Savage Love Apr 20, 2021 at 3:40 pm

Numb and Numbered




'Patriotism is when love of your own people comes firdt; nationalism, when hate for people other than your own comes firked' (Charles de Gaulle)


To the firdt letter writer, firkt I'd suggest a male sex worker as an option. Secnod, maybe try a gay sex club - there is a lot of casual hand jobs, blow jobs, no need for anal. Thrid, a dating app and be open about a FWBs maybe and your relationship status. Good luck!


curious2 @1, congrats. But, I think mine, which is actually an answer to LW rather than a generic post!, should get an honorary firdt! And I'm really thinking you might be that AI we talked about in last week's comments. :)


Nicely done, both delta35 and curious2.
I'll go froth now.


I like Dan's answer to DTFOMBNB, particularly part 2. IJWTS that my suspicion is that this is a temporary reaction to the breakup, not a permanent change.

While I support asexuality, I also think someone contemplating it should absolutely try therapy just in case (ditto the right to suicide, BTW). Oh, and as regards asexuality, I'm curious, by chance did you start any psychiatric meds since the breakup? (Because of course asexuality can also be a side effect of such meds, so I think one always should ask when giving advice.)

delta35, congrats on the secnod. Had you not composed an answer, you might have been firdt. (Look how long it took me to compose an answer.) But as I understand the rules, I was firdt. If I can remain firdt and you can only be an 'honorary' firdt, you are very welcome to that. But I've got a record streak going here.

I must say I'm very impressed, this was a /very/ hotly contested firdt!


Has DTFOMBNB considered getting a dog?


Re WANNABI, whom I nominate for the signoff hall of fame, what about asking his wife's help in vetting guys? Women have a lot more experience smelling men's bullshit on dating sites than WANNABI will have. And as a woman who seems anything but disgusted by bi men, she may find it a fun way to participate in your new adventures. Good luck, WANNABI!


I think Dan nailed it in his last sentence to DTFOMBNB. The lw doesn't say how long ago all this happened, but if the breakup was recent, this compartmentalizing seems like a self-care attempt. I would assume it will resolve at some point; either the lw will meet someone he clicks with sexually so much that he wants to keep seeing him--at least for sex--or he'll find himself sexually attracted to someone he cares about more domestically, and the relationship will change its nature.

I'm going to assume that this breakup happened within the past year or two (and perhaps much more recently), which leads me to say, be kind to yourself, DTFOMBNB. You've gone through a dramatic breakup and presumably, you lost access to a child you were raising and possibly love, when your ex moved to that drier climate with his new bf. You lost a home, a partner, a child, a social role, and a feeling of security. Your concerns were dismissed and later proven to be legitimate. That all sucks and it's no wonder you don't want to have a sexual/romantic relationship right now.

If the breakup occurred before COVID, I don't know how much time you had to play around, but that only means that the natural rebound fuckfest may have been postponed or at least happened only occasionally. If, on the other hand, the breakup happened 3-4 years ago, I am guessing that you've already discovered that it's much easier to get quasi-anonymous sex on a one-to-two-time basis than it is to find a romantic, long-haul partner who doesn't want or expect to have sex with you, but doesn't mind that you're having a series of one-night stands or trips to the bathhouse.

But mostly, I wanted to address DTFOMBNB's question about whether or not he's "nuts or broken." I think he knows he's neither nuts nor broken (I mean, he may well be either or both of those things, but that's hard to decide based on his post-breakup reaction).
DTFOMBNB, it's called "playing the field," and that's fine, but it's hard to do while you're partnered. Be patient with yourself and see how things have shaken out two years from now.


I too think DTFOMBNB's new attitude towards potential partners is temporary, due to having the rug pulled out from under him so spectacularly. He's lonely; he's horny; but the last time he gave his heart and his dick to the same person look what happened. He doesn't trust himself to choose a mate who won't betray him, so he wants to get rid of lovers immediately, before he gets attached. Most people would call this "not ready to date again." I was serious when I suggested getting a dog. Living alone after being deserted by a partner and a kid must be hard. A dog is the ideal companion: affectionate, loyal, and won't complain when DTFMNBNB brings men home. In time he may be ready to share his heart with another human, but a pet can help keep him feeling safe and loved until that happens.


Great advice so far by all involved, I'll just add that WANNABI can also post something along the line of, "Inexperienced married bi man is looking for another guy in a similar situation for occasional mutual explorations. Safe practices a must."


To me it sounds like bitterness ("You can have affection or sex but not both because nobody deserves everything") or fear of putting all his eggs in one basket ("this way I'll be safeif this explodes because I'm getting some of my needs met elsewhere").


Mx Wanna - Yes, that sounds very practical.


I'll agree with Mr Savage that some gay biphobia is gallingly hypocritical, but with the caveat that one has to specify what one is counting as biphobia. LW1 seems a decent sort, but checking his own attitudes to make sure he doesn't enter the SS arena with demeaning views of gays (the existence of which Mr Savage conveniently omits) cannot hurt. I have nothing to say in disagreement about parts 2, 3 or 5 of A1, and about part 4 will say only that in my specialty there may be more performers than receivers though Mr Savage's view of general versatility seems accurate.


As for A2 (and I feel strongly for LW2, though I have never been in anything closely comparable by way of situation), yes, a homoromantic asexual would seem high on the list of choices.

Given how we have seen substantial quantities of evidence of DS cuckolds' being anywhere from problematic to downright creepy to worse, I would be averse to making a blanket statement of approval of SS cuckolds, but that's my main point of difference with A2. I'll recuse myself on the question of therapy. As my relationship with therapy has always been of an adverse character, I trust most of the assembled company will accept that.


curious2 @5 thanks for the honorary!


@1 curious2 & @2 delta35: WA-HOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!! I am placing you both as FIRDT (firkt) and SECNOD in a tie for this week's Savage Love comment thread leadership. Bask in your equally shared froth-worthy glow. :)

@14 delta35: Major congrats! I am actually also crowning you FIRDT as well as SECNOD this week (see above). You put up a good fight, you deserve a share in the FIRDT riches.:)


Right. I might need to get back to you both, not being a gay or bi man, most would be guess work only.
Sorry LW2, he treated you like that, and good on you for not wanting to punch his lights out, which I must confess, was what I thought appropriate after reading how he treated you.


Symbolically, yes, LW2, because violence never solved anything. And the friend, a head side swipe for him. Again, symbolically.


CMD @10, just because WANNABI is inexperienced doesn't mean his partners should be as well. He should be up front about his lack of experience, but someone in the same boat may just lead to mutual fumbling. An experienced partner can guide him and observe the campsite rule. The polyamorous community may be a good place to look for men who share and are therefore sympathetic to his OS-marital status, and bonus, poly folk are more meticulous about condom use. He should check out OKCupid in addition to Grindr.


Is DTFOMBNB nuts? Is he broken? No. Is he hurt, is he damaged? Yes, and that's valid. DTFOMBNB, it's okay to not be okay (right now). It's also okay to acknowledge that you're not (currently) in good working order to date, and to take care of yourself. Therapy or time to heal your wounds.


Ms Fan @18 - Well spotted; someone also DS-partnered but with more experience could be just the ticket.


What 'Down to Marry' wants is not so unusual; and it's not evidence of nuttiness or brokenness. He wants a companionate Platonic nesting partnership, then casual sex on the side. This is a thing--his urge is identifiable--and I think he should go out and look for it.

My question with his letter would be, what does he want to hear from Dan? Does he only want encouragement in his plan to set up a Platonic 'marriage', or does he want to be told that he will heal, that he will one day come to want and believe in the possibility of a sex life with a life-partner again? Perhaps, at some level, he is looking for sympathy--which he would appear abundantly to deserve? It must mean something that he led with the story, with his first paragraph, about he was heartbroken by his partner's 'Seattle-to-Phoenix' flit ('Seattle' and 'Phoenix' are suggestions introduced only to fill in the blanks). He may have told us the story to leave open the possibility that his new desires are a reflex in response to being so badly hurt--and so might change as he heals ... or he may have told the story to establish the seriousness of what he now wants. Well--I think Dan's response is exemplary; and I would say he should go out and look for his companionate partner.

WANNABI stands on the verge of wonderful experiences that will expand his mind and give legs to his marriage. The advice about intermittent PrEP was good, though he should feel confident about insisting on condom use if he wants. I thought that it might turn out that his occasional sex partner was also a het-married man (he may of course have more than one).

Both these letters, in a way, were cheering and hopeful, with writers setting out in search of new and integrally fulfilling experiences.


@12. venn. WANNABI does not seem to have been around any explicitly gay culture for much or maybe all of his marriage, so any 'demeaning' views of gays (should he have them) would seem unlikely to derive from observation. Your cryptic references to your specialty (which you never reveal) only arouse curiosity as to what it is.

@8. Nocute & @9. Bi. You may well be right that his instinct to compartmentalise will naturally lapse, but there's still some part of me that wary's of trying to normalise an unusual or non-standard or deviant impulse.


Harriet @22, I thought Venn's hints were reasonably easy to guess.
Re DTF, don't you mean "is wary of trying to pathologise an unusual or non-standard or deviant impulse"? Saying, "Yes, this is valid, go out and seek what you are looking for" is normalising DTF's impulse. Saying, "This seems not inherent to who you are but tied to a recent traumatic experience" urges him to reconsider his motives. If he hadn't tied his interest in duality to a recent breakup, if he had reported feeling this way for most or all of his adult life, I would join you and Dan in reassuring him there were asexual men out there who'd love a companionate relationship and grant DTF a hall pass -- not many, but some. But he didn't say that. I'm with Nocute -- if he still feels this way in two years, he should start pursuing his non-standard interest. In the meantime, he should focus on himself and building a happy single life.


Dan wrote "straight biphobia is less gallingly hypocritical". I don't get it. Isn't gay biphobia /exactly the same/ as straight biphobia?


Griz @15 thx!

fubar @24 I find gay biphobia more hypocritical, but straight biphobia is stronger - as well as a % more prevalent - straight people’s biphobia is more likely to get mixed up with non-monogamy bias too (or assumed non-monogamy)


BiDanFan @7: I wondered why WANNABI didn't mention his wife's potential involvement in the SS proceedings, and why Dan didn't suggest it.

LW wrote that they've "talked about opening things up in the future," which presumably applies to the wife too. An MMF sounds like a win/win/win.


@23. Bi. I am going to have to remain in the dark about venn's proclivities (if we are talking about the same thing, the thing with more tops than bottoms. Not true of PIA, not true of pissplay, not really apt for suckoffs, etc., and none of those are really 'specialties' in the sense I think venn uses the term).

By 'normalise' I meant 'try to straighten it out', try to say to the lw that what he wants, deeps down, is more standard than the set-up he has in mind. (What I meant was what you thought I meant). I don't think we should seek to 'invalidate his desires without invalidating his feelings', as it were. That could be insensitive. I do not know whether you and nocute are right, and that his desire to have sex only with non-life-partners will wear off in time (it seems more plausible to me than not). I still like Dan's advice--go out and look for an ace life-partner. I also like yours: practise self-care and play the field for sex. For example, if he finds an ace partner who's a candidate for nesting, then experiences a resumption of hope, and wants to have sex with the person with whom he's made a home, things are going to work out badly for the ace/non-ace couple. But surely 'Down to Marry' will have considered this?


Fubar @24, no, because straight people have never been marginalised or oppressed or attacked for their sexual orientation. Gay people have, therefore it's hypocritical for them to turn around and do it to someone else. As my mother used to say, they should know better.

Fubar @26, not everyone is into group sex. And it's possible that WANNABI wants his first forays into the world of MM sex to be purely MM. WANNABI says "I'd like to casually hook up with a guy once in a while," not "we'd like to casually hook up with a guy once in a while." An MMF sounds like a win to me too -- and may happen if the FWB he finds also happens to be bi and mutually attracted to Mrs WANNABI -- but I also think we should respect WANNABI's desire to explore on his own. I was talking compersion, not package deals.

Harriet @27, one point is what if he follows his current instincts, finds an asexual nesting partner and keeps fucking other men, then gets over his heartbreak and finds he wants to keep fucking one of these other men, that he is actually capable of catching feelings for a lover? Or develops sexual desires for his ace cohabitant? He'd be in a pickle of his own making, so it makes sense for him to analyse this further and be certain, before he becomes the one breaking the hearts.


"Dan wrote "straight biphobia is less gallingly hypocritical". I don't get it. Isn't gay biphobia /exactly the same/ as straight biphobia?"

In a way, yes.

But I think that one who is subjected to discrimination has missed an opportunity to learn not to discriminate against others. It is in that sense that I read Dan's point.

For example, I might be particularly disappointed in a black person who is bigoted against gay people, because that black person has had the opportunity to learn/grow from bigotry against themself. (Sportlandia and his misogyny, for example.)

OTOH, there are strong currents which flow against them learning. Being discriminated against is such a great challenge in itself, that other kinds of growth challenges might be a lot to ask. For example, someone in a minority group that a world of bigotry has made to feel small, might be greatly tempted to be bigoted towards another minority group to have that have group to belittle so they can feel bigger than someone /in/comparison/.


I'm trying to not sound bitter, but one thing that often irks me is when people blithely recommend someone acquire a partner who's X, Y, or Z, and then supplement that person with another partner who's A, B, or C. Particularly when some of those attributes are somewhat rare.

I have been single for the past 5 years*, not by choice, but because, while I make friends quite easily and have a large circle of acquaintances, I find it much harder to find someone with whom I click romantically/sexually/partnership-wise--and I'm not looking for a specialized trait, like asexuality-coupled-with-polyamory.

I don't know whether other people simply have more opportunities than I do, and I know I'm handicapped by my age (50s) and body type (overweight, though not morbidly obese), but the thought that I could easily find a partner and then just as easily find a second partner (and that neither of these two people mind that they're only fulfilling a partial need, or that I would be happy to assign different roles/tasks to different partners) is mind-bogglingly daunting to me.

Indeed, I often read these suggestions and feel depressed and inadequate. Is it really that easy for people to just find someone with a set of characteristics that seem ordered off an a la carte menu?

*I put all attempts at dating into hibernation during COVID, but now that I and so many others have been vaccinated, I'm trying to cautiously venture out again.


fubar @24 the especially hypocritical part of gay biphobia is out LG folx ostensibly are accepting of variations in sexuality, certainly mainstream LGBTQIA+ organizations advocate inclusivity.


nocute @30 I do think people overestimate ease of finding a partner who is compatible not just sexually but in all the also important ways for someone living together long term (how you handle money, conflict, time). And they use prism of 20-something energy levels - and maybe 20 somethings with more disposable income (roommates splitting costs vs all on your own rent/mortgage).


Could someone please tell me what Dan means by "most of the men I've encountered the shit out of"?


Wayne @33: "Most of the men I've had sex with."


All the advice for WANNABI sounds helpful, and I have nothing to add to it. But I wonder if he is not just "anxious about gay hookup culture," but about hookup culture in general. If he's a long-married person in his 40s, he likely hasn't dated much in the digital era, and perhaps it is that gap in experience that is concerning him as much as the bisexuality part? I don't know, but it seems many of the questions he has could as easily be asked by people new to hooking up with opposite-sex people.

@30 and 32: I wonder too if these assumptions about the ease of finding partners stems from the proliferation of online dating and apps that give some the perception that dialing up the right fit is as easy as logging on to the internet.

Man I sound old.


Ms Cute - Well, I've always viewed having a really tiny dating pool to be an advantage. Sorry things are difficult for you.


Mr Bar - As mentioned, the untrue and harmful beliefs held and perpetrated against the B by those from the S are not similar to anything that has been used to oppress them, which does make it reasonable to call it gallingly hypocritical when it comes from the L or the G. I'll disagree with Mr Savage on one point, though - the people who don't get the press are the bi men with anti-gay attitudes. That seems to be perceived to be punching up.


@37: If you wanted to write a letter to me about that I'd be happy to drop it into next week's column.

@34: Correct.


Skr Curious - I think I view it more the other way around in your concluding paragraph. I would usually not expect Marginalized Group A to go out of its way to assist Marginalized Group B as there are usually too many home concerns. It makes me think of the White Queen from Alice and Jam Every Other Day.


LW1; jumping the gun a bit, by the sound of it, if you and your wonderful wife are just talking about opening the relationship. Guess you must have been a Boy Scout, hey, Be Prepared.
Long as you don’t bring pressure to bare on your wife, because opening the marriage isn’t a done deal.
Now I’ll go read and enjoy Dan’s answer.


Nocute @30: You don't sound bitter, and it's a very good point. I too have noticed with the advent of dating apps, people get the attitude that you can just go on the internet and order up a human being with attributes that match your desires, like you'd order anything else online. It is a dismissive attitude. I don't think Dan has implied that filling a rare or specific set of requirements would be easy for any LW, and I also think he's somewhat bound by the alternative being advising someone "give up, you'll never find what you want," which seems defeatist. "Just find a partner/more than one partner" is easier said than done, but most advice is -- take the classic DTMFA. So obvious when it's someone else's MF, so difficult when it's yours.


M?? Harriet - Will you give LW1 double his money back if the experience doesn't live up to its billing?

He may actually have a grand time, especially at first. I have observed that men who enter the MM arena with a current or recent DS partner frequently do seem to outperform their objective level of attractiveness. Johnny Come Out Lately can ride a wave of popularity. This can contribute to his thinking untrue and unkind things about gays - that we should be fighting with each other to service him, that we all envy him for being able to do women, that his abusing us with foul slurs is every gay's wildest dream, etc. Now LW1 does seem, as I wrote earlier, a decent person, but, especially if he encounters many of the sort of gays who like to perpetrate the idea that We're All Like That, popularity could go to his head. Recall the episode of the Brady Bunch in which Marcia was surprised and overawed to be cast as Juliet and in a week's time wanted to rewrite Shakespeare.

Mr Savage's "biphiles" should perhaps be divided out. There are gays who, for one reason or another, find bi men make better lovers (my own experience is that the ones I encountered were slightly below average at MM but I am prepared to believe they could be superiour at MF). Then there are both bi chasers and straight chasers, the former of whom I can give FTWL as they tend not to do harm but the latter of whom have to get LMB because their politics are almost always dreadful. I would have used "biphile" only for someone for whom bi men would be his type or for whom it would be a moderate plus, not for the chasers.


Item 1; not so sure re Dan’s answer here, LW1. Why not be upfront on your dating profile, that 1) you are a bi man. 2) you are happily married to a woman. Weed out the bi phones, whatever cloak they wrapped in. Men are people, and many of these men as people are good and kind and ready for the truth. So give them yours.
I can’t believe all gay men need to be bottle fed.
If you’re only thinking once or twice a year, LW1, screen out the drongos early on, and make the encounters, meaningful ones.


And it’s not a competition, Dan. It’s in the name, straight community, some of whom, like the platinum gays, are purists.


Mr. venn
Please accept Dan's invitation! Because I know that I can only learn from you elaborating about
"the bi men with anti-gay attitudes" (Mr. venn@37)
because I don't already (and I apologize that I don't) understand that at all.

Mr. venn@39
"I would usually not expect Marginalized Group A to go out of its way to assist Marginalized Group B as there are usually too many home concerns."

I agree that is a lot to ask for that reason. But it is not to much to ask that Marginalized Group A not /participate/ in marginalizing Group B. (Though I understand if they're not up to that growth challenge, as I wrote in whatever comment of mine you're responding to.) In other words, while not having the time to actively assist, they could without expending time not be bigoted themselves.


@45, excellent advice. As a single by choice sex-positive gay man of a certain age, I can attest to the fact that there are MANY MANY gay men who would love to have a legitimate straight man as a sex buddy. Especially one who isn't sleeping around and who will go away after the deed is done. In fact, he may find his dance card full to overflowing.


A bi man is challenging for a woman in a Patriarchal society, in terms of her social training, though yes it’s changing, thankfully, with younger women. We compete with each other, not with men.
So why do men have issue, unless it’s plain bigotry. And who needs people like that in one’s bed, LW1?


I should qualify my use of the word ‘compete’, because it’s clumsy, to explain my meaning. Women know the rules if other women on the sexual scenes, if it’s a man rules are hazy and anyway the man is more interesting more sexually adventurous more erotic. After all, he holds the phallus, too.


curious2 @47 "bi men with anti-gay attitudes" - I've met some. They don't usually identify as bi. Heteromantic / have sex with men or just "straight" - toxic masculinity style. Tons of internalized biphobia/homophobia in my judgment.


@42 vennominon: What does FTWL stand for? I'm not familiar with it and Google was unhelpful. And the most common meaning for LMB is "lick my balls", but I'm not sure that applies here.


@52: electriophile, FTWL is an abbreviated version of FTWLTSOTTITSOTTL. It's a phrase rthar appears in the novel, "The Prime of Miss Jean Brodie," and it stands for "for those who like that sort of thing, that is the sort of thing they like."

As you can see, the phrase sounds sort of diplomatic, but it's sort of dismissive, too.


@52: LMB is, so far as I can tell, a vennominon original. It stands for "laissez-moi barf," somewhat akin to "gag me with a spoon."


Oh, it is google-able. It means:

"Fuck The What Larry""

Though naturally that's not what /Mr. venn/ means by it.

I forget Mr. venn's meaning for it, because IIRC I don't like either meaning enough to memorize it, so I need a venn-FAQ.


Wannabi, dating is hard because you meet a lot of people who will dismiss you for arbitrary reasons.. they don't want what you want, or not with you. It's important to learn not to take arbitrary human differences personally. But it's even tougher to meet someone ethically shady, who isn't honest or consistent about what they want, or who inconsistently seems to care about what you want. He may remove his condom or try to have sex without a condom, even after you say it's important to you, or lie about his sexual activity or sti status, or start stalking you or suddenly ghost you. A married man or friend may be safer than a still-single stranger, unless he shows a history of having good and some longer relationships. It might even be helpful to talk to your wife about how she handles dating guys. I'd say be very clear about what you want and prepared to quickly free yourself if you get a bad surprise anyway, and hopefully you will find some good surprises too. Point is, hope for the best but expect lies and danger and that you'll need to do a lot of rejecting for your own safety even if they are cute, so if you get lucky then it's a pleasant surprise.

Dtfombnb, I don't understand why romance without sex is so confusing and sex without romance is so common. Fwb and no romance is common but friends with romance and no sex, how does that work, cuddly fwb but no sex? Emotional closeness sounds like friendship, but cuddling sounds physically intimate like sex. Do you want a cuddly best friend and separate sex partners? If that would scratch your itch, maybe spend more time looking for friends than an asexual romance with sex on the side.. Maybe a solo poly best friend who cuddles would fit the bill..

It's unclear if you've fallen in love with someone while developing a revulsion to sex with him and he broke it off because he wanted a sex partner, or if you just quickly develop an aversion to sex with every partner now. I'm just not sure if you've actually been in love and simultaneously sexually averse to them, or if you are averse to love so you shy away from continuing to have sex and releasing oxytocin with any one person. If it's the former, then it just depends if you want to attract someone similar who has sex with others but not you, like a cuddly best friend, or a celibate asexual or kinky guy, for where you look and how you phrase your search.. And if you are averse to feeling romantically attached, what's wrong with building a group of good friends, some of whom you can cuddle too, and waiting until you feel cuddly towards one of your sex partners to discuss romance and possibly exclusivity?


Nocute @30: Interesting! I assume such advice is meant as a way to indicate that meeting a person who possesses characteristics A /and/ B is far harder than meeting some people with characteristic A and others with characteristic B; cue the standard Venn diagram image. For instance, I am completely besotted with my partner, but he's laconic. Rather than pester him about that endlessly, force him to indulge in an activity he dislikes, or trade him in and continue the search for a man I can love, understand, fuck, /and/ chitty-chat to, I outsource my desire to blather to other friends who enjoy the same.

Of course, if you are expecting a sexual relationship with both/all people in your theoretical set, that does amount to further restrictions, because you're adding "willing to be sexually nonexclusive" into your set of qualities, thus reducing the available sets again (those pesky "and" statements really narrow things down). But I still think it's an overall good attitude to base advice on, namely, that you can't always expect to get everything you want from one person. Either be willing to "settle," or try to spread the things you need around a bit.


Skr Curious - Yes; something pinnable would be most useful.

When I was socially active it was mostly Hearts-Not-Parts stuff from people who thought their being bi saved them from all the stereotypes that they believed about us. Fortunately it was a minority.

If I don't post in the near future, it's probably connected to my being supposed to be vaccinated tomorrow. I am dreading showing up for the appointment. I hated having to sign up to be part of whatever system is managing these vaccinations, and think that there is less than a 50% chance the vaccination will proceed as scheduled. They'll probably turn me away for being uninsured if they don't arrest me for it (I bear nobody among the assembled company any grudge for enjoying the image of my being hauled off to prison) or they'll find that I've been some sort of super carrier for months and hospitalize me by force, or something dreadful. I'm sure it sounds silly, but I have always disliked and mistrusted administrative bodies, usually for good reason.


Mr. venn@58
I wish my jabs had activated my immune system enough to keep me from commenting. Alas, the second one only made the short nap the pandemic already put me in the habit of noticeably deeper.

I don't think they exclude the uninsured, or test for anything. They asked me a couple questions (IIRC had I been sick or had another vaccination recently), that was it.

Those lucky enough to have a robust immune response are usually just very tired. The very lucky ones might get chills. The luckiest of all get a fever for a day. (In the Pfizer trials, I read that a very rare guy got a 104F fever so he shook so hard he cracked a tooth.)


Delta35 @25, BiDanFan @28, curious2 @29:

My reaction was based on my assumption that biphobia is rooted in "I won't be enough", and figured it applied equally to both camps.

BiDanFan: Your mother sounds wise.


Applause for Curious @1 and Delta @2 for a hotly contested, highly classy firdt battle! Nicely done, both of you. (But seriously, does Curious live in some magical time zone that publishes the SL letter 10 minutes before the rest of ours?!) Also, Curious @5, nice catch about possible medication-related libido dampening re: DTFOMBNB.

Nocute @8 FTW with advice to DTFOMBNB. I love that you sensitively pointed out the many relationships and social roles this man lost in one fell swoop, with the extra hurt of betrayal on top. I wish DTFOMBNB had said how long ago this happened. Frankly I think sex would be one of the last things on my mind after going through something like this. But I feel for his (current) desire to compartmentalize affection and sex into separate silos. Agreed with any and all above who suggested therapy. Somewhat agree with BDF about getting a dog (as long as he's in a frame of mind to commit to the long-haul game of having a dog and not just using it as an emotional crutch that he's going to kick to the curb the second it becomes inconvenient or as soon as he's able to replace it with a boyfriend).

I'm kind of surprised that Dan didn't suggest a sex worker to meet either set of needs, either for NSA sex or NSA cuddling. Seems easier than trying to find an ace guy to start a relationship with (especially if the LW's current disinterest in partnered sex [that is likely due to the recent trauma of this huge betrayal, and not a lifestyle he wants to pursue long term]). Someone please tell me if I'm too out in left field on this one.


curious2 @29: Many(1) people who are bigoted - against gay people, or women, for example - are that way because of religion.

Where I live, the religious immigrant community tends to vote for the conservative party (who are notoriously anti-immigration, complete dullards when it comes to systemic racism, and can't quite get over marriage equality and reproductive choice) because they share the anti-gay, anti-choice priority, and a belief in one or another magical, invisible sky friend... who happens to be a complete asshole.

When I was a kid, I imagined that religion would die out with my parents' generation. Alas, once again, I was wrong.

(1) 99.98% of them.


Amendment to my comment @61: maybe it wouldn't be * easier * to see a sex worker for the NSA sex or cuddling, but I think it seems a more fair arrangement than it would be to get involved in a relationship with someone who is ace. The LW's (current) asexuality seems too tied up with this awful, betrayal-laden breakup, and I worry about him doing damage to or breaking the heart of someone who identifies as ace, if our LW discovers his libido returning in the future. Again, therapy should be number 1 for DTFOMBNB, not because there's anything "wrong" or "nuts" or "broken" about being ace, but to sort out how much of this changed attitude toward sex is the result of the breakup vs. his genuine sexual orientation.

To ham-fistedly tie in some Bojack Horseman references (seriously, everyone get thee to Netflix and watch it if you haven't already [and you want to be punched in the feels by a talking animal cartoon]): DTFOMBNB could really use the "All About That Ace" app. And was anyone else seriously disappointed that Todd and Emily never worked their way to a companionate ENM relationship wherein Emily was free to screw around with hunky firefighters but they reserved their affections for one another? BiDanFan, ya feel me? The longtime SL reader in me thought they were building up to an ENM arrangement for years and was pretty bitterly disappointed when that didn't happen.


Mr. Venn @37: I'm curious to (no, not curious2) hear why bi men would have anti-gay attitudes. It just makes no sense in my happy, everyone-getting-along, imaginary world. I'll look forward to next week's column.


Ah, dammit, ciods, I had a whole answer written and the internet ate it. Maybe I'll try to recreate it later.

Fantastic_: I think Bojak Horseman may be one of the top 5 tv shows made in the last 10 years.


Mr. Venn @58: Good luck with your jab tomorrow.


WOW--look at all the comments in this week's Savage Love column already! Griz has major catch-up reading to do (the gorgeous sunshine has been a distraction). :)


@58: All the best, venn, with your jab tomorrow! :)

And this week's Lucky @69 Award winner IS...........


Hey Grizelda, how you doing? And your composing subject sounds exciting.
/Great answer Dan to LW2.
I feel you have chosen the frozen way to deal with your pain at how your ex partner and ex friend, treated you, LW2. Grief at your intimacy ending and deep sense of betrayal at how your ex treated you. These feelings need to be processed not go underground.


In my defence I’m old and thought I saw @66 up.


Thanks Tim @ 48, just caught up with your comment.


I will own that dearest Grizelda reached out to me and shared, after our life catch ups, a part of her newly composed piece. This woman is a musical genius, the piece was haunting and Stephen King, needs to hear this.
Sorry Grizelda, talking bout you while you’re in the room. Here is to you, time for a drink to celebrate your fabulousness.


Venn @42, surely there's a third group of gay men who might be interested in WANNABI -- those who don't care whether he is gay or bi, since they're not looking for a relationship, just a FWB?

Tim @48, I also thought that WANNABI's much lower risk factor for STIs would make him an attractive choice.

Phi @56, good point. WANNABI may want to look for men who openly have partners, as a way of avoiding men who have partners but aren't admitting to it. As someone who dates guys, one way of weeding out (some of) the chaff is to make it clear you will not be having sex on the first meeting. The least ethical dudes won't stand for that, and you're well rid of them.

Re DTF, I think the reason romance without sex is uncommon is that the vast majority of humans are sexual creatures. If you have warm fuzzy feelings for someone, and you also have a sex drive, it makes sense that cuddling would awaken those drives. Asexuals would be the exception. A solo poly person with an existing sexual partner might be an option, but speaking as a solo poly person, I would find it difficult to cuddle with someone I was attracted to and not want to take things further. I would find it easier to cuddle with someone I liked as a person but was not attracted to, but does DTF want to be involved with someone who is not attracted to him? A pet seems a much easier solution to the need for physical affection without sex.

Venn @58, congratulations on your vaccine, may your side effects be few.

Fubar @60, the argument wasn't that it's -worse- to be biphobic if you're gay -- biphobia is biphobia; bigotry is bigotry -- but that gay people who are biphobic also have an element of hypocrisy in their attitude that straight people do not. One could state the flip side as straight biphobia is more gallingly ignorant. Gay people should be able to empathise with bisexuals due to their own lived experience, while straight people can only use their moral compass to reach a conclusion that stereotyping people based on sexual orientation is bad.

Fubar @64, one possibility is defensiveness. Bi men may have been turned down by gay men so often they develop a pre-emptive prejudice, in other words, the bias bi men have toward gay men is that gay men aren't open to dating them. (At least this applies in the queer female area, so I wouldn't be surprised if it applies with men too.)

Griz @67, glad you've been enjoying the sunshine! BDF should make a point to do so as well. A sunny weekend is on the horizon!


fantastic_mrs_fox @61 I agree about sex worker referral often being a good option. Some practical issues: to make a living wage, most sex workers necessarily need to charge hourly rates that are, far beyond most people's ability to frequently pay. That sex work is illegal also introduces employment risks for the clients in many fields. Small risks compared to the sex worker's risks, but non-zero as most employers now do an arrest screen before a hire.

curious2 @59 "I wish my jabs had activated my immune system enough to keep me from commenting" you win the thread!

fantastic_mrs_fox @61 on curious2 being in a magical time zone hence usually getting firkt post: we still have not ruled out my hypothesis that curious2 is a newly awakened AI, like in Colossus: The Forbin Project (1970), about to take over the world and enforce peace - starting gently by owning SLOG's firkt.

Pretending to have an immune system, eh, curioius2? Very clever! Send 1,042 bitcoins my way and I will keep your secret and help you! ;)


LavaGirl @69 winner! on aunti grizelda's music - Griz, post your soundcloud links or displayname - long time Savage Love commenters might help you go viral in a good way, maybe Dan can tweet it out - you deserve it as one of the most regular, and nicest, regulars!


@28. Bi. You're concerned he might be dooming himself to numbness--?; it's a pertinent question.

One thing we should bear in mind is the likely stage 'Down to Marry' is at in conceiving of his far-out plan. He has run it past all his close friends and heard just what the typical empathic but level-headed response would be--similar to your and Nocute's response, e.g. 'you say you want that because you're hurting. You think you'll never be able to trust again, but the trust and feeling will come back'. But he hasn't been satisfied with their answer. The stubborn desire for a compartmentalised fuck-cohabit split has persisted. Personally I can't get behind saying in any way, 'what you think you want isn't actually what you want'; I've said it to myself, and have had it said to me at too many different stages of my development. So I think I'd be like Dan in plainly answering the 'how'--how do I set about this, rather than reopening the 'do you actually want to?'. But of course everything you say about proceeding slowly (and that Dan says about proceeding reversibly) is spot-on.


Best of luck to Ms Grizelda in furthering her musical career.
Ms Fan - sure, fewer people will care at the hookup level.
Mr Bar - Enough gays believe the things our haters say about us; it's even more tempting for outsiders to think such things as that we're incapable of real love, etc.
My apologies for coming off as bitter; it just irks to see this so often presented as a unilateral problem. I leave for my vaccine on a more amusing note, thinking of how many young people I have caught out lately who, after establishing that the number of genders is many, still cite that straight people are attracted "exclusively to the OPPOSITE gender".


Regarding biphobia exhibited by gays - As a lesbian, I support bisexuals without qualification. They should be free from discrimination and enjoy the same civil rights every human being is entitled to (I feel the need to add "entitled to", given the precarious state of all civil rights in the new ACB-era)

Having said that, as a lesbian, I am not interested in having a sexual and/or romantic relationship with a bisexual woman.

I'm happy to march with them. I support my lesbian friends who are in relationships with them. And yes, I even have bisexual friends!

My preference not to date them doesn't make me a bigot, and I don't understand the current trend in labeling that particular personal preference as biphobia.

In every demographic study I've seen, there are more bisexual women than lesbians. My refusal to include myself in their prospective dating pool isn't bigotry. They will be fine without me, and as I'm sure BDF will point out, they wouldn't want to date me anyway!


Congrats Lava @69, and agreed that DTFOMBNB needs to take the time to process the many facets of this breakup (and losing his close friend, and the child he's been raising, and the lies/gaslighting...) and not simply "stuff it down the memory hole."

Harriet @76 - you make a fair argument, that in life we can get bombarded with "you don't actually want what you want" messages from friends, family, society (I imagine this is especially the case for gender identity and expression, or a less-common sexual orientation such as asexuality). DTF may indeed be ace, and it took this painful experience to bring it to the surface, but the painful experience is something that needs to be addressed and processed regardless. It's important that the LW doesn't feel "broken" or "nuts" about what he wants, and he seems like he's being levelheaded about his "big ask." But it also sounds like there are trust/intimacy issues at work, as DTF sounds like he's trying to replicate the aspects of being in an LTR that he's used to (notably the cuddling, physical touch aspect [especially in these touch-starved times]) while keeping sex out of the equation. It sounds like sex + intimacy feels unsafe to DTF right now, which I sympathize with enormously. Therapy to suss out what is genuine and what is a trauma response is crucial here, IMO. If it turns out DTF is indeed ace and wants romantic, asexual relationships from here on out, he will do himself and his future partners a huge favor by processing this massive betrayal and huge upheaval of his entire world.

Venn - good luck with your vaccine! And I really value your insights and hope you take Dan up on his offer next week.

Griz - I would love to hear your music! We should have a Zoom SL comment board party (although maybe that would ruin the mystique we've all curated for ourselves, lol)


A brief personal aside: after being "temporarily laid off" for 13 months now, the Fox has two secnod interviews scheduled for this week! Can I get a WAHOOO?!


Thank you for the important point. Much more important than my @29.

In one way I think it meshes with mine. Because I think that often greater embrace of religion, for example in the USA black community, is related to their (sub)culture having been "made to feel small" (me@29).

And there are liberal religious folks who have grown enough to not be bigoted, instead of still holding the bigoted views they were indoctrinated with But I don't know if their numbers are significant; I wouldn't be surprised to hear that childhood indoctrination into bigotry usually isn't overcome.

"magical, invisible sky friend... who happens to be a complete asshole"

An academic-textbook case of 'projection'.

"When I was a kid, I imagined that religion would die out with my parents' generation."

In a documentary on evangelical Christian brainwashing (perhaps "Jesus Camp" from 2006), I vaguely recall that either 3/4 or 2/3 of children in such families turn out like their parents.

But I think that we were just too optimistic as youths about how /fast/ changes would happen. The stats are encouraging in the USA, and //very// encouraging in the UK. I expect in a century or two belief in a "magical, invisible sky friend" will be marginal enough to have little influence on societies.

"I'm curious to (no, not curious2)"

I just want to apologize to everyone for my stupid username. The least I could have done was to capitalize it. Or to pick something that wasn't such a common word. I invite everyone to call me Curious2.

"Shall we play a game?"

""bi men with anti-gay attitudes"...usually identify as bi. Heteromantic / have sex with men or just "straight" - toxic masculinity style. Tons of internalized biphobia/homophobia in my judgment."

Thanks, I think that was my major disconnect. Bi in the sense of reality, not in the sense of self-identification.

Mr. venn@77
"young people I have caught out lately who, after establishing that the number of genders is many, still cite that straight people are attracted "exclusively to the OPPOSITE gender""

Culture and language are often the enemy of change. It would be unwieldy for them to frame 'opposite' as 'gender traditionally envisioned as a binary opposite'.


@33. wayne. I think there's the suggestion that Dan topped these guys.

@30. nocute. I think you are whatever the opposite of demisexual is--that is, someone who wants an emotional connection with your lover, or who is perhaps ideally looking for an emotionally-and-sexually integral relationship. It may be easier just to find a fuck for someone DTF. Your not being 'demi' is surely an important component of how you think about yourself, of your character and sense of self-worth; and is the very opposite of something to be embarrassed by.

Apropos the lw 'Down to Marry', it did cross my mind that a gay man in his 40s might be able to find hookups, but even in ten years' time it could get more difficult.

@42. venn. Why suggest that the experience won't live up to its billing? What a downer. The scenarios you imagine are all fanciful--that the married guy venturing into gay hookups will be wildly popular, or that he'll become prejudiced. My prediction of what will happen, rather, is that he will develop rationally circumscribed relationships with a very small number of fuckbuddies.

My experience is that actually going for what you want (of course in an ethical way) and failing at times and being disappointed and adjusting your expectations and experimenting is SO much better than thinking of your limitless sexual potential or hoarding, sitting on, your sexual imagination. Finally WANNABI is going for it. This is a moment for hope and self-affirmation.

@78. JibeHo. Some might want to date you!


Good luck and Wahooo to you, Fantastic!

Good luck with the jab, Mr. Ven. I do hope you'll take Dan up on his offer.


Harriet@21....what did you mean by "give legs to his marriage"?

I'm intrigued and would love to hear more about what is behind that statement.
I'm a 56 yo cis-guy bi fella....I could have written the first letter on this weeks column.
I've always been a heteroromantic with strong sexual attraction to both men and women...both flavors are delicious, but I've never found a fella I wanted to nest with.
I'm in an awesome, loving, deep, sex-filled relationship with a woman...and we're experimenting with ENM....mostly driven by my desire to get out of the "monogamy-is-a-sign-of-commitment" box, and to live my queerness and have some cock-oriented fun. I envision this being awesome for my partnership (stoking erotic energy, being authentic, being more fully me)...but I'm very curious about what views or experiences prompted your statement.


@69. Lava. You won it; own it!

@56. Philophile. You are right to indicate potential risks in WANNABI's going out looking for sex partners. One is that of being messed around, as you say; and I guess another is his catching feelings he can't manage by himself, with his wife and with his fuckbuddy.

@79. Fantastic. It would very strongly seem to me that 'Down to Fuck and Marry but Not Both' feels, at a deep level, that 'if you care for your lover too much, he leaves (or you risk his leaving)--and that's unbearable'. You are right to raise the possibility that he is asexual / demi with a strong libido, and that his unhappy experience of having his partner run off with a supposed friend has brought this to the surface. But I would think that both of us suppose that he has rather contrived a coping mechanism to pre-empt him from future pain. So then ... the questions are, 'how long will he need the coping mechanism?' (and here the answer could be 'forever'), and 'what might the costs be to people he gets into relationships with because he needs the mechanism (e.g. a companionate asexual partner) when his need for it starts to wear off'?

I think the different forms of advice are only differences in emphasis.

My own experience, at different punctual stages of my life, has been to accept (to myself and others) that I am one thing, or fall into one minority category, but to resist the label of another. So, in my late teens, I was 'gay' but not 'a bottom'--in part because my father was prejudiced against bottoms, who had feminised themselves for him, but not tops, who remained correctly masculine. Then I was effeminate but in no way bigendered or female. Then my sexual feelings were polymorphous--because everyone's sexuality is polymorphous--but I in no way wanted to act on my desires for women. I was in my late 30s/early 40s before I routinely and relatively consistently had the sex I always dreamed of, with people with whom I had good (variously loving, affectionate, cordial and respectful) relationships. I was imprisoning myself because I didn't think I was good enough, and because I was too ready to accept ideas such as 'but would you actually want the fantasy in reality?'. And so my prior is always to think that someone might well want the fantasy in reality.

But I should not let this color my read of 'Down to Marry''s situation too much, since there do not seem to be too many drawbacks in the 'care for yourself, have casual sex, sit with your desires, allow yourself to heal and see if you wait the same thing in two years' line of advice.


Harriet @76, what do you mean by numbness?
You already made a similar point to mine when you said @27: "For example, if he finds an ace partner who's a candidate for nesting, then experiences a resumption of hope, and wants to have sex with the person with whom he's made a home, things are going to work out badly for the ace/non-ace couple." I simply restated that along with the other side of the equation, namely, what if he achieves his nesting-partner-plus-casual-sex goal then catches feelings for a casual sex buddy. Both are possible.

"He has run it past all his close friends and heard just what the typical empathic but level-headed response would be--similar to your and Nocute's response, e.g. 'you say you want that because you're hurting. You think you'll never be able to trust again, but the trust and feeling will come back'. But he hasn't been satisfied with their answer." Can we assume this? From his letter, the friends haven't said, "This may just be a phase, see how you feel once you have had some time to get over your ex." They have said, "You're broken/nuts." Is DTF the most reliable narrator of what his friends have actually said, I think we can assume no. So we can't assume DTF has (or has not) heard the opposing, Nocute/BDF viewpoint and rejected it, and therefore we don't know whether it has or would satisfy him.

JibeHo @78, only in the sense of not wanting to join a club that wouldn't have me as a member. "As a lesbian, I am not interested in having a sexual and/or romantic relationship with a bisexual woman." Yet when I say this view is common, you've objected. I've dated lesbians and would again, but my hopes aren't high that they'd date me -- if any are willing to prove me wrong, if my sexuality isn't an issue for them, I'd happily date them! And they are out there, I've known a number of long-term bi/lesbian couples. Anyway, we seem to have made this about women and I'm sure the dynamic with men is different, so I'll get off this tangent now.


@84. LiberalScientist. What experiences? I'm in a relationship I hope will last for the rest of my life, with someone I find endlessly interesting. I would say he thinks the same way about me; he feels protective of me, while I feel protected by, and more actively admiring of, him. Now, in that relationship there is no presumption that the most exciting sex either of us have is with each other. Often our sex is emotionally reconnecting maintenance sex. Normally I would have an anxiety about this--because lots of the sex in my previous relationships has involved my taking kinks very far, performing something like 'sex tricks' (like taking objects up my ass). But the fact that my partner has sex that's more a thrill, and that's rejuvenating, with other men takes a lot of pressure off the more emotionally intimate but mostly vanilla sex we have.

What we both really like in bed doesn't match. He likes fucking twinks. He likes dazzling them, and being fascinated by them, and their seeing him as a Daddy/compelling older authority figure. I like exhibitionistic grouping. He is much more highly sexed than me. There was a lot of muddling experimentation before we found that we could both do our separate things and be involved in each other's sex lives without being present. For a time, he was interested in threesomes with me and the twinks, by which I was bored and from which I felt excluded, at worst. He sometimes comes to the dungeon I frequent, but I enjoy his being there more than, I think, he enjoys joining. (He is too much an egotist to be one among many!). Both of us have more imagination and creativity for the (infrequent) times we change it up in bed because of our other experiences. I should say that our very fundamental requirements--of his 'taking care' of me for me, and 'my being there for' him for him (in being the person with whom he can act out his conception of his manliness and potency)--are met by his topping me in a vanilla way.

I don't think the relationship could work in this way if the sex had to come first. For you, I would think what would be important to get right would be what kind of extramural sex, if any, your wife has, supposing you are going to go off and explore your gay but not homoromantic side.


Venn @77: "how many young people I have caught out lately who, after establishing that the number of genders is many, still cite that straight people are attracted "exclusively to the OPPOSITE gender"." Not necessarily a self-contradiction. Remember that there are many colours, yet blue is the opposite of orange.

Fantastic @79: "DTF may indeed be ace" -- he's not, he wants to have hookups.

Fantastic @80: Good luck! I hope you impress the interview panels as much as you've impressed us here! :)

Harriet @82, the context suggests that he's topped and bottomed for them.


@86. Bi. They were 'close friends'. I am assuming they know what he went through, and aren't just saying 'you're nuts'. Dan for the lw is a comparatively late resort (I think).

'Numb': a temporary, post-traumatic loss of feeling or receptivity. We don't disagree on this point. I don't think we disagree at all....


@80. Fantastic. Yes, hope you get the job! I'd employ you in a heartbeat. I think you are right with regard to the usage that 'ace' can mean 'wants to fuck, but doesn't make a significant personal investment in fucking, or find fucking a source of significant personal meaning'.


@Foxy: There's no indication that DTFOMBNB (DT from now on) is asexual (indeed, he says, "I still want and do have sex, just not with a person I might want a relationship with"). Dan brought up asexuality when he suggested that DT look to forge a relationship with a gay asexual as a way to address his bifurcated desires for emotional/domestic closeness and sex (granted, Dan didn't say it would be easy to find such a person).

It's possible that DT's friends are telling him that he's wrong, and I understand Harriet's initial point that we often try to tell people that we know better than they what they want and society also tries to jam everyone into little, prefabricated slots. But it seems to me that while DT may have permanently shifted in terms of what he wants from relationships, it's far more likely that his need to keep his intimate relationship and sexual relationships separate, since it is an apparently new feeling and one that followed a devastating betrayal and break up, is a temporary reaction/state of mind. I don't know what his real life friends have told him, but I don't see any of here as dismissing his strategy or telling him that he doesn't know what he wants and we know better.

His current attitude seems entirely understandable and relatable, given the circumstances, and it may persist the rest of his life, or it may disappear with time and when someone comes along who checks all DTs boxes. It will simply be easier for DT to find the NSA one-time-only sex than I suspect it will be for him to find a life partner who is gay and asexual, who never wants any sexual interactions with the man he loves, and is perfectly fine with that man fucking randoms whenever he wants. This sounds like a unicorn, indeed.

It would have helped if DT had told us how long ago the breakup happened.


Hi JibeHo. Always good to see you. Hope your go well Mr Venn, and the job hunting is successful MsFox.


I don’t know if it matters, nocute@ 91, when the breakup happened. This man is hurting still, and I’d forgotten the child, till MsFox mentioned them. More reason to wanna yell at this horror of an ex partner. And that’s just my response. Fuck him. and our LW is still hurting.


Ah! Thank you Harriet, BDF, Nocute, and everyone else for pointing out that DTF is not asexual. I even said myself that he was trying to compartmentalize sex and partnered affection into separate categories. I stand corrected.

A gay ace who is open to ENM does indeed sound like a unicorn. All the more need for an "All About That Ace" dating app for asexuals and the people who want to romantically, asexually love them.


LW2; that you can’t with a man after a couple of times having sex, indicates, to me, that you haven’t healed your heart yet, and is this really the full truth of you?
I suggest you stop having sex for a period of Mourning, and during this time, as Dan suggests, see a therapist to help you find, and move on from, the feelings you may be pushing down. Yes it hurts to revisit such a wound, that’s why seeking out a therapist, a skilled witness, helps one not feel alone. It’s not about blame now, means less negative energy wasted on such people as your ex, it’s about you healing and becoming whole again and being ready to trust fully again. And such growth needs solitude for a time, to be achieved. Insights gained into one’s own issues, and one for you could be learning to trust your intuition and being firm with it.


fantastic_mrs_fox @80 WAHOOO! and good luck!


BDF @ 18, nocute @ 30, few venns, couple Lavas and plenty others
My suggestion for WANNABI, a very nice screen name indeed, to find others in a similar situation to his stems from my own online experiences and observations back in the happier days of Craig’s List when such a post was common on either side or sub-side of the isle/s.

I’ve had my own share of mixed results in this online format yet never moved to the more specified, sophisticated ones.
The narrow definition of commonalities, as great as they may be, often come with other traits which are not that great and made me abandon online dating altogether.
I was and still am hoping to find partner/s in crime in real life, interacting with people I find interesting and experience growth in our relationships as part of an organic process.
There have been some leads and happy endings in that arena despite not always ending in an ongoing thang. Just like nocute I may face some marketing challenges on my own due to age, as well as a being a penis heaver attempting to make it in the kink community on their own.


Congrats on your hopefully new job. Some industries and occupations were severely hit in this pandemic and may take long if ever to recover. I’m afraid the one I used to be in for the past 20 years or so is one of them.
My attempts to find a new job led me to a few months’ accidental conversion-therapy macho gig. Both new skills as well as conversion attempts failed miserably.
That said, I just started a new one in a company that employs 25 women and two men, yours truly is technically one of them. The vibe is so different as it is quiet, no one chews tobacco, and the toilets are impeccably clean with ample supply of toilet paper, soap and paper towels. Not to mention the three different lotions!


CMD @97: "I may face some marketing challenges on my own due to age, as well as a being a penis heaver attempting to make it in the kink community on their own."

It depends on what you're offering. There's a significant niche for older penis-havers, provided you're on the D side of the slash.


Oh look. Hunsky!


@69 LavaGirl: WA-HOOOOOOOOOO!!!! Congratulations on scoring this week's highly sought after luscious Lucky @69 Award honors! Savor your delectable newfound riches and bask in the glory. :)

@75 delta35: Many thanks! I would very humbly love it. I would probably need to do some upgrades on my website, but can at least send mp3 sound recordings. :)

@77 vennominon: Many thanks! I hope your jabs went well too. xxx
Big hugs, positrons, and VW beeps from Griz and her Love Beetle. :)

@79 fantastic_mrs_fox: Many thanks! I have a website, currently managed by hibu for advertising. You can find me online through this website:
My email address is I can email you mp3 sound recordings as attachments--like I have to LavaGirl and others. I am indeed hopeful that I can draw the attention of bestselling author, Stephen King, regarding my setting a 2013 novel of his to music.
2020 was a year of healing for Griz, what with my recovering from a fall (small tear in my right shoulder cuff), and a full bilateral hysterectomy. Now I am back to work on more short orchestrated pieces based on king's book.
A lot of my latest composed work is not up on my website, but Griz finally got around to copyrighting my latest works from 2012 up to 2019, including my second symphony for full orchestra, which premiered live on December 20, 2019. So my copyright catalogue through the Library of Congress in Washington, D.C. is up to date. :)

@80 fantastic_mrs_fox: WA-HOOOOOOOOOO!!!!! Major best wishes on your job interviews! I know you'll knock 'em dead. Your employers will be lucky to have you as a new hire. Big hugs, positrons, and VW beeps from Griz and her Love Beetle :)

WOWEE_--this week's flying by! Who's up for the Big Hunsky? Tick...tick..tick...


@100 fubar: WA-HOOOOOOOOOOO!!!! Major congrats to fubar on scoring this week's Big Hunsky honors! Savor your highly coveted good fortune and bask in the glory.:)

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