Savage Love Apr 27, 2021 at 4:15 pm


Joe Newton



NADS: Straight women doesn't want to date Bi men? Please tell me about this unusual, not-at-all-super common opinion.

WWYD: Fear for your safety sounds outrageously overblown, you're probably in more danger literally every time you get in the car. But whatever - don't go. You can skip a cousin's wedding, no questions asked - just don't go if you're not comfortable/don't want to go through the entire process.

FOW: "Still, the film doesn't portray homosexuality, FOW, it portrays an individual homosexual." Dan is clearly a Nazi.

SADONE: Why do I feel like you two never Defined The Relationship. It's a critical step these days - a lesson for everyone to make sure they do.

CACA: I suspect that MOST men are capable of this, if they're interested. If you're not taking care of cum the old fashioned way, that condom swaperoo will eventually result in disaster, I'd recommend this type of sex only for barebacking couples.

Please subscribe to my soundcloud


If I have met some Germans and decide I don't care for them, there's no harm in my deciding not to date Germans. I'm not "leaving them single," per BDF @89. They aren't entitled to my interest and they've got billions of other potential partners.

That's very different from my choosing not to hire Germans, or harassing Germans who move into my neighborhood.

Similarly, I think it's okay for an individual to avoid dating bisexuals, even if it's based on an irrational feeling.

BDF is right that it's important to rethink preconceptions, so that one doesn't treat bisexuals poorly (in business, when socializing, as family members, etc.). But that's different from feeling obligated to include bisexuals in one's dating pool.

I agree with Philophile @97, that bisexual men who stay closeted on dating sites are choosing to hide who they are, just as people might hide depression. I would encourage them to be upfront precisely to sort out the people who will reject them on that basis. Doesn't Dan say herpes is a superpower because announcing to prospective partners that you have it helps you avoid people who have negative attitudes about herpes?


@98 'Withnail & I' Conclusion

I've finished re-re-(etc)-watching the film now.

I hadn't gotten to the worst scene with Uncle Monty. Now that I have...

(Long story short) Withnail deceived Uncle Monty into thinking his friend 'I' would be receptive to Monty's sexual advances, so Monty pressed those advances verbally towards the 33-year old man as far as to say he would 'be a burglar' of what he wanted. (That phrase was embedded in such lyrical language, that it was not serious. 'I' came up with a counter-lie which resolved the situation quite amiably.)

But it did peak a period of very high anxiety by the literally homophobic friend 'I'.

While softened by being in a farcical scene in a comedy, had it been IRL it would have been over the line. (As one would expect of a comedy.) The anxious character certainly thought so; but as I said before, the film is not endorsing this but showing how comically pathetic it is.

That said, everything I cautioned before about the film not being right for most young gay people, or for cripplingly anxious or dysfunctionally immature persons, applies. Ditto (re-quoting a quote from my @10), someone who is "a philistine, a Puritan and a snob."


Skr Curious - I shall give you an out by saying we are welcome to leave it at my having no taste for anything Pythonesque or similar. I don't think I go much lower than Bertie Wooster. There are some things that one must make a point of viewing through a British lens. I can respect your overwhelming passion for the film as an explanation of any oversteps you may take in its defence.

I am fine sticking with Another Country, despite Martineau's suicide early on. I was a not-that-much-toned-down version of Bennett at that age (remove the references to physical affection, and alas I never had long nights cuddling in a boat with any of my candidates for Harcourt), hidden in plain sight. I like many of the subtleties, and was reflecting this morning on Delahay's observation to Bennett that the suicide was the sort of trouble that ensued from having masters who weren't Old Boys, that a former student would have known he'd be interrupting a liaison and would have just gone about his business. It seems to fit in with Delahay's turning out to have been one of Bennett's many conquests and with his being the one to take over Bennett's caning when the conscientious Barclay can't go through with it.


My mind is quite occupied at the moment in deciding what to make of the announcement that this year will be the last Wimbledon with no play on Middle Sunday. This will be the last year in which, weather permitting the draws to have completed three rounds, all fourth round matches in both singles draws are played on the second Monday.


Mr. Venn @104: "leave it at my having no taste for anything Pythonesque or similar."

GASP! It's not often that I'm shocked, but presently I'm gobsmacked. If you haven't mastered Monty Python, you're at the whim of the world in the global war of words. If you find Python challenging, start with my personal bible, "How to Irritate People".

Having written that, and taking a few minutes to reflect,, quite a lot of their material has not aged well, and probably was not (and is not) appreciated by their targets at the time. But having grown up in the racist, homophobic, sexist, classist society that was (and may well still be) England, I always felt confident they were mocking the racists, homophobes, sexists, and upper-classes.

I'm not necessarily 100% confident any more. Some of their material was well off base, like the sketch that portrayed English judges as flamboyant gays. The intent was to mock "the system", but the portrayal put down and mocked gays.

That modus operandi was quite routine back in those days. In the 1980s, I walked out of a show because they had a gay character run out from the wings, flapping and fluttering, much to the amusement of the audience. Cheap laughs.

I'm reassured by the thought that the kids these days are having none of it.


Sporklandia @101: "not-at-all-super common opinion".

If you're trying to be sarcastic (which I think you are, because you're Sportlandia), and mean this opinion is /not/ uncommon, then "not at all super-common opinion".

But if you actually mean this common opinion is not (at all) super, then you got it right, and go you, Sporky. Big hugs.


Aunt Zelda @ 78, Ens.Pulver @ 85
In case there’s an interest, “Shooting Midnight Cowboy” is a great new book that goes deep into the people involved and the cultural and historic background:

Was it a homophobic film? This writer doesn’t seem to care:


@57 Well said. Lots of people twisting themselves into pretzels trying to give TLW the benefit of the doubt.


@102 ‘choosing to hide’. Really? Really?


@85 Ens. Pulver: I remember watching Midnight Cowboy on TV! My mother was shocked when she found out I saw it. I don't know why--like you said, so much had been edited for television (along with the disclaimer). It's so much better uncut and as is on DVD or Blu-Ray. :)

@100 fubar: WA_HOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!! Major heartfelt congrats on scoring this week's SL: Quickies Big HUnsky honors! Savor your highly envied newfound good fortune and bask in the glorious aura. :)


@108 CMDwannabe: Thank you for sharing. I read a book review about "Shooting Midnight Cowboy" in a recent issue of The New Yorker magazine {Louis Menand, April 5, 2021, Books]. It made me want to watch my own DVD copy all over again as I did late last night.
Some more notables in the film: lifelong New York City actress Sylvia Miles (b. September 9, 1924--d. June 12, 2019) portrayed the wealthy penthouse gold digger Cass; Jennifer Salt, incidentally also the daughter of Oscar winning screenwriter Waldo Salt, played Joe's girlfriend, Crazy Annie back in Texas ("He's the one....he's the only one...."), Ruth White, who sadly died shortly after Midnight Cowboy was filmed in December 1969, portrayed Joe's grandma, Sally Buck, and Belgian jazz musician Jean "Toots" Thielmans (b. April 29, 1922, d. August 22, 2016) was the haunting harmonica player throughout the film. And Harry Nilsson's hit song, "Everybody's Talkin'" sold six million copies, hitting No. 6 on the charts.


Phi @97, I'm ready for this discussion to be over, but bisexuals have higher rates of mental health issues and suicide than straight or gay people. You cannot pretend biphobia causes no harm.


@philophile @bidanfan
I agree with Fan that she should be introspective about why she doesn't want a relationship with a bisexual man. Tearing apart the stereotypes is likely a good start.

I agree with phi that nobody needs a "good enough reason" to not date or have sex or break up with anyone. Not wanting to be involved with them is sufficient.

Lesbians shouldn't be pressured to be with bisexual women and trans women. People who aren't attracted to someone from another racial background shouldn't be pressured to be with them. People who are unattracted to BBW shouldn't be pressured to give it a try.

People who are germaphobic shouldn't be pressured to be with someone who has herpes or HPV. People who aren't comfortable dating someone with mental health issues or who are neurotypical shouldn't be pressured.

People who are monogamous shouldn't be pressured to be with someone who has a history of casual sex, or poly folks. Even if that specific person is willing to be monogamous for them, it is reasonable to worry that they won't be able to maintain it for years.

Internal analysis, talking with a therapist, making an effort to break down any stereotypes or bigotry are still important.

So is avoiding rejecting them in a cruel way. I think it's best they not give any of those as reasons, and come up with something innocuous. They should avoid being rude or cruel in their dating profiles/etc. as well.

If they are already involved with someone, who discloses that they fit that category, they should handle it with as much grace and tact and caring as they can muster. I definitely think they should do some heart searching rather than reflexively dumping them.

I personally fit some of the categories above. I don't want to be with someone who is forcing themselves to be with me. I want an enthusiastic yes, desire, acceptance, not to be a token of their overcoming their bigotry or whatever is motivating them.


The only possible motivations you offered were bigotry or a fetish for straight men.

Some people are squicked by the thought of men having sex with other men. It's a literal gut reaction, similar to repulsion for ABDL, needle play, and so forth. I think it's also in the same class as vegetarians who are repulsed by people who eat meat (rather than just disagreeing on ethical or health grounds).

She might be able to overcome it. As long as she doesn't inflict it on any bisexual men, I don't think it means she's automatically bigoted or mean.

Personally, I think men being involved with other men is really hot! I am concerned that getting involved with a bisexual man who is actively having sex with other men will make me ineligible as a platelet donor. If he's monogamous with me, or we only do kink play rather than outright sex with other men, that wouldn't be an issue.


Opal @114, I wasn't arguing that unless she comes up with a good reason, she should feel obligated to date bi men. For their sake, she should not. I'm not addressing the question, "Should I date bi men?", which she didn't ask. I'm addressing the question, "Am I biphobic for refusing to date bi men?" Biphobes shouldn't date bisexuals, I think we are in agreement.


I think we need more words.


Here's a tangent:

I've seen it brought up by some people on this board that the letters to Dan have become "boring." And clearly the nature of Savage Love has shifted dramatically from its original incarnation for many reasons (not least of which is the internet/Google/ubiquity of online porn culture we're all swimming in now, as well as a certain mainstreaming of Dan and his column). I've been poking around some other advice columns this week because I feel like we wrapped up commentary this week's letters the day after they were posted. And I feel like we're rehashing a conversation from last week that was already beginning to feel fraught with tension back then. The letters to these other (not as good as Dan) columnists were so damn interesting! And the advice either unsatisfyingly terse or straight up awful. I don't know if Dan's just been getting crappy letters, or if he's busy cooking bigger fish, but I'd love to funnel some of these better letters to him. The fat we could all chew would be so plentiful.


Also, I don't know about everyone else's respective neck of the woods, but here in the perennially damp and gloomy Pacific Northwest, it has been sunny and warm and gorgeous the last several days. I hope everyone is getting to enjoy some more outdoor time and, as more folks get vaccinated, hopefully more IRL human time too.


Mr Bar - I recall how, during the Interim Period of Masterpiece Theatre when, between Mr Cooke and Mr Baker as host, there was a period in which stars introduced their own works and Mr Fry gave an account of the particular spot in British comedy for Men Wearing Dresses. Remember, though, my favourite joke in Mansfield Park is how Sir Thomas recommends that speculation will amuse his wife more than whist because, being a whist player himself, it would not much amuse him to have her for a partner.


Ms Cute - We do need more words, or at least some of us do. One thing about which I'd be interested in bi perspectives is on how presenting as straight, lesbian or gay is often designed to be a conversation closer, while presenting as bi tends to function more as a conversation starter. That could be a boon or a barb. When I was socially active, it was a great boon to be able to close certain lines of conversation with the G card.


@109 Right!? I’m dying. “Everyone has a right to be judgmental without being judged!”


Mrs Fox @118, how about an example or two? We've got five days until the next column!


@117 nocutename: Agreed and seconded. Pink Floyd's song, "Keep Talking" from their CD, The Division Bell, along with Dr. Ruth Westheimer's consistent advice of "Communicate! Communicate! Communicate!" come to mind. :)

@118 fantastic_mrs_fox: Agreed and seconded with BiDanFan @123. Please feel free to share some of these letters. :)


JodoKast @110 - not choosing from an array of wonderful options, sure, but yes, a self-identified bisexual who self-reports on their profile as straight is choosing to do so.

And making it harder for people who like dating bisexuals to find them. Internalized biphobia is also a thing.

And, yes, nocutename is right @117 to say we need more words.


From the annals of What The Actual Fuck Is Wrong With Some People:

"Five years ago I broke up with “Amy” because she couldn’t have children. I felt awful about it, but having a family had always been important to me, and she wasn’t interested in adoption or surrogacy right from the start. We just couldn’t imagine a future where we were happy. Then about a week before shelter-in-place orders started, I ran into Amy at a farmer’s market. She was six months pregnant. We talked for a while, I congratulated her, and she asked if I was a dad yet. When she found out I wasn’t she said that this baby could have been mine if I’d passed her test. According to Amy she’d never been told she was infertile—she just wanted to see if I loved her enough to give up on being a dad. So she lied for over four months until we broke up.

I can’t get over it. I don’t know if it is because I’m stuck inside on my own or what, but it just eats at me. It’s not the “what if” of it all. I am just angry and frustrated. The fact that I felt guilty for years because of a lie makes me feel like an idiot. The fact that she came up with this out of nowhere makes me feel like I never knew her. Who does something like that? Maybe if I talk it out with someone it would be better, but it doesn’t really seem like a phone conversation. Plus my brother’s a doctor and my parents are both at-risk, so they have enough stress without my five-years-ago trauma. Heck, it might help just to go to the bar and hang out with friends. I mean, I’d finally have something to add to the “weird ex” conversations. Except she doesn’t seem to be one. She’s got a job and a husband, and it’s just this one pretty strange thing? (Also, I can’t go anywhere.)

This was a really weird thing to do, right? How do I stop chewing on something like this?"


BDF@97 I just don't think it's right to call someone mean or mentally ill when they don't seem to be harming anyone, and I'm not sure that they are losing touch with reality or harming themselves. The only problem here seems to be the anger of people judging her. My first response to the question was that she should explore her reasoning to make sure she's not limiting her dating pool too much or spreading stereotypes or being mean. But I don't believe it's mean to reject anyone nicely. And it sounds like you're calling her mean or mentally ill when you call her a bigot and biphobic, but maybe we just need more words. I just don't think there's a mean reason to reject potential dates. There's just a mean way of rejecting- to blame the person for not being attractive enough rather than the "it's not you, it's me" cliche. And unrealistic reasons, believing stereotypes or that bisexual people have any universal commonality besides attraction to both sexes.

BDF@113 thanks for the article. It said the riisk factors were victimization, peer judgement, and family rejection. But not romantic rejection.


Incels also think that their human rights are violated when they are sexually or romantically rejected "too much", angry and vengeful. That's I just not the side I want to be on.

ALAF(amy lied about fertility) - Is fertility the most important? Maybe it was more important that she said she didn't want children enough to adopt. And aren't you glad that you dodged a bullet? You seem to think she's happy because you see no visible problems. But would you want to get close enough to see the problems again?


Phi @128: Incels are amongst those who think they're entitled to their privilege. They haven't stormed the Capitol yet.

Re, ALAF: My limited experience with "infertile" women was with one woman I dated who told me she was unable to conceive, so we should dispense with condoms. A mutual friend warned me that the woman had confided was trying to get pregnant.

As you say, Phi @138: bullet dodged.


@128 Philophile and @129 fubar: Agreed, seconded, and thirded. Bullet dodged. Wow. I've been there at least thrice.


Griz is veering a little off-topic, and this is really re last week's thread, but...
Dan the Man, did you ever get the email I sent you?

Okay--back to the weekend and Savage Love: Quickies :)


Aunt Zelda @ 112
Nilsson didn’t really like the song but agreed to included it in his album as a favor for his producer who did and it was chosen as the theme song over few others. Bob Dylan missed the deadline and his comeback “Lay lady lay” alludes to Joe Buck’s attraction to older women.

Dustin Hoffman was the one who convinced Schlesinger to choose John Voight. The competition was tough and included Warren Beatty and other famous names. Hoffman was asked to watch the four finalists and once it was over said he was watching his own performance with three of them yet concentrated on Voight when it was on.
That said, during the filming he realized his is not the main role, pulled a drama Qweeng and never attended the celebratory premiership.

Balaban got his gig thanks to an uncle who worked for MGM, the production company. When uncle asked what his role is he said, “I’m interacting with the main character, I give him a blow job.” Uncle never talked to him again.

The X rating came form a Johnson's Texan appointee who was personally insulted that Texan men are shown as homos.


The nonbinary youtuber Verity Ritchie recently uploaded a video about perceptions of bisexual men. I thought it was really good.


Phi @127, who called anyone mean or mentally ill? I didn't. NADS is the one who used the word phobic, asking the yes or no question, is that what she is. I also didn't use the word bigot in relation to NADS. You brought that word in when you said it is common for bisexuals to call monosexuals gender bigots, and asked the yes or no question, is someone a bigot if they start to reject bisexuals. My answer to these questions has all along been "it depends"; you're the one who is putting judgments in my mouth which may or may not be there. You introduced the word bigot and seem triggered by it, so I'm more than happy to use softer words like prejudiced or biased if you don't like the word you used. There seems to be a conflation of "is X bigotry" and "is someone a bigot." I prefer to think of bigoted attitudes rather than bigoted people; you seem to be taking a bigoted attitude and rounding it way up to a bigoted person, mean, mentally ill, unable to reject someone politely. Anyway I was ready to be done with this conversation two days ago. I won't be engaged further on the topic. My position should be clear by now.

Fantastic @126: Wow, Amy is a piece of work! How manipulative, I feel sorry for that child she's about to have. Or has had by now, I guess. My initial reaction was that they were both assholes, but ALAF was up front about wanting children and Amy refused to consider alternatives to natural childbirth. The letter is unclear on whether this relationship was only four months long, or whether they were together for some time before the question of having children came up. At any rate, a dodged bullet for sure. As for his actual questions: Yes, this was a weird thing to do. Good people don't give "tests" such as which do you want more, me or a child -- particularly to new partners. And who can you talk to about this? What about those friends? Don't wait until you're at a bar (hello pandemic) in a group, invite a close friend for a walk and share this with them. That's what women do, men are allowed to talk to friends about this sort of thing too. Or a family member -- don't worry about "burdening" them, they may be grateful to have a distraction from their own problems. If you don't think any of your friends or family members will be sympathetic or supportive enough, a therapist is an option. Be glad you failed Amy's "test," and good luck finding someone who wants to be a partner and a parent with you.


Also, Amy didn't have to be hurtful five years after the fact. This seems like a situation where a white lie, such as new fertility treatments since they split, would have been kinder to ALAF.

Fubar @129, that's not the first I've heard of women claiming they couldn't get pregnant in an underhanded attempt to do so. Another reason to always use condoms -- and get a vasectomy if you're sure you don't want to be a dad.


BDF maybe we do need more words. I thought biphobia was bigotry or unfair discrimination, like homophobia. Or mental illness like most phobias, a fear that is causing ourself life problems. I thought that was the reason NADS was afraid of being labeled as phobic, that she was worried she was being mean or hurting herself because she didn't want to date bisexuals or was only attracted to straight men.

"is someone a bigot if they start to reject bisexuals. My answer to these questions has all along been "it depends""
You seem to be saying that she might be a bigot because she won't date bisexuals. Logically it follows that people might be homophobics when we don't date homosexuals, or heterophobics if we don't date heterosexual. And those who only date bisexuals might be both homophobics and heterophobics. I just don't agree, I think homophobia is when you mistreat homosexuals, and refusing to date them is not mistreating them. Same with biphobia.

"who called anyone mean or mentally ill?"
Why else call someone biphobic, bigoted, or unfairly biased, or prejudiced if they are not hurting anyone? And if romantic rejection is sometimes unfair as modern incels say, then do you believe that taking away the rights or life of the rejecting party is the correct solution, like they do? Or is the solution just to scold them in hopes their attractions change? Modern incels started with that tactic. I rather think that all romantic rejection is ok, that it's best for the rejected to avoid dating people who aren't attracted to us, and that I don't need to justify my lack of attraction or romantic aversion to anyone but myself.

I'm fine if you stop replying, I'm not sure you'll acknowledge how damaging it can be to shame someone for dating in a way that isn't hurting anyone. And converting romantic feelings doesn't have a good track record of success, anyway.

Rejection is an uncomfortable topic. It's hard to be rejected, it teaches us we can't control others' feelings, just accept them and try to feel compassion they are missing out on our wonderful selves with their weird standards, and instead focus on trying to love someone who can love us back. It should be uncomfortable to reject until we're sure we're rejecting nicely, owning our own intolerance and aren't blaming the people we reject for not being "good enough". Sexual attraction is never reasonable, but sometimes it leads to procreation or social cooperation so it serves some purpose besides just feeling good. There are drugs if you just want to feel good.


@bidanfan it definitely sounds like we're on the same page!

@philophile it's biphobia which isn't a mental illness. It's not bipolar or a true phobia. It's the equivalent of racism and sexism, but directed at bisexual people.

People who are bigots in some aspects can be kind and caring in others, as BiDanFan mentioned. I don't believe anyone here considers her to be mean simply for rejecting bisexual men. As long as she isn't phrasing it as a rejection based on their sexuality, or in an overtly cruel way.


Ms Phile - This has come up before. I set the bar for calling something [blank]-phobic rather high; I expect that anyone I call homophobic (such as Mrs Court) would draw consensus agreement or very nearly. Others are more free with the label. If one applies it very liberally it may look wokescoldy, but my real difficulty is that I think calling something anti-gay ought to be quite censure enough, and that if there is a lot of so-called -phobia about, people won't take things that are called anti-[blank] seriously.


@bidanfan oops, I didn't see your "done with this" message. I didn't mean to suck you back in!

I agree that in Amy's case, a lie probably would have been better. Dhe clearly was rubbing his face in it, not just updating him.


@philophile I used to be very sensitive about rejection. For the most part, I now just interpret it as "we aren't compatible" not "there's something wrong with me!"

I agree with you that as long as NADS isn't being overtly cruel in her rejection, she shouldn't feel pressured (by herself or others) to start dating bisexual men.

At the same time, it is a good idea for her to evaluate her reasons. Try to address any stereotypes. Be mindful of her motivations.


"NADS...shouldn't feel pressured (by herself or others) to start dating bisexual men."

Has even one person suggested she should? (Er, maybe they did as I have been distracted...but who on Earth would want to date someone that is prejudiced against them?)

Her question is whether her disinterest in dating non-straight men is prejudice. As I tried to illuminate @98 with unlikely alternatives, it most likely is, so we should encourage her self-examination; as I also pointed out, even should she rid herself of the probable prejudice, her sexuality might remain stained by the prejudice.

NADS isn't shying away from considering whether she has been influenced by prejudice/bigotry, and I don't see why anyone would want her to. Good for her for trying to get to the bottom of it of something most likely ugly. (As I've said many times) If one can't name a problem, one can't begin to solve it.

I think it's too bad Dan addressed it as a Quickie. I think it's too bad people are so willing to avert their attention from prejudice.


@132 CMDwannabe: I read about that. Dustin Hoffman had sought out the role of Enrico "Ratso" Salvatore Rizzo, hoping to broaden his acting range and versatility. Because Hoffman had been given top billing, he assumed he would be the central character and was disappointed that the story was really more about Joe. There was a lot of drama during filming among all involved. Mike Nichols, Hoffman's director from The Graduate (1967) thought his young leading man was crazy to take the lead role in an X-rated film, fearing Hoffman's budding acting career would be ruined (that didn't happen; the unforgettable role of Ratso has since only helped it flourish). Although Dustin Hoffman's previous breakthrough role of Benjamin Braddock quickly catapulted him to stardom, the actor was concerned that his role in The Graduate was too close to playing himself. Surprisingly, Midnight Cowboy director John Schlesinger initially didn't want either Hoffman or Voight cast as Ratso or Joe! Marion Dougherty, a casting director who was left uncredited is responsible for landing Hoffman and Voight their Oscar-nominated roles. ["Fun City, The Making of Midnight Cowboy", Louis Menand, The New Yorker magazine, April 12, 2021, pages 62-65].
Robert Redford and Warren Beatty had been among actors interested in the role of Joe Buck. When the role of the naive fortune-seeking Texan instead went to Jon Voight, Redford went on to co-star with Paul Newman and Katharine Ross in Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid (1969), which proved to be quite a rival contender at the Oscars for that year.


@112 and 132 Griz. and CMD: I always hated "Everybody's Talkin' At Me" until I heard Susan Tedeschi's version. Who knew that song could rock?


Phi @136: "Why else call someone biphobic, bigoted, or unfairly biased, or prejudiced if they are not hurting anyone?"


Curious2 @141: “who on Earth would want to date someone that is prejudiced against them?”

It depends how hot she is.

But seriously, lots of people hide their true selves to improve their dating odds.


You're right; the way I phrased that had little general applicability.

I'm sure I'd have had all kinds of better success had I not had too much integrity. Certainly in my career; there's a lot of money to be made as in amoral management


Opal, “ I don't believe anyone here considers her to be mean simply for rejecting bisexual men.”
But you just said that she’s biphobic and that’s
“the equivalent of racism and sexism, but directed at bisexual people.”
Racism is mean, it’s mistreating people of a certain race. Sexism is mean, it’s mistreating people of a certain sex. So biphobia must similarly be mean, mistreating bisexuals.

Except I don’t think that sexually rejecting someone is mistreating them. So I don’t understand why anyone is calling her biphobic for sexually rejecting bisexuals.

Clearly, rejection is a hard topic for a lot of people. I wish everyone loved themselves no matter what anyone else thought of them. If anyone said they rejected you because you weren’t good enough, please realize it was their poor social skills causing your distress, not your inherent unattractiveness.

Hopefully NADS doesn’t reject people unkindly, she doesn’t say.


Opal, I agree with you about everything else you said, just not that it’s fair or constructive to attach negative labels to NADS because of how she dates.

Incels were first started by a bisexual woman who had trouble dating, and they weren’t sexist. But after she stopped moderating them, anger about their dating problems and then shunning women and hatred took over for 2 decades until we have mass murders and 4chan today. Anger about sexual rejection can be dangerous.


HUMP 3 countdown. Prepare the popcorn!


I don't think anyone has said this yet, but as a straight guy, I'm mad keen on bisexual (or at least heteroflexible) women... for obvious, self-serving reasons. Please don't wokescold me for it. (Thanks Mr. Venn for a great new word.)

That straight women may not be equally as keen on bisexual men just baffles me.


Curious2 @146: The real money is in downright scumbaggery.


"That straight women may not be equally as keen on bisexual men"

As you say, they aren't as into them as we are into bi women. But many are.

"just baffles me."

It certainly is baffling. But I figure that it's also perfectly explicable by the much greater social stigma around male homosexuality than around female homosexuality.

"The real money is in downright scumbaggery."

Nearly infinite.


Monetizing some degree of scumbaggery is extremely attractive to those so fundamentally fearful as to be greedy and right-wing, particularly when as is often the case they are so stupid they know that on a level playing field they always lose.


Late to the party, but I disagree with Dan's advice to WWYD. If they were invited, both of them, they should go, be their kind, jovial selves, and have a great time. These people sound like the classic "gays are the OTHER" to be afraid of-type people, and maybe a little edumacation is in order. People like that need to see us as regular, normal folks. As for the gift? Get them something nice off their registry--AND make a substantial donation in their name to HRC or

I know it's tempting to treat them like shit, but that's playing into their hand--people like that think we are all monsters; this is not time to reinforce that myth.


Ms Robin - What that shows the Country Club Set is that we're willing to let them set the rules. This is the sort of thing that could turn one into a right-wing politician's mythical Gay Friend ("Look at these lesbians having a wonderful time at my wedding reception!"). I'll agree with not sending a broken toaster, but the only thing that influences the CCS is not letting them keep up appearances. Think of a more successful Hyacinth Bucket. (Side point: a bi-Kinsey-5 acquaintance who once looked into a lot of same-sexer charities definitely disrecommended HRC.) And donating in someone else's name to a charity the person would disapprove just seems to beg for retaliation even if one doesn't find it passive-aggressive.


@philophile I didn't say she is biphobic. I said she should be introspective about why she doesn't want to date bisexual men, and address any stereotypes/bigotry/etc she has. I don't know what her reasons are, so I don't know whether she is biphobic.

I linked the definition of biphobia to you, because you incorrectly claimed that biphobia is a mental illness.

Even if she is biphobic, that doesn't prove that she is mean to the bisexual men she rejects romantically. If she calls them sluts, or unmanly, etc to their faces while turning them down, that would be biphobic, cruel, and rude.

If she were doing that, I doubt she would have written in to Dan about it! So, even if she is bigoted and/or biphobic, it is INCREDIBLY UNLIKELY that she is expressing it by being mean to the bisexual men who she rejects romantically.


There are many people who are sexist but who aren't mean about it. They are patronizing. They are rude. They have internalized sexism. They are misguided.

For example, the car salesman who expressed how impressed he was that I drive stick shift, since most women don't, wasn't being mean.

The guys who have mansplained simple computing concepts to me when I have a computer science degree and work in Information Technology weren't being mean.

I don't think that the gay men and lesbian women who told me I need to pick one or the other intended to be mean. Nor did the ones who said I need to have a girlfriend and/or do specific sex acts in order to be bisexual.

I doubt even the lesbians who said they never date bisexual women because we cheat or are promiscuous meant it to be personally insulting or upsetting.


Skr Curious - I did see a video the other day uploaded by a rather thoughtful non-binary bisexual suggesting that much of the prejudice stems from the way male bisexuality was treated during the peak of the AIDS crisis. Bi men were presented as a Serious Threat to Straight Women.
Mr Bar - I have a bisexual frenemy on another site who once listed it as a point in favour of mixed-orientation relationships that she and her husband frequently girl-watched together without its even occurring to her that that only works in the DS variety.
Skr Curious again - It would be a net plus for LW1 to change incorrect/prejudicial beliefs, though "stained" seems rather strong, as well as one-sided.


@philophile like I am encouraging NADS to, I have needed to do my own introspection and examining my motivations.

Like I mentioned above, I am concerned about dating bisexual men, since I am a platelet donor. I don't think that is biphobic on my part, but it is catering to biphobia from blood banks.

I'm nervous about dating other women or couples, because of worry about biphobia/homophobia being directed at us. I think it would be worth it for a woman/couple who I love. I'm not sure about how to make that transition, especially with being out to my relatives. I'm less concerned about other areas of my life.

I used to think it was ok to have civil unions separate from marriage. After the attacks on 9/11, hearing about people not being allowed in the hospital with their partner, I changed my mind.


@50. ChiTodd. No, I'm not recommending that SADONE reach out to her/his ex for a postmortem. Where did you get that idea? I was asking whether we could take the story (of the ex finding another partner without their relationship showing signs of strain or being questioned first) entirely on trust.

@43. Fantastic. I would think the lw should show Withnail to his son with the disclaimer that its representation of gayness is dated. The enthusiasts of the film are middle-aged now--English people and Anglophiles. Maybe a love of cult film rarely passes down through generations anyway.

@52. curious. It is entirely a matter of chance that you are praising a film I disliked--thirty years plus ago--on account of its homophobia. It's been a while since you've seen it; and I don't think you've seen it since you've been a participant on a messageboard / community with lots of queers and gay-normative perspectives. This may have sensitised you, and the problematic portrayal of gayness may turn out to be a bigger issue for you now.

@56. venn. No, not 'zealot' in that sense I was more a leftwing zealot, a gay-rights zealot at 19, 20. I identified almost entirely with the Marx-reading intellectual--'Judd'?


@66. Sheer Magnetism. True--but that was one of the few shorthands available for gay men at the time.

@71. Lost Margarita. I think First Love, Last Rites a deliberately offensive, affectless (series of) portrayal(s) of sociopathy. A quasi-sociopathic portrayal of sociopathy, as it were. But if it's thirty years since I saw Withnail, it's ten years since I read early McEwan.

@79. Griz. One would have hoped the country might have evolved past John Wayne. But it hasn't, I fear. It's regressed.

@80. Bi. I agree with you about the question that is actually being asked.

On what I think about the topic in hand, I am pretty much with Reverse Polarity @57, though RP is more emphatic than I would be. The underlying idea here would be that a straight/bi woman cannot plausibly say she is not attracted to bi men only on the basis of attraction. Since bi-ness is not visible, there has to be some reservation in her mind, some fear or prejudice, that makes a bi man a 'no'. As I take it, one of the things that Dan's advice to 'work on' or 'examine' one's tastes means is to seek to overcome them in situations where it might be appropriate--low-risk or low-cost--to do so--e.g. a woman might just want casual, affirming sex with a guy she finds super-hot; in LTRs she might interpret a guy's bi-ness as intimating she's not personally enough, while in this case that's not an issue, and she might be more open to going for it (e.g.).

I don't think anyone has put up an argument that one can just tell when someone's bi--that it's embodied or pheromonal in a way that can determine or pre-empt attraction. As I see it, there is consensus, then, that not wanting to date bi people of your gender/sexuality choice is a principle that someone has to explain or justify. (The Happy Anarchist @67 perhaps comes closest to seeing nothing that needs to be owned, explained, rationalised or justified).


@70. Electrophile. What do you mean by 'aversion'? Is it a disinclination to do something, in part informed by observations and values, or something a bit more visceral, involving a sense of recoil or disgust?


@101. Endless_ork. A hurtful, homophobic remark poses a different kind of threat than a car crash, though.

What you said about SADONE maybe not defining the relationship was also my (and Fantastic's) point.

@103. Curious. Not sure if you're reading this, but was the feeling in the main male friendship (of the charismatic drunk and the 'I' figure) gay for you?

@102. Erica. A straight woman not dating bi men is more likely to attribute dating-relevant qualities to bi guys e.g. incapable of fidelity; likely to leave her feeling inadequate, than someone is of Germans as a group.


@106. Fubar. John Cleese has become an old fart--making comments like London isn't like the rest of Britain any more. He lives where he was born in Weston-super-Mare (very like where Fawlty Towers was set), apparently.

@114. Opalescent. But why would you introspect if you're not looking for a reason? If 'introspect' doesn't mean look for a reason or (say) mull over whether your reason's good enough, what does it mean?

@118. Fantastic. When the right advice is relatively straightforward or obvious, and the person asking can't see it or can't take it, then they perhaps need more help than an advice column can give (like a counselor's, or therapist's). Maybe some people do hear the majority advice and get up and run with it, though.

There may be copyright issues in passing other-column problems to Dan.


Fubar @150, yes, we know. Don't know which is worse, being rejected or being fetishised. There are the straight men who simply view you as their ticket to an unpaid threesome of their choice; the minority of straight men who fear you're actually a lesbian and you're going to dump them; and the rare breath of fresh air who just thinks it's OK that you're bi, that it's your business not theirs. No wonder I prefer to date bi men.

Venn @158, so there would be two points in favour of a relationship where you could girl watch and boy watch together.

Harriet @161, I am glad to see we are in agreement. I'm glad Reverse Polarity laid it all out in a way that, should NADS read it, will hopefully make her think.

Harriet @163, I agree that was a bad comparison. A better one would have been a blanket refusal to date Germans, before even having met any, because Hitler grew up there. That would be Germanphobia, would it not?


@126. Fantastic. There is something pathological (or at least unhappy) in Amy's needing to be loved for herself--or rather, in her feeling that she is not sufficiently loved for herself if her partner wants, long-term, to start a family with her. Alternatively, just to consider another view, there's some possibility that, during their relationship, the lw gave off the vibe that she was perhaps a means to an end for him, a vessel, a baby-boat ... but I don't get a strong sense of this from his letter now. The test-of-love was indeed a weird thing to pull from nowhere, just as he says, if that's what happened. Quite possibly the right way to think about the reunion is that Amy concealed many insecurities or psychological issues from him, and that their compatibility was not as full as it appeared--implying he perhaps had an escape.

I hope he can start a family with someone else.

You're right--the letter was a lot better than many of Dan's. I've said before (this is not intended as provocation, but just as a view, as fat in the fire) that the problem with SL is that it solicits problems about sex, not people's love-lives generally.


@165. Bi. Yes. Or suppose someone had the (prejudicial but recognisable) idea that Germans almost always barked out orders during sex, and had a 'no fucking Germans' policy on that basis. This would draw a closer comparison to a 'no fucking bis' policy; and both policies would be based on demonstrable misattributions or overgeneralisations.


Harriet @161 re: McEwan tangent (thank you for picking it up, btw :))

"I think First Love, Last Rites a deliberately offensive, affectless (series of) portrayal(s) of sociopathy. A quasi-sociopathic portrayal of sociopathy"

Yeah, I get that that was what the author was going for. My point is that, IMO, he does it badly. He lacks the critical framing of someone like Will Self or Bret Easton Ellis, who also write "quasi-sociopathic portrayals of sociopathy" via highly misogynistic unreliable narrators.

IMO, when you're a misogynist who lacks self-awareness, you will write unselfaware misogyny, whatever your intentions (ditto for any other unexamined prejudice). Your writing will have a ton of "accidental misogyny" - misogyny you're not in control of - as well as the misogyny you put in there on purpose. In FLLR, even when McEwan is trying to write sympathetic, non-psycho characters, as in the eponymous story, or "Last Days of Summer", all he can come up with are deeply sexist, dehumanising tropes. And I don't think he can see that (and neither could my friend, who loved the book).

It didn't surprise me one bit, when dozens of women accused Harvey Weinstein of sexual assault and harassment, and Ian McEwan said "I dunno, I'm reserving judgement until this goes to court. Weinstein just looks like a monster right now, and I don't buy it" (paraphrasing without hyperbole). Cos who can trust what women say, right? They just make shit up about rape all the time, for their inexplicable womanly reasons - just like his character in Atonement (eyeroll). Not being militant here - if he wanted to reserve judgement in Weinstein's case, he could've just done it. But he chose to make a public statement about how he disbelieves all these women, and I think it takes a special kind of person to do that. I can actually think of a few possible reasons, but in the end it all boils down to "unselfaware misogynist", whichever way you slice it. He's mired in it, and so's his writing.


@128. Philophile. It seems Amy misled him that she could not get pregnant throughout their relationship. The most likely reason she didn't get pregnant while they were together is that (behind his back) she was on the pill. For a long time, it seems that she was waiting for him to say, 'o.k., you're enough by yourself', before she would reveal (as she planned) there was some hope of their having a natural child. If this is so, she is not a person that anyone balanced would want to be with long-term (or not in that state). She is unable to face her insecurities, or address them in any intelligent way, to the point where she is systematically deceptive towards a person very close to her.

@134. Bi. The lw in the Amy story is not an asshole. There is a gender double standard here. Very many women, from as early as their 20s, break off relationships with men who are not family-minded--there's a whole lexicon for this, from 'he only wanted a casual relationship' to 'he wasn't committed to me', meaning not just things like exclusivity or potential longevity of relationship, but whether the guy wants kids. Your point about how long the lw and Amy's relationship was counting for something is well-taken; but I understood her telling the guy that the baby could have been his to suggest that they had a solid and compatible LTR (with the sticking-point being principally Amy's putative infertility).

@135. Bi. The other scenario is that Amy has a 'miracle pregnancy' by the standards of her fertility and just said something vindictive to him. But why would she feel the need to be vindictive, if they left on good terms? Her test-of-love story is more plausible.

@155. venn. Yes, I agree. I almost feel the Country Club Republicans the bedrock vote and the deplorables the marginal-voting election winners.

@159. Opalescent. Maybe you could use a condom in having sex with a bi guy if you're concerned about your bloodbank donations?


@168. Lost Margarita. 'The Last Days of Summer' is the boating accident one, yes? I remember the narrator as being sociopathically dissociated.

Now that you bring the subject up, I will have read 10-12 books by McEwan and can't remember a rounded adult female character. The false rape allegation in Atonement I think is an allegory for authorship: the 13yo Briony cannot forgive herself for separating Robbie and her sister, cannot find any way to come clean, and so self-punitively becomes an author--a position where you have a godlike power, and no one can forgive or exercise any compassion towards you.

I think I prefer early McEwan to Self and Easton Ellis because with the latter two there seems more dishonesty: the motivation is clearly to write about something shocking, atrocious or depraved, but they shuffle it off by saying, 'this is about a sociopathic character'. I'm sympathetic to the impulse in the early McEwan that by cultivating a completely dissociated response to something awful (like the capsizing and drowning of a mother and child), you can tap into your creativity and capacity to hone a beautiful style.


Harriet @170 (CW: McEwan tangent for those who may wish to skip it)

"I'm sympathetic to the impulse in the early McEwan that by cultivating a completely dissociated response to something awful (like the capsizing and drowning of a mother and child), you can tap into your creativity and capacity to hone a beautiful style"

The character's dissociated response wasn't my issue with that story. It was more "misogyny as plot device", which is simply built into the narrative and not questioned in any way. The ending only works emotionally if the reader assumes that Jenny the fat woman (who functions as a mother substitute for the narrator - of course) tragically drowns. There's no reason to assume that a fat person would automatically drown if they fell out of a boat, as plenty of fat people can swim. Except the author/narrator spends an inordinate amount of time dwelling on just how fat this woman is - her huge rolls of fat, her arms hanging at an angle due to her bulk, barely able to fit into her room, etc. It doesn't seem odd that the author/narrator goes into all this judgemental visceral detail about some woman's appearance (never a man's appearance - of course), because all women in the McEwan universe only exist in relation to male characters - as victims, villains or ciphers in a man's story. The fatness of a random woman is an assault on a man's aesthetic sensibities (the narrator's, the author's, the male reader's), so he is fully entitled to critique her appearance in extreme detail. The reader is encouraged to take that description at face value and imagine someone so grotesquely obese she would surely sink like a rock - there's no need for the author to spell it out.


If anyone remembers last week's letter from DTFOMBNB, who despaired of finding a platonic LTR, the Gray Lady has a story today that says this sort of arrangement is definitely "A Thing."


Mr. Venn@158
"during the peak of the AIDS crisis. Bi men were presented as a Serious Threat to Straight Women."

Perhaps the reason that that remains top of my mind, is that the peak of the AIDS crisis was also the peak of my social life.

""stained" seems rather strong"

I hope you're right; it would be wonderful if NADS realizing her (probable) prejudice could remove the impediment to her interest in dating bi men. Like (to continue with the laundry analogy) a biphobia sexual-dis-attraction-stain-remover.

But as everyone is rightly saying, the bases of sexual attraction is often mysterious; so perhaps once prejudiced against them some might never become attracted to them.

I know that threesome fantasies are a very popular reason for attraction to bi women.

I just want to mention a different reason. The bi women I've known have been, like me, less interested in the traditional gender roles and more interested in gender equality.

(Though I am still kicking myself for turning a threesome down and in doing so losing the wonderful lesbian too.)


@harriet they ask on the form if you have had sex with a man who has had sex with other men in the past year. Some people lie about their own or their partner's sex life, but I'm not comfortable with that.

I'm also not interested in having an open relationship, regardless of gender. Condoms help, but they don't always cover areas affected by HPV and HSV. They can fail. It's also an emotional thing, I wouldn't feel secure. Prep would also be wise, but again, isn't a guarantee.

I would be fine having a closed polycule relationship, or as in my current relationship, doing kink but not sex with other people.

I think sex between men is really hot, and I like the fantasy of being with two bisexual men. I don't think it's impossible to find men who would be interested on those terms. It's difficult, especially since my boyfriend/submissive is straight.

So, I would need to find two additional bisexual men who have attraction to each other and want closed poly along with me and my sweetie, and maybe another woman.


"If 'introspect' doesn't mean look for a reason or (say) mull over whether your reason's good enough, what does it mean?"

Introspection means ": a reflective looking inward : an examination of one's own thoughts and feelings."

Yes, it can be looking for reasons. That is completely separate from whether the reason is "good enough."

Repulsion about gay sex, anti-AIDS indoctrination, assuming that bisexual men are always non-monogamous, or aren't masculine, etc are worth trying to work through, independent of whether she ever dates a bisexual man.

Nobody needs a "good reason" to not date any individual, or a member of any group. Not wanting to is sufficient. We need good reasons to date someone!


Opal, I didn't claim that biphobia is a mental illness, I said that most phobias are mental illnesses. Not usually homophobia or biphobia, that usually means hatred and mistreatment, though I think some people are just afraid of those groups.

My apologies, I thought you were referring to NADS here:
"People who are bigots in some aspects can be kind and caring in others"
But you never called her biphobic, and it seems like you don't think she's probably a bigot. Now I've thought more about the fact that she didn't share any of her reasoning.. If this was a question in person and she refused to answer my original questions@9 then I'd consider that reason to suspect her of biphobia. Publicly announcing her aversion while leaving out her reasoning, and her nonromantic behavior towards bi guys, looks bad. Still no proof of wrongdoing though.

I definitely think perpetuating stereotypes is mean. Ignorant and mean. My attempt to point it out gently would be like:
"most American men don't know how to drive a stick shift either these days. It's a lost art."
"You know it's a stereotype that women are bad with computers, it's not a nice or realistic assumption, right?"
"No, bisexuality is a thing, and believe it or not people still date me even though I'm attracted to both sexes! Why do you need to tell me who I should date or what sex I should have?" (because they are bored because they can't get dates because they are mean) Or if it's an SO.. "If you can't respect my sexuality and consent then we really shouldn't be dating."
"there are some mean people in every group who cheat, even lesbian cheaters. I try to avoid mean people (and then follow through and avoid those who cling to stereotypes). Bisexuals aren't promiscuous any more than lesbians are frigid, that's just a stereotype. Aren't stereotypes awful?"
I don't think people are usually intentionally mean or disrespectful, I think it's usually an accident or cultural difference (ghetto vs hick etc). Bad "lessons" from parents or schoolmates. Insecurity or anger management problems. I don't like feeling mean or insecure. All of your examples seemed mean to me, just cheap ego boosts from sad sacks. Not in the same ballpark as "it's not you it's me" sexual rejection which I don't think is ever disrespectful. I think it helps to address the meanness directed at ourselves, if it's safe.


Opal, thanks for explaining your personal interest. It is a shame that you feel you can't date nonmonogamous bi guys, but at least you can date bisexual women who are even more similar. And monogamous bisexual guys.

"it is catering to biphobia from blood banks"
I think it would be more ethical to lie to a bloodbank if you trust your bi partners and their recent partner(s), or saw recent sti test results, than to deprive yourself of dating someone you might really like for no apparent reason. I had no idea monogamous gay men were barred from donating, wtf. Even worse, if you've accepted money or drugs for sex in the last 40 years? How is that standard reasonable? And why show respect to unreasonable standards? If the underlying priority behind these questions is clean sti results, I'd make sure I have recent test results for all recent partners and lie when answering unnecessarily bigoted questions.

"I'm nervous about dating other women or couples, because of worry about biphobia/homophobia being directed at us."
Hatred and stereotypes and dehumanization suck. If it happens in a business or there's a cop in sight then maybe you can make fun of their stereotypes ("you've got to be very familiar with the equipment before you can make it work well boys" or something heterophobic?) idk. At least that's probably not too dangerous, I think guys usually pick on other guys too. I think it helps to feel physically secure, like defense classes, which should teach to use violence as the last resort but there if you need it.. I wonder how much more dangerous it is to openly be a lesbian than just to be a woman.. Always keep an escape route in sight.. In most cases you can get away and a shared challenge can be a great bonding experience. I'm sorry you have to deal with that challenge just to date women. With relatives idk just tell them if you met a nice woman or couple, and after a few talks that you really like her or them? Like really like? If they are uncomfortable at first hopefully they'll figure out it's good for you over time?


M?? Harriet - I put Judd as the other-faithed - "a joke, but a respected joke" as he told Menzies when he was still holding out against being a prefect.
Ms Fan - It's certainly a potential point in favour of B/S and a double point in favour of B/B. It just frosted my cupcakes that my frenemy advanced it as a point in favour of bi/mono.
Skr Curious - I am content with people adjusting their incorrect and hurtful beliefs; hoping for changes in personal preferences is going too far for me.


@171. Lost Margarita. It's true that it's assumed that both the obese mother-substitute and the baby drown. Now you come to mention it, it is much more likely that the baby would drown than the adult woman.

I think there are some women who are other than ciphers in McEwan--Briony imagined as a novelist in Atonement, the judge Fiona Maye in The Children Act. Fiona's situation would make a good SLLOTD--probably a better Savage Love letter than Ian McEwan novel. A husband in his late 50s in a sexless marriage asks his wife, a judge who rules on cases featuring children, for permission to have an affair with a 28yo. She refuses, horrified. She has become disgusted with the body after ruling in a case of conjoined twins that they be separated, which has the result of giving the possibility of life to one, and killing the other. This becomes a metaphor for the potential break-up of her marriage, which she plots in fantasy, only to be drawn back into the orbit of heteronormative assumptions about sex, romance, marriage and companionship.

Interesting if not obviously good.

@174, Opalescent. So the blood donation agency institutionalises homophobia? Are there laws governing what questions it can ask and which it has to ask? That's the kind of thing that still for me calls for constant activism and agitation.

It sounds to me as if it would be difficult for you to date a bi guy given your current situation and desires, but this isn't at all because of biphobia. (As I understood, at the moment you Domme a man).


Mr. Venn@178
Ah, I see. You misunderstood my use of the word stain @141. I was referring to the effect upon sexual attraction which we both agree will very possibly persist even beyond the extinguishment of prejudice.


I was agreeing with @philophile that NADS shouldn't be pressured to be involved with bisexual men. Phi specifically interpreted @bidanfan's and others' comments as applying said pressure, or at least encouraging NADS to pressure herself to do so.


I did understand. I guess my point was that it was more than kind of you to agree with such a nutty interpretation.

And good for you for being so kind! I probably was too when I got here. Our pair of nutty badgerers have worn on me; so much that I don't speak with them when I can avoid it; I sincerely apologize for putting you in the middle of that.


@182 p.s.
Wait, I worded that wrong. Everyone agrees with what Phi apparently offered (nuttily) as an interpretation of what BDF. It's just that the obvious statement was a nutty misinterpretation, a straw man.

I hate to encourage people by agreeing with their straw men.


@143 Ens. Pulver: Interestingly, Harry Nilsson himself hated the song "Everybody's Talkin'", and only recorded it to appease his producer. Nonetheless, the song made Nilsson an overnight pop star, selling a million copies.

@169 Harriet_by_the_Bulrushes; WA-HOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!! Double congrats on your dual winnings this week on scoring the Double Whammy honors (Lucky @69 + Big Hunsky @100 = Double Whammy @169)! Savor your newfound good fortune and bask in its glory. :)


Who's hungry for the Double Hunsky? Tick...tick...tick.....


BiDanFan @165: “ Don't know which is worse, being rejected or being fetishised.”

On fetlife, it’s definitely the former. The latter is de rigueur. But men on fetlife usually have to show up with more than “I have a dick and I like threesomes” to be successful.


If you're (or anyone else) is open to having an avatar, I'd be happy to help.


Harriet @169, the disqualifying question in blood donation is not "have you had unsafe sex with a man who is also having sex with men," but "have you had sex with a man who is also having sex with men." Condoms, while they 100% should be used, don't get you back on the blood donor list.

Curious @173: "I just want to mention a different reason. The bi women I've known have been, like me, less interested in the traditional gender roles and more interested in gender equality." Fair. My straight partner also tends to partner with bi women because (unlike NADS, potentially), we are drawn to his androgynous presentation and don't expect him to be "traditionally masculine."

Fubar @186, well sure, on Fetlife the whole point is fetishising. Off Fetlife, it is not nice to be treated as if you've sprung into existence for the sole point of fulfilling someone's porno fantasy.


BDF @165, I guess the widespread fetishisation of bi women by straight men vs widespread rejection of bi men by straight women can be partly explained by the presumption of "androcentric desire", which we were discussing last week in relation to gays and lesbians. If everyone buys into the cultural assumption that both bi men and bi women are more attracted to men, it naturally follows that an average straight man won't be worried about his bi girlfriend leaving him for a woman (so, yay MFF threesomes!), but that won't be the case for an average straight woman with a bi boyfriend.

Fubar @186, but men do show up on Fetlife with an attitude of "I have a dick and I like threesomes". Repeatedly, aggressively, and in large numbers. I'm not sure what you mean by "[being fetishised] is de rigueur". I know lots of women - particularly queer, young and/or POC women - who left Fetlife because they were aggressively "fetishised" (read: sexually harassed) by men. I'm sure you know some, too.

Tbh, I think that in recent years, Baku's selective laissez-faire, fingers-in-my-ears attitude to running the site has turned it into a real cesspool. Sexual harassment and rape threats are common, but there's a policy against "naming and shaming" other Fet members, so women who openly post screenshots or write about their experiences get their content removed. Political groups are a shitshow, overrun with alt-right nutjobs. Outright racist statements and memes are allowed to stay up, and POC members reporting racial harassment are told by site admins to "just block" the perpetrators (who then continue to harass other POC). Pedophilia, incest, and animal abuse groups are allowed to stay up, but groups and individuals drawing attention to this shit are shut down. Now the rope community has largely migrated to Instagram, I don't know how much longer I'll stay on Fet. I kinda cringe when Dan and others recommend this site as a starting point for kinksters - I understand why he does it, and at the moment there isn't a good alternative, but I think Fetlife is just as likely to turn new people off the kink community as draw them in.


Margarita @189, or it's the double standard applied to men and to women with respect to having sexual appetites, and the primacy of the penis, as Nocute mentioned. Of course men are supposed to be horndogs, so what could be more masculine and studly than having sex with not one, but TWO women? (Those two women wouldn't have been having real sex otherwise, as there would be no penis involved.) Women, on the other hand, are not supposed to crave sex for its own sake, outside of a relationship. A woman who wants not one, but TWO men, is a shameful hussy.

Re Fetlife - I agree with you. I have a profile I created to communicate with a few kinky friends and for events, but I've made it as bare-bones as possible to avoid being objectified.


BDF @190 Same here (re Fetlife profile). I used to post sexy content when I first joined some years ago, but took most of that off because of all the bullshit. Now I watch the hullabaloo about OnlyFans models using Fet to drive traffic to their pay sites, and I think - you know what, good for them. If you're gonna get treated as a fetish dispenser by randos, might as well get some money out of it. This was a long time coming. I won't be surprised if, in the end, it will just be HNG fuckboys and OnlyFans semi-pros on there.


@philophile @harriet for comment below.
@curious I will think about avatar options!

I'm not completely new, so I am aware of some of the tension between people. Frequently it comes across to me as vehemently agreeing, when they quibble over a misunderstanding!

I do try to be kind, and give people the benefit of the doubt. Sometimes people just misunderstand. My only D in all of my English classes was for totally missing the satire in "A Modest Proposal"!

I also find that meeting people on common ground works better. I once changed an abortion protester's mind about Planned Parenthood (though not about abortion). She didn't know that they perform medical services other than abortion.

I'm worried I came across as patronizing by linking the definition, but I was baffled by @philophile thinking that biphobia is a mental illness!

Likewise for @Harriet introspection doesn't mean just evaluating whether our reasons for doing something are "good enough". It's more about why we think and feel that way, learning how we tick.

I needed to clarify that NADS trying to delve into whether she is biphobic doesn't automatically imply changing her dating decisions.

Someone can hold some biphobic views and still date bisexual men. They can not date bisexual men, but not be biphobic. They can be mildly biphobic, and thus refuse to date bisexual men, but work on the biphobic perspectives in other aspects of their lives.


@bidanfan @harriet @philophile
I just did some research, and the time table has been reduced to 3 months due to Covid. The FDA says they are unlikely to reinstate the previous twelve month restriction.,in%20more%20than%2012%20months.

Yes, I could lie about it on the forms as a protest. However, I don't like living in outright dishonesty. I tend to feel panicked about it, because I was punished to the point of my running away multiple times. My parents accused me of lying when I was truthful, so I did my best to be honest (though tactful).

Plus, I absolutely suck at lying! I wear my heart on my sleeve and my emotions on my face. If it's just written, I could get away with it, but I am completely unconvincing orally!


@bidanfan @margarita @fubar
I agree that men are more likely to be rejected. When women and NB people are rejected, men are more likely to be cruel and nasty about it. (Calling them a fat ugly bitch and such when moments before, they were goddesses or the perfect submissives).

Men can be objectifying in really rude ways. Like BiDanFan, I think my profile discourages it, though it isn't bare bones. I had ~75% of DMs that were worth responding to, and I went on dates with about 25% of those.

Only Fans is just a new venue. A lot of women used other websites to promote themselves and try to earn money. It's a higher percentage, but some are genuinely kinky people who are trying to get by during Covid.


@margarita I have been tempted to leave Fetlife due to their horrible moderation, even though it hasn't directly impacted my own posts.

On the political front, I see more liberals than alt-right, but perhaps that's based on my feed and the groups I have picked.

As you said, there isn't a good alternative currently. I use it for events (virtually now), discussions, and found my submissive, my playpartner, and my previous Dominant there.


I'm thinking that an 'opalescent' avatar could liven up this place nicely. (Hoping an animated one that sparkles was an option, I just discovered that the the site does not accept gif files.)

"Sometimes people just misunderstand. My only D in all of my English classes was for totally missing the satire in "A Modest Proposal"!"

Back in the Pleistocene when I was in school, that would have seemed very interesting (as in how to diagnose that lol). But I think now there might be so many more people who would be happy to eat babies that it could seem serious simply by not knowing there had been change since 1729. (Particularly since 1979 I'm afraid.)

I wonder if our resident English professor(s) have a take on this.

"thinking that biphobia is a mental illness"

I've always felt it was unfortunately named. I guess this is another example of why.

I'm saddened by these tales of fetlife. I never got around to getting on it.

Isn't there some kind of positive feedback system that can help the good ones stand out?


I wasn't sure whether she was confusing it with bipolar or thought it was a true phobia.

A lot of people say they have a phobia of spiders, needles, etc. Usually they are genuinely fearful, but not to the point of actual phobia. I don't think it's usually classified as mental illness in the sense of depression, schizophrenia, etc. I helped a couple of my ex boyfriends work through it with gradual exposure.

For the one who feared spiders, I showed him pics/video of peacock spiders, we read Charlotte's Web, and gradually worked up to visiting the insect center at the zoo. He was eventually able to catch and release spiders from in his house to the outdoors.

For the one who feared needles,we started with pictures,then a syringe without a needle, then touching him with the needle without piercing the skin. He said it really helped, when he needed shots or blood work.


On the avatar front, I recently visited Lake Tahoe. The water looks like a blue-green opal! I can share a picture I took, and I'm open to other ideas. Animated flashing bothers my brain a bit, and can trigger seizures in some people!


@curious (sorry, forgot to tag the last couple), they do have that system, but it's based on popularity, not necessarily quality. If you do decide to venture onto Fetlife, I can recommend some people to follow. I usually found them when people loved or commented on their writing/photos.


Opalescent @195, oh yeah, I didn't mean to give the impression that the whole site is alt right - I agree with you that it's not. The alt right are just a VERY vocal minority, and VERY emboldened by Fet's lack of moderation. Check out groups like "Fetlife Politics", "The Political Arena", "Politics in the World Arena" (probably most active political groups), and you will see literal Nazis - I'm talking swastika avatars, posts about white genocide and Jewish conspiracies, the works. Someone I know suggested that people who have been kicked off all mainstream social media platforms wind up spewing their venom in the political groups on Fet, and I think they're probably right.

"Non-academic" discussions of pedophilia and bestiality are prohibited by Fet TOU, but widespread evidence of both can be found by searching for dogwhistles like "taboo" or "family" in group names. It's so obvious, I heard a theory that Fet is secretly working with FBI and such, and these groups are allowed to stay up because they're honey pots. I wouldn't rule it out, but as the saying goes, never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by incompetence. The likelier probability is that Baku simply can't be bothered to clean up house.

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