Savage Love May 25, 2021 at 3:40 pm

Both Barrels

JOE NEWTON

Comments

102

Forgiving unethical behavior is the real key to staying with a cheater. It's healthy to figure out how to forgive while protecting ourselves. But how can we protect ourselves from a serial cheater? Either sorta join them and try out ENM to see if they can do that better, or decide to save the companionate part and outsource all sex, or leave.. Or figure out if there's a way to reasonably trust them to be monogamous again, which seems most difficult, they have a habit of lying about monogamy and why would that change? People don't change their habits unless they want to change.

103

Registered European @100 (Congrats!): "I once had a sex worker use something on my that looked like a small plastic bag, quite loose, it felt somewhat cold and pretty nice."

Possibly an internal/female condom?

Philophile @102 - another option is to use condoms with the cheater (maybe internal condoms if he's male and you think he might slip it off). Or stick to oral and handjobs which don't spread STIs much. (Assuming the cheater is decent at oral etc. and willing.) That is, if the lies themselves haven't destroyed the relationship.

104

@Philo it didn't strike me so much as a calculated choice as the kind of thing writers do these days when they are accustomed to their words being scrutinized and triggering arguments. No way to know if that's where Dan's head was really at from over here. It just seemed sufficiently plausible to me to offer as an alternative. Traumatic is a big word. Whether you think there aren't that many people who couldn't possibly be traumatized or not by cheating (Allison's example, notwithstanding), it doesn't seem implausible to me that Dan would tread lightly with the word trauma. Shrugs

105

@103 EricaP re: female condom
That strikes me as a really likely possibility. And also I'll be remembering that idea as a nice alternative to gloves for handjobs if you want a barrier on your hands.

106

@105: you could put some lube inside the internal condom for an even more enjoyable hand job experience for the penis-haver.

107

Lulu, you're right, traumatic is a heavy word. It's not traumatic every time someone does something hurtful, in that way I can agree with Dan's phrasing. Thanks.

108

@68. Fantastic. The sense I get is that, by now, the column facilitates the advice-giving for Dan, rather than (if this was ever the case in the early days) having more people come to him for advice than he can fit into publication is a consequence of his writing the column. By this I'm implying that he maybe cares more about helping people than for the quality of his public 'boilerplate' advice. I remember how he described getting up, unable to sleep, in the middle of the night, opening his inbox and getting down to a 'consultation' with the first person in line. My reaction then was that he was putting a lot of pressure on himself--taking on an oppressive amount of responsibility, first of all; then getting into a place where his giving counsel was ceasing to be playful or fun, and had little latitude just to be blamelessly wrong; supposing that he was the person (the one person, symbolically) who could help his lw s; and, last, putting himself in a headset where it was all about how he could help other people, not about who could help him.

What Dan does, I would gather, in messaging the people who come to him with problems is ask them more questions, to elicit more information, before offering any guidance. This is what anyone would do. It's what every psychiatrist or counselor I've had in my life has done--and if you've been reading the board comments for a while, you'll know that I found these professionals mostly unhelpful. I would think the advice Dan gives individuals--on his own dime--using this method still excellent, possibly better than the 6-7 paragraphs of published advice after 1 para. of reader problem. I agree with everyone who's suggested that the 'public service announcements' in favor of monogamishness are not necessarily an appropriate response to anyone whose partner has cheated. 'If you were monogamish, you wouldn't have gotten into this pickle': This is not necessarily true; monogamish people can use blurred lines and differing-between-partners understandings to cheat or act badly. 'If you were monogamish, you wouldn't care so much'. This is not true: if you went to the trouble, sometimes if you were prepared to make the concessions, to negotiate ENM, and your partner still cheated, you might be more hurt. Everyone, especially BiDanFan, has made versions of these points.

109

EricaP @103, Luluisme @105
After looking at a few pictures of female condoms: yes, it's entirely possibe that it was a female condom, with something on the inside that provided a sensation of coldness.

110

@1 fubar congrats! This tanks my theory that curious2 is an AI or a human running code to auto-post firdt. Unless there was a glitch in the matrix/code.

111

CMD @97, it's ironic, isn't it, that there is SO much porn for men and hardly any toys. Men don't have any shame whatsoever about being avid porn consumers. Perhaps it's considered that PornHub and one's hand is all a "real man" should need.
Your ideas sound fascinating, I wish I knew people in the product development departments at LoveHoney or Sh!

Phi @101, good point. Anyone would be free to pop up in comments and say "well my spouse cheated and I wasn't that bothered," but I agree that attitude would probably be uncommon, and there would most likely be some background like the cheatee had wanted or even been pressing for an open relationship and the cheating, immediately confessed, became a quick route to the openness they had wanted all along. I can't imagine this situation is common enough for Dan to include it as a caveat when counselling people who've been devastated by cheating, like GUTTED.
At any rate, avoiding controversy seems like something Dan doesn't do very often, so I think it was more likely badly chosen words.

RE @109, or she had just stored it in the fridge/freezer? Or there was lube inside, lube at room temperature can feel C-O-L-D on one's sensitive bits!

112

BDF@111
"Perhaps it's considered that PornHub and one's hand is all a "real man" should need."

Even worse is a factor I'd like to think has declined over recent generations: Seeing actual women as devices for 'real men' to 'masturbate' in. By implication a 'real man' would not need a device, when there are human beings they can objectify/use.

113

Gay relationships are quite different than male/female relationships, I say this as a bi Male who has experienced both. In my personal experience looks, age, 'size' are a lot more important in gay relationships and so I can imagine how GUTTED feels about dating again at his age. It is much more difficult when you are gay. Who wants to be sexually desired because you are a 'daddy', fulfilling a stereotype with a role to play or because you may have some assets desired, esp if you have heart condition. My advice is to talk to his mate, declare the relationship "open" and realize a gay relationship without either party straying is beyond rare. As for the friend, dump him at once, he is no friend of yours!

114

@69 fantastic_mrs_fox: WA-HOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!! Congratulations to fantastic mrs fox on scoring this week's delectable Lucky @69 Award honors! Bask in your glory and savor the envied accolades found only here in Savage Love Land. :)

@100 Regitered European: WA-HOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!! Major congrats on scoring this week's Big Hunsky Award honors! Savor your newfound good fortune and bask in the highly coveted glow. :)

115

Curious @112, as in, "masturbation is for losers who can't get laid." As promoted by dozens of teen movies when I was young, and indeed, which formed a stumbling block to my own learning self-pleasure as a teenager. But this does not explain why porn has been (mostly) unashamedly popular for millennia. Have there been societal attempts at denial that porn is mainly used as inspiration for (male) wanking? Perhaps so -- back in the days when hardcore porn was sold in seedy shops and men claimed to "read Playboy for the articles." Hmm.

Thanks for your perspective, NWGuy @113.

116

BDF@115
"...for losers who can't get laid"

Yes, that expresses it better!

"...porn has been (mostly) unashamedly popular for millennia."

Well, men know that their sexuality is very visual. But it certainly is incongruous with the toxic thing around using women instead of one's hand.

I'm thinking that despite that most toxic message, many men always accepted that masturbation is normal and healthy. And pretty easy.

I'm quite amazed that there are places still extremely hung up about porn. (And about women.) I imagine that includes theocracies. And I'm dumbfounded by Japan pixelating genitals in porn (and the squealing).

"Have there been societal attempts at denial that porn is mainly used as inspiration for (male) wanking?"

Not that I know of, Iand doubt it.

"back in the days when hardcore porn was sold in seedy shops and men claimed to "read Playboy for the articles.""

I think that claim was only a lie men told women, children, and the developmental children that are religious fundamentalists.

117

@116 p.s.
"incongruous with the toxic thing around using women instead of one's hand."

Well, /mostly/ incongruous. (It is possible to use porn and women-instead-of-one's-hand simultaneously.)

118

Curious @116, I'm not sure "using women to masturbate instead of one's hand" is an accurate way to sum up that toxic approach. I don't think the men who seek to seduce and ghost women are doing so because they dislike masturbating, or because they think there is something weak about it. I think that this behaviour has nothing to do with masturbation, and everything to do with misogyny. It is a way to "win against women" in the perceived battle of the sexes, where sex is transactional, women use it as way to manipulate men into relationships, men manipulate women into "giving it up" then dismiss them as being "sluts," all that vom-worthy stuff. I don't think men seek to bang-and-run because they think they are too good to masturbate. Hope someone will correct me if I'm wrong.

"I think that claim was only a lie men told women, children, and the developmental children that are religious fundamentalists." So among men themselves, beyond high school perhaps, there was/is not a shame around masturbating itself, only the idea that one might want to use a so-called marital aid. Back to agreement with CMD's initial claim.

119

delta@110
"my theory that curious2"
You might be interested in my explanation, including why I didn't want to answer your question months ago, at https://www.thestranger.com/savage-love/2021/05/18/57473742/savage-love/comments/67

I am now bringing the same dedication I brought to being @1, to /not/ being @1.

120

Hey CMD and BDF: the older gentlemen with their vintage vehicles have started having their Friday vintage vehicle meet-ups in my neighborhood again. I see them all in vintage, color-coordinated lingerie in my mind's eye now. We still up for an international photo project?

121

A new column is up!

122

@119 curious2 Thank you for your very thorough explanation and disclosure / sharing a few weeks ago of your @1 streak technique - I had overlooked your explanation, hence my recent perseveration with AI theory jokes. You mentioned being embarrassed for sharing OCD tendencies and pandemic boredom and now I feel like a mean bully for my jokes / comments. Please accept my apologies for my insensitivity.

123

delta@122
Not at all, you are too kind. Your explanations were a compliment compared to the (as I said) embarrassing truth. That I couldn't answer was all me.


    Please wait...

    Comments are closed.

    Commenting on this item is available only to members of the site. You can sign in here or create an account here.


    Add a comment
    Preview

    By posting this comment, you are agreeing to our Terms of Use.