Savage Love Aug 17, 2021 at 3:28 pm

Game Over

Joe Newton





Reading "VIBE, your gentleman callers are pulling on your dick with the best of intentions", just made my day. Thanks.


Good luck, MYBOD, with your GGG marital situation. Excellent spot on advice to MYBOD and to VIBE.
And thank you so much, Dan, for putting up a new column for this week. i was ready for it.

@1 WA-HOOOOOOOOOOOO to Griz!!!!! I shall gladly accept my FIRDT! honors for this week's Savage Love: Game Over and bask in the glory of leading this week's comment thread. By doing so, I, Grizelda, willingly decline from receiving any further numerical honors within this week's thread. :)


I feel bad for that wife. I wonder if it is a real letter. Did she really think there was a chance that Dan would respond with, "You must be GGG for life! You must continue to have threesomes! You haaaaaaaaaaave to!!!" Maybe she already anticipated his advice, but just really needed to hear/read someone say it.

"Is it ever ok to stop being GGG?"

This question would be so much more interesting if we were talking about something more reasonable. For example, what if one partner says, "I will no longer give you oral sex. I never enjoyed it and I just did it to please you, and I can no longer bring myself to do it."

I would think Dan would say something along the lines of, "Oral sex is really basic, and you really should do it if you are in a relationship. But, ultimately nobody has to do anything he or she doesn't want to do, so fine, don't give oral, but you are a real bummer."


I disagree; even "basics" don't have to be on the menu. Of course it's gonna be a bummer and def could make finding sexual partners more difficult. But no one should ever feel obligated to do any of the "basic" acts.


GRIZ! A great big WAHOOO, VW beeps, and a big congratulatory glass of red, red wine for your most deserved FIRKT honors!

"The guys from Grindr aren't pulling on your dick maliciously" was utterly hilarious. One of the better Dan Savage-isms in recent memory.


@6 fantastic_mrs_fox: Many heartfelt thanks! It's indeed, a rare treat for Griz to be FIRDT (firkt).
Big hugs, positrons, and VW beeps right back atcha! Red wine sounds good tonight. :)
I agree with you, too, that Dan's latest of greatest lines "The guys from Grindr aren't pulling on your dick maliciously" should definitely go down in the Savage Love Hall of Fame. :)



Are you responding to me? If so, it seems that we actually are on the same page.


Woohoo Griz congrats on being first! Bask in the after glow of the Firdt!

Holy crap, LW1 needs to get the hell away from that asshole.


I have to feel that MYBOD and her husband were doing 'Dominance Play' wrong. She says she 'want[s] [her] body' to feel her own again...--if anyone genuinely feels they have lost possession over their own body, have lost bodily and moral autonomy and self-control, in sex, rather than merely giving themselves over to the credible and powerful fantasy that they have lost control, it would seem to me this is not an enjoyable or consensual form of sex. Of course the fantasy of self-loss can be very persuasive; and many people play with and push the boundary, of actually-not-in-control/playing-at-having-given-up-control ... but, all the same, I think the boundary is a real one; and that kink is not about, for instance, opening yourself to violation. What it seems to me was going on was that MYBOD misread GGG as making herself entirely a tool, entirely passive, in the hands of her husband and Dom. It goes beyond her interpreting GGG as meaning her being obliged, in some way, to do things she didn't like, though it seems that was true of their sex life, too.

I think Dan should maybe row back on GGG, or clarify it so it doesn't mean in people's minds doing what you don't want.

I disagree with the comment that may have suggested that there are easy asks, like e.g. oral, that should be within the ambit of GGG, and tough asks like MFM for the F, which a game woman and partner can reasonable balk at. How common the sex act is, how 'normal' it is seen as being is not the criterion here. The criterion is only whether an act or scene can be consented to (the violation one), and whether a person does in fact consent to it.

MYBOD's letter is sobering. It gives the impression that violation, assault and rape are, as it were, ineluctable features of Dominance Play where Doms share subs sexually.


@10 Dashing: Many thanks for the FIRDT! (firkt) congratulations. Being that it is so highly competed for it is truly savory to score the honors. Red wine and dark chocolate tonight! :)
re MYBOD: I agree that LW1's husband of 26 years certainly sounds like a controlling, manipulative asshole, despite playing his kink card up front at the start of the relationship.
It is too bad that they had kids should she choose to leave him. Divorce with children caught in the middle can be particularly nasty--especially if the kids are still dependents under age 18.


Ditto Dan’s most excellent advice for MYBOD.


GGG should never be one-sided. One-sided GGG is more like being a doormat.

I'd suggest MYBOD consider whether her husband was generous about her own sexual / sensual pleasures, and if so, try to look for ongoing ways to help each other out.

People's bodies change, so maybe you need to explain to him what you enjoy now and how his generosity regarding that would help you feel more generous towards him.

I generally don't think polyamorous people have an obligation to help their partners find other partners, but sometimes you can help in small ways like giving feedback on their profile or helping them find a photographer to take some sexy profile pics.

Now, if MYBOD's husband has never been good, giving & game about the stuff that gets her going, then that's a much bigger issue.


Also, re this: "I was basically sexually assaulted ... I want my body to be mine."

If you haven't worked through those experiences with a kink-positive therapist or a support group of fellow submissives or some non-judgmental friends, I highly recommend doing so.


Dan: Just wondering why you changed "MFM threesomes" to "MMF threesomes" when replying to MYBOD. There is a difference. MYBOD used the term MFM threesomes, with the F, her, in the middle -- this means she's the one who's expected to be the focus of attention, to actively participate with two men. Which is a lot more work than an MMF threesome where she could at least at times sit back and watch the two M's interact with each other. MMF threesomes may be a compromise where the partnered M gets to be functionally bisexual while in an otherwise monogamous DS relationship; MFM threesomes are a kink which, if not driven by a happily voracious F (as is not the case here), requires a lot of GGG on her part to satisfy his fantasy. Which is the bigger ask may be a difference of opinion, but they are different asks, so I'm not sure why Dan has switched the letters around to change the meaning.

As for boundary violations, I am far less surprised than Dan that these happened more than once during the course of this couple's experiences. As a somewhat reluctant participant, of course MYBOD would have had boundaries that conflicted with her husband's, and their thirds', fantasies. It's tough enough to fend off one horny man, let alone two. If one boundary violation put everyone off group sex for life, there would be no group sex. Hell, there would be no sex. Moving on... [Tone advisory: raw subject. Please be kind.]

Great advice to Mr MYBOD! Thank you. Cis men everywhere: perimenopause is a thing, our sex drives DO decrease, you just have to roll with it and not act entitled to the same amount of sex you got when we were younger. And being pushy is not the way to get us hot. [Raw subject klaxon again.]


Guts @4, I have no reason to think it's not a real letter. Of course she wanted Dan, the king of GGG, to assure her she's not being unreasonable. Perhaps she wrote in just to get the last paragraph. Perhaps she did think Dan would suggest compromise, and is pleasantly surprised to read his endorsement of the compromise she already suggested. As for whether he'd have responded the same way to a smaller ask, such as oral sex, I think if that LW had offered the opportunity to outsource it, like MYBOD did, Dan would have responded the same way.

EricaP @14-@15, great advice.


My post @16 should have read, "MFM threesomes are a straight fantasy."


Wasn't one of the "rules" for being GGG that both partners accommodated each other? So if one had a kink and the other preferred vanilla sex, then sometimes Non-Kinky indulged the kink for the sake of the other, and sometimes Kinky engaged in vanilla for the same reason.

Here's what makes me think that MYBOD's husband is the asshole:
"He says he isn't interested in vanilla sex with me because he is “disappointed.” "

In other words, he has a reason for not doing anything he doesn't want even if the ask is something as simple as vanilla sex. And he's got it worked out that his "reason" is all that matters; her reasons for not doing what he asks are easily dismissed. How about if MYBOD said she wasn't indulging in the threesomes had nothing to do with feeling violated and were because she was "disappointed"? Would that be an explanation he'd agree with? Would that be enough for him to say "well, okay then!"

Here's the other statement that rang my "he's the asshole" alarm:
"When I told him to outsource his kink, he said, “Good luck finding that as a married man.”"

That is classic manipulative bullshit. She offers a reasonable compromise. He thinks that would be hard-- for him. Ergo, she has to do what he wants. He's not interested in solutions. He's interested in getting what he wants, from her, no negotiation allowed, no consideration for her, ever.

I'd counter "good luck finding that as a divorced man." If the husband was writing the letter, I'd ask him if his life would be better with MYBOD's insistence on vanilla sex from now on or without her.

That leads me to this for MYBOD. Who the hell cares who's being the asshole? If you're miserable with this guy, that's reason enough to leave him. Call it "incompatibility."


MYBOD's husband has ruined a good (for him) thing by not being GGG himself. He sounds like a manipulative asshole, withholding "vanilla" sex because he's "disappointed?" Cry me a river!

The scene is full of married people who's partners have outsourced the kink and, once they've gotten to know people and have established a good reputation, they do as well as anyone else. Manipulative assholes... not so much.

MYBOD should tell him she's outsourcing the vanilla sex... for herself... and he's not invited.


Congrats to Griz on being firdt! (I thought we were giving the early commenting firdt, secnod, etc. a break? But congrats just the same!)


To Dan: Even though it doesn't impact Dan's advice, MYBOD wrote MFM and not MMF, which connotes differing sexual, if you will, dynamics.


I agree with those who commented that MYBOD should consider working out her relationship issues which may or may not play into the sexual relationship issues that she and her husband have. Not being happy with and in a relationship, for whatever reason(s), can change our feelings about its sexual aspect. Being GGG can feel like a challenge if not a chore if faced having sex with a partner with whom you are on “the outs,” for whatever reason. Being perimenopausal can add even partial physical and emotional roadblocks to a sexual relationship, such as vaginal dryness, emotional volatility, etc. (Thankfully, there are ways to dealmwith these issues.) That her husband isn’t himself GGG (husband: it's my way or the highway) is quite telling.

Relationship counseling with a kink-positive therapist is where they should start. Working out their sex issues should be addressed as well but unless they work out their other problems, I fear that their sexuality differences/sex preference will just be just the straw that breaks this camel's (i.e., their marriage) back.


LW1's husband is like an asshole but if we give him the benefit of the doubt, this may be a more complex issue.

The Ms in a MFM threesome are not the same role, particularly when one M is partnered with the F. LW1's husband may get off on the concept of sharing his wife and may not be all that interested in being the bull who comes in and shares. That may be part of the reason he's disappointed. I think there's some evidence of that in her (confusing) letter when she talks about Dom/Sub play - he seems to get off on him deciding who she fucks and sharing her with others.

He's 100% wrong that it's hard for a married dude to be the outside M but he's not wrong that it would be hard to continue being the partnered, sharing M without his wife. He'd have to form at least some sort of relationship with a F who was willing to be shared and it likely wouldn't ever be the same as with his wife due to the non-legal sense of the relationship. LW1 may also not be comfortable with him having that relationship even if he could find it - him having a GF is different than him plowing the high school football coach's wife a couple times a month.

I think the advice comes down to the same: he's got to get over it and embrace the massive hall pass she's giving him. Sometimes you have to alter a kink and try something new. I'm sure there are partnered MF who are willing to let him be Dom and he might find that he likes it or is into something new.

As a side note, I think it's important to acknowledge that any opening of the relationship can go both ways. If she wants vanilla sex, she can certainly outsource that as well if he's not into it. It may not be great for their relationship to both be outsourcing sex and not sleeping with each other but marriage is not the same thing as sex and maybe that would work. And she seems GGG enough to let him describe his conquests to her during their sex or tell him about her Vanilla Side Boy (great band name!) to spice things up in a way they're both comfortable with. So maybe their sex life would re-emerge in some way down the road?


"But who knows? By this time next week, the way you like it could have a name and a pride flag and a bunch of online cis het allies ready to shout down anyone who isn’t convinced the slow-kiss-me-vibe-to-chill-music-touch-the-base-of-my-lubed-up-cock community needed a name and its own float in the pride parade."

Reading that made my whole year. Dan Savage FTW. Amazing.


I also had Bi's thought. There is all the difference in the world between MFM, where a Dom is stretching a female partner's boundaries--here a live-in partner's, a wife's boundaries--getting her to submit not only to his desires and attentions, but possibly also to another man's, and other kinds of threeway.

In power dynamics all-male threesomes are not like this, nor is any configuration where the men take a sexual interest in each other.

The difference, further, between MFM where you are the F's Dom and trainer, and MFM where you are the guest of another couple, perhaps as a bull, is large. This will be part of Mr MYBOD's thinking in supposing that it will be too hard for him to find something he likes, that she is his only potential source of hot threesomes. I think he just has to bite the lemon (as it were) and reconcile himself to having threesomes according to a very different dynamic, if he has them at all. I think, slightly unlike Fichu @19, that he can be legitimately disappointed, in the short term, that she's turning down explorations and new threeway experiences with him--but he had better get over this quickly if he's not to graduate into full-blown asshole.... He took his wife on an adventure, and she went with him very far from her starting-point, probably all the way to where he wanted ... now he is going on his own adventure in his 50s of (perhaps) finding a kinky community and becoming a proficient Dominant top of one of more cuckold or other couples. It is daunting and bracing and fun--and, more to the point, it is his fantasy life, his fantasy sex-life away from adult and parental and professional responsibilities, his function of that kind; he still has a marriage and a romantic connection and a partnership which has lasted him about half his adult life and which, one has to hope, he should want should last him the rest.

The thing that sticks out about the letter is still (what appears as) the lw's extreme and self-punitive interpretation of GGG. I would think that many female subs are very susceptible to this--that what's hot for them, what they think they should do, and what they conceive as good can elide or coalesce in disquieting ways. I just have to think that the boilerplate should be: 'feeling safe is more important than being GGG'.


@22. larrystone. Agree that she can feasibly and reasonably outsource the vanilla sex.


@24, Harriet, even in all male threesomes, being the third is, to me, extremely different from being part of the participating couple.

So different, in fact, that I don't even go there anymore. I will do threesomes, yes, but only with other singles. Couples can go jump in a lake.


Maybe the whole problem was that MYBOD's husband was vetting / selecting the dudes. If all the three-ways came with a heavy dose of "she's mine, and now she's going to bang this dude she has never met, doesn't have chemistry with, doesn't even know his real name" I'm not surprised things went sideways sometimes.

If the cuckoldry / her-banging-somebody-else is more important than the Dom/Sub dynamic that seems to have been a later add-on, perhaps there can be a more-playful, better-matched-returning-guest-star dynamic in future threesomes... if she's not ready for a full-on divorce.

Almost nobody has any sympathy for MYBOD. Perhaps straight-up jealousy: he got a lot of what he wanted sexually for a long time, and not everybody gets that. Perhaps because he's pouting about not getting what he wants anymore. But he was clear about what he wants, and if she's allowed to set the boundary that she doesn't want a certain kind of sex, I don't see why he's not allowed to set the boundary that he doesn't want a certain kind of sex. That just seems like basic fairness. Insert Dan's sentence about maybe this marriage is over.


larrystone007 @22 - great point that if he gives her more control over selecting "Vanilla Side Boy" and privacy for MYBOD and VSB as they get to know each other sexually, that may lead to sexy stories (with VSB's permission) or even fun MFM threesomes where she and VSB are getting as much out of it as he is.

The question is whether he can give up that control, or whether for him, the control is the whole point.

Now that she's mature and confident and uninterested in being controlled, she may no longer be compatible with a very controlling man. If that's the case, I'd warn her to be careful and get advice from people experienced in helping women extricate themselves safely. If a controlling man is going to turn violent, it will be when he sees he is finally losing control.


AdamWashington @27: "I don't see why he's not allowed to set the boundary that he doesn't want a certain kind of sex."

He is allowed to, yes. But generosity generates generosity, while pouting generates contempt.

Is he saying "I never enjoyed vanilla sex and only did it to please you?" Then he's not pouting, just being honest. They'll need to assess if they're still compatible.

Is he saying "I used to enjoy vanilla sex but as I age I find I don't want penetration anymore?" That's also valid; maybe he'd be up for more handjobs.

Or is he saying "I do like vanilla sex but right now I feel like punishing you"? That's pouting, and it's unlikely to get him very far.



Yeah, this letter is more likely to be real than not.

There is just so much which surprises me.

I am surprised that the husband can be so selfish. He got the sex he wanted for years, and now that is changing. Most men don't get the sex they want for years.

I am surprised that the wife is so game for his desire for threesomes. Most women would not.

I am surprised that she even agreed to them in the first place. I would speculate that a high percentage of women would dump the man the second he suggested a threesome with another man. Perhaps the husband sought this woman out because she was a young virgin who probably looked up to the older more experienced man as someone to lead her.

I am surprised that the wife could even consider that she might be the asshole in this situation.

It seems like in most of my male friends' lives, the women call the shots in the bedroom. I have 2 male friends in open marriages, at the insistence of their wives. The men don't like it, but just tolerate it. The men have very little chance of finding outside partners while the wives periodically hook up with other men. I have another friend who is unhappy that his gf of 3 years is asexual. The husband in this story has a good thing going on and doesn't realize it.


I thought Dan was too easy on the dude in MYBOD's letter. Sounds like he won the lottery in her but that wasn't good enough. Even with the Dom/sub element she has control over what she does and doesn't want to do and it things went too far she should have been able to call it. I feel terrible that she was GGG enough to go for this varsity kink and in the end is made out to be disappointing, I mean fuck that!

I like to do MMF threesomes (yes the order of the letters matters), and my gal does too, she gets a little guy variety, and she really gets off on me playing with other guys too. I like fooling around with other guys and I also like seeing her fuck someone else. win/win/win/win in my book. I, like MYBOD's husband, also get off (in my head) about that ownership aspect, but also the naughty girl aspect of her fucking someone else that SHE wants to fuck. Not quite a cuck thing, more just that she wants to do this sort of taboo thing enough to ask for it. But that mostly stays in my head and isn't spoken out loud.

But because it isn't spoken out loud it did make me think, what if she isn't as into this as I am? What if, like MYBOD, she's doing it for me. She doesn't actually ASK for it (although that would be the hottest thing ever to me), she seems enthusiastic, but I seem to be the catalyst in finding people (she always has approval). Maybe she just isn't the instigator type. Or maybe she isn't instigating so I don't get jealous or something. Maybe that is wishful (dickful?) thinking. I would say she can take it or leave it, she has fun, enjoys herself, but probably would be ok leaving it behind too. That makes me want to have a conversation with her about it just as a check in. I hope I'm being self aware enough to keep from damaging anything like in MYBOD's case. She would probably pat me on the head and say "don't worry about it, we cool" and that would be the end of it, but it seems worthy of a conversation at least.


@30 I don't get the GF who is asexual relationship at all, that dude is just an idiot. I get saying "I love camping but Lindsay is grossed out by bugs so I can camp less." But "This person will never like sex" is something that you know early (when they don't want to have sex) and not something you can get over. Just insanity.


Larry @22: "LW1's husband may get off on the concept of sharing his wife and may not be all that interested in being the bull who comes in and shares." Good point. It sounds like their relationship is essentially about D/s hotwifing and you can't hotwife without a wife. That still doesn't mean she's obligated, particularly as she's done it plenty of times and had some bad experiences. She's entitled to hang up her hat and if that means he doesn't get any more hotwifing, well, most guys with this kink never get any. How about a sex worker, could they afford that once in a while?

Adam @27: "Almost nobody has any sympathy for MYBOD." I believe that's a typo and you meant for Mr MYBOD? I might have had some sympathy for his no longer being able to get his kink needs met by the woman he loves, but he lost it with his immature, entitled attitude. The kids are grown, they are having other problems, and he expects her to continue to be his sex worker but not his lover. (There's no indication that he never liked vanilla sex and was only doing it to be GGG for her; even if so, withdrawing it as revenge rather than opening a negotiation seems petty and vindictive.) Might indeed be time for them to walk away. Then he can get his MFM on as a man who's married to someone else.

Guts @30, nothing here surprises me. Guy who's always gotten what he wants acts like a brat when suddenly he's told he can't have that anymore? Not surprising. Woman up for threesomes with another dude? Not surprising. (Out of curiosity, what percentage of women were you envisioning when you said "most"?) We don't know how many women this guy dated and dumped because they weren't into the idea. Quite a few women on this board have said they dig MFM threesomes. (I'd prefer MMF myself, but if both guys were hot, why not? Lots of women are adventurous and like variety.) I would speculate that a far higher percentage of women would say "no thanks, not my bag," and continue dating the guy than would either agree or, in very rare circumstances, dump him for even suggesting it. (Remember we are talking MFM, not MMF, meaning he's not asking her to participate while he sucks a guy's cock.) And I'm not at all surprised that a domineering man could guilt trip his partner to the point where she feels like the bad guy because she agreed to something then changed her mind. This sort of gaslighting is -extremely- common! This husband HAD a good thing going on, did realise it, and is trying every dirty trick in the book to not lose it.

It seems like you talk to your male friends about their sex lives. Do you talk to your female friends about theirs? My guess is that you would get similar stories.

Coolie @31, applause to you for having that conversation with your partner instead of just assuming. Hope the conversation goes well!


@31 Come on. If we've learned anything from the people writing in, you should definitely white knuckle it and never communicate.

I feel like the answer to LW2 could've been "Talk to your partners. They don't read minds." That and "DTMFA" could really answer 90% of the letters.


Guts @30, I mean you have two friends whose wives insisted on open relationships yet you're surprised there's at least one woman out there who was down for MFM threesomes? Eh?


Larry @32, you don't always know it early. A lot of asexuals try to have sexual relationships because they think that's the only way they'll ever get to have a relationship -- that sex is the price of admission. So perhaps they're a few years into the relationship when she (he, they) realises that this isn't a price worth paying, for them. And perhaps the partner isn't super keen on sex themself, or has low self esteem, or has fallen for the sunk costs fallacy, or is so otherwise happy with the relationship that they accept no sex as the price of admission, or they cheat. Or they feel they'll be the bad guy if they dump someone for not having sex with them, that this will make them a cruel, selfish asshole. Lots of explanations besides "just insanity."


Larry @32:

The guy who accepted the asexual girlfriend is very young, he just graduated from college. I can speculate on why he accepted an asexual girlfriend.

A) He wanted to have a relationship and she was who he got and he felt like he had to accept her asexuality. Perhaps he was hoping she would change.
B) Having a girlfriend at all has benefits. He can grow as a person, and he gets emotional support. Being able to tell people you have a gf confers status. A lot of guys have great difficulty getting any kind of gf, and he doesn't have to tell them that she is asexual.
C) It is possible that she is asexual, but still has occasional sex with him. Maybe she gives him blowjobs and handjobs. He might enjoy that but not enjoy knowing that she is not enjoying it.

This young guy has a lot of things going for him. He is funny, a good musician, and has an impressive job for a fresh graduate. Unfortunately, his physical appearance is a major liability. I hate to say it, but if he were in a room with 100 recent college graduate guys, he would probably be considered to the least attractive. When he said he had a gf for 3 years, I was surprised. My point in "B" makes a lot of sense.


MYBOD- You seem to have a few unrealistic ideas...
Your body is your own.
Only you can grant the authority to someone to tell you what you are "allowed" to do. Otherwise in America you're allowed to do anything legal, and refusing any sort of sex and getting divorced are legal.
No one is actually an asshole, we are all just people, who do good things and bag things, helpful and hurtful, effective and ineffective. Calling someone an "asshole" is just another way of expressing disapproval of their actions.. And who cares about some stranger's disapproval?

"I want to be done being kinky"
Do you mean that you don't feel submissive toward your husband anymore? That you now disapprove of bdsm? That you are unwilling to play with kink until you are strongly assured that your most important boundaries will be shown a lot of respect? Do you want to be seduced into a mutually satisfying sex life with your husband, or are you more interested in finding a vanilla partner?

Is it ever ok to stop being good? Is it ever ok to stop being giving? Is it ever ok to stop being game? Is it ever ok to give up? If that's what you really want.. I don't think it's OK to give up on dreams or on life by I try to respect others' differences..

VIIBE- It's a good reminder that guys have trouble speaking up about what they want sexually sometimes too.
"Is there a quicker way to describe this?"
Rather than verbalizing, you could guide his hand. Ask about his lube or bust out your own.
"do I need to send a paragraph to all the tricks I message?"
Tricks? If you want casual sex, work on being assertive.. if you want more of a connection, emphasize mutual attraction and expect to try to please each other.


@21 SNJ-RN: I have returned to the Lucky Numbers game, and was pleasantly surprised to be able to land on FIRDT! this week. A few weeks back, I felt that the Lucky Numbers game had lost its appeal, and that most commenters had grown tired of it. The response to keep it going was that the majority of commenters still want to participate (even the grudging trolls). SO it is here to stay.

One question, SNJ-RN, Dan, and everybody: what do you think about SECNOD, and THIRDT! honors still being offered in the Lucky Numbers game? If this is the case, I would happily award saxfanatic @2 the SECNOD honors this week, and gutsgutsforlife @4 the THIRDT! honors (as I already scored FIRDT!). :)

@23 queensbee re VIBE: Agreed and seconded. Dan FTW!


So it is official:
@2 saxfanatic: WA-HOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!! Congratulations for being among the first three commenters in this week's Savage Love: Game Over comment thread! Bask in the glory of SECNOD honors and revel in the glow.:)

@4 gutsgutsforlife: WA-HOOOOOOOOOO!!!!! Congratulations! Although your comment was fourth in line, as I scored FIRDT! honors, you are awarded the THIRDT! honors for this week. Savor the accolades and bask in the glow. :)

And for those of you who are bummed by not scoring among the first three Lucky Numbers, FIRDT!, SECNOD (cleverly named by nocutename), and THIRDT there are plenty more numeric awards, starting with the luscious Lucky @69 honors. :)


Phi @38, good catch that VIBE's references to the men he's having sex with as "tricks" may mean that neither of them is treating the other with the respect and consideration he wants. VIBE, yes, in-relationship sex is much better than hookup sex for building a rapport with someone and feeling comfortable enough with them to describe what you like in bed. Sounds like a boyfriend would be more interested than a "trick" to romantically making out to sexy music, too. Sounds like your strategy of getting over your ex by getting under randoms isn't working all that well for you. Take time for you perhaps, touch your own dick the way you want it touched, and make out with dudes you meet in real life before jumping into bed with them. God, I sound like my mother.


Since VIBE refers to the gentlemen pulling on his dick as “tricks,” maybe the code word he’s looking for is “BFE.” If “BFE” might be interpreted to be code for “bareback,” specify “safe, romantic BFE.”


Such great input from the commentariat today!

RE GGG, I’ve always interpreted “game” to mean “looking for ways to say Yes.” Sometimes you have to be creative; sometimes you meet someone’s offer with a counteroffer; sometimes you acknowledge that despite your best efforts, you can’t find a way. That’s still “game” as long as you’re looking for ways to say Yes and not excuses to say No. Crucially, GGG is always reciprocal. It doesn’t mean that women are obligated to do whatever a man wants.

Mr MYBOD’s version of an MFM sounds utterly unappealing to me but more importantly, his version of D/s sounds uncreative, unempathetic and irresponsible. She’s tried to find ways to say Yes but can’t any more.

You know how people talk about relationships being like bank accounts: you have to deposit before you can withdraw, but you need five deposits to earn a withdrawal?

I think MYBOD is saying that the bank account is empty. Making that observation isn’t being an asshole. Insisting on a moral right to make withdrawals on an empty account is shortsighted.

MYBOD may have changed. Menopause is often a time when women start focussing more on what they want and less on whatever everyone else wants. Her husband may be having trouble adapting to the change. Individual therapy for MYBOD might help her develop her assertiveness and focus more on what she wants than what she doesn’t.


Answer to VIBE superb. Dan has not lost his touch, nor his ever-so-acid sense of humour. Brilliant!


MYBOD do what makes you happy, and tell it your husband straight - you ain't doing no more threesomes. If he subsequently chooses to decline your offer of other kinds of sex, and you feel neglected, I'd say you're perfectly entitled to look elsewhere for someone more appreciative. It's amazing how wonderful it can feel when you meet somebody that treats you right, and wouldn't dream of forcing you into doing stuff you don't want to do.


Alison @43, always good to see you!
"I’ve always interpreted “game” to mean ... looking for ways to say Yes and not excuses to say No." That's a great way of looking at it.
"You know how people talk about relationships being like bank accounts: you have to deposit before you can withdraw, but you need five deposits to earn a withdrawal?" No, I don't know. Never heard that one before. I have thought of relationships as balance sheets -- stay in the relationship as long as the credits exceed the debits, which seems similar. It sounds as if Mr MYBOD has gone way into the red, either way.


@26. Cocky. Yes, it's different, but there can still be different dynamics (within M&MM--?). There can be the dynamic of the Dom giving his sub to another Dominant guy or at least top in a gay context. Then there can be the dynamic of a subby third letting a couple have their way with him--perhaps at the instigation of one of them, but also perhaps without either being the dominant figure or guy leading the fucking.

I've had a lot of threesomes, and the one kind I haven't experienced and would think sui generis is the MFM where the F is 'owned' by the first 'M'. I've guested for both het and gay male couples, and the pressure, expectation and (some would say) the sexiness has not been ramped up on the passivity 'in play' of the sub as it is in the scene described in the letter.

I've said before that I don't actually like threesomes with my current partner--an impressive older guy who likes twinks, and who enjoys the company and has the eroticised respect of a lot of younger guys in his work or public life. They tend to take the form of his showing me off to them, them off to me and encouraging the younger guys to enjoy me, before he does so more manfully and charismatically.


@Harriet, you are not saying what you don't like about those threesomes, but - like in all questions of taste - there does not have to be a reason. I am sorry that you seem to feel you have to participate.

From an ethical point of view, though, I would suggest not pulling thirds into a dynamic where one of you is less than enthusiastic. Just speaking from experience, that is a very uncomfortable and un-sexy situation for a third to be in, and it is probably about 50% of why I don't have threesomes with couples anymore.


Just to apply this point to MYBOD. Yes, your body is your body, but I would also go on to say it is unethical towards the second M to pull him into your dynamic.

I think it is problematic that the feelings of the third never ever get any consideration in these discussions.


@30, gutsguts: "Most men don't get the sex they want for years."

Meaning they should just be happy with breadcrumbs? A man who gets a little more satisfaction than most should just be grateful?

I think the same remark can be made for women. It's a tragedy for both sexes, but both ways are almost always used adversarially towards men. If the woman is unsatisfied, it is the fault of the man. If the man is unsatisfied, he is in the wrong.


BiDanFan @46,

Maybe there are better analogies for the 5:1 rule?

• Dance partners. Someone who stomps on your foot for each time they swing you ‘round is not a good dance partner. But if for every unpleasant dance number with sore toes you get five thrilling ones, you’re probably willing to take the risk.

• Restaurants. If you go to to a groovy experimental restaurant and a full half of the meals they offer you are awful, you won’t be a customer long. If you get five fascinating and delicious discoveries for every fascinating but inedible discovery, there’s a good chance you’ll keep going back.

In a relationship, if you get an insult for every compliment it’s soul-destroying. If you get five compliments for each snarky remark you could very live with that.


So many great comments today! Not sure I have much to add but thought it might be worth noting that if MYBOD wasn't enjoying the MFM threesomes she and Mr. MYBOD were having at least some of that responsibility is on her: I used to play w/ a MF couple who sound somewhat similar- the M liked to tell his girlfriend and I (a Cis het male) what to do: when she didn't like his instructions, she always ignored them, and since I was only having sex with her, I always follower her lead. If, on the other hand, she complied, I did, too, as the guest (although I would not have had his instructions been anything that I didn't want to do). So I guess I'm agreeing w/ the 'relationships are a balance sheet/bank account' and 'GGG means looking for ways to say yes' folks - it's a team sport, and you're both responsible for playing it in such a way that you both enjoy it. If one of you is selfish, the other needs to call them on that in real time

I also think that Dan's point about MYBOD still being GGG, but in a different way, is bang-on: if she doesn't want to do X any more, even though X was a regular part of their sex life for years, that's OK as long as she's also fine w/ Mr. MYBOD getting X elsewhere. I think that's more true the more extreme X is, w/ D/s, threesomes, anal and the like being 'more extreme' and blowjobs, PIV sex, and cuddling being 'less', but again it's something they both should try and work out together, not a case of 'Hey, Mr. MYBOD was lucky enough to have a fulfilling sex life for many years, he should just suck it up and accept that most men don't and now he's most men.'


RationalHuman @52,

You’re right, consent in a D/s relationship is always subject to ongoing negotiation. But if power imbalance is the kink, how does that work? It’s not at all obvious to the uninitiated.

One way is for the sub to be plugged into a social network with lots of happy, assertive subs who can be a resource so that they have the knowledge and confidence to negotiate within their dynamic.

Another way is for an experienced, ethical dom to take responsibility.

Sometimes I’ll play with a perfectionist sub who has no idea how to combine self-advocacy with submission, is afraid of being a terrible do-me sub who tops from the bottom, but is also afraid of being hurt. So I lay it out a little bit like this:

“I am your domme [or at least for the purposes of this scene]. I require absolute obedience and honesty. If I ask you how you’re doing, I expect truthfulness. If you’re not doing okay or you aren’t happy or you aren’t safe, you must tell me when I ask. If I ask you what would make you happy, you have to tell me. I’m the boss so I get to decide what to do with that information. Don’t second-guess me. Don’t try to manipulate me by withholding information.”

And then… I ask. I notice. I pay attention. When someone’s subbing to me, I take responsibility to make sure they have a good time. Or at the very least, that they aren’t hurt or harmed.

Some dim-doms think that D/s is easier than an egalitarian relationship because the D doesn’t have to take the s’s needs or wants into account. That’s not how it works. It sounds like Mr MYBOD might be one of these dim-doms and isn’t leaving space for his wife’s wants and needs.


Griz @39
The numbers game is cool but, IMO, whomever is awarded the coveted ranks of Firdt, Secnod, and Thirdt should type their comment within that same comment field in which their declaration was made. IOW, declare your well deserved status but write your comment within that same field rather than saving it, closing it, and writing the comment in a new comment field, which skews the proper bestowing of the subordinate declaration of much coveted rank. 😉


@54 SNJ-RN: I respectfully disagree. Anyone who posts in comment @1, @2, @3, or otherwise is legit, unless having scored a previous numerical award for that same week's Savage Love column comment thread (i.e.: by hitting FIRDT. one cannot also claim the Lucky @69 within that week's comments, too. Should someone happen to land on another lucky number, the numeric honors by default go to the next commenter.) I have honored plenty of FIRDT! recipients like myself this week simply posting firkt, FIRDT! or their screen name (i.e.: Griz?). All is fair in Savage Love.
Besides, SNJ-RN---you and other commenters are in still the running for the luscious Lucky @69 and beyond. Happy commenting and good luck!

Celebrating the belated celebrity birthday of Robert Redford, who turned 85 on August 18th, Griz enjoyed Ordinary People (1980 Best Director Oscar for Redford), and The Natural (1984). Griz was equipped with red wine and gluten free tiramisu with organic berries..
Play ball!


re @55: It never ceases to amaze me how often my comments are typo-free and paragraphs better spatially aligned after I have consumed red, red wine. Maybe I truly am getting better with age.


“Well ya see, Norm, it’s like this… A herd of buffalo can only move as fast as the slowest buffalo. And when the herd is hunted, it is the slowest and weakest ones at the back that are killed first. This natural selection is good for the herd as a whole, because the general speed and health of the whole group keeps improving by the regular killing of the weakest members.In much the same way, the human brain can only operate as fast as the slowest brain cells. Excessive intake of alcohol, as we know, kills brain cells. But naturally it attacks the slowest and weakest brain cells first. In this way, regular consumption of beer eliminates the weaker brain cells, making the brain a faster and more efficient machine. That’s why you always feel smarter after a few beers.”
-Cliff Clavin


Great comments this week, and great to see the return of some folks who've been MIA for a while (hi Alison! Hi cbu!). And thanks to those who are kinkier than I for pointing out the important difference in MFM and MMF (was this a typo on Dan's part?).

In instances like MYBOD's problem, I can't help but wish to be a fly on the wall during a couple's conversation. Did she explain to her husband that "she wants her body to be hers"? That she feels she has been violated and assaulted during some of these MFM encounters? That the natural changes going on in her body are making her feel less hot under the collar? Or did she just say "I'm tired of being kinky and GGG." She's 100% entitled to pull the plug on this dynamic that is no longer working for her (if it ever worked for her), but sometimes I can't help but wonder if LWs are less able to get their points across IRL to their partners than they are in letter format.

That being said, holy shit, Mr. MYBOD sounds like a tremendous entitled asshole. It sounds like he's been treating the LW like a toy that he can possess and share and treat however the heck he wants, and now that his "toy" is speaking up for herself, her desires and expressing some boundaries, his reaction is to ice her out. WOW. He's acting with all the maturity of a seventh grader who won't talk to her BFF because she had the audacity to wear the same outfit to the school dance. He can be disappointed - there are going to be instances in any LTR where we are disappointed in our partner(s) (because humans), but this doesn't sound like an "I am having a hard time with intimacy right now" situation. It sounds like he is straight up * refusing * the absolute most bare minimum expectation of GGG partnered sex because the LW is no longer up for indulging his varsity level kink (that put the bulk of the work and vulnerability onto her). What a pouty, immature shit. He's lucky MYBOD still wants to fuck him at all if this is what he's like.

MYBOD says they did the MFM thing "off and on" for two decades, and I wonder what their "off" periods looked like. Did he whine and pout? Were they able to convert the kink into fun sexy talk? Use sex toys to somewhat simulate a threesome? Was he more open to his kink taking a back seat when their kids were younger, thinking that once they'd grown and flown the coop that he and the LW would be having crazy kinky threesomes non-stop (and could this be part of the reason he's so butthurt, because his expectation isn't going to be realized)?

Also, crying out loud, they've been married a quarter of a century. Sex lives and drives fluctuate. Bodies change. Mr. MYBOD is being incredibly unrealistic and insensitive. I have a really hard time believing there hasn't been at least some sexual dry spells during their many years together. And if there haven't been, then fuck, no wonder MYBOD is done. It's a shame - if Mr. MYBOD had been a more considerate kinkster and husband, to do what he could to not make his wife feel * used up * and violated to the point where she doesn't even feel like her body is her own any more (ffs!!!), he might have been able to keep the MFM gravy train rolling.


In response to the "most men spend years not having the sex they want," I'd reply that most partnered women spend years having, at least some of the time, sex they don't particularly want. So there's that.


Griz @55 Perhaps you misunderstood me (I am not always clear), we actually agree!


@ Fox 58: I too wondered about the historical trajectory of MYBOD’s relationship with her hubby’s kink. It seems clear that he was the initiator back in the day, and that she went along with it for some time. Was she into it at first? Or was she some species of “poly under duress” as Dan sometimes puts it? Did her reticence emerge with the boundary violations? With his increasing interest in dominance? Or with her own increasing maturity and awareness of likes/dislikes (since she says she was a virgin when they got together).

Whatever the case, you’re right: They’ve gone through periods in the past in which they’ve taken a break from his kink, and that history should provide precedent for changing their relationship. Too bad hubby can’t see that.


Ens @61, MYBOD says "I was young and a virgin and up for anything then," which indicates to me that at first she was an enthusiastic participant. (Not all virgins are prudes -- many can't wait to make up for lost time!) It sounds like she was soured by some of the experiences she had, and/or that she realised that certain things were sexier in her own head than in reality. Or perhaps she enjoyed the MFMs she had prior to this element of his "owning and sharing" her being thrown into the mix. Like, when it was about what she wanted to do with two guys, it was fun; when it was about her being her husband's property and ordered to service other men, not so much. Perhaps if Mr MYBOD could divorce this element of D/s from things, MYBOD might be into the idea of vanilla threesomes (on -her- schedule). However, given his attitude along with the other problems she alludes to, she might be better off divorcing him.


@BiDan 62: All good points that make sense to me -- it clearly seems to be an accumulation of factors that caused MYBOD to reconsider things. I was also curious about the fact that she connected the loss of interest in threesomes to a decline in her overall libido, but that she still is interested in vanilla sex. So it seems that her the libido loss might be specific to the particular way hubby wants sex -- a loss of kink libido but not vanilla libido? Or, as you imply, it might just be that the shitty way her husband is behaving has taken a "wild" thing that she used to like occasionally and turned it into an aversion.


@62 SNJ-RN: Thank you for the clarification. Sadly, I seem to be misunderstanding a number of people lately. I'm glad we agree. :)

BTW, the luscious Lucky @69 Award is coming up soon. Good lick (pun intended), everyone! Tick...tick...tick....


@57 DonnyKlicious: You wanna go where everybody knows your name........


Savage Love: Where everybody knows your screenname...


BiDan@66~ Ha! Perfect!


Does anyone have anything to say about the "kink monster" phenomenon? I know there have been quite a few SL letters about this issue, wherein one partner's kink begins to override the desires and preferences of the other's. Something that starts out as a "fun once-in-a-while" kink (especially one that involves a lot of work/skill/stamina/scene-setting/vulnerability of the non- or less-kinky party) that morphs into "this is the only way I can receive sexual gratification and no I can't possibly be bothered to sexually gratify you, partner, in a context that does not involve my kink." This phenomenon wherein, ironically, the person whose preferences arguably require more GGG-ness of their partner cannot be bothered to be GGG themselves (like Mr. MYBOD's refusal to have vanilla sex with his wife of 26 years). Thoughts/feelings/opinions, anyone?


FMF @68, I think it reflects a kind of codependence, where the "kink monster" (good term!) feels confident that the GGG partner needs their dynamic and isn't going to leave. So the KM feels free to demand more and more from the GGG partner, each time getting confirmation that GGG isn't going to leave.

My advice for the GGG partner would be standard advice for getting unstuck from codependence, like learning to identify your own preferences and aversions, and learning how to say no and stick to it. The GGG partner also has to be willing to accept the risk that the relationship ends, now that they're not playing their established role as doormat. Trying to shift a dynamic can be very destabilizing; one has to be willing to embrace the possibility of change.


That said, I do think that some Kink Monsters would be happy to have their partner express more active desire (even for kinks the KM doesn't share), rather than just reacting passively to the KM's initiatives. Shaking things up can help a relationship grow into something better, if it doesn't end it.


fantastic_mrs_fox @68,

Data-free speculation follows.

You point out that the kink monster grows stronger over time. This couple are in their fifties, and I think that’s not unusual. So… possibly an aging brain element? Less flexibility, less inhibition, perhaps less empathy, perhaps more fear?

Many men with kinks or fetishes are extremely conflicted. I suspect that many of them use alcohol to help manage their angst, which might nudge a brain to age a little bit faster.

There’s the midlife crisis thing. Lots of straight married men feel like they sacrificed their youth to do what they were supposed to do, settling down and raising children. At a certain point mortality starts to become more salient and they realize that this is their last chance to have things their way. Unchaining the kink monster might feel very righteous.

(Disclosure: I’m 57.)


Erica P wins the luscious @69! Woohoo!


@69 Erica P: WA-HOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!! Congratulations on scoring this week's hotly envied luscious Lucky @69 Award honors! Bask in your delicious glory and savor your newfound numeric honors. :)


@71 Allison Cummins: (Disclosure: I'm 57.) We're the same age.


@48. Cocky. Well, the main thing I don't like about the threesomes (from which I've largely withdrawn) is that there's too much thinking to do. A lot of the pleasure of sex for me is in release, letting go. I can do that with my partner, but less so with the thirds he finds--I have to be too conscious of what they might want, especially how much initiation or being active they'd like from me, and which gender (if any) they see me.

Letting go, not-thinking, requires a lot of thinking and negotiation and storyboarding beforehand. For someone like the lw, it would seem to be important for her to say to herself that being subby is a role she plays--it's a part, a kink. This is a simplification (of course there are things like TPE and patterns of Dominance and subjection in marriage), but it's the right emphasis to make for the sake of her mental health.


fantastic_mrs_fox @68 bis,

Also, the wolf you feed/ you are what you eat. Kink monsters fed primarily with porn vs hot live action may grow up quite differently,


MYBOD's story sounds like the story of a lot of women. She pushed her boundaries for the sake of pleasing a man. She was made to feel as if her wants and even basic safety were less important than her husband's wants. Since her husband wanted to take on the dominant role, he was responsible for making sure that she was ALWAYS safe. If her consent was violated more than once, I don't know what the heck he was doing.If it was one time, and he intervened, and made sure it never happened again, that would be one thing. But it happened on multiple occasions, I'm really concerned.

MYBOD, your body is yours. While your husband may not owe you vanilla sex, he does owe you kindness. He owes you an interest in your well being. He owes you not whining that he's "disappointed" that your desires have changed. Your desires are allowed to change!!

Your body is yours. You never have to submit to anybody you don't want to, and you definitely don't have to submit to somebody who doesn't prioritize your emotional and physical safety.

I suggest you propose this: Offer your husband FMF threesomes, or MMF threesomes, where YOU get to pimp HIM out to men and women who will definitely fuck him in the ass, not for his pleasure, but for theirs. If he is GGG, if he's enthusiastically willing to go along with this, put a collar on his neck, and present his ass to be used by the people you select, then good for him, and I might suggest you consider giving his kink an occasional go. If he balks at the prospect, well then, remind him that he should be grateful that you went through all this for him at all.


@75, Harriet, that sounds exhausting and not fun. I have had good and bad threesomes as part of couples.

With one partner, what made them good was that we felt very secure and both focused intensely on the third. Why would we waste time by focusing on each other, something we could do every day all day? It made the third feel special and it is only being a good host. Fully focusing on the third also annihilated all that "thinking to do" and reduces self-consciousness. Choose a versatile and slutty third with two holes and a dick and nobody in the picture needs to feel excluded or be a wallflower. Just go for whichever port is free and everyone is happy ;P

But if you are not sure about how you want to present, how can you expect a stranger to divine it? That's a big burden to put on a stranger and probably a boner killer for many.

Another big burden on thirds is putting them in a position where they have to make a Solomon's choice about whom to pay attention to. Just be all over him, both of you. If he's not into that, he shouldn't have come in the first place and should leave anyway.

With another FWB partner, thirds and groups were always were big fails. This is a guy who is extremely sexually open and desirable, has group sex practically every day, didn't even want to be more than FWBs, but yet every time we had a third, afterwards I had to weather his resentment for days to weeks over nonsense. He couldn't stand my paying or entertaining temporary attention to or from a third, and instead of just doing the normal thing of pushing his beautiful dick (ass) into (onto) a free hole (dick), he went into sulks. He would never clarify if he was jealous of me or the thirds, never admitted to being unreasonable, and his bad attitude was unhealthy for me and the poor thirds.


Re. MYBOD, threeways are no different from any event two people organize at their house, such as a dinner party.

It is incumbent upon both hosts to orchestrate the event and ensure everyone is comfortable. It sounds as if MYBOD didn't do her part in the past, electing to just be passive, so I don't think she gets to complain about that now.

Also, let's keep a sense of perspective. I have had bad dinner parties. I have also gone along with sex I didn't really want or enjoy to put others at ease in certain situations. It is just a way to use your body for communication and doesn't mean you give up your autonomy. The dinner parties were overall worse than the unwanted sex, and only this particular culture of sex panic and victimhood identity would necessarily put the latter over the former.


@cbu 79:

You're right, cbu. Sexual assault, schmexual assault. At least MYBOD didn't have to endure a bad dinner party. That's the real horror!



Thank you, Ens @80! I don't think MYBOD "elected" to have her boundaries violated! I don't think a former virgin should be expected to be an expert on group sex dynamics, and absolutely she gets to complain if two men ganged up on her and coerced her to do things she didn't want to do. Wow. Cocky, the dynamics of group sex are very different when people of more than one gender are involved. MYBOD -did- give up her autonomy, and does not need a lecture from a gay man on what she did wrong.


"MYBOD didn't do her part in the past, electing to just be passive, so I don't think she gets to complain about that now."

Cocky it seems (I hope that) you completely forgot the letter.

First, she doesn't get to 'complain' about being sexually assaulted?

And remember that she is going along with her husband's dominance "play" of owning her. That gives her asshole husband responsibility to not permit his role-playing imaginary 'property' to be violated. How does that sound like acceptable Domming to you? Do you not see how playing her assigned role made complicated her situation?


Maybe I'm not reading dans response carefully enough but just why is ggg only about kink? She wants vanilla sex with her husband, he's not being ggg in denying it. She says he can link elsewhere but why this focus on her ggg and not his?


@BDF, @curious, yes, women are just powerless little flowers and always need there to be strict rules and regulations for their protection wherever they go and whatever they do, right?

Let's just keep believing she had no autonomy to say stop, push them away, leave the room, kick them in the balls, whatever... Because of course only men have autonomy and are responsible for their actions and inactions.

I may be same-sex but you are not the ones to dismiss that I have been in situations like hers. I could frame them as assault on me and assume the victim mentality, or I could frame them as decisions, or more accurately, lack of decisions on my part that were mistakes but were mine to make, accept that, and remain my own boss in my head. Which do you think is healthier?




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