First!?

"I wish someone had told me that having sex with someone isn't a guarantee that everything will always work out."

Ah, to be young and naive again.....

LW 2:

"We’ve only been seeing each other for a few months since we have been dating and I do love her."

Love after just a few months? I fear a heart break is not long coming for you.

Of course he wasn't turned off enough NOT to fuck her. Seriously, what the fuck is it with boys and men? Enough of the psychological destruction of girls of women after using them to bust a nut. I recently learned about "negging" and how this activity (treating women like shit while on a date with them or making them feel insecure) is some sort of key to making these women want the shit bags engaging in this behavior more. Fuck that noise. What a horrible person that boy is and if there were any true karma in this world his shitty, hateful nasty ass would never get laid again. She should put up photos of him everywhere and warn everyone what kind of shit bag he is. Men feel so entitled to decimate girls and women in any manner they please. They literally kill women who turn them down or laugh at them. What was done to this young woman is vicious and fucking evil. A scorched earth, burn his fucking world to the motherfucking ground should be taken. I doubt she'll do it, but oh how I hope someone does one day. I hope someone destroys him completely, so much so that he never recovers. People who do what he does to other people are nothing but toxic waste. The world is better off with them dead.

I can’t believe Dan let it stand to call an explicit DADT relationship “cheating.” Cheating is doing it without permission. Doing it with permission is an open relationship.

@BODIES
"he didn't like my body when we were having sex for the first time and he told me right after"
"He means a lot to me and we want to continue to be friends."

Wait a second. The asshole did that to you and you aren't upset? You should be (and that is a problem).

(Dan did a good job of explaining why. Good on Dan for selecting that letter and giving the right answer.)

That you weren't upset suggests to me you might benefit from some work on your self esteem. There are therapists who specialize in that.

xina@4
"People who do what he does to other people...The world is better off with them dead."

I hope BODIES takes Dan's advice to have nothing to do with that asshole. But I hope BODIES does not take your advice to kill him.

There are good sadists, and bad sadists. Sadly, BODIES encountered one of the latter.

Sounds to me that this guy that BODIES fucked around with is seriously on the spectrum. What other reason could there be for someone to so matter-of-factly say such horrible things (unless he’s a serious psycho)?

Xina@4
“ Men feel so entitled to decimate girls and women in any manner they please.”
Granted that the guy in question is a vicious asshole,but you paint too broad a stroke. Not all men are like that. In the words of Henry Higgins (actually Alan Jay Lerner), “By and large , we are a marvelous sex. “

IR @5 - HALLPASS's choice to use the word "cheating" leapt out at me, too (and I was surprised and a bit dismayed that Dan didn't more explicitly call him out on this). This ultimately is the reason why the LW is tying himself up in knots, seeing being in an open relationship (or at least being given permission to be non-monogamous) as infidelity.

I agree with Dan that more conversations with his GF are warranted. HALLPASS's squick and hesitation are valid, and he certainly has the right to more details about what makes a DADT arrangement work (or not) for his GF. He is not wrong to want clearer validation that this is okay for her. I certainly don't blame him for any "It's a Trap!" alarms ringing in his head - "just use protection and don't tell me anything" would be too vague for my liking. Is he allowed to date or have relationships with others? Or strictly just sex? Can he have sex with the same person multiple times, or keep it all surface and single-serving? There are so many potential variables here, and I don't think HALLPASS is wrong to want more explicit boundaries.

Also I agree with Dan that he doesn't need to try to pathologize the situation. His GF gave him a super vague sexual carte blanche; wanting to run it by his GF for further clarification and more transparent boundaries in order to avoid inadvertently hurting her is hardly a "mother may I?" situation.

Hold up. HALLPASS writes (with emphasis added by the Fox):

"She was in a relationship ...and the person she was with wanted to be free to do as he wished sexually. She told him that was “fine” so long as he used protection and she didn’t know about it. Apparently that worked so well for her that she made me the same offer * after we decided to become sexually exclusive *: she told me to use protection if I should ever cheat and not to tell her about it."

Well fuck, I'm confused now too. Does his GF actually * want * to be sexually exclusive? Did that prior arrangement actually work for her, or was it a concession she made for a more sexually adventurous partner? Did his GF specifically use the word "cheat"? Does she want an open relationship, or is she straight up saying she doesn't want to know if HALLPASS stays? A whole lot more clarification is needed here. I catch a whiff of a trap myself.

It appears that LW2 is apprehensive because GF2 defines it as cheating. It's certainly worth a good deal of clarification.

As for L1, I think I tended to expect that sort of thing to happen before, during or after first encounters. Luckily I didn't have enough physical self-esteem for any to be damaged when that sort of thing did occur.

It took me a long time to learn that when people say "I just want to be friends" while also stringing you along, that they are not your friend at all. Don't let a romantic interest treat you worse than your actual friends would!

BODIES: So sorry what happened to you- that was beyond hurtful, humiliating and cruel. I'm in my forties and can tell you that there are more where he came from, unfortunately, who are equally cruel and ignorant. As women, there is so much misogyny, that you may run across this type of shithead again and it's soooo important to pick yourself up and build up your self-worth after having it crushed. Do not let his words have any long-term impact, b/c his ugliness is only about himself and nothing about your perfectly normal healthy body.

What you need to know to survive this horrible experience and still feel good about yourself is that you don't have to give him another opportunity to ever hurt you again. There are so many other better guys out there to make friends with and/or have sex with. Never a need to stay friends or f*ck buddies with a guy who is hateful and cruel to you. Make him a distant memory who has no meaning to you at all as quickly as you can.

Here's something I wish I had understood earlier in life, but it's taken me till my forties to really get this: When you see the mask removed within the first few dates and find out what a bag of garbage human being looks like, that is a blessing in disguise. It hurts like a motherfucker, for so many reasons. But that moment when you saw the monster that he is, that is your chance to call your own shots like you see it, make sure that hateful prick knows it's 100% his fault and love yourself anyway, b/c who needs his tiny dick for what? Not you. You don't need that shit in your life.

I've been the skinny hot girl and the chubby nerdy librarian type with glasses too. Nothing about your body type will change the type of man you attract. The only thing that matters is that you know yourself and set boundaries about what you are willing to accept. Right now you should celebrate everything there is about yourself, your body and your own brand of beauty. And don't be afraid to celebrate it out loud, frequently and as bitchy as you want, b/c it's a tough world, but the assholes are looking for the shy, sweet, nice girls that won't fight back. Don't be that nice girl that assholes like to target!!! Be a strong, smart, confident bitch who can put a man back in his place and tell him to get the fuck out of your life. Take any energy you would have put into him, and use it to better yourself in any way that you like. Love yourself first.

Men come and go, especially worthless creeps like him that enjoy hurting women b/c they will bail the moment that things get inconvenient, but your self-worth is forever. Take good care of yourself and your mental health.

@1, @2, and @3 George_ThunderWeiner: WA-HOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!! Congratulations on scoring this week's Savage Love FIRDT! Award numeric honors! Savor your highly envied status found only here in Savage Love Land and bask in this week's comment thread glory while leading us off. :)

@4 xina: Xina--wonderful to have you join us here in the Savage Love comment thread. :)

BODIES---I am SO sorry that that was your first sexual experience. What a total asshole!
Nobody deserves the level of pain you suffered because of him.
When I was in my early 20s, the man I lost my virginity to, unbeknownst to me at the time, was out to win a fraternity bet with a college pal of his, I guy from my high school senior class. No physical attraction to me---only that there was money involved if he could make it past 3rd base. My only comfort is that I'm so much better off in life without that creep and didn't end up pregnant (although we used condoms). And I had an extra takeaway later, just prior to my shipping out to basic U.S. Navy training. I invited him up to see me, and amazingly, he accepted. When he broke down crying, saying that he couldn't go through with sleeping with me, I told him I had just wanted to make sure I wasn't missing anything special because I had just enlisted for four years in the Navy. He left quietly. I haven't seen nor heard from him since. Rejection sucks no matter what. I feel your pain, and send big cyber hugs, positrons, and VW beeps your way. All the best with your therapy and healing.

@14 girlliegams +1 For the WIN!!! SO well said and summarized re BODIES!! Bravo, agreed and seconded. :)

Bodies-- My first time was almost exactly the same. He was probably on the spectrum, yeah, but he also had a severe porn addiction and real bodies don't usually look like porn stars. It is important to remember that you are someone's type, I promise, and there are so many people out there who would worship your body. Don't settle for anything less. Therapy helped me get ready to try dating again and literally every other sexual partner has loved my body. That guy you were with was an outlier, and it will get better.

LW1, I’m so sorry your early experience was such a devastating one. Not to discount the guy’s behavior, which was truly awful and extremely inconsiderate, but it’s very possible that you and what you look like have little to do with it.
This may be entirely on his side as he may be struggling with being present, his own lack of experience and insecurities, maybe not into women but unable to admit it, and so on.
That he chose to dump it on you could be his own defense mechanism. Again, a terrible move on his part that should not deter you from moving on.

Once the next opportunity arises take it slowly. Clothes don’t have to come off before some tongue twisting kisses followed by heavy petting above and below the belt. Consider your hand on his penis at some point, whether clothed or not, to better gauge his reaction.
Intercourse is not obligatory and isn’t the only thing that “counts.”. Laying nude next to each other and fall asleep together even without reaching an orgasm can be a good start and very likely leading to more. Developing trust and intimacy is what’s truly needed.

Not to discount others' experiences, yet hoping we're not heading to another genitalia war.

BODIES, if you're reading this, here are a few thoughts.

"I wish someone had told me that having sex with someone isn't a guarantee that everything will always work out."

I know that this is after the fact, but: Having sex with someone isn't a guarantee that everything will always work out.

I learned this lesson the easy way (for me), when a high school friend of mine, who was older than me and who went to college before me, told me about her experience. She lost her virginity to a guy who dumped her days later.

I'm sorry that you had to learn this lesson in such a searing and demeaning way.

The good news is that other people are worthy of you, in a way that this boy was not. Of course, such other people who are worthy of you, will love you for who you are (your Asianness, thiccness, etc.).

" (Having sex with them being sexually open and generous and having nice tits too!)"

Good! Concentrate on your strengths--these and many more.

I agree with Dan's advice, with one tiny caveat. If the ex is on the spectrum, and if he honestly has difficulty understanding how devastating his words were, and if he has other redeeming qualities, then perhaps--but only perhaps--you should attempt to maintain a friendship with him. Otherwise, purge him from your life, and move on to other people who are worthy of you. To be clear, that may apply even if he is on the spectrum. Even if he is, it doesn't necessarily mean that he should remain in your life.

@20 CMDwannabe and @22 Musicbiker: Lovely spot on advice for BODIES.
Kudos to both of you. :)

Oh, BODIES! I'm so sorry your first experience was so abusive. Yes, abusive -- it sounds like he spent years trying to get into your pants, only to insult you once he'd fooled you into thinking he was a good person. This is about him being a misogynistic psychopath, not you being thicc. I hope you meet somebody nice in the near future. Recommendation, don't go for boys your own age, who are very much still boys.
Dan, perfect turn of phrase: "The arsonist who sticks around to piss on your house after setting it on fire isn’t being kind, BODIES, he’s warming his dick by the fire and enjoying the blaze." I'll have to remember this one!

HALLPASS: Remember the three rules of successful non-monogamy: Communicate, communicate, communicate. Does your partner want a DADT or is she testing you? Talk to her and find out. It's OK if you prefer to have an openly open relationship -- to ask and to tell. If that's your preference, if you don't want to risk getting "caught" because you've told her everything, tell her that. If you want HER to also have the opportunity to sleep with other people under the same set of circumstances, tell her that. (Be aware that your acceptance of a DADT means she gets to bang other people too.) If you suspect she's not OK with it and would just prefer you don't give her any STIs, keep talking until you get a sense of whether this really is her relationship preference versus a trap. And if you're only a few months in... just enjoy the NRE! Using a hall pass when you're a couple years into a relationship and your eye is wandering is one thing. Personally, I find DADTs unworkable for many reasons. Sure, to you that may mean that if there's an opportunity for a one-night stand you can take it. But what if that one-night stand was great, and you want to see her again, and you keep seeing each other, so now you have a second relationship you have to keep secret? IMO, honesty is a better policy.

And sorry, Dan, but a lot of people find monogamy pretty easy. Plot twist, I was one of them (when monogamy didn't mean I was expected to die a half-virgin). I know a lot of commenters will point this out so let me just add to that number.

George @1, congrats on the firkt honours!

George @3, that jumped out at me too. HALLPASS, after a few months you're infatuated. Give it a few more to see how you really feel.

Insignificant @5, Dan appears to be following HALLPASS's lead: "She told me to use protection if I should ever cheat and not to tell her about it." So it's Ms HALLPASS who still considers this cheating, but seems to accept that cheating is inevitable and just doesn't want to catch any STIs because of it. I would advise HALLPASS to clarify that what she really wants is a DADT, meaning, she has given her blessing and therefore it's not cheating and therefore if she does find out, she won't dump him. It's her use of the word "cheat" that makes this potentially not a non-monogamy agreement, and that's what he needs to clarify before he acts on it. It sounds to me not like a "go ahead and do this," but an "I don't want you to do this, but if you do, at least limit the damage by using protection and hiding your tracks." That's why I think he should keep it in his pants until he finds out what her views on non-monogamy really are.

Curious @6, good call. Don't be friends with this asshole! And speak to your therapist about why your instinct is to keep a shitheel like this in your life. (I agree, xina @4, wow. How about just dump him entirely and let karma take its course?)

JY @8, you nailed it. He's a vicious psycho. If he is on the spectrum, BODIES could give him the benefit of that doubt and tell him that if he's ever in that situation again, that's one time he should keep his honesty to himself. But I doubt it, because prior to seducing her, he praised her for being "thicc" so he can't have been surprised at what her body looked like without the clothes, right?

Fox @11, so do I. Perhaps Ms HALLPASS has just read too much Dan Savage and concluded that monogamy is too haaaarrrrrddd for dudes, and just wants to be realistic about the chances of cheating over a several-decade relationship and limit any damage if it does happen. HALLPASS, unsurprisingly, is choosing to read this as "go fuck whoever you want, just don't tell me," which is very much not the same thing. I do give HALLPASS kudos for not jumping right to "but I would never do that!" when he suspects he might.

Girlie @14: "Don't be that nice girl that assholes like to target!!! Be a strong, smart, confident bitch who can put a man back in his place and tell him to get the fuck out of your life." Hell yeah! BODIES, you WANT to scare off assholes like this. Don't be desperate for male attention, otherwise you'll only get the wrong kind. Girliegams is wise.

CMD @21, good point. This is what misogynists are like, it's not what men are like. Let's not conflate them.

BODIES - Good God, we're all so sorry! U will thrive and be stronger, but no one deserves that (except the fucker who mistreated you). Dan and commenters gave you excellent advice you should incorporate into your therapy, recovery, and revival.

Except a) don't kill him and b) don't salvage a friendship with him. Yes, there are possible reasons he did this to you. Many of us picked up on The Spectrum, and he's also young (19-20?). But those possible explanations don't matter, because you do! Your health and wholeness are Job One here, and that's all that matters. Whatever he's got going on is secondary to your needs, and he has the rest of his life to figure it out without risking your well-being to help.

Ms Fan - Thank you for pointing out that monogamy is easy for many of us. I just didn't want to be the first because it seems that one would have to be able to conceive of attracting multiple people simultaneously in order to count.

C2 is reminding me in a backwards way of my PLB and how upset he was when he thought he'd cheated and I mistakenly tried to reassure him. It took me far too long to work out that he had that RC mindset about absolution.

I'm sorry to admit, in my younger days I was like the guy who BODIES had sex with. I was really high on myself and didn't care about how others felt. Hopefully as she gets older and more experienced, in life, she can identify the assholes (like I was) and avoid them.

Mx Wanna - War implies opposition. This will likely be just another round of bombing.

xxx

Ms Cute (whenever you arrive) - I have devised a Thorpe Award (Isabella, not John) - for a conversational trait that has shades of the Accomplished Woman conversation but is so thoroughly up Isabella's street that she earned the honour. I'll be looking for those who remind me of Isabella in this thread; maybe some will remind you of her as well.

@9 Dude here. I think the number of assholes far exceeds the small minority you're assigning. There's a whole lot of damaged men and the sexual revolution and technological age has given them the opportunity and the means to wreck sexual havoc on women, who are already under a barrage of harmful advertising and mixed messaging around sexuality.

I'm not innocent either. I've mostly been afraid of women my whole life so I have nothing like the sadistic LW's "lover" in my past, but I can be an asshole in other aspects of relationships. I don't actively try to be but it's often easier to be an asshole than to actually handle something like an adult. Most of my assholery surrounds not being able to communicate feelings. As I've grown up, I've been less and less of an asshole. But it's still there and I think it is for a lot of men, particularly young men. That's a societal thing, we teach men to be macho and not have or express feelings or be vulnerable. It's a bad thing (and something I think more current generations are getting better at). Some men wrap that up in sexual conquests and dominance and that's how you end up with the LW's asshole "friend".

@18 I dunno. I think a lot of what HALLPASS's girlfriend is really doing is making sure there's no longterm affair or emotional commitment. Sneaking around with an affair (never done it myself but can imagine) would be super stressful, I get that. You also have a good chance of getting caught.

But this kind of hallpass seems super useful for the random in-the-moment one-off experience (e.g. out of town on business in a hotel bar, out on the town with the boys for a bachelor party, drunk in a college bar after work with a random hottie looking to rebound after being dumped by some dumb frat boy). He just needs to avoid the cheats that will get him in trouble - coworker at happy hour, girl from the gym, friend's ex-girlfriend. Those are probably pretty smart to avoid anyways, they make life hard because it's has more dimensions to it because you know the person in other ways.

If he looks at his hallpass in this light, there's really no chance he's going to get caught so he can stop worrying. Don't give out a phone number or contact info and stick to those random moments where something is possible and she'll never find out. Especially if you make sure to use protection, which is just smart no matter the situation.

It's actually pretty mature. She's giving him an outlet and really not risking much - no one disrupts their life for the businesswoman in a Topeka hotel bar but people do really stupid things for the new hot girl in accounting. If she allows the former, he's less likely to do the latter. Andrei Kirilenko's wife famously did this.

@20 I just want to highlight the phrase "consider your hand on his penis at some point". That's a real doozy. i don't even know what it means. It feels kind of poetic but it also makes me feel like i'm in 6th grade and people are using a word sexually and I don't know what it means and I'm trying to pretend like I do so I don't stick out from the crowd.

@20 But yeah, really good advice. A big thing young people mess up (and old people too I'm sure) is to jump right to sex on early encounters. Build your way up, get to know someone. Everyone can still get their rocks off but you're also building barriers to keep the assholes from getting the slam-bam-thank-you-ma'am satisfaction that is so infuriating for every decent human being.

BODIES - New word! Thicc is supposed to be a humorous word, maybe it's a negging word that isn't actually a good compliment. The problem with banging a friend is that you can lose a whole friendship if dating doesn't work out. But how much of a friend could he have been to dump you right after sex? It's sad to realize you've just kissed a real frog but if you let him hop away, maybe the next will turn out to be a prince! It's a skill to find genuine, honest, secure people who actually care about you and don't just want to use you.. You are most likely to recognize and attract one of you can become one..

HALLPASS - If she thinks cheating is ubiquitous, then she probably cheats on her partners. That seems to be the big red flag, to me. Whoever first asked for exclusivity in this relationship seems like a player.

larrystone@31
Oh, I agree. My post @9 was a joke. After xina’s over the top advocacy of murder, I thought a little levity would help. Maybe she was joking also, but it didn’t seem like it.

Side gripe: the commentariat has this ugly little habit of jumping from "someone said something really dickish and hurtful" to "perhaps that someone is on the spectrum." Yes, some people on the spectrum have a hard time cloaking their words in symbolism or unspoken implications the way "neurotypical" people do all the time. But being an asshole is not a neurodivergent trait, it's just being an asshole. Let's please quit trying to excuse people being hurtful by suggesting they're on the spectrum.

@auntie grizelda and @BiDanFan,

Thank you, I feel quite honored. I rarely comment, I have been stuck in the past the last year or so, voraciously reading through all the previous Savage Advice columns and comments. I very much enjoyed them all.

@vennominon,

"War implies opposition. This will likely be just another round of bombing.".

Your clever comment helps to articulate that there are careless, selfish, mean and damaged, viciously cruel Humans in life, regardless of genetalia.

My mother being one of them. She quite literally destroyed the lives of every man she had a relationship with and left them emotionally devastated and broken. She was very calculating and acute with her dealings with men or any female "friend" (I say "friend" because she was never truly a friend to her female victims) who was unfortunate enough to come into her life.
She did quite a number on my many siblings and I as well.

Life was entirely too difficult for all of us with her as our mother which, over time, we all eventually removed her entirely from any contact or association with each of us or our spouses and children.

Fortunately my siblings and I all have excellent to very good relationships with each other. Having not only witnessed but also experienced intimately our mothers harmful wrath gave each of us the encouragement and grace to be loving, accepting, forgiving and the earnest desire and motivation to have good and truly grateful relationships with each other.

Now our relationships outside each other have had varying results for my siblings and I.
Three of us have all been married to our spouses for 25-40 years, one divorced now remarried, and one of us has been a lifelong bachelor.

Fox@37
I was wondering when Fantastic would make this good point.

I think it's somewhat understandable that people think 'well we only have her side of the story, so maybe if we heard more we'd see it a different way, and explain that different way in a yet different way'.

But I think Fantastic is right; that's second order "jumping". First to a possible different side to the story, second to a possible different explanation for it.

It's frustrating that we can't gather more information (as I feel about the majority of letters) about how exactly he said what he said. But since we can't, I'm inclined to just work with what we have and call an apparent asshole an asshole.

BODIES might of course hear that and get back to us with more information about how we were wrong /not/ to do all the aforementioned jumping. I'm inclined to wait for that turn in a dialog with her. Though I know that others like to occupy time with jumping.

BODIES: Do not remain friends with this guy. As others have said, he's either an asshole or an asshole who's also on the spectrum. But either way, he doesn't deserve your friendship. If you really do care about him, you'll be doing him a favor in the long run by perhaps teaching him that you can't treat others this way and expect them to remain your friend.

One of my many faults is that I continue to be astonished at people's capacity for cruelty.

There can be a few things going on with BODIES’ ex-fling beyond sadism.
• Negging, as suggested upthread (look it up—it’ll be enlightening);
• Making sure that BODIES won’t become attached and clingy;
• Experiencing post-orgasm blues and assigning blame for his disappointment and disgust to his sexual partner.

Yeah, he might be spectrummy. Not relevant. He׳s not emotionally mature enough for you. If that’s the case, letting him experience the consequences of his immaturity—when he hurts people they don’t want to be his friend—could help him grow up.

You might think you’re supposed to be the bigger person and demonstrate your own emotional maturity by not feeling the sting. That’s not really how it works. You can be emotionally mature by identifying people who take up more psychic energy than you want to give them, and not giving it to them. Trying to be friends with someone who is not who you thought they were is not emotional maturity.

+++ +++ +++

I’ve experienced something similar. I met someone and there was mutual interest. After a bit he started confessing that I was perfect in every way so he kept hoping he’d get used to my body, but it wasn’t happening and he didn’t know what to do. He brought this up several times (always with clothes on) before I set a limit. I said I appreciated that he trusted me enough to be honest with me but that this was not my favourite conversation. I understood that he might need to talk his ambivalence through with someone but that someone was not going to be me. In the meantime he either fucked me or he didn’t. His call. (Outcome: he continued to fuck me but it was never good.)

We were 37. I don’t blame us for our compromises. We knew ourselves well by that time and we both knew who else was out there for us. It was an informed decision.

This is not the kind of compromise someone in their teens or twenties should be making in their sexual or romantic relationships or in their friendships. At this time in your life if what you’re doing doesn’t work out, try something different. Take risks. Explore. Learn what sexual rejection feels like. Learn to be compassionate towards yourself and others. Learn what sexual acceptance feels like and learn how to hold our for that. Learn how to navigate your own hopes, fantasies and emotions. Learn how to navigate others’.

Then when you meet someone worth rounding up to The One, you can do it without compromising your integrity.

“We had talked about all the sexual stuff we wanted to do and he had previously told me I was attractive and thicc and paid me other compliments. … I wish someone had told me that having sex [being sexually open and generous and having nice tits too!] with someone isn't a guarantee that everything will always work out.”

You can do everything right and there’s no guarantee. All you can do is cut your losses, learn what you can and move on.

Things to keep in mind:

“Sex is kinda like pizza. When it’s bad, it’s still pretty good.” That’s a line from a movie, spoken by a male character. In heterosex, this is often about right for the man. Even bad sex is him putting his dick somewhere warm and wet and coming. He’s not physically afraid of his partner, he’s not going to become pregnant and he’s at lower risk than she is of contracting an STI. If an individual man lacks emotional depth, there aren’t a lot of reasons for him not to seduce (lie to) and have sex with partners he’s not into.

Our best data tell us that something like 6% of unincarcerated american men have raped at least one woman and that a significant minority of those have raped many more. Rape in these studies is defined as using substances or violence to get sex from a woman who otherwise would not have had sex with them. Since it is impossible in practical terms to convict a man for getting sex by using violence against an acquaintance or substances against a stranger, this behaviour is relatively low-risk for men. (Men who get sex by using violence against strangers are the ones who end up incarcerated.)

Anyway… that’s a really high number. Out of every 17 random men you meet, one has raped at least one woman.

“Talking shit to an interested woman to get into her pants” is not rape. If one man in 17 is willing to try rape to get sex, how many more are willing to try talking shit? One in eight? One in four?

That still means most men are not-rapists and not-shittalkers. Great news! But as a woman who has sex with men you still need to be aware that this is a thing and to have a high index of suspicion. You can do everything right, but if you’re dealing with a shittalker you are still going to be treated like bad pizza

You aren’t bad pizza. He’s a bad man. We know he’s bad because the way he treated you left you with significant injuries. Good people don’t do that.

I’m so sorry.

BODIES-- He wasn't being brutally honest. He wasn't being honest. He was attracted to you just fine. He thought you were perfectly beautiful. He was lied to you after sex because he is brutal. He did it while cuddling because he's figured out that's the way to make it hurt the worst. It would help if you thought of him as a rapist who has figured out a way to skirt the laws about having sex with women without their consent by lying to them. He lied when he suggested he was your friend. All he wanted was to hurt you. He did that. Stay in therapy since that's helping. Talk about my suggestion in therapy first, but I think something that would help a lot is to find the other women this guy has raped-- I'd bet the farm there are some-- and talk to them. I'm not sure how you'd find them or how you'd get them to come forward, but if you could, it would be enlightening for all of you to find that he operates pretty much the same in all instances. If he hasn't fallen into a pattern yet (I don't know how old he is), he's developing his pattern.

(I am not using "rape" according to the legal definition. I don't want to get sidetracked. I don't have a better word for what I'm trying to describe. If anyone does, I'm glad to hear it.)

Mrs Fox - Are people proposing the spectrum as an excuse or an explanation? I agree that the jump is a frequent one, and often irritating. Here I might find it an explanation of sorts, but not any comprehensive excuse.

Mr Thunder - Well, we both know what destructive mothers are like, then.

The asshole who screwed BODIES is not on the spectrum. The idea that he is on the spectrum comes from the idea that those on the spectrum blurt out their truth without the social graces that make it possible for them to save feelings. This guy knew BODIES for 5 years before he convinced her to have sex with him. He'd observed her body well enough to compliment her on it. Then afterwards, he told her he didn't like it.

Think about that for a moment. What might a guy discover about a woman's body for the first time when having sex with her? He might discover that she has scars on her abdomen. There could be some genital difference, large or small labia, I suppose. But if it were any of those things, BODIES would have mentioned them. No, BODIES only said that she had Asian features and that the sexual partner complimented her for being thicc beforehand. Presumably he dumped her for being fat afterwards. He liked her body well enough to fuck her and let her be a notch on his bedpost. That has nothing to do with spectrum behavior. Look it up.

I am not quite sure what HALLPASS wants. What he says at the end is that he wants to 'make' his 'peace' with not using the pass. In other words, he suspects that his gf will be angry if he gets caught fooling around, that he may be risking the relationship if he gets caught fooling round--and since he knows her better than we do, there's likely to be some truth in his suppositions. But even if he can resign himself to monogamy, he feels bad about this: he'd like to have multiple lovers, and feels bad (maybe) about having the prospect of sexual variety dangled in front of his nose without his being able to grasp it. His question may then be about how he can stop wanting to fuck around.

In that case, Dan's answer is right: he should try to work out why (and whether) he's working through historic child abuse by finding validation in women's sexual indulgence of him. But this needs to have nothing to do with his relationship. Anyway, there's an easier answer to his problem: get his gf to rescind the pass. If he thinks she would be angry if she caught him red-handed--say, if he was fucking a colleague of hers; say, if he and his lover were in their bed--then encourage her to say, and to be clear that such behavior would jeopardise their relationship. If not taking away the temptation, this admission on her part would take away the unclear offer and the possibility.

I didn't think, in fact, that she was setting a trap--nor that she was angling for an open relationship. It's possible she thinks something like, 'men have a hard time being monogamous. You don't hold onto them by holding them to monogamy'. That is, there could be insecurity or self-esteem issues underlying her telling him to be discreet if he has, absolutely has, to stray. Of course, he should absolutely ask her to be more explicit about what it is she's offering or (possibly) in her own mind conceding, him. Is she responding, in some form, to his having said that he salves his childhood hurt in e.g. casual or promiscuous sex? Is she saying, 'well, if it means that, go ahead but do it discreetly?' Or if he told her that the relationship, her companionship, is worth his being monogamous to him, would she then say, o.k., then, stay on the straight and narrow?

It could be that BODIES's lover told her she was unattractive in the spirit that a teen might say 'that was a disgusting meal'--thinking this just an honest thing to say and an uninvolving or uninvested one to hear, not understanding the hurt or damage his remark would cause. In his mind, he may have been able to tell her afterwards because they were friends. But of course it would have been better to say nothing, and better yet not to have gone through with the sex if he wasn't feeling it.

@37. Fantastic. I agree. I find it dispiriting both when hurtful remarks are excused as being from someone on the spectrum, and when people on the spectrum are written off as destined for emotional illiteracy or at best crassness.

People should scrub the 'on the spectrum' in their minds and replace it with a Chinese or Indian person saying something like 'a selfish American individualist' e. g. 'you think it's justified to leave the mother of your child', 'justified to have multiple lovers', 'to leave your hometown in midlife' ... 'but you're a selfish American individualist'. Almost anyone would think the person saying this was refusing to engage with them as such. They would think the social category (of the SAI) misconceived or not having the explanatory or diagnostic power the non-American granted it, sure, but their irritation with the characterisation would go beyond this. People on the spectrum without learning disabilities can be right or wrong, tactful or tactless, independent of their diagnosis. If somebody wouldn't accept a very broad-brush 'you say that because of [the type of person you are]' about their own views, they shouldn't say it about autists/Aspies.

37, 49-- Fantastic and Harriet. I agree, and Dan started it. It's not just the commentariat. Dan brought up the spectrum thing first.

I could babble on about other psychological issues which might quite possibly have underlaid BODIES' asshole's asshole behavior. But I think doing so would be a pointless waste of time for everyone including me.

Just to point out that BODIES letter is not clear as to what sexual activities they were engaged in, how it went, and why it ended. While it can go either way it’s still possible the encounter was never “fully consummated,” as Jimmy Swaggart put it after his ongoing shenanigans with a sex worker came to light. If so, maybe the dude lost his erection or never had one to begin with, was ashamed and embarrassed and came up with a very bad excuse without fully realizing how cruel it is.
We don’t know anything about his own sexual history and it’s quite possible that he was also fairly inexperienced considering all the pre-production discussions they had.

It’s also about two thirds into her letter when we learn that this was her first experience ever, a bit jarring since this is what the letter is all about.

I have an acquaintance who is autistic. When he heard me telling a friend that a close relative had been diagnosed with colon cancer, he chimed in “that’ll kill you quick.”

I don’t think he’s an asshole, but without “on the spectrum” he does sound like one.

I don’t think there’s anything wrong with people suggesting ASD as an explanation for BODIES's awful experience. It’s more palatable than psychopath-in-training.

@52. CMD. You are right that we don't know what sex they had, or whether it finished in the conventional sense of him coming.

It's hard for me not to see him saying one thing about her figure to get her into bed and another when he's had sex and doesn't want a relationship with her. He doesn't necessarily say something vindictively cruel to me (BODIES doesn't see him as vindictive), but he is wantonly cruel. He will almost certainly be young, immature and inexperienced himself; and some of the responses casting him as a sadist seem to draw on commenters' own experiences.

@50. Fichu. The people here who think autism/Asperger's a distinctive bent of mind or 'condition' are unlikely to have read up enough on it to have a robust or shared sense of Aspies' psychological characteristics. Instead, people will likely either describe the particular features of neurodiverse folks close to them, introspect to aspects of their own nature they deem non-neurotypical, or fall back on popular representations. There will almost certainly be a variety of views in what we, the community, think Aspies are like: that they (we) find it much harder to communicate what they like, need or find instinctive; that they (we) are unusually literal-minded and reject or don't understand symbolism; that they (we) can't grasp the implicit; that they (we) have no empathy; that they (we) are happily free of shame, social anxiety or the need to join pack behaviors, and so on. The degree of consensus will not be enough to lead a responsible conversation. If people like Dan are interested, or plan to continue using the term, they could take a more serious interest in the social science.

Once again Dan, well-intentioned as he may be, makes himself difficult to take seriously.

"But the culture encourages people who don’t wanna be monogamous (that’s a lot of people) or who find monogamy difficult (that’s everybody else) to see themselves as damaged. And yet we’re told that monogamy is always easy for people who are emotionally healthy—which is a lie—" frankly I couldn't even finish his ludicrous sentence. Where the hell does he get his information from that leads to these irresponsible conclusions? Does he really believe there AREN'T any people who WANT to be monogamous and are HAPPY to continue to be so?

This reminds me of his laughable assertion that "gay people make up 5% of the world's population." And he knows this HOW?

Yeah, wayne @55, everyone knows it's 10%.

@vennominion,

"Mr Thunder - Well, we both know what destructive mothers are like, then."

Please, with a name like Thunderweiner, "Mr." is far from called for, George works just fine.

I've read through the previous years comments, unfortunately I know the regular and consistent commenters based on their comments and I feel rather guilty I am unknown, which is why I shared so much about me with you. But I guess that's how the internet works, I suppose.

My wife's mother is very much like my mother was, controlling, manipulative, withholding of affection and basic support young people need, and really most of us throughout life need.
I thought I had found an ally and kindred spirit when I met my wife as a 19 year old boy, many moons ago.
One phone call I received at work betrayed my naive 19 year old self, which I have been basing my life on, until recently.
Which is how I stumbled upon Dan Savage, after Dear Abby and several others left me floating in a sea of fluff, searching for real insight into relationships.
Thank you for responding and Best Wishes.

@25: "And sorry, Dan, but a lot of people find monogamy pretty easy."

True. Not necessarily easy in a trivial way, but easy in the sense that choosing monogamy just feels right, or is the less painful/less complicated/less stressful/more loving/etc. choice.

@wayne,

"And yet we’re told that monogamy is always easy for people who are emotionally healthy—which is a lie—".

I agree with Dan Savage here, I wouldn't have 3 years ago agreed with him. Monogamy is easy for me, but I never thought or desired to seek out others after meeting my wife. Mainly due to the fear and dread of repeating my mothers record of multiple (5) marriages and chaos she caused.
That was my ignorance and naivety. Ignorance and naivety due to the lingering affects directly linked, at least as I view it, to the damage my mother caused in me.
So in my annecdotal experience only, I agree with Dan, I'm a damaged Human and monogamy is easy for me, because of the aforementioned damage that is an integral part of me.

@musicbiker,

"True. Not necessarily easy in a trivial way, but easy in the sense that choosing monogamy just feels right, or is the less painful/less complicated/less stressful/more loving/etc. choice."

Very true, however, you are only speaking and thinking for yourself. Your partner has her/his own voice which you have little to no control over.

@45: "Are people proposing the spectrum as an excuse or an explanation?"

I suppose a bit of both. Of course, it applies only if he is on the spectrum. This is probably not the case, but it's theoretically possible.

I know several people who are on the spectrum. I still remember an interaction with one of them several years ago. He and I had known each other via email for several years before we met in person. We first met in person at a concert. In front of several people I know, he said something to me that could be construed as being quite rude. Because I knew that he was on the spectrum, I knew that he was merely delivering information. When others around us looked quizzically at me, I just subtly put my hands out to defuse the situation. Several minutes later, he returned to say that he didn't mean what he said to be so blunt, that he was just trying to tell me something. I thanked him and told him that I understood. I could see the light bulbs go on over the heads of people around me. It also told me that he was fairly high functioning on the spectrum, that he could realize after the fact the error of what he had said previously (or, perhaps, that someone else had clued him into this fact, and he grokked it).

@60: At risk of being blunt: so? Even if that were true of a hypothetical partner of mine, how does that invalidate my point?

@fichu,

"It would help if you thought of him as a rapist who has figured out a way to skirt the laws about having sex with women without their consent by lying to them".

I'm unable to comprehend a viable example of this statement. I'm thinking a married man lying to a woman about his marital or relationship status in order to have sex. But that is not rape, it's simple dishonesty and selfishness.
Or am I misunderstanding what you were trying to convey?

@fichu,
My apologies, I missed this from you:

"(I am not using "rape" according to the legal definition. I don't want to get sidetracked. I don't have a better word for what I'm trying to describe. If anyone does, I'm glad to hear it.)".

Again, my apologies. I would think "selfish asshat" works, in place of "rapist". But I understand the intention of your comment now.

@Musicbiker,

"@60: At risk of being blunt: so? Even if that were true of a hypothetical partner of mine, how does that invalidate my point?".

Since we're being blunt, maybe, just maybe, you're damaged and don't know it.
Granted, you may be one of the lucky few to trapse through life unblemished, stolid in your well being and understanding.

I wish I had your resolve, again.

@25 BiDanFan re Girliegams@14: Agreed and seconded on Girlie's spot on advice to BODIES. She nailed it. At 24, I wanted to scare off the guy who I lost my virginity to after believing that our one-night stand had meant something. He moved out of Seattle and never came back. If he still feels like a worm now, well, good.

@38 George_ThunderWeiner: You are most welcome! :)

Who's salivating over this week's Lucky @69 up for grabs? Tick...tick...tick....

@51 curious2: I'm veering off topic here, but thank you for emailing me about the mp3s I sent you. I responded (forgive my lengthy reply--I got passionate on the subject of music). :)

And this week's luscious Lucky @69 winner IS...........

@auntie grizelda,

I love 69, so me!?

Dashing @28, glad you learned and grew into a better person. That's why I advised BODIES to avoid boys her own age. Mid 20s might be better; any older and willingness to date a 19-year-old would be a strike against them.

Venn @29, never fear, Sporky is here to return fire.

Larry @31: "Most of my assholery surrounds not being able to communicate feelings." I think you've hit the nail on the head. Toxic masculinity means that boys aren't taught to communicate, they're taught to suppress any feelings that may make them vulnerable, and many behave in assholish ways as an alternative. Or they are fighting their insecurities by trying to conform to assholish stereotypes about men. It takes age and wisdom to figure out that hurting other people is not the best way to keep from getting hurt yourself. (Which quite a few women do too, just seldom in that particular way.)

Mrs Fox @37, it's a potential explanation, not an excuse.

George @38, glad you've joined us! And congrats on both the FIRKT and the lucky 69.
Gotta get to work, will come back to the rest of the thread later.

@69 George_ThunderWeiner: WA-HOOOOOOOOOO!!!! Congratulations on scoring both the FIRDT! and this week's Lucky @69 honors! Savor your envied SL status and bask in the glory. :)

Griz is back from another movie night. This time, The Sting, a Newman - Redford classic from 1973. I've just gotta love those guys--always a class act.

Fichu @46, I don't think it's as certain as you make out that BODIES knew she has a "flaw" and that this was what turned Mr BODIES off, and that she would have mentioned this in her letter. Firstly, I'll say that I agree with you that it's probable the guy pursued her, then was cruel to her on purpose. I also think CMD @52 makes a very good point that BODIES's letter could be interpreted as the sex stopping short of PIV. Perhaps, as stated above, Mr BODIES expected a porn-perfect body and was disappointed to discover boobs that are affected by gravity, or a hairy bush, or stretch marks, or any perfectly normal human thing that wouldn't have been apparent while BODIES was clothed. To give an example, I have on more than one occasion come home with a pretty goth boy only to be unpleasantly surprised at the sight of a hairy chest (and more). On these occasions, I've gritted my teeth and had the sex anyway, and not pursued a repeat performance. But CMD may be right that in that situation, perhaps Mr BODIES went down on BODIES, but was unable to fake further passion and told the truth when questioned about his lack of erection. Personally, I'd have recommended he suddenly come down with a "migraine" in that situation, but if he is a decent person with unrealistic body expectations and a lack of tact (due to autism, youth or both), hopefully this has taught him that sometimes kindness is preferable to honesty.

73- BiDanFan-- You misunderstood, or I wasn't clear. My point was that BODIES didn't have a flaw, or she had no flaws that Asshole couldn't have known about before he saw her naked. He made up flaws, lied about flaws, when it suited him after the fact. If there were flaws, he knew about the flaws all along because they were obvious for 5 years with her clothes on.

Fichu @74, a hairy pussy was obvious with her clothes on? Must be REALLY hairy. Sorry, but some "flaws" are not visible with clothes on, and some "flaws" aren't universally considered flaws. We don't know what it was about BODIES that turned Mr BODIES off. We don't know whether he was turned off or whether he made it up. You -think- you know, but your theory is just that, a theory. Was he evil or just tactless? We don't actually have any proof either way. From BODIES's perspective, does it matter? No. She just needs to rebuild her self-esteem after this, and tell this guy to go away forever. Whatever it was about her body that this guy didn't like, there are plenty who will.

Mr Thunder - It's an homage to the late Mr Crisp, whom I had the good fortune to telephone with a message from a West Coast friend shortly before he died.

Ms Fan - No SCUDs sighted yet.

Ms Fichu - "Spectrum" is among the Words of the Moment (similar to the way Lady Middleton considered the Miss Dashwoods, because they were fond of reading, "satirical" - "perhaps without knowing what it was to be satirical, but that did not signify. It was censure in common use, and easily given."). Paltry scales no longer suffice. I feel for anyone with a knowledge of exact terminology.

Xina @4
I really don't understand that. If they aren't attracted to or turned on by someone, they should back off politely. Not use them as a Fleshlight then emotionally abuse them.

One of the people I was really angry about was complaining about all of the women he thought were ugly but fucked anyway trying to reach out to him afterwards for second helpings. Kinda humble-brag plus oblivious plus cruel. 🤢🤮

Curious @6
How did you conclude she isn't upset? She sounds very upset, wounded, and insecure about it to me.

She thought he was her friend for years. She trusted and cared about him enough to have sex with him. It's not surprising that she still wants positive interaction with him, especially if they are still in the same social circle.

I have a couple of male friends who asked me out, then decided they were interested in me sexually, but not romantically. Nothing near as bad as what happened to LW1. They weren't mean. The rejection stung a bit at first, but I genuinely enjoy their company on a platonic level. It took a while to readjust. I don't think this guy is someone who is truly a friend towards LW1, and I agree she is better off without him.

I completely understand her not wanting the last 5 years of friendship to all be a lie. I totally understand her still trying to salvage it. I understand her still having mixed/positive feelings towards him.

Not to sound like Hunter, but another possibility here is that Mr BODIES is gay. Many gay men find women and femininity beautiful -- witness the popularity of drag -- but don't want to have sex with them. Perhaps Mr BODIES is a younger Dan Savage, and thought he could will himself straight by having sex with a female friend he admired. Another possibility, in addition to clueless asshole and malicious asshole.

JY @8
A lot of men who otherwise have good social skills and are neurotypical will say really mean and rude things to women they aren't attracted to. He's an edge case, but it's a matter of degree. Lots of women are also cruel to other women very casually and matter-of-factly about our bodies and looks. They seem to think they're doing us a favor by explaining how unattractive (or fat, or whatever) we are.

Subhubby @9
https://time.com/79357/not-all-men-a-brief-history-of-every-dudes-favorite-argument/
I agree that there are many wonderful, caring men. It can be triggering to me when people say that all men are violent, uncaring, hateful, awful.

Just saying "not all men" in this situation is rude and tone-policing.

Curious @6 Xina perhaps went too far in saying the world is better off with him dead, but she didn't suggest violence. She recommended LW1 try to ruin his reputation and make him an outcast. Specifically, posting his photo and warning all other women what a creep he is. Trying to ensure he never gets laid or has another friend.

I think the world will be a better, safer, happier place when a lot of people are dead. This creep, the one who molested me, Trump, Mitch McConnell, etc. I don't intend to personally kill any of them. I just will be happy and relieved, like when Rush Limbaugh and Fidel Castro died.

fubar@53
"I don’t think there’s anything wrong with people suggesting ASD as an explanation"

I don't either. I guess it's just that I don't have enough interest in and time for the speculation.

I'm not offering a psychological explanation I think is more likely for that reason.

George@63
Re: "It would help if you thought of him as..."

I too think the word choice is objectively poor. But fichu herself says it's not the right word. For me the key was that she thought the wrong word "would help".

And it could. Because the LW's problem is psychological, and that wrong word could help the LW feel wronged. Once there, the LW can process their own appropriate re-orientation to the proper words(s).

Opal@78
"How did you conclude she isn't upset?"

Good point. What I meant was that she still wants to be friends with the asshole.

Opal@81
"Xina perhaps went too far"

Perhaps? Xina's @4 was chock full of going too far.

"Just saying "not all men" in this situation is rude and tone-policing."

I disagree. In that there's nothing wrong with calling Xina on her shitty, offensive, and mean tone. I didn't deem doing so worth my time, but the troll bloody deserved it. It's one thing to talk about "all men" when none are around to be insulted, but I'm standing right here and I would prefer not to be insulted.

"the world is better off with him dead"

One way that saying that is "too far" is that I'm surprised that that comment wasn't removed. I think that a website like the Stranger would be well-advised (including legally) to remove statements like that; LW's to an advice column are often by definition troubled, and it's irresponsible to say things like that to them.

The only reason I didn't unload this earlier, is that I thought that Xina was a long-time Commenter here. (Well she is, but not on Savage Love, on the other, political, threads on The Stranger. It didn't take me long to discover that that's where Griz knows her from.) In other words I thought she was someone else who is wonderful, but who was having a bad day.
I don't suppose Xina is reading this since she hasn't followed up, she probably just popped in and is back in the Wild West on the political end of the site now...but I wish she was because there was a lot about that Comment that was totally inappropriate here. We're trying to help troubled people here, and one shouldn't be telling troubled people someone that abused them would best be dead.

"she didn't suggest violence"

She obliquely implied it. Doing so made it, like much of her Comment, fucked up and to me unwelcome here for the reasons above.

/Break/
But yeah, I can't wait for Trump to die. Alive, he's a great danger to the USA and the world.

Ok, "excuse" was not the correct word (I see no one is excusing the young man in BODIES' letter for his shitty behavior here). And yes, Dan kicked off the "maybe spectrum?" hypothetical (this time). But being blunt is not the same as being cruel or purposefully hurtful, and I don't like this leap of "if someone says something hurtful perhaps they're on the spectrum." People on the spectrum aren't lacking in empathy and can tell (as Musicbiker's friend @61 did) when their blurting in attempt to convey information came across the wrong way. To amend the adage of "if you hear hoof beats, think horses, not zebras" I would like to say "if someone says something cruel and hurtful, think asshole, not spectrum." Especially in the case of a young man saying something awful about a young woman's body right after they had sex... while they're still in bed... while she's still naked and he's cuddling her. I think assholery is the far more likely situation here. But yes, I do know we like to fill in our LW's blanks with our own "perhaps this?" I just find this one particularly hurtful and unhelpful.

Some bias on my part: Recently a "friend" on social media (who I knew IRL a long time ago, who has always been a massive intellectual bully) has decided to self-diagnose with ASD, and is using that as an excuse to gloss over their past and present bullying behavior, in a very "shrugs, I'm on the spectrum, I can't help it if I hurt your feelings" way that makes me want to rage.

And wahoo and congrats to George for landing FIRDKT and lucky 69 this week! And welcome to the madhouse! I lurked the SL letter and comments board for nearly two years before finally jumping into the fray (like you, I was also seeking valuable relationship advice [and a happy distraction] when other online sources were no longer serving that purpose for me). Welcome and wahoo!

Curious @82, I agree xina's comment went way too far, and suggested a struck nerve to me.

Fantastic @83, there is explain, there is excuse, and there is understand. BODIES is trying to process this so she can move on, and it may be helpful to her to understand why this man said what he said. Otherwise, she may conclude the "why" of it is "because I am hideous," which is probably not true and definitely not helpful. If she's known this guy for five years and he's been a good enough friend that her instinct was to keep him as a friend after this debacle, she may want a better "why" than "because he's a psychopath," which clearly doesn't jibe with her previous impression of the guy. It may be nevertheless true, or there may be other explanations which she hasn't thought of, which is why it's not valueless for us to speculate on them. If she's reading, one of these alternative suggestions may strike a chord with her, which will help her understand why this awful thing happened, and that will help her decide whether to forgive and try to forget, versus recognise him as an abusive predator and prepare to recognise similar signs in future others.

BDF @ 73 - BODIES writes:

"My partner found out he didn't like my body when we were having sex for the first time and he told me right after."

While not 100% explicit, it sounds like this guy waited until just after his dick was no longer wet to be like, "yeah, actually your body is gross, though." That's some Grade-A asshole behavior right there.

Opal @78 - the length of their friendship jumped out at me too. Five years is a long time; for a 19 year old, that's a quarter of your lifetime. I don't blame her at all for wanting to remain friends. But yeah, she needs to let this guy know how much he hurt her, and kick him to the curb yesterday. There are better, more genuine friends out there.

BDF@85
"it's not valueless for us to speculate on them"

OK I agree. Though I just don't have time to join in. Or the patience. And I question whether we need to.

BODIES will hear "asshole", and if there's another explanation she knows stuff we don't know that could help her and us arrive at it. I wish we could hear her contribution.

Fantastic @86, oh sure, that's what it sounds like, the way she wrote it, and that would indeed be Grade-A asshole behaviour. But what if what actually happened was a scenario like CMD describes, which I found a plausible alternative, and what actually happened was that BODIES -asked him-, "so what went wrong?" and instead of making up a white lie, he told the truth? Still devastating for her to hear, but Grade-B asshole behaviour. The "not 100% explicit" is the key here. It also sounds like she had some previous insecurities, and insecure people aren't always the most reliable narrators. I'll never forget the time I was out clubbing with my gay best friend, who was insecure about his weight. Someone told him, "You have nice legs." He heard, "You have big legs." Is it possible Mr BODIES is just a Grade-A asshole who seduced someone he wasn't attracted to, just to insult her? Sure, this happens. Are there other possibilities? Yes, that's my only point.

BDF @88 - yes to a whole heaping helping of insecurity from BODIES. Her statement of "I wish someone had told me that having sex with someone isn't a guarantee that everything will always work out" is an almost mind-blowing level of Sweet Summer Child. She may very well be feeling devastated/rejected/insecure simply because having sex didn't "secure" or "guarantee" her a romantic relationship with this guy, regardless of what he may have said.

@ CMD #52 and BiDan #88: BODIES wrote "we were having sex for the first time and he told me right after." I think this clearly implies they had intercourse and asshole dropped the bomb on her after the act. In the absence of further specificity, i think we have to assume BODIES meant PIV. And her tone seems to indicate that everything went OK up to that point, because she was so taken aback by asshole's comment. I think she'd have mentioned it if he had been having ED or other issues during.

Ens @90, she also said she was "sexually open and generous" which could be interpreted as she gave him a blowjob, yes? The "he told me right after" also doesn't preclude his telling her because she asked him directly. Still an asshole move, but perhaps not a premeditated-for-five-years plan to destroy her ego. Especially since he still wants to be friends, he hasn't dropped her like a hot rock the minute he was able to accomplish his five-year goal of humiliating her. I agree it's more likely that they're using the hetero definition of sex, sure; young men don't need to be attracted to get it up, which is the hole in CMD's advice to feel for an erection. But this doesn't rule out his having been at least somewhat attracted to her while she was dressed. Or perhaps she was a pity fuck; perhaps she asked him to take her virginity, thinking that would make "everything work out," and he agreed. Other explanations besides extreme calculated misogyny continue to seem plausible to me.

@17 auntie griz: Sorry you had such bad experiences too. I've had some of my own and that's why her letter was triggering for me. Imagining how things would have been so different if I could have stood up for myself and hoping that things change for future generations of young women, so they can feel like the badass boss bitches that they have the potential to become instead of letting some d-bag put them down.

I would think she should try to get over this guy and his terribly unfortunate way of breaking up. She says that she cares for him and foresees remaining friends. As far as I know, no commenter has said anything about salvaging a friendship, and it seems likely to me that after a little reflection she will come to the view that she does not need a close ongoing relationship with someone who treated her so ineptly (at best) or vindictively (at worst) in her life. Moving on, she will surely do better to find someone really into her--whatever her body type. One's heart goes out to her, with her almost certainly entirely groundless concerns about the appearance of her genitals, and the supposition that difficulties with her first bf (he was perhaps badgering her for sex) would go away with her submitting.

My focus would be on encouraging her to move on, rather than trying to determine what variety of bad (clueless, selfish, malicious etc.) the guy was. This was a bad first experience for BODIES, but let's hope it doesn't turn out to be a defining one.

@79 BiDanFan: I think you nailed it on why a guy I knew in community college weirded out so much upon turning 40. He was closeted, and although he found me beautiful was sexually attracted to other men. Throw into the cocktail his doting widowed mother, siblings, and the Catholic Church demanding why he wasn't happily married with children already and there you have it---one big mess---basically because he was afraid to come out.

@82 curious2: I'm already clinking glasses that Rush Limbaugh is finally roasting in hell. I, too, will be happily celebrating Donald J. Trump's death. The sooner the better---the world will rejoice when he's finally gone.. We have a decorated U.S General, General Mark Miley, formerly with the Joint Chiefs of Staff, who has likened Trump to Adolf Hitler [The Seattle Times, July 15, 2021: Top Military Official Draws Parallels Between Trump / Hitler, page A7, Reis Thebault, The Washington Post.].

@92 girliegams: SO true! Sharing a big cyber hug, positrons, and VW beeps with you, BODIES, and all other women and adolescent girls entering their sexually active (or not) years who have been wrongly hurt and abused like this.

Who's salivating over scoring this week's Big Hunsky honors? Tick...tick...tick....

Another movie night for Griz: Award-winning actor/ director/ activist Forest Whitaker celebrates his 60th birthday, today. So in his honor, Griz will be viewing Good Morning, Vietnam (1987) after dinner, catching up onn folding clean laundry, and reviewing my latest Stephen King novel-based score.

BiDan@85~ “... Otherwise, she may conclude the "why" of it is "because I am hideous," which is probably not true...”

I had to chuckle at that phrase (which of course, is totally correct) but it made me think, “Well, she’s not discounting the possibility that the woman MAY in fact look like some sort of Ursula the Sea Witch kind of Disneyesque villain, better be safe and allow for that!”

...and now, on with the shew...” PS, you’re welcome, next commenter...

In my opinion, it doesn't matter WHY BODIES' erstwhile friend told her he "didn't like [her] body;" it matters THAT he told her that--while still naked, cuddling, post-sex (whatever that sex was comprised of). It doesn't matter whether or not he is on the spectrum or what specific sex acts occurred; it doesn't matter whether he was trying to "neg" her or if he's actually closeted or if he was pretending to be into her body for 5 whole years, only to reject it--and her--immediately after the first time he sees her naked, or if he was genuinely surprised and turned off by some hitherto unrevealed and unexpected aspect of her body.

The bottom line is that he took advantage of a moment of vulnerability (or "vuhnerability," as Dan would say) to inflict a wound: BODIES let herself be naked, both physically and emotionally, with him, and he repaid that trust by saying something so painful that she's in therapy about it (not a knock against therapy: I'm all for it, especially in matters having to do with self-esteem), and is writing to an advice columnist about it.

Many people have given her good advice, and I hope she gets to the point where she is more angry at him and less worried about her own appeal. But I know from my own experience and that of some of my friends whose stories I am privy to, that barbs like the one BODIES' "friend" hurled at her tend to go in deeply and be hard to remove completely. They're like poison-tipped arrows, and even if you pull them out, a bit of the tip breaks off inside you and the poison remains. There's less of it, and hopefully it evaporates or is diluted by your bloodstream over the years, but I don't think it ever completely disappears.

Which is why I think that the dude's actions/words would be unforgivable--to me.

l can understand why someone wouldn't want to toss out a friendship of 5 years' duration. If that's the lw's choice, I would hope that at the very least, she could tell him how much he hurt her. Still, I would argue to BODIES that in that moment, the guy revealed himself to be someone very different from who she thought he was, and that she's better off without the friendship of someone who could be so casually cruel to someone who has just given the gift of her trust to him, especially someone he's long considered a friend, and someone with whom he's just had some sort of sexual experience.

I tend to keep my friends and my exes. I'm still friends with people I met in kindergarten, and count 2 ex-boyfriends and my ex-husband among my closest circle of friends. But twice, men I'd been in love with, and shifted into a successful post-dating friendship with, did or said something so cold or so cutting, that all my affection stopped instantly and permanently. It's as if the cruelty of their words acted as a very sharp knife, completely severing any emotional attachments between us. Up until that moment, I would have thought that we'd remain friends forever, or that I'd miss them if we stopped communicating. But in fact, because the pain was so sharp and cut so deep, it turned out to be easy to never speak to either of them again, and I don't miss them whatsoever. These cuts were different than the old poison-tipped arrows that had punctured me in my youth: it's almost as though the wounds they inflicted were cauterized and healed cleanly. Maybe that's because, coming from people I really loved (as opposed to the guys I'd only recently met or started dating who leveled the injuries when I was younger), these cruel gestures were that much worse--and in fact, they almost knocked the wind out of me. They were so unambiguous that it was as if in those moments, the mask they'd been wearing was blown off and when I saw the pustules underneath, I didn't have any desire to be around those men anymore. I think it might be healthier and more self-affirming for BODIES if she cut all ties to this dude.

@100 on further reflection: I think that in my case, one reason that the injuries my two ex-boyfriends inflicted (long AFTER they became exes and had become good friends, by the way) didn't have the same self-esteem-damaging effect on me was that they were not insults about my body, but grossly unfair attacks which showed that we approach the world entirely differently. They were less personal, even if they were directed at my person (if that makes sense).

Also, I was much older. In fact, when I was 19, BODIES' age, a man who was trying to get into my pants insulted my body (was that negging? Did negging happen in the early 1980s?). So perhaps age confers some amount of self-preservation skills. But I'd hate to counsel BODIES to just wait 20 or 30 years, and she'll be stronger and more self-confident, and those blows won't land so deeply.

Ms Cute - Thank you for reinforcing that there are two Ls in vulnerable. I'm not sure whether that's one of Mr Savage's deliberate points of speaking Prole or not. You hear more young people than I; any oprinion?

@Mr. Ven, I've never heard anyone but Dan pronounce vulnerable without the first L.