he imagine? Why did he think his friend wanted the lowdown from him, not just from his wife--if his friend didn't have some kind of erotic investment in his phone conversation? I'm not saying that he consented to it, should have expected it, or has left himself no space to withdraw his consent. (There's always space to withdraw consent). I'm saying it was a context where consent may have been presumed, and presumed wrongly as it happens. It was clearly a context where both were allowed to roleplay and improvise--DACUCK did, for instance, in trashtalking the husband.

The conversations in which one choreographs threesomes in advances are often tense and unsexy. I've heard things that have made me pull out i.e. not go through with them, and heard lots of thing partners were proposing for each other that made me do a double-take and ask the other partner, 'are you into that? do you like that? would you be prepared to do that?'. Lost Margarita was having a conversation that was about sex, but which was supposedly coolly rational and exploratory; there was not the background presumption, as there was here, that the conversation was part of the sex itself.

128

@97. Erica. My experience of MMM threesomes is that (usually) my partner proves his prowess by gratifying a series of holes. (He is getting older, and I think this is mostly in the past). My experience of being hotwifed (as an effeminate man / as the NB and more femme person in the relationship) has almost always been for a vers guy to fuck me with my 'husband' present and onlooking, before he takes over and shows the greenhorn how it's done. (This has been a scene that more than one boyfriend has wanted to repeat with me). I've been into this as much as anyone else--and sometimes, I've thought, more. I have had threesomes with MF couples, but zero experience bulling or hotwifing. (The thought is funny).

My feeling about 'your well-established view' is that it risks eliding female agency. You say that wives are 'disturbed' by the idea they have to humiliate their husbands, but are silent on whether it's disturbing to them that they are lined up to have sex with guys other than their husbands. It would seem that, in your view, the extramural sex isn't so much of an ask, but the domination or humiliation is. But this seems to be your scheme of priorities to me, or your hierarchy of what is reasonable and desirable. I can't think it's like this for all hotwives--that they can't enter into their partner's kink, for instance by finding erotic satisfaction in demeaning him. It may just be a harder thing to admit outside of a certain circle. There are far more pressures on women to profess monogamy, satisfaction with monogamy, and respect for the manliness, capability, ability to provide, studliness, and so forth, of one's husband, than there are pressures on men--for whom being a man psychologically may involve being tempted by the prospect of strange pussy.

If a hesitant prospective hotwife does not like the idea of hotwifing in a way that gratifies her partner, she should say no to the whole set-up. A poor line to take would be that she'll do the humiliating stuff she isn't crazy about, to get the sex she likes or can live with.

@92. Fantastic. I think your surmise is correct and that what DACUCK is angling for is getting to fuck Mrs Friend without the string of the phone calls.

I have to feel they should say no and find a genuine bull.

129

Harriet @128, exactly. He didn't ask, "Is it okay if I ask my friend to stop wanking during these phone calls?" He asked, "Is it okay to cut my friend out of the arrangement entirely?" That's why I had little sympathy.

130

@122. Lost. Yes, a lucky escape; as someone who groups and is kink-adjacent, if not in my own mind kinky, I have to say that some desperate, abusive and frustrated people have a peculiar idea of who we are as a loose community.

@118. Lava. You might as well put out a call for all wives who settled for someone stable and boring. Many women did this, and few will wave their hands like banshees and tell strangers.

@111. Bi, apropos what you say to Erica about our not hearing from satisfied, into-it hotwives: yes to all this; I'm saying the same.

132

Interesting points Mr D @131.
I wish Iā€™d gone for stable, Harriet @130. Stable is good. Stable gets things achieved and it doesnā€™t necessarily go with boring.

133

I donā€™t know what he imagined, Harriet. @107, this man is Australian, heā€™d never talk like that. ā€œ I gave the Sheila my six inches, sheā€™s groaning and moving around under me till I doused her with my spunk.ā€™
Call him naive he still didnā€™t consent to hearing the husband jack off.
I will do anything for love / sex, but I wonā€™t do that.

134

curious2 @125 ā€œI've run across a few dating profiles by women seeking a cuck.ā€

There are many con artists seeking vulnerable men on dating sites. Unless you actually got to know these women in person, you canā€™t say that they were honestly women with a fetish, rather than people of unknown gender seeking a man to exploit.

Harriet @128: ā€œI've been into this as much as anyone else--and sometimes, I've thought, more.ā€
You are an ā€œeffeminate man / NB / more femme person [in your relationships]ā€ and I accept that you come to this sort of humiliation play from your own desires.

Thatā€™s not evidence that lots of cis women in ordinary cis MF couples came to their relationships eager to humiliate their husbands.

You wrote that if ā€œa hesitant prospective hotwife does not like the idea of hotwifing in a way that gratifies her partner, she should say no to the whole set-upā€ ā€“ but what comes next? She has to divorce him, or put up with years of pestering. I think you havenā€™t talked to many cis women in these cuckold dynamics.

The whole reason there is a term ā€œhotwifeā€ is that women can live with that term when they havenā€™t yet been pestered into accepting the cuckold fetish. A hotwife doesnā€™t generally humiliate her husband.

BiDanFan @114 ā€œisn't it possible that we only hear from the unhappy cuck-wives because the happy cuck-wives are keeping it on the down low?ā€

In the polyamory and D/s discussions groups on Fetlife, cheerful women are the majority of the posters, answering questions from newbies and from people struggling with some aspect.

In the cuckold groups, men are the large majority of the posters, and mostly the threads are about ā€œhow do I persuade my wife to do this?ā€ The women who participate are ones who have come to terms with their husbandā€™s fetish and are there to offer advice about what worked to convince them. Thereā€™s nothing stopping happy women with this fetish from chiming in to tell men that they should keep looking until they find a more compatible partner ā€“ but no one ever does, because women with this fetish are exceedingly rare and generally acquired the fetish from their eager husband.

CMDwannabe @117: ā€œIn our case we know the wife is having great sexā€
No, we just know that she tells our LW that she loves having sex with him. Which is exactly what she would say if she found the sex with LW an acceptable improvement over her husband pestering her.

fubar @123 ā€œThe wife enjoys having sex with DACUCK. She's not taking one for the teamā€
If she were taking one for the team, she would still tell DACUCK that she loves having sex with him. What else can she possible tell him, if she wants him to keep showing up so that she can stop listening to her husband pester her?

fubar @124 ā€œ You have a preconceived bias against cuckoldingā€

No, I get along well with sensible cuckolds and find it to be a completely reasonable kink. But there are a ton of newbie cuckolds out there with the preconception that their wife will actually be into the kink, and that the extracurricular sex is itself the payoff for her participation.

That's just not true, in most cases. The wife is (usually) doing it to please her husband. The sensible cuckold with a GGG wife is like any other sensible serious fetishist with a GGG spouse. He doesnā€™t take her for granted. And he is open to her suggestions for how to make his fetish more appealing to her. And he thinks about the long game ā€“ how to keep this humming along sustainably for decades rather than how to get the most excitement today, regardless of his wifeā€™s preferences.

BiDanFan @121 - you are absolutely right that the cuckold is taking the risk that his wife may leave him. And why is she likely to leave him? It's not because he has an inadequate penis and is inadequate in the sack (though he may tell himself that). It's because in many cases he refuses to have ordinary sex with her, and treats her like a fetish dispensing machine, rather than like a full person.

135

Dadddy @131: Not to mention the celebrities who, when caught having some old fashioned illicit extramarital sex, pull the sex addiction/get out of jail free card, and scurry off to do a few weeks penance in rehab.

You make an excellent point about the shaming of sex workers and their clients. In Canada we have an epidemic of missing and murdered indigenous women, who the justice system treat as dispensable and not worth investigating.

136

EricaP @134: I see your point. In this column, as always, we only have the word of the LW (and I've already accused him of dickful thinking). But you've provided a different perspective for consideration. Thanks for taking the time to do so.

137

EricaP @134
"There are many con artists seeking vulnerable men on dating sites. Unless you actually got to know these women in person, you canā€™t say that they were honestly women with a fetish, rather than people of unknown gender seeking a man to exploit."

Well that's true of course; that's always true on those damn sites. But as you acknowledge, it's entirely plausible that they were honest.

It's been awhile so I can't recall the details.

On a completely different topic, I recall a listing by a lesbian couple for a guy. That one seemed quite convincing to me.

138

EP @ 134
You probably discussed cuckolding with way more people than I did and noticed occurring patterns. I still think that in our case as presented to us by DACUCK there is no indication that the wife has no say and only goes along in order to please her nagging husband.
We know she has good sex, possibly chose the man, and had no problem avoiding any post event discussions while all involved are ok with it.

Dadddy @ 131
There are different ideas as to what constitutes ā€œsex addictionā€ since sex is an integral part of our life and well-being, as opposed to the clear cut of ā€œno drinkingā€ associated with AA.
Some sexual inclinations/preferences may be a burden to some yet joyful to others. Since things are often blurry and possibly shameful many who could benefit from looking into their issues never do it.

I question your observation that sex addicts are usually het men who got caught by their wives doing something of a sexual nature on the side. It is based on spending years in rooms with people of all ages, genders, and orientations.

I think I touched on the importance of legalizing sex work and respecting workers and clients alike.

Fubar @ 135
I think I also touched on people claiming ā€œsex addictionā€ in order to excuse themselves and hope for consideration. My position is they still need to pay the full price, and itā€™s for their own good as well.
Looks like much of your and many others main experience with the sex addiction phenomenon is witnessing celebrities abusing the term. Iā€™d like to point that celebrities pull the same ā€œscurry off to do a few weeks penance in rehabā€ once they get caught for drunk driving, using drugs, or accused of domestic violence.

139

CMD @138: My non-celebrity experience with sex addiction was (by my diagnosis) with a former and once close friend in the 1990s who saw sex workers behind the back of his very fine wife, who I knew and liked.

He got busted by an undercover police woman, reported in the newspapers, sent to John school. His wife found out, he lied and promised to stop. He did not stop.

By that point, our friendship had degenerated into pints of beer and him telling me stories - despite my asking him not to - of his exploits. For example, the 18-y/o sex workers he'd fuck bareback in the ass (and, when asked, whose names he never knew), then fuck his wife, despite the HIV/AIDS thing we had going on back then.

Addiction can turn people into assholes.

140

@114 BiDanFan: I have a wonderful news update about the economic stimulus situation: I logged in online with the IRS and found that I will receive my payment on Wednesday, March 24th--or it's scheduled to go out on that day. I sure hope so---my phone / internet bill comes due on the 27th. But the money will indeed be enough of a boost to get me through te rest of the month. :)
I like your idea of a little frivolity spending-wise. I am going in for my first of two Pfizer COVID jabs through the VA tomorrow morning. Now I can treat my neighbor friend driving me to and from the nearest VA medical clinic (25 miles away in the next county) to lunch and spring for gas. :)

Sorry Dan and evryone that I don't have much more to add to the LWs and this week's comment thread, other than reading letters, Dan's responses, and the comments. I have been going to additional physical therapy for back pain, and ongoing pain in my wrists and lower arms. I did manage to have quite a productive mini flute concert last night--solo pieces on my piccolo, C and alto flutes. I plan to take it easy this weekend with a fitting movie for tonight being The Big Chill (1983). with a celebrity Happy Birthday wish to award-winning actress Glenn Close, who turned 74 today. :)

To those celebrating Wednesday, I hope you all had a kickass St. Pat's! :)

And Spring is springing--and I hope to retrieve my beloved Emotional Support Love Beetle home from winter storage soon----I'm looking at maybe sometime next month if the weather allows. :)

141

@134. Erica. I'm not really being humiliated. I'm fucking at my partner's behest, and in that sense doing something like hotwifing; but, as you say, the similarities are limited: it's about my partner being sexually super-potent in fantasy, not about his being sexually less potent or outstripped.

I know women who group, who roleplay sluts, and who fuck around in a male-identified way--not so much hotwives who entertain bulls with their partner privately. I can't see, very much like BiDanFan, that there can be no women, or very few women, who are into it for themselves. There's an idea of GGG one could gather from your description--that hotwives don't like humiliating their husbands but go along with it, as per GGG, for what they can get out of it. I profoundly disagree with this idea of GGG: that it's about scorekeeping and strengthening your hand for future negotiations.

I see that your views are considered and that I'm not likely to change them. Perhaps the side of the kink that involves taunting, the woman Domming or making out that the husband is inadequate, too closely resembles abuse for you.

@133. Lava. You don't have to do it--he doesn't have to, in fact--and let's hope DACUCK isn't doing anything for love.

I don't know what he says down the phone. You have him saying things about himself, his spurting cock, and her, but we know he says things about his friend, the cuck, as well. One thought that crossed my mind was that perhaps the couple chose him because he's Conan the Barbarian, or Hogan the Barbarian, if you will: studly, but not the kind of person intellectually or in personality terms Friend's wife could develop a deep attachment to. But we don't know....

142

Erica @134, I appreciate your elaborating on all of this. I would say, though, that DACUCK doesn't say "she told me she enjoys the sex." He said, "the sex is phenomenal for both of us." That would be a lot harder to fake, I think. I'll accept that the number of women who enjoy this may be smaller than I presume, but I continue to see Mrs Cuck from this week's letter as one of the exceptions who's enjoying the sex for its own sake. Probably because she indeed picked DACUCK because she's independently attracted to him. You admit that there are sensible cuckolds and we all know there are women who don't want to be monogamous -- so I'm not sure why, despite evidence to the contrary, you insist this woman isn't enjoying the arrangement.
We also don't know for sure that the couple are new to cuckolding. We know DACUCK is, and we're chalking Mr Cuck's lack of clear communication up to inexperience as well, when this might not be the case. In fact, he may have learned the hard way that asking straight men to fuck his wife and then have phone sex afterwards while he beats off gets a "no," while conveniently omitting the wanking aspect gets a "yes," and after "phenomenal" sex the bull is less likely to walk away. So, don't chalk up to inexperience what you could attribute to questionable ethics perhaps?

"And why is she likely to leave him?" Perhaps not because he refuses vanilla sex, but because she simply doesn't want to cuck.

Griz @140, congrats on the imminent receipt of your money and your imminent jab! Wooohhooooo indeed!

143

While most people who allege 'sex addition' probably aren't, certainly some are. Pretty much anything can be be related to addictively.

I imagine that compulsive behavior towards essentially healthy necessary things (food, sex, etc.) is a particular challenge. It's not like one can completely stop eating, for example; one needs to continue the very thing that one is seeking to limit.

As with anything else, it's about whether it's place in one's life in dysfunctional or not, and whether it's effect on one's life is positive or negative.

144

BDF @142 My point is that we don't know if the sex is great for her or only tolerable and better than her alternatives.

My larger point is letting women know they can negotiate with a cuckold husband and don't have to put up with fulfilling every aspect their husband wants -- the extramarital sex itself doesn't have to count as the part that's for them unless that's how it actually feels, for them.

I find marriages benefit when women are encouraged to consider what activities they might actually want and to negotiate (broadly, not rigidly) to get more of what they want in exchange for satisfying their husband's kinks/fetishes. That's not "scorekeeping," it's seeking balance and sustainability.

Harriet @141 -- many more men love to hear "your dick is inadequate" than women love to say that their beloved life-partner's dick is inadequate. Just as many more people want to be diapered than want to do the diapering.

I'm sure such people exist, but they're a lot less common than the ones going along with the fetish because they see how happy it makes their partner -- and their own separate sexual needs are getting met so they feel loving and giving.

145

edit: I find het marriages benefit

147

Fubar @ 139
I suspect playing Russian roulette while a deadly epidemic is raging and repeating telling you all about it despite being asked not to were part of your formerā€™s friend thrill, or more accurately an addictive hit.

As much as I am for legalizing sex work and loath most of those police temptation tactics, having him paying the full price once getting caught would have been beneficial for him and all others he was involved with. I feel for his wife and the very likely poor runaway girls who had to interact with him.

curious2 @ 143
That's a great observation.

148

@142 BiDanFan: Many thanks. Both my upcoming receipt of the economic stimulus payment and the two Pfizer COVID vaccines are indeed timely, blessed reliefs.

I just received my first jab today at the Mount Vernon VA Community Based Outpatient Clinic today. My second one will be in three weeks. The VA staff were very professional, wonderfully organized, and I was amazed at how quickly everything went. I had very little waiting. Everyone was so nice. I have had no adverse reactions to my first of two Pfizer vaccines so far, so all is well. The VA healthcare worker who administered my jab asked if I would have second thoughts if my second jab was a Moderna. I'd rather have two Pfizers. He looked like he was kidding. I hope my second jab is also a Pfizer vaccine. The feedback on the Moderna, although about as effective in fighting COVID isn't as good as of the Pfizer. It was painless. I didn't think to ask, but I would hate to think that Pfizer and Moderna vaccines would fight each other. Otherwise, all is well. :)

Who's hungry for a Spring Equinox Double Whammy (@169)? Tick...tick...tick....

149

@Harriet_by_the_bullrushes #128
"If a hesitant prospective hotwife does not like the idea of hotwifing in a way that gratifies her partner, she should say no to the whole set-up. A poor line to take would be that she'll do the humiliating stuff she isn't crazy about, to get the sex she likes or can live with."

I don't agree with this, and would like to understand your reasoning better. If humiliating him is a hard limit, then she shouldn't do it. If it's "meh, but I can live with it to get the aspects I do like", I don't see a major problem.

Also, it's perfectly reasonable to try to negotiate. "I'm not into humiliation, would you be ok with me just sharing my adventures?" "I'm not ok with teasing you about your penis size, but I can humiliate you about your performance" "I can humiliate you, but only if it's clearly roleplay" (we dress in specific outfits, I call you by a different name, etc.)

For example, I am fine with my partner crossdressing. I'm uncomfortable with humiliation about it, especially homophobic or misogynistic slurs. I've been able to find a compromise that works for both of us in most cases.

150

@auntie grizelda #148
My understanding is that the booster must match the first shot. The timing between shots varies between Pfizer and Moderna.

I had both shots with minimal side effects (sore arm and fatigue). I hope your second shot goes well!

151

@EricaP #144
"My larger point is letting women know they can negotiate with a cuckold husband and don't have to put up with fulfilling every aspect their husband wants -- the extramarital sex itself doesn't have to count as the part that's for them unless that's how it actually feels, for them."

Absolutely! If she gets off on her husband's excitement when she shares what she did, or loves going dancing, or picking outfits, those are all perfectly valid! Figuring out what works for the two of them together may take some trial and error. It can be counterintuitive.

Both people need to be honest about their bottom line needs and what areas are negotiable. I don't think it's ok for either person to pressure their partner.

The distinction between an ultimatum and a deal breaker is quite difficult for me to perceive. I think it's often in the eye of the beholder. Repeatedly asking after being told no, or being completely unwilling to compromise are both problematic.

152

EricaP @144, and my point is that if he's using a word like "phenomenal" the odds are very low that it's merely "tolerable."

I agree with your larger point, I find it applies to pretty much anything, and while valid it didn't seem relevant to this letter.

Griz @148, it's probably a supply issue. They may not get the choice of the brand of vaccine that comes their way, and they all need to be used quickly. I'd take any approved vaccine! Hope you continue side effect-free.

153

Opalescent @151, it is a fine line isn't it? To me an ultimatum is pressuring someone to do something they are not currently doing, while a dealbreaker is walking away from something someone is currently doing. The ultimatum relates to a desired change while a dealbreaker relates to a status quo. Both are, "This must change or I'm leaving," but the ultimatum demands the change while the dealbreaker accepts that change won't happen therefore leaving will. Or indeed, similar to the difference between an immigrant and an expat being the country you are standing in, an ultimatum is just a dealbreaker from the perspective of the person it's issued to.

154

@150 Opalescent: Thank you for the COVID vaccine dosage clarification. That has been my understanding, too, that the booster must be the same as the first shot (both shots the same drug, whether it's Pfizer or Moderna. I think Johnson & Johnson requires only one vaccination). So far, so good. I go back for my booster in three weeks. :)

@152 BiDanFan: I think so, too--most likely a situation of available supplies. I was amazed by how quickly everything got taken care of at the VA clinic yesterday! So well done. A nurse told me they were scheduled to vaccinate 480 veterans at their location on March 20, 2021 alone. No side effects--so far, so good. :)

155

@auntie grizelda #154
My understanding is that a lot of places won't say ahead of time which they are using. If you need a second dose, it will match the first.

156

Two of my high school buddies in my senior class had birthdays, today, as did actor & singer, Matthew Broderick, who turned 59. Ferris Bueller, you're my hero!
Chic-chic-chic-AHHHHHhhhhhhh:)

157

@155 Opalescent: Should I contact the VA facility about getting a second Pfizer in three weeks? Have you heard anything about the Pfizer and Moderna vaccines fighting each other, or any adverse side effects from using different brands of the vaccine?

158

@144. Erica. Well, it's widely accepted that there's an imbalance in het relationships where the couple pursues or enjoys a kink like ABDP or being a pup / Handling. Perhaps men wanting to cuck should suppose that they'll need to be extraordinarily sensitive in proposing hotwifing to their partners, since a similar imbalance in whether each partner really wants to do it is likely to obtain.

My own experience is that, once concerns with both 1) safety and 2) stigma are assuaged, some ciswomen are prepared to engage in forms of sex that aren't customarily part of the discourse for 'what women like'. Indeed, in some quarters, there's the view, apropos certain activities, 'that's a kink / a form of perversion that only a man could want' ...--yet women seek it out and take pleasure in it. The main thing on my mind here is pegging, though I've also found it true sometimes of grouping and pissplay.

159

@149. Opalescent. I think it's absolutely right that a couple negotiates how much of one partner's kink should be included within their shared sex life.

At the same time, couples can be sexually incompatible. One form this can take is the 'not-into-it' partner doing something sexual 'under duress', and the 'into-it' partner having to live with the frequency, or with the coolness or lack of enthusiasm, with which their lover enters into the kink.

What I was saying to Erica was based on the preconceptions (which might well turn out to be erroneous, and which could not be across the board, anyway) that 1) many, and not just vanishingly few, women might enjoy having sex with another man, mediated through their main partner's involvement and approval; and 2) that Domming or humiliating the man as part of this set-up can be optional in lots of cases. If these things are true, then a good match of cuck and hotwife/cuckoldress is a man who wants to cuck and a woman who wants to hotwife. Isn't a mismatch going to be unsatisfactory for them both? The woman will find the sex a bind; or there's an awful risk that she'll be fucking at his request, and he'll be her pimp; and the guy, who has to be careful not to coerce her, could easily get dispirited if she isn't into it. Wouldn't both be better off in a relationship where they were on the same page about what the sex is like?

I don't think GGG means 'doing things you don't want', or even 'going against your grain' when it comes to sex. To me, it means more something like 'not saying 'no' to stuff in a kneejerk way; not being moralistically and pre-emptively closed-minded about stuff that won't hurt you to try, that might become one of your things'. In a case where one partner knows that their partner's proposal will do nothing for them, in fact is something they find actively antipathetic, I would think it better, almost always, that the not-into-it partner gives the kinkster a pass to explore it aromantically, in a clear fantasy setting and in a sane way (e.g. with respect to time commitment), than they gird their loins (maybe literally) and do something they don't really want. To say something absolutely ridiculous, better to cut a deal by which the 'wife' sometimes sees her parents without her partner, and (in as dadt a way as is necessary) the 'husband' plays without the wife without welshing on his childcare responsibilities.

The background from which I'm saying this is the gay male scene, where men come together as a political collective, in part, on nights out, but where no one imagines that every man / nonbinarian / queer person has the same kinks. For instance, I enjoy pissplay--but I don't have to get fucked while in-scene; and I would never seek to induce a guy for whom it represented a limit (say, because it seemed pathological to him, and homosexuality is definitely not pathological) to piss all over me, esp. in the company of others. Space would be negotiated for this outside the main relationship. My 'prior' is that more het or normatively-het-in-appearance couples should be prepared to cut side deals of this kind; and that wives ('wives' stereotypically, but spouses generally) should move towards understanding that kinks can often be compartmentalised, and that a person's sexuality need not be restricted to a single, exclusive interpersonal attachment.

The difficult case is going to be when a kinkster says to their life-partner, 'but I want YOU to be the person who e.g. says my cock is pitiable'. There may be no workaround for this other than the case-by-case negotiation and give-and-take you describe as a good thing. (And of course it is). But I would want people doing sex education to tell young people at the start of their sex lives, 'find someone with whom you are sexually compatible. If you're kinky, explore your kinks without shame, and find someone with whom you have matching kinks.' And 'in considering a nesting partner, think not just whether you will be complementary in parenting style, in ambition, in aspirations regarding wealth and success, in where you want to live, etc., but whether you're sexually compatible too'. And suugest, as well, that people should explore responsibly but energetically and extensively, to find out what they like--rather than finding it out at their leisure once they are within an emotionally and financially secure monogamous partnership.

160

Harriet @158, this strikes me as a variation on "women can get all the sex they want!" The men who say this assume that women want the kind of sex -they- want - indiscriminate casual sex, which women indeed can easily get, but which few women actually want. The cuck thinks he's being generous by telling his partner she can go fuck all the men she likes, not considering that the number of other men she'd like to fuck may be zero.

Given the difference between cucking and hotwifing, it strikes me that this week's letter may feature a man into cucking and a woman into hotwifing. Their compromise is that he gets the humiliation element from the third, since she isn't into that part. It's either this, or that he needs the humiliation to come from the bull directly. Shame Mr Cuck is not here to ask.

Seconding your PSA that there are indeed women who are independently into pegging, not just as a way of being GGG. :D

161

@157 auntie grizelda
You definitely should schedule your booster shot in ~3 weeks, if they didn't schedule it when you got the first one.

I haven't heard of any problems specifically from mixing different brands. However, no clinical trials were performed to evaluate the efficacy. I'm sure it's a moot point and they will give you Pfizer since that's what you had for the first shot. You can bring it up when you call to schedule it.

162

@153 BiDanFan
I agree some people use them based on perspective, like "I'm assertive, you're pushy, they're a manipulative asshole."

In most cases, I think it's a matter of timing and tone. Dealbreakers should be shared very early in the dating process. I usually handle it around the 4th date.

People can change or come to new realizations over time. In that case, they should bring new dealbreakers up as soon as possible.

There's a huge difference between saying, "I am into cuckolding. I want my partner to be free to have sex with or relationships with other men, while I am faithful to you. I also enjoy humiliation, but would be fine with hotwifing or polyamory." vs.

"I need you to fuck men you've just met. You need to tell me how small my cock is and how inadequate I am. I want to lick their cum out of your pussy. If you love me, you will at least try it!"

163

@158 Harriet and @160 BiDanFan
I agree, a lot of people assume women don't enjoy pegging (at least with men, I haven't seen similar comments about women using strap-ons with other women).

Assumptions and stereotypes based on gender are common. Some have a basis in truth, but there's always exceptions.

I agree that Mrs. Cuck (based on the writing) is into the sex but not the humiliation aspect. We don't know whether she specifically negotiated with Mr. Cuck to offload that onto the bull. He might have come up with it on his own after she refused.

I definitely think DACUCK should bring up his objection, offer a couple of possible options (muted phone, recording, by text/email, stop giving after action reports at all).

164

@159 Harriet
I agree that some people are just incompatible. Some can negotiate ethical non-monogamy as a compromise. For some, they can compromise on the fetish/other needs, using roleplay, or if one person isn't really into it but has no major objections.

If a man approached me wanting cuckolding that was expressly limited to casual sex and verbal humiliation, we probably would be incompatible.

I could offer the compromise of roleplay/fantasy humiliation (where it's clear that's not how I feel). I don't enjoy humiliation play, but it isn't a hard limit for me.

Casual sex is a hard limit for me. I would be open to looking for a polyamorous man as a partner, and sharing details of what we do together.

If that wouldn't be sufficient or meet his needs, I would not feel safe or comfortable with him being with me while pursuing cuckolding with someone else.

I don't feel condoms are sufficiently reliable against HSV and HPV. PREP helps against HIV, added to the condoms.

I also don't want my partner to have casual sex with anyone. I would be open to him having a polyamorous woman partner, but not someone he has no emotional connection with.

I am fine with outsourcing kink without genital play with others.

166

Opal @155@161
You're right every time you say this; they don't mix vaccines. So who knows what would happen if they did, and in practice doesn't matter because they don't. (But it's worth remembering what you got a first shot of to make sure.)

As people may know, for both Pfizer and Moderna the first and second doses are identical. (The former's both have a payload of 30 mcg, the later's both have a payload of 100 mcg.) The reason the second shots tend to have greater symptoms thus has nothing to do with any difference from the first, it's that when the immune system sees it /again/, it tends to take is substantially more seriously.

So if they mixed vaccines, it would be like getting a first shot of each, and would waste the crucial second shot affect.

167

Harriet @141, Barbarian is a bit harsh, he sounds intelligent enough and if one re reads the letter, the wife wants to keep having sex with LW1, according to him. Sounds like sheā€™s involved, enjoying herself, four encounters later.
/ Poor Australia, massive fires one summer now massive floods. Shout out to all effected in NSW and Qld and soon to be Victoria and Tasmania.

168

Harriet @158 " Perhaps men wanting to cuck should suppose that they'll need to be extraordinarily sensitive in proposing hotwifing."

I think of cuckolding as a quite advanced level of hotwifing, or even its own kink. So if that were my sentence, I would rewrite it thus: "Men wanting the hotwife kink should be sensitive in proposing it; men wanting the cuckold kink should be extra sensitive in proposing it, and also be extra eager to meet their GGG wife's own sexual preferences, related or unrelated to the cuckolding."

BDF @160 "there are indeed women who are independently into pegging, not just as a way of being GGG. . :D"

I could say the same for pissplay! :D

169

@161 Opalescent: I have my booster scheduled for Saturday, April 10, 2021. I will mention having gotten a Pfizer the first go around on Saturday, March 20, 2021.

170

@169: WA-HOOOOOOOOO!!!!! Griz scores this week's Double Whammy (Lucky @69 + Big Hunsky @100 = @169)!! I am very humbly grateful for the double shot of good fortune--my end of the month phone & internet bill is coming due. Luckily, my promised economic stimulus is supposed to be in my account by then. I will make it to my next VA Disability benefit when the next go-round of rent & bills come due. YAAY!

Dan & fellow SL commenters: Anyone hungry for another double Lucky Numbers prize, the DOuble Hunsky @200 is next up! Tick...tick...tick...

171

Congratulations Grizelda, may you be safe and happy and super good fortune comes your way.

172

Opal @162: "In most cases, I think it's a matter of timing and tone. Dealbreakers should be shared very early in the dating process. I usually handle it around the 4th date." Yes. A dealbreaker is a pre-existing condition. An ultimatum can feel like a bait-and-switch: the person agreed to a price of admission, but now demands change.

Agreed that if one's kink involves the participation of another person or persons, one must be willing to negotiate the details.

Opal @163: "I agree, a lot of people assume women don't enjoy pegging (at least with men, I haven't seen similar comments about women using strap-ons with other women)." Interesting - I wonder why that is? That people would accept that women enjoy using strap-ons on each other, but not using them on men. Perhaps this stems from this idea that sex isn't really sex unless it involves a penis, or reasonable facsimile. Or that all women who like men want them to play the dominant role. Personally, these people have got it backwards. I'm far more turned on by the idea of pegging a man than strapping on with a woman. I guess because where women are concerned, (a) there is no "gender role reversal" involved and (b) if we wanted penis, we'd be with someone who has one.

"He might have come up with it on his own after she refused." Or he specifically wants to be humiliated by the bull; he is (conveniently) less turned on by getting the postmortem from his wife. His response, to me, doesn't say he's settling for being humiliated by the bull, just as her reaction doesn't say she's taking one for the team by banging DACUCK.

A thought re the obvious avenue of seeking poly women for cucking purposes: one drawback to that is that in the poly community reciprocity is highly valued; anything unequal is viewed as unethical. Look at the disapproval shown the one penis policy, where he gets to have sex with anyone he wants and she only gets to have sex with women. Many poly women might struggle with guilt over the inherent inequality of a cucking relationship -- or if not guilt, the judgement of their friends or the fear thereof. There's also Opal @164's very good point that if the cucking must involve casual partners, many poly women would balk. And if it need involve a dressing down by the bull, poly men may be less likely to pay this price of admission than a single guy like DACUCK.

The Cucks could try looking for bi or heteroflexible men to bull. That would then run the risk that the bull would want a threesome. Looks like this may be something specific enough that sex worker could be the way to go.

173

BDF @172
"The Cucks could try looking for bi or heteroflexible men to bull."

I'm curious (and sorry, I've been a bit distracted), is this suggestion to find a bull who isn't unhappy with listening to the husband wank?

174

DACUCK- "Shouldnā€™t it be enough for him to just know Iā€™m fucking her?"
No, other people's pleasure does not have to conform to your wishes. However it might work for him, you can always ask.

You have choices in the moment when you get uncomfortable.. Telling him you hear him wanking, telling him to stop wanking, hanging up on him.. I'm guessing you haven't done this because you don't want to risk losing your married fuckbuddy. Even though this has maybe permanently ruined your friendship by sexualizing it, since you don't like hanging out with him anymore. It sounds like what you are really interested in is polyamory, to keep fucking his wife indefinitely without marrying her, and if that's how you wish this would evolve, it's better to be honest with the couple imo. They probably don't want polyamory, but maybe it could work, especially if you are comfortable recording sexy messages for the husband.. you never know until you try. It's tough that you don't seem comfortable talking about this with anyone but the wife, is there someone else you could open up to about the situation, or hire a therapist to hash this out with? It's time to ask yourself what you really want, how important are your friendships, do you want to date someone or just fuck sometimes, do you want to try dating poly? Because another aspect is that most non poly women will also want you to stop fucking the wife before they consent to much dating or sex. I'd generally recommend honesty about what you like and dislike, and pursuing your deepest desires while being very considerate of anyone else you involve.

BANAL - What does he want with you the most, monogamy or a somewhat open relationship or polyamory? Did he ever initiate? Have you told him how you feel, what sort of new sex you want to try, or how you'd like him to initiate? If you asked him for a massage that leads to sex, would that count as him initiating? What happens if you have less sex than he prefers, if you don't initiate for a week or two, does he start to angle for sex or does his spark seem gone? How does he say he feels about your sex life? What exactly do you want, and can you live with it if he doesn't want to change sex and you're stuck with the status quo? Do you want monogamy or a somewhat open relationship or polyamory with him? You'll have to discuss and decide what sort of future y'all want together before you can feel confident committing to that shared vision in marriage.

175

Curious @173, yes, this is going back to the first letter (I know, right? Still on topic six days in?) and suggesting that a non-straight guy might be into both fucking the wife and having humiliating phone sex with the husband. Rather than seeing the latter as an unpalatable price of admission for the former, as DACUCK does.

Typing this out, I'm wondering if Mr Cuck intends or desires to make the bull uncomfortable by wanking. It's my understanding that men who non-consensually wank at or expose themselves to women do so partly for the sense of power, of making them look at something they don't want to see. Perhaps I'm overthinking, but there may be an element of that here? They've chosen a straight bull who they know wouldn't want to hear a man masturbate, and intend for him to also feel humiliated by the experience? Hmm.

176

For me, personally, where I would balk at cuckolding is largely the humiliation aspect. Even knowing that it may be pleasing my partner or be exactly what he wants, I would have an extremely hard time sexually humiliating my partner without feeling genuinely gross about it. It would be hard to feel sexual or turned on, quite the opposite. And the thought of taking a situation that is so loaded with potentials to backfire, I would be wary of helping my partner realize this sexual fantasy IRL. It doesn't sound like it's been an issue whatsoever for the couple in Letter 1, but I would be deeply worried that trying to cuckold in real life would backfire and have too many unforeseen ramifications in the primary relationship.

177

Basically my thoughts on cuckolding are similar to DACUCK's initial "it's a trap!" interpretation. As a cis het woman, the proposition would initially register as a set-up, too. (Maybe that's just me, and obviously it is a very taboo-laden kink)

178

@160. Bi. I don't think anyone, more or less, can get all the sex they want. It's something people say, usually with some grudge or animus, when they don't feel desirable and aren't getting, perhaps, much sex at all. Men very often say that attractive women could call in sex at a finger-click, or with minimal effort; and women who want an integral relationship feel the only sex that's available is shallow, transactional and not something that could satisfy them at a deep level. But let's not make this about gender. If someone is conventionally attractive, they are likely to want something substantial and emotionally invested--which is harder to find; and anyone lower down the dickonomics scale will probably be reconciled to making do with less, but will find this less (whatever it is) harder to source.

This week's discussion has half-persuaded me that there are very many het guys who want to cuck, and potentially many het women who want to be-a-cuckoldress but fewer who want to cuck or cuck-as-hotwives. It's evidently not the case that hotwives can fuck who they want. It's of the essence of the kink that the couple date the bull, and that the cuck retains a veto over his partner's choice of fuck. Psychologically I find cucks easier to identify with than hotwives asked, or invited, to play away, or taking the lead in playing away, so long as the part of the kink that involves humiliating their partner can be negotiated to the degree that (if desired) it's minimal and not uncomfortable for them. But we are getting to the point where remarks are of the 'but that's just me'-kind.

179

@167. Lava. He's a bit of a lunk--? He doesn't ask why his friend and his wife have chosen him. I can believe that they are characteristically thoughtful people, and he's a bit thoughtless.

@163. Opalescent. We just don't know how Friend and Mrs Friend discuss her sex with the lw. That it's between them is an essential part of the kink. Whether it's implicit and hangs it the air; whether she gives him a blow-by-blow lowdown;, whether the scene is for her to pretend nothing has happened, or to tantalise him--we just don't know. One suggestion has been that she's not happy humiliating him, and has agreed to hotwife so long as the humiliating and Domming is outsourced to the lw. It's not inconceivable. But it's not a slamdunk, and doesn't actually strike me as all that likely; I'd think the people assuming this are ones who cannot see any erotic gratification at all in the humiliation side of cucking.

@176. Fantastic. What the thread hasn't had (apologies if I'm wrong) is anyone saying 'I can see how the hotwife getting fucked by the bull brings her closer to her partner' (or even 'is a sexy experience which is, in part, between her and her partner'). (No hotwife has said this, and no one trying to get their head inside the kink has been able readily to imagine this). This suggests to me that very few of the people commenting are natural cuckoldresses....

180

Harriet @178
"It's evidently not the case that hotwives can fuck who they want. It's of the essence of the kink that the couple date the bull, and that the cuck retains a veto over his partner's choice of fuck."

That's how it works in some cases, but it's not "the essence of the kink." The essence of the cuckold kink is that the husband gets excited thinking he's not enough for his wife.

I can tell you that many cucks enjoy thinking of their wife as free to fuck anyone she likes, as often as she likes, while they get no say. I don't know which type is more common (the controlling cuck or the submissive cuck), but I know if the husband and wife aren't compatible in this regard then it won't last.

181

Youā€™re funny Harriet @179. ā€œ I can believe that they are characteristically thoughtful peopleā€.. you meaning men here or Australian men!? The man chose him because his wife was very attracted to the LW. Sheā€™s beautiful and a lovely person, so he was in like Flynn.

182

BDF @175
Thank you very much for confirming my understanding. And for the interesting speculation that humiliating the bull might even be a feature (not a bug) for the husband.

As interesting as it's been, the speculation in the thread got /me/ reflecting upon how often I am frustrated that we can't have interaction with the LW to better help them.

Most frustrating to me is that the LW doesn't address how much it's worth to him to keep fucking his friend's "incredibly hot" wife. Does he not even want to risk asking for an alternative (as I suggested @2). If he asks and learns no alternative is acceptable to the couple, will he prioritize fucking her over his discomfort with the calls and the impact upon the friendship?

I usually wish not for an advice column, but an advice dialog.

183

@171 LavaGirl: Many thanks. And I hope all is well your way, too, and that Australia is spared from nasty wildfires this year. Did I hear correctly, that you had mentioned in a previous comment Australia and New Zealand suffered from some terrible tornadoes and flooding? You and your family are in my thoughts and prayers. :)

Hugs, positrons, and VW beeps to all. :)

184

Mrs Fox @176, humiliation is an interesting thing. It may turn out to be in the eye of the beholder. I had a partner who over the course of a 4.5 year FWB-ship expanded my horizons from my own kink, gender fuck, to enjoy other adjacent kinks for their own sake once I experienced how much they turned him on. One day we had a date, and I asked him to shave his body hair and wear panties under his work clothes, since this would tick my gender fuck boxes. Afterwards he told me he found my "ordering" him to do these things humiliating and a major turn on, and the erection he got while describing this was proof of this. Humiliating him wasn't my intention, but once I saw the effects I realised a little humiliation was an easy and fun way to drive him wild. A cuck-wife may just enjoy describing sex she has, which her cuck finds humiliating but she just experiences as dirty talk. Just two cents from the department of kinksters can be made, not just born.

Mrs Fox @177, I would be wary too, my fear being that he would encourage this then slut-shame or accuse me of cheating afterwards. It would have to be a solid relationship and start out with role play, ie recounting stories of past lovers or current crushes, especially if this were new to him.

Harriet @178, I wasn't alleging anyone -can- get all the sex they want. I was comparing some men's perception that women can get all the sex they want to a cuck's perception that his partner will be glad to have casual sex with a bunch of men, and stating that both are inaccurate.

I would not think that there are very many men who want a relationship that is open only to their partners. That even without the humiliation, hotwifing is a niche kink. I would think there were very many swingers, who enjoy watching or hearing about their wives having sex with other men while they themselves enjoy other women. However, this link suggests I may be wrong: https://www.mindbodygreen.com/0-28594/everything-you-need-to-know-about-this-incredibly-common-male-fetish.html


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