Savage Love Nov 2, 2021 at 12:06 pm

Female Trouble




Not partaking in idiotic comment number ranking game.


Then why post that post? Looks like a first to you from where I'm reading ;)


@1: How to say I'm in desperate need of a wank without saying I'm a in desperate need of a wank.


FAVE: "gays won the LGBT rights fight." What planet are you on? "I was forced to hunt for proof." No you weren’t. "I like feeling superior." You’re not superior. It's hard to believe you're even a Savage Love reader. 🤮

LIMP: Did the man you’re dating offer an upside for you? More cunnilingus, for example? Unless your bush looks like Catweasel's beard, there ought to be a quid pro quo.

PADD: As a practising Domly Dom, I had to think about your letter. But I came up with a scene for you! Your Dom as a tantrum-throwing two year old, and you obediently changing his diaper.

SINGLE: You need to figure out how to meet men, whether they be single, or married but arid, without being stressed out by it. If you don’t like stress, and you like the idea of a married FWB, you could join a polyamory meetup. Ethical non-monogamy tends to be less fraught, and women are in short supply.


Disqus comments are up on the site, but not here on The Stranger. The announcement about Disqus appeared here last week, but not there.

As you were!


@1 MrBungle: Since you really don't want the highly coveted numeric honors, I'd be happy to give it to @2 toddrew instead. Agreed with toddrew @2: If you didn't want the numeric honors why were you in such a hurry to post FIRDT?

@2 toddrew: WA-HOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!! Congratulations toddrew!! Because MrBungle @1 has opted out of participating in the Lucky Numbers Game, by default YOU are named FIRDT!!!! Savor your newfound riche and bask in your envied Savage Love numeric glory. :)

@3 fubar: As MrBungle @1 has opted out of playing, WA-HOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!! Congratulations on scoring this week's SECNOD honors! Savor this glory as long as the Lucky Numbers Game is still going before DISQUS takes over the comment threads. :)

Griz might not be posting in the comment threads if DISQUS proves too technically challenging and the "terms of agreement" are undoable.

Big hugs, love, and great thanks to Dan the Man, all you regular commenters and wonderful new ones. I hope we can continue to communicate online.


@6: WA-HOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!! I guess that makes me THIRDT! :D


FAVE: I do not believe this is a sincere letter. Of course Dan would respond the way he did. Did she think he would say, "You go girl!"

SINGLE: I wonder what area she lives in and why she thinks that in her location "online meetups are fleeting and scary." What areas does she believe have better online possibilities? She seems really clueless. What kind of advice does she want? Does she think Dan will say, "Yes, I will take your word for it that your area presents weird, fleeting, and scary online meetups. I am sure it is the worst." She will have to put herself out there. She admits to not being that appealing, but it shoudn't be that hard for a woman to find herself a once a week fuck buddy who at least somewhat cares about her, or will at least pretend to care. Dan's advice to look for a married man in a sexless marriage might be the best. As truly single men might be likely to want to get serious, which I am unsure if SINGLE is interested in that.


Yay! The comments section remains unchanged, and SavageLUBE should still be working. The link for those who'd like to install it:
SavageLUBE is a user-created plugin offering several enhancements, such as showing usernames at the top of comments, allowing easy links to comments by typing @number, and allowing users to block, mute or highlight other users.

LIMP: Maybe ask him why he wants you to shave or trim your pubes? Maybe he loves eating pussy and there's a big reward in it for you. Or maybe this is a fetish of his. That said, asking once should have been enough, presuming you gave him a straight answer. If you didn't, asking twice should have sent the message that you like your pubes the way they are. Unless you like cunnilingus more in which case, like Dan says, why not give it a try? Trimming is easy and painless. Another question is how much manscaping does HE do? If he's nagging to the point of shaming and does nothing to make -your- oral sex experience less hairy, may be time to show him the door.

Big ugh to Dan's final words of advice to SINGLE. Why didn't he point out that there are a lot of partnered, ETHICALLY non-monogamous men out there? If SINGLE's happy with her life, sure, it would be great to have a partner she could have fun with and then send home. But why should it be someone she has to sneak around with? Why lose her self-respect and risk getting caught? She will be the one blamed if an affair ruins an otherwise "loving, low-conflict" marriage. SINGLE, "find some married guy to cheat with" is terrible advice. Find some poly guy to have a secondary relationship with, or find some single guy who's equally content with his singledom, or find some single or ethically non-monogamous guy who lives out of town and whom you could visit every few weeks or months and then send home.

One tip for SINGLE would be to improve her fitness. Regardless of size, being fitter, stronger and healthier will boost her confidence. If she's happier with her body, she'll broadcast that to potential FWBs. And the gym, or a mixed sports team or cycling/walking club, could be a good place to meet men, bonus.


Fubar @3: BOOM! Fubar wins this round. Glad we agree re: LIMP and SINGLE. Also agree that FAVE should be nominated for Savage Love Asshole of the Year.


SL Asshole of the Year??
Nahhh..not harsh enough for someone like that.
More like Steaming Pile of Cunt of the Year.


@3 Fubar for Savage Love Quote of the Year! :)

@9 BiDanFan: Hooraaaaaayyyy! I'm so relieved that Dan's Savage Love column remains unchanged and I don't have to register a new account under a new system.
The Lucky Numbers game con continue unscathed! :D

@10 BiDanFan: Agreed and seconded. Fubar @3 wins the thread.
FAVE should be nominated Slimy Trolling Asshole Bitch of the Year.
That would aptly categorize her as a fatal STAB to be avoided and
blocked from ever again posting on Savage Love.


I read the first letter again and won’t rule out the possibility that it was written by a homophobe man.
He may be a self-hating closeted case himself, one who secretly enjoys getting off on being humiliated while dragging unsuspecting, non-consenting others to take part in his online fantasies.

In other new: ”Female Trouble” is my all-time John Waters movie, at least the first half of it. A holiday season favorite.


The luscious Lucky @69 Award is next up for grabs. Since accepting my THIRDT! honors I, Griz, disqualify myself from any further Lucky Numbers for this week's Savage Love column thread. Good luck to those participating. :D


@13: Possible, but seemingly quite convoluted to go to that trouble for such a fantasy.


Who knows, may be just a plain homo hater. Terminology and phrases suggest real hate either way.
If indeed a woman, I wonder if she conflates assholism with “being tough” while dealing with pain.
Someone on the competing thread say they’ve seen similar posts on some social media platforms, and they assume the letter to be genuine.


@13 CMDwannabe: "Female Trouble". I admittedly have never seen the 1974 film itself, so I Google searched it. It has an interesting plot. The title, however, reminds me of too many memories associated with consistently bad menstrual periods that would make Divine shudder.


@4 I'm not a Dom at all and I thought of the same thing. Maybe because I have a 1 year old. When they get crying while you're changing, it's definitely got a subservient feel to it.

@8 I think she also needs to lean into her situation. She describes herself like a Big Beautiful woman. She should go onto some sites focused on BBW or BBB women and find someone who is super into that. They'll give you everything you need. I get not wanting the kink thing to be so prevalent when you're looking for a long-term relationship and don't want it to just be about that kink but if you're just looking for intimacy, who cares? And these websites are likely to be less about dating/marriage at first (though it could certainly happen) and more likely to involve people who are good at respecting boundaries with safety and identity.


PADD~ Because nothing says DOMINANT like a grown man in a diaper…


"but unless he’s pressuring you or pouting about it, I don’t think he’s being an asshole. If he asked nicely and you said no and he dropped it, "
"this person keeps making requests that I shave or trim "

does "keeps making requests" = "pressuring" ?

BiDanFan @9 "Maybe he loves eating pussy and there's a big reward in it for you."
You like what you like, but as a pussy lover myself, as long as she is clean, the state of a partners pubes would not stop me and I certainly wouldn't withhold cunnilingus based on the length of her pubes. Well, in the case of sharp stubble I might offer to shave her (given that stubble indicates she has shaved at some point) but if the offer was declined I'd still go down on her if she was willing.


How very confusing! Two sites to join then?


Aunt Zelda @ 17
I should mention that the movie sometimes deals with issues like child abuse. There's a scene in which Devine, in their first appearance as a man, is having sex/raping the runaway high school girl also played by Divine. There’s even a murder scene.

It comes with the unmistakable twisted, grotesque, charming tackiness that characterized the early John Waters films, and despite the very low budget and often poor acting still offers plenty hilarious moments which may not suit every viewer.


@13 CMDW, my thoughts exactly.


Submission can be about serving, and caring, and following instructions, so I don't really see the contradiction in a dominant baby. He can just sit in the middle of the floor and be a giant id while his girlfriend fusses around trying to please him.


Captain @11, that's an insult to delicious, steamy cunts. Less misogyny please.

CMD @13, or a misogynistic gay man. Think about it: who looks bad as a result of this letter? Straight women. I, too, strongly suspect this LW is too horrible to be true. If she's real, she's both horrible and completely un-self aware of how horrible she is. I would revoke her licence to date, if that were a thing.

Larry @18, the baby is DEFINITELY the boss. I am content with being house slave to a cat! :)

Donny @19, yes, the two don't mesh. Either her partner is a switch, or perhaps he does want to be dominant by subjecting her to infantile tantrums, or perhaps she's so new to this that she just assumed ABDL play would involve them taking turns to wear the diapers. Of all the kinks I've read about here, this must be at the top of my "not my kink" list, such that I can't really even relate to it, so I'll leave the PADD discussion to others who can.

Crazy @20: "does "keeps making requests" = "pressuring" ?" Yes, absolutely. That's the definition of pressure, wouldn't you think?

As both a pussy lover and a pussy haver, I saw a few possibilities in Mr LIMP's persistence. One, he has a fetish for shaved pussy; two, he has misogynistic ideas about women and body hair; three, her lady garden is seriously overgrown. There is, I'm sure you're aware, not a lot of difference between munching a bare versus a well-landscaped rug, but if it's a jungle down there, it's less enjoyable (to varying degrees of preference). I'm sure I'd still go down on her too, but not as often or enthusiastically, and I might in fact suggest some womanscaping, though not repeatedly. It's her decision whether to trim her pubes, and it's my decision whether or how often to explore the jungle if my preference is for rock climbing.


LW1; Gross.
LW2; ah. The pubic hair debate. I think Dan is right, a trim is a half way point? Some people seem to hate pubic hair & some love it. If this man complains after you’ve done a trim, give him the boot & tell others upfront that you’re haired up down there.


LW3; what a kind sub you are. Way out of my known worlds what you’re asking about, and after changing the bums of six babies for all those years, not one I plan to ever join.
Sounds complicated, and as Dan said, boundary bending.
Get clear instructions from your Dom how to proceed.


SINGLE, kudos to you. Now to find you a lover. Not happy with Dan’s suggestion, married men? And how does a woman know if this married man is really in one of these types of marriages?
Always think of your curves as part of your charm, wear your body with pride. And go out to bars, etc, try face to face hook ups. The smell of danger is real that way.


@22 CMDwannabe: Thank you for further clarification on "Female Trouble".
It doesn't sound like a film I'd want to see, though if there is child abuse, rape, and an obnoxious child is the product of that rape.
The sort of "Female Trouble"-ish movies I'm more into are like the original Carrie (1976),
the ultimate teenage girl revenge fantasy based on Stephen King's 1974 novel. When viewing I clink glasses when Sissy Spacek, in the title role wastes the senior prom, properly disposing of the film's and the novel's own version of FAVE, evil Christine Hargenson and her minions.


Gay man here and I agree with Dan's letter that FAVE is a terrible person. Yes, the boyfriend DID have a responsibility to either tell her he was gay or bi. If he didn't feel he could risk doing so, he could have at least broken off the relationship (the old "this relationship isn't working for me", "I need to see other people", or "I've joined the military and am going off to training." But what raises FAVE to POS level is the absolute vengeful glee she felt when she outed this guy to anyone who would listen. She has some serious anger issues she needs to work on if she wants to maintain friends. In addition, if the boyfriend was lousy in bed and not doing the things she needed or desired to get her rocks off, she could also take responsibility of dumping his ass. Or even better, just sit down and have an honest, mature adult conversation with him, letting him know you sense he might be attracted to men and she is breaking up with him to give him space to explore his feelings and desires.


Some of these letters and some of Dan's answers seem to be deliberate attempts at trolling.


LIMP~ In the pantheon of outrageous requests, shaving your pubes ranks somewhere between “Hey, can you scratch my back” and “I prefer two-percent milk to whole”. And you said it was a request, not a demand, big difference. My SO has a very light bush, but it’s fun to go bald every now and then and it feels different for both of us, so why not take the extra minute in the shower to drag a razor across the ol’ beaver? You also might ask for a compromise of just shaving your labia to save a couple strokes. I personally like a patch of fur adorning the top, and you can always get creative and shave it into a different pattern each week. Tin Man from Oz one week, Boris Johnson’s hair the next, etc…


If anyone would like to read what Mr. Venn has to say about this week's column, his comment is up on the new site.



FAVE: This letter is FAKE (even the acronym suggests it). The "writer" is cartoonishly evil. I'm sure there are women out there this evil, but they would have written themselves in a more flattering light.

LIMP: If your boyfriend had a mustache, and you thought you'd find him more attractive without it, wouldn't you let him know that? People in relationships routinely adjust their appearance to please their partner. In areas ranging from hairstyle to underwear, my foremost concern is being attractive to my wife. This could certainly be carried to controlling/abusive extremes, but there's nothing in the letter to suggest that is the case. I think the writer is just a bit prudish about the idea of pubic grooming.


Bama @34, I know this isn't the answer you wanted, but my answer to your hypothetical is "no." If someone has a moustache and I don't like moustaches, I just wouldn't date them. I might offer an opinion if asked, but I wouldn't agree to a date and then ask someone to change their look. This couple has only been dating for A MONTH, so your desire to look good for your wife is not analogous. Nobody's foremost concern should be looking good for someone they barely know. In other words, sure, people in relationships routinely adjust their appearance to please their partner, but these two aren't in a relationship. He's made his preference known, so his options are accept her as is or find someone less hairy to date. (The phrase "I love you, you're perfect, now change" is coming to mind.)


What the letter is unclear on is LIMP's own preferences. She says she "couldn't care less" about her partners' hair, which seems to imply she'd be fine with a partner who shaved or a partner who didn't. If she really has no preference regarding her partners' hair, she could try some empathy and pretend she did -- since this guy clearly does. Does she have a strong preference for being hairy, for whatever reason? If she doesn't have a preference either way, perhaps she could let the fact that he does have a preference override her lack of preference, and get the razor or scissors out. His reaction may make it worth her while to continue.


Allow me to register my sick amusement at VAFE's proof that her ex was gay or bi: "He sucked at sex, never initiated and was clueless about the female anatomy." Alas, that describes some number of straight men too. Being straight doesn't automatically confer good in bed or good to women status.


Now I’m getting why Dan last week said one can join via fb, because I’ve just seen his page there & the new comment section. The air clears & understanding dawns.


Fichu @37, my thought was, if anything, that would prove he's not bisexual. ;)


Donny @32, your idea of shaving into different patterns reminded me of a great women’s magazine, ViVa, that was out in the early 70s. Had this section showing pics of shaved into differ shapes, pussy. I did a wall collage on the room I was in in my shared house, which included these pictures . Owners weren’t happy when later they came to sell the house.
You missing the point here, the LW doesn’t want to shave, reticent to trim by the sound of her. Why should she change her aesthetic about her own body, to please him?
I think they are incompatible. Pubic hair lovers need to get with other pubic hair lovers. And no, shaving there is not akin to scratching someone’s back.


Ms Fichu - that was a variant on my first thought, that LW1 was paying an extravagant compliment to straight men (though I did not mention the quantity of evidence this page has seen to the contrary).


Ms Fan - Now that might be a way to make a win-win distinction between the B and the P - that bi is good at gendered anatomy in a way that pan would scorn to be, so that each of the two could find itself preferable.


Fubar @33 there's another site?? With a whole, separate comments section?! Oy vey.

Between duplicate, parallel sites/comments section, lackluster letters, and a sudden proliferation of troll-y newcomers, I think my time here is coming to an end. It's been absolutely lovely and this corner of the internet really saw me through a tough time in my life, but I think this chapter is about over for me.


I, for one, will miss you mrs_fox. Gotta agree somewhat about the lackluster letters, though. Has COVID destroyed people’s creativity and urges to fuck knotholes in trees and write about it? C’mon America. Who just secretly spit cum in a communion chalice?


Not sure I agree lots of trolls are turning up, Ms Fox, more people having a say.
Take care of yourself & your family. And thanks for your words.


Venn @42, uh... so self-identified pansexuals would have to take on the mantle of being bad lovers? I can't see that happening. Unless I have once again misunderstood you.


Mrs. Fox @43: was launched a while ago, and just got a new comments section.

I read Dan's heads-up (on this site last week) to mean this site was getting a new comments section. But apparently not. So I'm going to ignore that site and carry on here until something changes.

The new site has new people chiming in, and expressing surprise at the new comments section. It appears that the new site is linked elsewhere on the Internet.

I did some digging, and found that Savage Love is hosted on other sites (like The Onion's AV Club) with their own comments sections and regulars.

It's a little like discovering that we're adopted, and daddy Dan has whole other families out there!


Dan, the woman who outed her son-of-a-bitch boyfriend may be angry, but she is right. She has exposed him so that other women don't have to suffer as his beard. I am gay. I don't like guys who hurt women. She has a right to protect herself and ... most of all ... OTHER WOMEN from this guy.


SuperHomo @48: “I am gay.”

Thanks for clarifying. Here in Canada, “Homo” is short for homogenized milk (3.5% fat) which comes in bags. We thought you had a milk fetish, eh?

As the bible says, two wrongs don’t make a right.

Okay, maybe it wasn’t the bible. Perhaps Oscar Wilde said that, or Winston Churchill.

Either way, the woman is nasty, and not in a good way.


@49 fubar

I don't care about your names for milk. I don't care about the bible. I don't care about Oscar Wilde or Winston Churchill. And I don't care about gutless gay men who use women. He deserves the exposure whether it comes from someone naughty or nice.

Just so you know.


@35 BiDanFan,

I agree and disagree with your rationale.
If casual dating is the goal, then yes, she should not shave and move on. If she is looking for a long term relationship and the dating partner is a potential match for her, I don't see the harm in her shaving.

I think if they are both looking for a long term relationship, the dating partner would most likely be better off to move on. The "rigidity" of not wanting to shave is most likely just the tip of the iceberg in the LW's lack of flexibility when it come to the level compromise required in a healthy relationship.


f_m_f @ 43
in order to qualify for “rookie of the year” you need to stick around for a year, or at least till the end of the year.
There was someone with an avatar that resembled yours on the new site, I’m relieved to know it wasn’t you.

My first impression of the new comments site is that it is catering mostly to one or two sentences multimediaistas who may not care much if their identity is revealed because they keep their comments to a somewhat like neutral/semi-smart sound bite like anyway.
I think this site still allows plenty of privacy as well as the opportunity to discuss issues at length.

The “classic” format also allows one to see when people joined, hence reducing some troll traffic. This feature is enhancing my impression that SuperHomo @ 48 and 50 who was so kind to join us today is indeed the homophobe incel who wrote/faked FAVE’s letter.


I apologize in advance, but there is another comment thread? I'm confused, any information would be greatly appreciated.
Is it another publication that is posting Dan's advice column and their own comment section?


George @53: See @47.


Mrs. Fox @43: I hope you don't leave. I've enjoyed everything you've written thus far. You're good at this.


I've been seriously thinking for a while of saying goodbye to this column and its comment thread, too. The letters are not especially interesting lately, and the confusion of two parallel sites/comments sections, doesn't sound appealing enough for me to bother registering and trying to navigate. I'll probably still read the occasional column, but I think this is a good time for me to take my leave, following the example of Ensign Pulver and Fantastic Mrs. Fox.

I've learned some valuable things here over the years, and from some of the commentors easily as much as or sometimes more than from Dan. So thank you all, and take care.


I don’t think the other thread is gonna cause much of a problem here. Except more exits. And now nocute, a founding member here.
SuperHomo sure seems suss, CMD @52, & given their defending of the indefensible, could be the LW. Needing more attention, however negative it might be.
And SuperHomo, please with the hero around ‘women’, because this nasty person writing the letter sounds like she’s barging thru doors & people need protecting from her.


You don’t need to register on the disc one, nocute. CMD is right, it’s just for short ish comments. This forum thru The Stranger allows for more in depth responses.


@43 fantastic_mrs_fox, Ens. Pulver, and @56 nocutename: Thank you all for your heartfelt positive contributions to the Savage Love weekly columns and comment threads. You will all be greatly missed! Big hugs, positrons, and VW beeps!

@55 fubar: Thank you for your kind offer to help me navigate to the new DISQUS site / comment section. I'm doubtful about registering for it though, especially if Savage Love is still open for numbered comments and remains as is. Juggling and having to remember multiple usernames & passwords / sites / comment sections / usually doesn't bode well for me.

@56 nocutename: I too, am confused by two parallel sites / comment sections. Although I gratefully appreciate fubar's kind offer of helping me navigate through registration to DISQUS (Again, thank you fubar @55), many SL letters lately have been hard reads for me, too. FAVE in particular left a bad taste in my mouth.
Like fantastic_mrs_fox, and Ens. Pulver you will bw very much missed! Thank you, too, for your consistently spot on contributions, hugs, positrons, and VW beeps and take care.


That is an unhelpful comment, dave@59.


Super @48, so her nine months of bad sex, snooping and humiliating outing campaign were a service to the community? Interesting take. I had the thought that at least for nine months, straight and bi men were safe from -her-. CMY, as our friend Venn would say?

George @51, I also agree and disagree with myself, because the key question here, which is unanswered, is why. Why does he want her to get rid of her pubic hair? We don't know whether he has a kink, is an enthusiastic oral sex giver but only if he can actually get in there, or is a controlling jerk. We also don't know whether she has a political investment in her pubes or whether womanscaping just never occurred to her. On its face it seems out of line to make these requests of someone you just started dating; if an LTR is her goal, he might be showing he's disqualified.

Also, speaking as someone who's shaved her pubes for decades, shaving is a pretty big ask. Trimming, as Dan says, is barely an ask at all, it's like being asked to brush your teeth. Trimming could be a hygiene issue, as vaginal fluid can get trapped in the hair. I agree if she's not willing to do that, he's the one who should move on. But not wanting to deal with stubble, risk of nicks, and ongoing maintenance isn't "rigidity," it's practicality. Unless he has a fetish, he doesn't get to ask for that more than once. And if he does have a fetish, it's on him to disclose that, up to her whether to be GGG, and up to him to consider it a dealbreaker.


It seems this site will soon be a ghost town. I don't have much interest in joining the new site if the regulars I've come to enjoy such a good rapport with don't, and indeed can probably think of more productive things to do with my time. Whatever happened to the return of the SLLOTD?
Fondest farewells to Mrs Fox, Ens Pulver and Nocutename, and anyone else who wants to make a quiet or announced exit. All the best to you.


While more work needs to be done, Example one in LW1, and these ignorant men turning up, superboy & Dave, I’ll not be able to leave.
Personally, I like fleshy women, being myself one now. For decades I was this skinny run off her feet mother, and then, it all changed. Walking is good to ‘manage’ the extra weight. Luscious is how I see fleshy women.


"Interesting take" was sarcasm, btw.


Ms Fan - Not "bad" lovers per se; my working idea (and it was just a toss-off in the style of your own, and I omitted the obvious retort) was designed to give each side a particular area of expertise, B excelling in the differences and P the similarities. Probably not workable, but I have lately seen so many people on edge about whether there's a difference or precisely what it is that anything that could be established would go a great way to producing general harmony.


Ms Cute - If you are genuinely leaving and not jut in the sort of mood that can be set right with a re-read of Northanger Abbey (although I do agree that here seems to be a hint of Austria in the air lately), then perhaps the following is the best way to send you on your path (it's certainly something that would only come from me):

May you never find it necessary to use more than half your understanding.


Perhaps Mr Bar will agree with me that the flavour of the new site seems rather different with threaded comments (probably a net minus), the return of bold and italic and the rest of those tricks (plus) and the capacity to vote comments up and down (likely a wash). It feels as if one were somewhere quite dissimilar.


nocute- THANK YOU for the huge contribution you've made to the commenters section over the years. Hope to see/read you here again. Shalom vel'hitra'ot.


Venn @65: "B excelling in the differences and P the similarities"
In other words, B rounds up to straight and P down to gay?
Nope, I'm afraid that makes less sense than the current claim (by pansexuals) that only pansexuals are attracted to trans and non-binary people.
What was the obvious retort? That might land better!


I'm sad about what is happening and how unhappy people are.

When I heard tell that comments were moving, naturally I assumed that they would /move/ and not exist on both sites.

Comments on both sites further endangers the long-waning (for other reasons) vitality of the community by dividing it's potential for both interaction and member growth.

Since it now (appallingly) seems that comments will be on both sites separately, perhaps ad revenue might be the key. Perhaps both sites want the ad revenue from comment traffic. I ask that one of them please stand down from this counterproductive plan. This Comment Board is not merely a revenue stream; it also tries to serve a public service of helping people who have asked for advice, and it's health is key to that.

I'm /very/ sad to hear that wonderful and vital members like Fantastic.Mrs.Fox and Nocutename are departing. Even though I left a few weeks ago, weeks before Comments moving to the new site was announced, it is still important to me that the good people who do great work here still happily do so for the benefit of the world.


FAVE's letter would seem to be one more in a long list that are a variation on:

"I have a ton of reasons to break up with the man I've been seeing but need an excuse or outside validation that I have a right to. By some unwritten rule, my own unhappiness isn't enough. I need someone to tell me I'm allowed to break up with him, or else ..."

And I've never figured out what the unspoken or else is. Or else I'm a bad person? Or else I'm illogical? Or else I'm unfaithful to rules I wrote myself but can't see clear to rewrite for myself? There are all sorts of speculations possible for why women get tied into these knots. They don't deserve even the minimum standard of good behavior from a man?

In this case, FAVE suspected her boyfriend was gay or bi. She could have walked away from him the minute she had that feeling. Instead, she went along when he flatly denied it. I can't guess what she was trying to prove by going along with his lie instead of believing her own truth. She could have walked away after the first instance of his being bad in bed-- or the 2nd or the 3rd. Instead, she kept on initiating. Perhaps to prove she's a good feminist? Again, I'll never know.

Super brings up an interesting point @48. Perhaps FAVE was motivated out of some twisted idea that she was providing a service to women who might otherwise get roped into acting the unwitting beard. It's twisted, of course, because any other woman would have at her disposal the same means FAVE had. They have their intuition, their likes and dislikes in bed that might include a man who initiates and knows female anatomy. They can make decisions for themselves on what they'll put up with.


I'm having a hard time seeing the difference between LIMP's situation regarding pubic hair and a case where a man criticized the way his lover chose to dress or cut her hair.

If a guy said "Can you go change? I don't want you dressed like that," many women would call it abusive, a DTMFA emergency.

Maybe the women on here can correct me, but being controlling regarding a partner's grooming is not so different, is it? I suspect the LW gets less sympathy than she could because she is possibly an outlier re. grooming and it may be difficult for many readers to put themselves in her shoes, so imagine the opposite hypthetical, namely a woman who usually shaves being nagged to grow out a large bush/underarm hair/hairy legs. Wouldn't that feel creepy and possessive?


I agree with you, cbu, @72, that such requests are crossing the line. Now LIMP is going to feel uncomfortable about herself & her grooming choices, around this man.


Cocky @72, yes, that's my position. There are always caveats, mine being, does he have a fetish for a shaved beaver, and if so, can he put in those terms and ask her to be GGG -- or is she just way too bushy for him to get full enjoyment out of sex with her, perhaps she doesn't realise it. But those are big ifs. Another possibility is indeed that he's out of line in asking her to change the way she maintains her bush, particularly asking repeatedly, particularly after just a month of dating. Unless one of my caveats applies, she should tell him he's being a controlling jerk and say buh-bye.


My eyebrows are knit at Dan's 'somewhat controversially...'. Is that an overweight het fortysomething's best shot at getting laid? I think @4. Fubar's idea of ethical nonmonogamy, making contact through meetups, is more plausible and practicable (leaving aside ethical measures). Does someone in SINGLE's position need to be conventionally attractive to find a partner? She does not, I would say. I have the feeling that more women in midlife or just earlier would go to ENM munches were it not for the gesture being understood culturally as admitting defeat.

As for confidence, that may beget itself, when people start to find you interesting and sexy. And forget about flab, to some degree--it's confidence itself that's sexy. Good luck!


This relationship is a month or so on, and LIMP’s lover is already trying to change & manipulate her. This is a woman in her forties, who by that age, knows her mind & how she likes her body to look, hair wise. Yet still she’s second guessing herself & writing Dan.
I’d be giving such a man the flick, because no, I don’t shave or trim and yes I keep my pubic hair clean. If a man is so repulsed or whatever the feeling is he has, then best not to be sharing such an intimate part of oneself with him.


FAVE: on what basis does she feel 'superior' to her gay male friends? Because she's more honest? Better at sex? But how would she know, re the non-closeted ones? This homophobe lives in another world if she thinks Dan is going to josh along with her in her exposure of one not-out gay guy.

LIMP: the email is not boring; it draws attention to a sex war flashpoint. I think you also need to have a bit more self-assertiveness in standing up for yourself and saying this is an issue of bodily autonomy. The only potential difficulty would be if your bf has a fetish for 'shaved'. But then he would explain that, and you would be in a position to decide whether to be 'game', or, at an extreme, to give up the relationship or not. I don't get the sense this is the state of play between you two.

PADD: this is something for you to discuss with your Dom--but I don't see why you can't change him. The fantasy (cough, cough, lots of ummm-ing) scenario would be that you really hate changing diapers, find it messy and degrading, and he's forcing you to do it. Part of the issue with the eroticising of roles here is that it's hard to do, paradoxically, if the difference is paper-thin between the role and the ordinary, non-scene or -fantasised attitude.


@20. crazy cat dude. I agree. We shouldn't give house room to ideas like 'you have to be shaved to get head' or 'het men are entitled on principle to decline to eat you out when you're unshaved'. This is nonsense.

If a guy is more inclined to go down on a woman when she's shaved, this is something he can say and it becomes part of a negotiation--but that's something different; the principles suggested above are unhelpful.

@19. Donny. Yes ... and I suspect the guy, in a situation like this, is more into the ABDP than the Domming....

@31. Nocute. Trolling? You think? Maybe Dan, esp. in his answer about married men, wants us to revisit our assumptions. My sense, in response, was that Dan seemed to think very little of an overweight mid-40 yo het woman's romantic prospects. Or sexual prospects, for that matter. Not sure how far this was hard-headedness, and how far prejudice--but I thought 'prejudice'.

@32. Donny. Interesting. I see the request as more of a bodily autonomy issue, and a bigger ask, say, than seeking to persuade your gf to wear better-matching colors or garments that better suit her figure.

@33. Fubar. Post in venn's response, then. Other than you can't read this (oh-so provocative) request, given the wonder that is the Slogblocker.

@41. Lava. I agree with you about shaving.

@48. SuperHomo. She could just tell her friends that the guy was a disappointing lover. And--in a relationship that lasted nine months--was that the only standout point about him, good or bad? If it was all (or mostly) bad, just tell people, other potential gf s, about the bad.

@51. George. If the guy really is rigid about it, then it could well be indicative, as you suggest, and she might consider finding someone better for the long term.


No need to panic re Dan’s comments section on his page. It’s what other sites on the internet do. People play hard ball on the disc one, smacking trolls down. That format attracts a different audience to those who come here, though some obviously overlap.


Mr. Venn @67: I do agree that the other site has quite a different flavour, although I think that threading might actually be a plus: backing up to check @ tags is a pain, especially without the SaveageLUBE plugin. I like the "spoiler" feature, and formatting and upvoting (liking) are plusses, but downvoting feels a tad rude.

Having two different comment sections is just plain confusing, and a disappointment too far for some.




LIMP: If you aren't comfortable with someone who brings this up before you've even known each other 6 weeks (I got the impression you haven't had sex yet?), you are completely within your rights to end the relationship. What matters here is not whether you're "prudish" or not, or what you think about pubic hair in general. It's whether you are OK with being asked to change something so personal and intimate by a man who barely knows you -- and it seems you are not. I definitely urge you to trust your feelings there and move on from this guy.


Jesus, what did I start!? Please don't leave, Nocutename and Mrs. Fox. People actually read and learn from YOUR posts.

Bye again


Maybe we could start some kind of comments/chat group independent of SL? I like all you regulars and I love hearing what you all have to say and gleaning insights from you. I would hate to lose the community aspect. I've just been underwhelmed by the letters Dan's been getting/choosing to respond to for a while. The new site sounds similar to Reddit, which I've already got Reddit for. And newcomers are all well and good when they have something to say, but that's pretty few and far between from what I've seen. What think you, Regular Commentariat? Would anyone be down for a way to communally still chat and keep in touch and bring tidbits from advice columns to discuss?


I wrote in as @SNIP a couple of weeks ago and shared that my wife wasn't crazy about me shaving--and that she certainly wasn't going to do that to herself. I guess it cuts both ways: @LIMP feels that shaving would violate her body integrity. We've been married 23 years now, and we've been apart for 5 months. When we get back together I'll be as clean as a whistle. The thought of her being smooth and hairless just made me stir, but I know that's not happening. 23 years is a long time to take a stand on follicular rights. (PS - LIMP is not my wife)

@FAVE is obviously fake. No one that evil would be that self-unaware.


Ms Fan - Not quite; the idea was that B would accentuate the differences between the sexes of their partners and develop different techniques for each while the P would focus more on techniques that would please all partners across the board/ Probably not workable, but it fits my own - admittedly, not extensive - experience with multisexual men, in that most of them went in one direction or the other (the obvious retort was that the claim for bi [male and perhaps NB as well] superiourity as lovers probably only applied to when they had women partners - or, of course, straight-chasers). This is back before the P identity was in vogue, but it has occurred to me to wonder since if the ones who treated me as if I were a woman now present under the P.


Hope you two can enjoy the difference, Steeeeverino/ SNIP @85.
It’s hard to describe how naked the thought of shaving pubes off feels, so I understand your wife’s position. Then I read how shaved is a big plus for many.


Mr Bar - It seems easier to keep up with additions if one doesn't have to go through multiple threads.


Mrs Fox - Theoretically not bad, although almost everywhere else has gone paid, and it's hard to think of any other columns worth the subscription just for the sale of discussion.


Aww, that's very sweet of you Fantastic.Mrs.Fox! I know I hate the idea of losing touch with wonderful people like you.

One option would be a mailing list; I chose Google.Groups for a large one I moved there.


@69 BiDanFan: WA-HOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!! Congratulations on scoring this week's luscious Lucky @69 Award numeric honors! Bask in the glory and savor your newfound riches. :)

I now am left wondering about what contributions I have made to Savage Love columns, particularly the Lucky Numbers game, which was just meant to be good, clean, innocent fun. Quirky at best, quite possibly annoying at worst. What with so much political ugliness happening locally, nationally and globally I had meant for it to be a welcome distraction, and lost the point of Svage Love being a sex advice column. For that I apologize.
Is a lot of the reason for this mass exodus because of me? I am deeply saddened by news of Ens. Pulver, fantastic_mrs_fox, and nocutename leaving the comment thread. I have learned a tremendous lot from Savage Love, Dan, and all of you.
Regular commenters--please let's all keep in touch!

@83 Ens. Pulver and @84 fantastic_mrs_fox: I would love to still be in a regular chat situation.
Please let's keep in touch! You are among those so consistently spot on in the SL comment threads. It is heartbreaking to see you go.

@88 vennominon: I haven't heard from you lately and hope I did nothing to annoy or offend you or anyone else here in Savage Love.

Dan the Man, @73 LavaGirl, @74 BiDanFan , @80 fubar, @68 CMD and curious2 @70 and @89: You all have my email address already. Other regular commenters Please let's keep in touch. Although we have never met in person (with Dan being an exception), I consider our online group as family.


No it’s not because of you Grizelda, how could you think that. The no’s game is fun. The letters are somber so a bit of levity breaks up focus on the problems people bring to Dan.


@91 LavaGirl: Thank you and bless you. I know I do have a tendency to go off on a tangent, though. Hugs, positrons, and VW beeps. :)


Harriet @78, by no means should Fubar or anyone else cross-post Venn's comment on the site without his consent. If we want to read it, we can go read it there.

I agree with you that Dan's "controversial" suggestion seems to imply that an overweight, 40-something woman must be desperate, or at least can't expect any better than to have to sacrifice her own ethics to land a man. Forties isn't old and overweight isn't unattractive. SINGLE, you are not the sad leftovers and you do have the right to an ethical relationship. ENM meetups may be the way to go, if you don't struggle with jealousy.

Toad @82, I definitely got the impression they've had sex, otherwise how could he possibly know what state her pubic hair is in? I agree that she should listen to her gut. Regardless of what other people do and don't do with their pubes, decent people don't (sorry about this) badger people over their beavers. If she likes him otherwise, ask him what's up, otherwise, move on.

Steeeeve @85, I'm curious whether you suggested your half-on-half-off compromise to your wife, and how she reacted. Like I said in the comments then, good on you for immediately understanding that your wife's preferences regarding her own body are sacrosanct. Mr LIMP should learn a lesson from you.


I'm happy to stay in touch too. Due to the semi-anonymous nature of this forum, it would be good to keep things here -- we can certainly discuss whatever we want, we don't need to keep it to the topics of Dan's column (when have we ever done that?). If there is another group being set up, I'd appreciate it being vetted, since I'm more easily tracked down via Google etc which seems to want to connect everyone's work and personal lives and share them with anyone who's interested.


@83. Ensign. I'm sure people read and learn from your posts too.

@90. Griz. The reason for the mass exodus is almost certainly nothing to do with you. I'm as sure of this as I can be of anything.

@93. Bi. I wouldn't see an issue with Fubar or anyone paraphrasing venn's response on another site. The impression I formed was that venn would have posted there because he took that new comments page as the main, or only, forum on which to respond to the letters and advice. I had (and have) a hard time imagining that venn's contribution was more suited to a slangy or smart style of giving a pat or self-evident response, or would go down better with a group of never-before-assembled commenters than with this group, many of whom are familiar with his references and manner.

It still seems to me possible that this comments page, part of The Stranger, will at some stage link to that of the Savage Love site. The comments boards may be conflated. The question here would seem to be of who owns the sites (Dan will have substantial ownership in each), and whether the benefits (in eyeballs leading to ad revenue) on a site outweigh the cost of maintaining and moderating it. This further suggests a rationale for keeping conversations between commenters on the readers' pages civil, light and fun.

@88. Venn. With threading, you have to hope that a commenting community can identify a subthread that's on a certain topic and comment on the topic on that thread. A well-organised, or good self-organising, community can sometimes have as few as three or four long threads for a week-long discussion. I wouldn't necessarily trust this group to comment below people they have taken in aversion or, for any reason, habitually don't read.


Harriet @94: "I wouldn't see an issue with Fubar or anyone paraphrasing venn's response on another site." No, and you don't see an issue with revealing personal details after being repeatedly asked not to do so. It's called privacy. Please respect other people's. If Venn wants to repost his comment here, he can.


@90 griz not you! It's me. Or more to the point my work, so busy. Plus, as others have said, more trolls, less Dan (he used to pop into the comments more), and the new SL comment thread Disqus monetizes my engagement collecting data and selling it and I don't like that. The old comments monetized me by showing me ads and click-throughs, but doesn't seem to sell my comment behavior data to quite the same extent that Disqus does. SL is going more corporate. And Disqus defaults comments to reflect the "most popular" rather than the chronological thread so it feels more commercial, less homespun than the comments here, and here felt like a smaller community of Seattle folks and people who stumbled on this rather than an everyone-under-the-sun feel of


But I may still pop in from time to time here I don't think I'll bother with the Disqus site, the comments on savage lovecast using Disqus have never been very productive.


And for those departing thank you to all the kind regulars, curious2 / Curious2, Nocutename, AuntieGriz and many many more! This has reminded me the internet can be a kind and interesting place. Even the trolls seemed kinder here. Maybe something about the "stumbling upon this" and a certain limited size combined to make it a nicer, gentler, space, even though it was/is open to anyone!


The social media-oriented comment section on the other side of SL should not be viewed as a competition nor a reason to turn gloomingly sentimental.
SL is essentially a private enterprise and as such keeps up with current trends. That this section still exists tells me that we are valued, that our collective experience and wisdom are appreciated, that we don’t need to go anywhere.
Think of us as the respected wise folks council of the SL tribe, the house of lords of all ages, genders, orientations, and everything else.

That some people have declared their departure should not be a deterrence. Hopefully they’ll reconsider. History tells us that between The Who and venn there are some six or more goodbye tours.

The new format may prove more suitable for some of our in-house trolls. I hear one of them is already there, eager as ever to boast his moral superiority.
The new site may bring us commenters who want to dive a bit deeper. We can reach and invite them to the discussion.

Dan- What we all need, as some have already touched on in this thread or a previous one, are letters that go beyond the immediate sensationalism. Letters that deal with real life issues that may resonate with others, followed by thoughtful and properly researched official/s response.

Shabbat shalom to all.


OMG I'm sorry that I forgot you were absent too. (I'm old.)

"Disqus monetizes my engagement collecting data and selling it and I don't like that."

There is a setting to Opt Out of that:

Mr. Venn@88
"It seems easier to keep up with additions if one doesn't have to go through multiple threads."

Agreed, I don't see an easy way to see the new content on multiple threads.

And Disqus threads' utility is limited because they must remain short, inasmuch as I imagine they quickly become impractically narrow.

"Google etc which seems to want to connect everyone's work and personal lives"

Having locked down the privacy settings on my account, I'm confident in using it here. One can search for guides to do so like


Going further, ONE DOES NOT NEED A GOOGLE ACCOUNT TO USE GOOGLE GROUPS. A Google Groups mailing list can be configurable to allow any email address--Gmail or not--to subscribe to it. I volunteer to share my experience admin-ing mailing lists.

"I hear one of them is already there, eager as ever to boast his moral superiority."

Which one and who is it? "Baron von Blubba"? I can't identify any among the blessedly few who have Commented there.


delta35 @96: Disqus does monetize your engagement, but you can opt out. Honestly, I hate where the world has gone and is going with this, but that’s another topic.

I don’t think SL is going more corporate. They’re simply outsourcing the dinosaur that is the comments section.

If I had to bet, I’d guess that the SL comments section on will remain, simply because the same content management system is used across the site. On the other hand, perhaps the entire site will also switch to Disqus.

If it’s technically possible for to link to the same Disqus commentary as, then there’s no reason for all the other syndicated Savage Love columns to link too, and that would be a whole new world.

But who knows? Announcements are few and far between, and history has shown that we’ll just have to wait and see. I hope that people who need to can take a break, and come back when the electrons have stopped swirling.


CMD @99: "The new format may prove more suitable for some of our in-house trolls. I hear one of them is already there, eager as ever to boast his moral superiority.”

Now who’s trolling?

    Please wait...

    Comments are closed.

    Commenting on this item is available only to members of the site. You can sign in here or create an account here.

    Add a comment

    By posting this comment, you are agreeing to our Terms of Use.