“Keep threatening to vote them out of office. They represent you and your interests. Remind them of that.”

Yes, because, more likely than not, you’ll be turning Congress over to the Republicans, not more “progressives”, and that’ll really help the Palestinians (and anyone not male, white, and fundamentalist Christian).

Israel's
got 'our'
politicians
by the Pubes
and they'll Never
let go till the Last
Gazans're all DEAD.

small
Wonder
they're too
Terrified to call
out Israel's Terrorism
\Genocide/Ethnic Cleansing

in repsonse
to Hamas'
Horrors.

STOP
ALL the
WAR Crimes

brought to us!
by Boeing Raytheon
& various makers of WMDs

who've Never seen
a War they
couldn't
Get be-
Hind.

which
ironically
is their Favorite
Position: outta the Way!

@3
Speaking of Pubes -
if I wanted to fry my genitals, I’ll do it the old-fashioned way, thank you
by standing in front of the microwave!

I didn't realize Gig Harbor was its own congressional district.

thanks, Pat L!

@2
yes Children!
if you Complain
YOU'll be Electing
el trumpfster! so STFUA

otoh

Mother Jones:

Young
Progressives
Are Disgusted
With Biden Over Israel

The president’s response,
said a Democratic strategist,
“absolutely could cost Biden the election.”

Most Democratic members of Congress have avoided breaking with the administration or making themselves a target for pro-Israel groups.

Like the president, they tend to be old—the average Democratic House member is 58 and the average senator is 65—and came of age at a time when largely unconditional support for Israel was the norm.

Their positions are particularly at odds with the younger voters whom Democrats will need to win next year.

Many young progressives appear more disgusted with a Democratic president than they have been in decades.

At the anti-war protests that have spread across the nation, they have chanted, “Biden, Biden, you can’t hide; we charge you with genocide.”

The concern for Democrats is not so much that younger voters will back Republicans in 2024, but that they will support a third-party candidate, or not vote at all.
--by Noah Lanard

tonnes more
including how
Israel Controlls
“our” Congress:

https://www.motherjones.com/politics/2023/11/israel-palestine-hamas-war-democrats-biden-progressives-young-split-congress/

LOL when are the boomers writing for the Stranger going to stop linking to Twitter and calling it journalism? It's awful enough that the site's fascist billionaire policies aren't enough to get you to stop, but now we've gotta look at grandma's months-old beaver memes and pretend like she's not senile

Men who see a chat app and think, "Aha! The perfect venue for my unsolicited dick pics!" should have electrodes taped to their dicks.

Oh, wait. No. Maybe that is in fact the worst possible idea after all.

Smokin' Joe's
gotta climb up
on his Bully Pulpit
and Call the fuck Outta
BiBi Nutnyahoo whilst there's
Still time. Genocide's likely to turn
Off too Many Electorates when he cannot
Afford to Lose them. it's in Joe's hands now

and the Prognosis
ain't (currently)
Great.

Now that the IDF is on the ground (and under it) in Gaza City, I'd presume any bombing is more targeted. 1 dead from ordinance hitting Al Shifra? A miracle.

Sorry, the US/Biden doesn't have the ability to force Israel into a ceasefire. The pauses are Netanyahu's concession to US pressure. Don't look a gift horse in the mouth; a humanitarian pause is better than no humanitarian pause.

Who has the ability or desire to force Hamas into one? Ayatollah Khamenei? He paid for all the tunnels and weapons.

@6- the question is whether cutting off Israel would hurt Biden more with older voters than his current stance hurts him with the young ones? And I suspect when it’s all said and done we’ll realize there was some significant pressure put on Israel by the administration behind closed doors.

"Sorry,
the US/Biden
doesn't have the ability
to force Israel into a ceasefire."

true dat.
the Bully Pulpit
ain't about Bombs
it's about The Narrative

which's Gotta change Pre-
WWIII! or it won't be solely
Biden's Presidency what's Toast.

“Keep threatening to vote them out of office.”

Cue another extended bitter rant from the Stranger against the real choices made by real voters in yet another round of real Seattle elections…

@8: Natalie's a Boomer? That's got to be news to her. Mudede is Gen X.

Savage, who barely works at the Stranger now, is the only Boomer I know of. Maybe Segal?

if Terrorsists
held NYC Hostage*
would We be okay with
Bombing NYC till the Final
Terrorist surrendered? hmmmm.

*hell even tentsey
agrees Hama
holding Gazans
Hostage.

*hell even tentsey
Agrees Hamas's
holding Gazans
Hostage.

nyt:

Israel
is considering
a deal for Hamas
to release all civilian
hostages in Gaza, officials say.

In exchange for releasing all the civilians, Hamas is asking for a brief pause, more humanitarian aid, fuel for hospitals and the release of women and children in Israeli prisons, the official said, adding that the Israeli authorities had expressed uncertainty about releasing their prisoners.

Hamas and Israel are negotiating two hostage release proposals, one involving a small number of people and one that could involve 100 or more civilians being held in Gaza, according to officials briefed on the talks.

Hamas and other Palestinian groups are holding around 240 people hostage in Gaza, according to Israeli officials and others briefed on the talks. A little less than half of them are civilians, and the larger deal being negotiated would involve the release of all of those, one official said.

Under one proposal being discussed, Hamas would release 10 to 20 civilian hostages — Israeli women and children as well as foreigners, including Americans — in exchange for a brief pause in hostilities, one official briefed on the talks said. That could be followed by a larger release of about 100 civilians if terms are met.

more, Thankfully!:
https://www.nytimes.com/live/2023/11/10/world/israel-hamas-war-gaza-news#israel-is-considering-a-deal-for-hamas-to-release-all-civilian-hostages-in-gaza-officials-say

@19: So, do you believe NYC is not part of the United States, or do you believe Gaza is part of Israel?

Is there ANY aspect to this conflict in which your beliefs do not depend entirely upon abject ignorance?

@18. "So strange that far leftists are in favor of a theocracy. "

I found this odd as well and had trouble reconciling it until someone explained it to me this way. Progressives and those further left of them view everything through the lens of oppressor and oppressed. It's very binary for them. In this case Palestinians are "oppressed" so even though Hamas represents an authoritarian regime who subjugates their own people while advocating for genocide and would in 95% of cases immediately slit the throat of any progressive who stepped foot in Gaza, the progressives see no issues with supporting them because they are "oppressed". It's a complete logical disconnect

"Call me crazy, but I don't think a gay, anti-fascist Satanist sent this." Have you been to Eugene or Portland lately? The message in the fentanyl (?) letters doesn't strike me as beyond belief.

@26 Not really. It seems to be a battle between what arbitrary self-serving magical line in history is legit. Unless you can find some proven descendants of the Hyksos, the first people in recorded history. Otherwise, it's just rando sets of descendants of red-handed conquerors.

Oops, sorry. It's the Stranger. So Palestinians are not rando descendants of red-handed conquerors, they are innocent natives. Recoded history is a lie created by CIS normative right-wing war criminals.

@6 is really leaning into the Jewish tropes…

tonnes more
including how
Israel Controlls
“our” Congress

How long until he tells about the protocols of the elders of Zion?

@26, @28: The closest thing we have to who decides “what arbitrary self-serving magical line in history is legit,” is the United Nations. The UN plan in 1948 proposed a two-state solution, which the Palestinian Arabs rejected. 75 years after attacking Israel failed them spectacularly, and with some repeats since, some Palestinians somehow still see it as an effective strategy.

It’s wild, watching the terms “ethnic cleansing,” and “genocide” thrown around irresponsibly by the Stranger et al. Had any other people, in any other place, at any other time in history, repeatedly chosen war and lost, the attacked country would likely have long ago taken all of the territory, and forcibly assimilated/expelled/eliminated the attackers. That Israel has not done so makes it a strange outlier. In abusing the terms “ethnic cleansing,” and “genocide,” it’s like the Stranger and the worldwide hard left went looking for the most opposite case they could possibly find.

@30 - this goes way back. God's apparently been giving people permission to kill other people since forever.

Jews were horrendously mistreated all over Europe, at least partly because they were not Christian. Remember that most European countries were essentially theocracies, and engaged in such kindly acts of spreading the Good Word as the Crusades and the Inquisition. This culminated in pogroms, general discrimination, and then the Holocaust. Without religion, it's likely none of that would have happened. And once it did, it's hard to blame Jews for wanting a country where they could be safe.

And it was not just the Jews who suffered at the hands of Christian theocracies. Ask the Moslems about said Crusades.

I'll leave the question of whether Israel is or is not a theocracy now to the rest of you. I genuinely don't know. But the Arab/Israeli fight sure as hell looks religiously based to me. And those are the very worst kind of wars.

@33: “… another perspective on the issue that might bring some nuance to yours other than Palestinians rejected a two state solution imposed on them by force by the British Mandate of Palestine.”

First, it was the UN’s plan they rejected.

Second, after some initial comments, in which I had warned about how the Stranger (and supportive commenters) were simply ignoring one side of the story, I decided to show them how playing just one side might look from the other direction. Other commenters have made similar points. Yet, even after the Stranger and supportive commenters have been screaming “GENOCIDE!!” for a full month, you appeal to someone who’s telling the other side to consider ‘nuance’. Priceless.

Third, this conflict has continued for 75 years. There exists a vast and detailed wealth of historical and recent books, movies, documentary TV series, etc. about it. Yet you cite an opinion piece from a source which, in this case, might be suspect. It reminds me of kristofarian, who here constantly mines opinion pieces (and comments upon them) rather than try for primary sources, academic studies, or any other independent source of actual facts. I view this as a huge red flag, perhaps a sign of someone who suspects or even knows facts are not on his side. (And even if there’s no dishonest intent, the lack of interest in hard information seems suspect, or at least not the best course of action.)

thank you
Garbby!

@38: After 75 years of this conflict, one point which should be obvious is that no one who claims to care about Palestinians actually ever does anything supportive of Palestinians. Sure, Qatar and Iran lavishly fund Hamas’ terrorism, but that’s to hurt Israel. (Via Hamas’ chronic and extensive use of human shields, this has hurt a lot of Palestinians as well. Again, the state sponsors of Hamas’ terrorism care not at all about harming Palestinians.) You write about the suffering of Palestinians. The vast wealth which funds Hamas’ terrorism cannot, apparently, be put toward alleviating the Palestinians’ misery. When Jordan controlled the West Bank, it simply annexed the territory outright; no amount of prior talk about an independent Palestinian state could cause Jordan to create one when it had the chance.

And there we find another pattern, which you continue here. Why is it upon Israel to show restraint? Where are the demands to Qatar and Iran, to stop funding Hamas? Where are the demands for Hamas to release the Israelis it kidnapped? Why the thunderous silence from the Stranger on these points?

I suggest you not worry overmuch about this conflict spreading. The regimes which fund Hamas’ terror do so, in part, because they don’t want trouble at home. Displacing the considerable anger they have justly earned from their subjects onto Israel is one thing; allowing any militancy at home is quite another. (And the military records of Israel’s past opponents suggest any direct attack should be carefully avoided; losing an optional war is a very good way for a regime to lose its home.)

Also, you might want to read up on the finer points of Christian eschatology. Israel needs to exist for the events in the Book of Revelation to start, and Israel will exist until the end of the world. The last thing our homegrown Rapture Right would want is an end to Israel!

@41, @42: That would have been better with a mention of Hamas’ use of human shields, and how that increases the civilian casualty count. From NATO’s report on Hamas’ use of human shields: “The objective of this strategy is to maximise the IDF’s casualties while protecting Hamas’ forces and infrastructure from the IDF’s military supremacy. This strategy accepts the possibility of civilian casualties, and even leverages these for internal and external propaganda.”

[…]

“These declarations, as well as others, demonstrate Hamas’ triumph in controlling the narrative. Hamas’ ability to control the narrative limits Israel’s strategic choices, and in doing so it causes reputational damage that limits any claim Israel might have regarding the fact the Hamas is considered a terrorist organisation. Pictures of dead civilians have the immediate and short-term impact of limiting Israel’s freedom to exercise retaliatory military power. As a further consequence of the use of such evocative images the international community places pressure on Israel to cease fighting (even if they did not initiate the conflict or if Israel’s national and military objectives were not achieved).“

(https://stratcomcoe.org/cuploads/pfiles/hamas_human_shields.pdf)

NATO published that in 2015, but the identical calls for cease-fire today show Hamas’ strategy continues to work. From this, we can conclude the more human shields Hamas uses, the better this strategy works, and thus the more human shields Hamas will use in future. Ironically, outsiders caring about civilian deaths in Gaza — but ascribing responsibility only to Israel — helps to create more civilian deaths in Gaza.

@Garb, @raindrop:

Citing one’s identity is one version of the logical fallacy, “the appeal to authority.” The writer should demonstrate knowledge of the topic, not merely claim the authority to speak based on (in this case) a family background he had no ability to choose.

Furthermore, if a writer cites his identity as a source of authority, then that invites a skeptical reader to deny the writer’s authority, by questioning the writer’s identity. It works both ways, and since it’s a logical fallacy in both directions, it has the same (zero) value.

This author states as fact items he has not established as fact, and probably could not so establish, even if he tried:

@42: “But in its desire for revenge, Israel is engaging in the mass killing of innocent civilians, largely children…”

What is the evidence for Israel acting from a “desire for revenge”? Hamas continues to hold hostages it kidnapped out of Israel. Israel has stated it is trying to rescue these hostages. What is the basis for doubting Israel’s sincerity in trying to recover abducted citizens?

“…mass killing of innocent civilians, largely children,”

How does the author know the ages of the persons killed? Is he relying upon Hamas to provide this data?

"In fact, Hamas could not have murdered so many innocent Israelis, if not for the complete security breakdown by Netanyahu’s government."

Any connection which might exist between the security failure on the ground and the elected leader of the government is, at this point, speculation at best. Stating as fact something which has not been established — and which may not even exist! — validates my point, above, about the dangers of confusing opinion with fact.

@49 "Furthermore, if a writer cites his identity as a source of authority, then that invites a skeptical reader to deny the writer’s authority, by questioning the writer’s identity,,,"
This is why we all ignore you, you toby and raindrop take the most extreme right wing positions while claiming to be Democrats while you voted for Hillary and once smoked pot at uni.

@50: “Okay, so despite the UN and the entire world legitimizing those figures and the images that go along with them,”

You might want to tell NPR, CNN, and the BBC about these independent verifications, because those organizations seem not to know about them:

“Israel is coming under mounting criticism for its actions in Gaza where more than 11,000 people have been killed, according to Palestinian officials, the vast majority of them civilians.”

(https://www.npr.org/2023/11/11/1212326333/proportionality-israel-gaza-war-war-crimes#:~:text=Israel%20is%20coming%20under%20mounting,vast%20majority%20of%20them%20civilians.)

“The Ministry of Health in Ramallah says more than 10,000 Palestinians have died in the military campaign launched in response by Israel.

“Palestinian authorities don’t make a distinction between combatants and civilians…”

(https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2023/11/07/middleeast/palestinian-israeli-deaths-gaza-dg/index.html)

“The Hamas-run health ministry in Gaza says more than 10,000 people have been killed in the Palestinian territory since Israel started bombing it last month.
More than 4,000 of those killed were children, the ministry said.”

(https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-67332684.amp)

That CNN story provides some context:

“Children are nearly half of all casualties
Gaza has one of the youngest populations in the world, with 47% under 18 years old, and the health ministry is reporting that as of November 6, 4,104 children have been killed.”

So, even if we take terrorists at their word, believe every number they give us, ignore everything they have done and every motivation they have to increase and to inflate those numbers, then the civilian death toll is still not “largely children.” You really, really need to stop citing opinions as facts.

(Note also that if Israel was bombing “indiscriminately,” we’d expect about 47 per cent of the victims to be children. Hamas own figures show ~40 percent.)

“And the far right Israeli government would never factor in revenge into the equation, it just wouldn't happen.”

Again, you really need to stop citing opinions as facts. It’s a long way from there to justifying the claim, “Israel” attacks Gaza for no other reason than a “desire for revenge.”

“You haven't had a single thing to say about innocent civilians being killed other than every single target is a Hamas human shield.”

“…the IDF’s military strikes in Gaza kill civilians, just as any military operation in a densely-populated area always will. And yes, American military aid to Israel makes us complicit in those civilian deaths.”

tensorna on October 20, 2023 at 10:57 AM

(https://www.thestranger.com/slog-am/2023/10/20/79219025/slog-am-ballard-shooting-kills-one-and-injures-three-biden-requests-74-billion-in-war-funds-somethings-rotting-in-this-colorado-funeral-h/comments/17)

While I’ve never claimed “every single target is a Hamas human shield,” it’s important to recognize Hamas regards every civilian in Gaza as a potential human shield, and did everything it possibly could to create all of this misery. We need to call Hamas on it, every time, without exception. (Why we don’t is beyond me.) We need to do every civilized thing we can to punish Qatar, Iran, Hamas, and everyone else responsible for this immediate situation.

former Middle Eastern
Bureau Chief, New
York Times:

The Horror, The Horror

Israel's genocidal attacks, which are killing hundreds of Palestinians a day, including some 160 children, have expanded to shelling the remaining hospitals in Gaza.

DOHA, Qatar: I am in the studio of Al Jazeera’s Arabic service watching a live feed from Gaza City. The Al Jazeera reporter in northern Gaza, because of the intense Israeli shelling, was forced to evacuate to southern Gaza.

He left his camera behind. He trained it on Al-Shifa hospital, Gaza’s largest medical complex. It is night. Israeli tanks fire directly towards the hospital compound. Long horizontal red flashes.

A deliberate attack on a hospital. A deliberate war crime. A deliberate massacre of the most helpless civilians, including the very sick and infants. Then the feed goes dead.

We sit in front of the monitors. We are silent. We know what this means. No power. No water. No internet. No medical supplies. Every infant in an incubator will die. Every dialysis patient will die.

Everyone in the intensive care unit will die. Everyone who needs oxygen will die. Everyone who needs emergency surgery will die. And what will happen to the 50,000 people who, driven from their homes by the relentless bombing, have taken refuge on the hospital grounds? We know the answer to that as well. Many of them, too, will die.

There are no words to express what we are witnessing. In the five weeks of horror this is one of the pinnacles of horror. The indifference of Europe is bad enough.

The active complicity by the United States is unfathomable. Nothing justifies this. Nothing. And Joe Biden will go down in history as an accomplice to genocide.

May the ghosts of the thousands of children he has participated in murdering haunt him for the rest of his life.

Israel and the United States are sending a chilling message to the rest of the world. International and humanitarian law, including the Geneva Convention, are meaningless pieces of paper.

They did not apply in Iraq. They do not apply in Gaza. We will pulverize your neighborhoods and cities with bombs and missiles. We will wantonly murder your women, children, elderly and sick. We will set up blockades to engineer starvation and the spread of infectious diseases.

You, the “lesser breeds” of the earth, do not matter. To us you are vermin to be extinguished. We have everything. If you try and take any of it away from us, we will kill you. And we will never be held accountable.

--Chris Hedges; NOV 11, 2023

https://chrishedges.substack.com/p/the-horror-the-horror?r=k7ee3

now
who’s
complicit?

For all of us who have served, Happy Veterans' Day!
Griz is 30 years and six months a U.S. Navy Gulf War veteran today.
Oh, how the time flies!

We
See
YOU:

"We need to do every civilized thing we can to punish Qatar, Iran, Hamas, and everyone else responsible for this immediate situation."

and not ONE
WORD concerning
fucking Israel's War Crimes

ONFUCKING GOING
WAR CRIMES

tentsey
you're on
the Wrong Side
of History. your A-
morality is Showing.

Thusly lies the problem

we let Sociopaths
and Psychopaths
run Corporations
& Governments

we should Not
be Surprised
when War
is Their
solution

What would it look like if you were standing on the wrong side of history? If there were a mass atrocity taking place presently which history will end up judging harshly in the future, and you were supporting the wrong side of it, what signs might you expect to see that that’s the case?

Well, I imagine you’d probably be seeing terrible news about what’s happening coming out every day that under normal circumstances would cause you to cry out in horror, but then you’d be getting a bunch of words and stories from your side explaining why those self-evidently terrible things are actually not what they appear to be.

If you found out thousands of children were being violently killed by your side in this mass atrocity, for example, you’d normally view that information as self-evidently terrible by itself, but then a bunch of narrative framing would come in explaining to you why that information isn’t damning for your side.

Blame for the deaths of those children would be placed on other parties. If your side was undeniably responsible for their deaths, their deaths would be framed as accidental tragedies which are the unavoidable consequence of military action, and are still indirectly attributable to the actions of the other side.

You’d see the raw data of what’s happening, and then an overlay of narrative would be rolled out on top of what you’re seeing to alter your perception of that data. And every time, the unaltered data would make your side look bad, while the data filtered through the narrative overlay would make your side look much better.

Over and over again you’d see this take place: information which at a glance makes it look like you’re on the wrong side of history, then a deluge of narratives helping you to understand that your eyes deceived you at first actually, and you’re on the right side of history after all.

Day after day after day this would happen: new terrible information that would normally make you feel bad about your position, followed by narrative framing which makes you feel better about your position.

We may be sure we could expect to see this because we live in a civilization that is dominated by narrative control. Powerful manipulators figured out a long time ago that because human consciousness is dominated by mental stories, if you can control the stories in their heads, you can control the humans.

They do this via propaganda and spin, with the wealthiest and most powerful people having the ability to exert the most control over the dominant narratives in our society.

In a sense this leaves us living in two worlds: the real world and the narrative world. The world of unfiltered sensory input controlled by no one, and the world of easily-manipulated mental stories controlled by the rich and powerful. Maturity is waking up out of the narrative world and learning to perceive reality as it’s actually happening.

--Caitlin Johnstone; Nov 11, 2023

https://www.caitlinjohnst.one/p/what-would-it-look-like-if-you-were?publication_id=82124&post_id=138795916&isFreemail=true&r=k7ee3

oh!
tell us
More
of your
Stories
Tentsey

We
Desperately
Wanna BELIEVE them

@60:
Again, what
Garbby said:

thank you
Auntie Gee.

nyt:

Iran and Saudi Arabia, Regional Rivals, Call for Gaza Cease-Fire

The leaders of both countries appeared to put aside their historical animosities at a summit to present a united stand against Israel’s bombardment of Gaza.

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/11/11/world/middleeast/iran-saudi-arabia-gaza-cease-fire.html

top readers’ comment:
@Scott ( et al ) Netanyahu and his cronies have gone way beyond retribution and are now in the same league as war criminals.

This is not a reflection on the Jewish religion or most of Israel's people. This has progressed beyond reason.

This kind of response was not to save the hostages but to promote an agenda.

It is time for a cease fire and end to this insanity.

--Gloria Lewis; Albuquerque NM

Agreed.

BiBi's
keep-the-Fuck-outta-PRISON
Plan's uniting the World:

Against BiBi
Nutnyahoo & his
Fellow War Criminals

(spin
That
tentsey

your
an 'expert.')

END the fucking
Genocide* in Palestine

*it
AIN'T
a fuck-
ing "WAR."

@What
where
am
I

look
Smidgens
further & maybe
see: Nutnyahoo and His
Desperate Ploy to walk Free
under HEAVY Scrutiny -- like el
trumpfster & His J/6 non-Jail Ploy*

anyway Bibi's enraged Israelis enough
to Spark the Biggest Protests in Israelian
HISTORY &'s trying to get his own Free Pass

BiBi's been working Hand-in-Hand
with Hamas yet your Types NEVER MEN-
TION IT. together they've Held Gazans Hostage
you can even ask tensety -- for nearly TWO FUCKING
DECADES. Nutnyahoo is fucking Complicit as Shite. like trumpfy

*and
now
he wants
his trial Broadcast

good thing he's got
his Own Hand-Picked
formerly-Supreme court

he'll
get Higher
Ratings in Prison
than the Apprentice/
YOU'RE FIRED ever Dreamed.

some
Network's
gonna Make
a Killing . and of
democracy but that's
just not their Focus friendos:

it's
ALL about
The Benjamin$

@63: “What would it look like if you were standing on the wrong side of history?”

You’d probably spend a lot of time finding opinions that agree with your opinions, mining comments which agree with your comments, and desperately dismissing any actual facts as “stories”.

more
'stories'
for your
Edification
from today's nyt:

For years, the various governments led by Benjamin Netanyahu took an approach that divided power between the Gaza Strip and the West Bank — bringing Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas to his knees while making moves that propped up the Hamas terror group.

The idea was to prevent Abbas — or anyone else in the Palestinian Authority’s West Bank government — from advancing toward the establishment of a Palestinian state.

Thus, amid this bid to impair Abbas, Hamas was upgraded from a mere terror group to an organization with which Israel held indirect negotiations via Egypt, and one that was allowed to receive infusions of cash from abroad.

Times of Israel 11-12-23

Netanyahu enabled Hamas because he didn't want a successful leadership for Palestinians. Work backwards, who calculated a win here. Netanyahu knew it was a win-win if he made any mistake.

He could claim Hamas brutality, that he setup, and get US sympathy and money. President Biden needs to act and stand for humanity-- Netanyahu embraced US for sympathy, has now rebuffed US because that sympathy waned.

-- That's What She Said; The West

@Charles Watson
So what revenge should the Palestinians take against Israel for the slaughter of thousands of Palestinians during 1948 ethnic cleansing of Palestine? By your standard, Hamas had every right to kill innocent Israelis.

As Moshe Dayan said in 1956 during his funeral oration for an Israeli farmer killed by a Palestinian--

"Let us not today fling accusation at the murderers. What cause have we to complain about their fierce hatred to us? For eight years now, they sit in their refugee camps in Gaza, and before their eyes we turn into our homestead the land and villages in which they and their forefathers have lived."
-- Gaius; Tampa

Netanyahu and many Israelis [a few folks here as well] seem to think that there is a finite number of Hamas terrorists, and if they can find and kill them, then everyone will feel safe again. Nothing could be further from the truth.

When a population is humiliated and terrorized, which are the most toxic emotions, many more ordinary citizens become terrorists as the only way of surviving. More are created than are killed. It is a continuation of the cycle of violence that never ends.

There is a reason that all religions, once we get past the rituals that people divide and kill each other over, talk about the core values of forgiveness and compassion.

These are what free is from our suffering and our ongoing violence. They do not condone or excuse what others have done, but they free us from our suffering and ongoing death and despair.

It’s time to shine a light in the darkness. Even a small candle can drive out of the darkness of a very large room. The power of darkness is to obscure that we even have a choice.  it’s time to choose love and light over death and destruction. 

--Concerned Citizen; San Francisco

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/11/12/opinion/gaza-family-killed-war.html#commentsContainer

“@19:
So, do
you believe
NYC is not part of
the United States, or do
you believe Gaza is part of Israel?

Is there ANY aspect to
this conflict in which
your beliefs do not
depend entirely
upon abject
ignorance?”

tensorna on November 10, 2023 at 12:12 PM Report this

your Insults tho gorgeous
your Narrative whilst
tortuous shows
your Utter Lack
of Decency to
I believe the
Majority
of Us

next time?
Dipshite?

quote
the whole
dang Thing.

[there.
that’s Insurance
you’re Never gonna
“quote the Whole dang thing.”]

no Matter how much
Better it is & That’s
just a Fact. Good
Day sir 😐.

your
Welcome ;)!

@72: That’s a reaaaaally weak dodge, even by your standards — especially when you had a day or two to think up your witty riposte.

Per your dodge — er, request, Here’s “the whole thing”:

“19
if Terrorsists
held NYC Hostage*
would We be okay with
Bombing NYC till the Final
Terrorist surrendered? hmmmm.

“*hell even tentsey
agrees Hama
holding Gazans
Hostage.”

So, again, do you believe NYC is not part of the US, or do you believe Gaza is part of Israel? Because your analogy isn’t, um, analogous otherwise.

But, I’ll play: in your “analogy,” how many rockets and mortars are the terrorists firing into New Jersey? How many inhabitants of Nassau County have been forcibly abducted and dragged into NYC as hostages?

weak
sauce.
pass.

@74: Ha!

Do the terrorists chant, “From Ossining to Rye, Americans goodbye!”?

Do they intend on driving out, or killing, every last American in just the Lower 48? Or do your terrorists also claim Alaska and Hawai’i, too?

re: Israeli War on Palestine / Gaza, and Russian War on Ukraine, etc.: Garb Garblar (especially @38!) for the WIN!!

@64 Garb Garblar, @65 kristofarian, and @69 raindrop: Thank you, and you're most welcome.

@73 and @75: Since your return to your home state, are you secretly wishing New York wasn't part of the U.S., anymore, tensy dear? I'm just asking for a friend. Texas has threatened to secede from the United States, hell bent on holding every woman and girl of reproductive age hostage. Do you not see how nuts this is?
'Tis time to quote Rodney King: "Can't we all just get along?"

@7 Garb Garblar: That is my biggest worry for 2024--that there is an escalating army of completely idiotic MAGA-zombies out there who, like the Taliban in Afghanistan, are hell bent on doing exactly that.
and @64 Garb Garblar and @65 kristofarian: Thank you both, too, on wishing me the best in music. It appears my biggest challenge is getting my composed music more widely recognized. I love movies and would love to score for film.

Griz couldn't sleep. I had to take a breather from the daily news.

@4 patL: omg LOL--how did I miss your brilliant post? I nominate both you and Garb Garblar @38 for the WIN!!

@54: “This is why we all ignore you,”

Addressing a comment directly is a strange way to “ignore” someone(s).

“… you toby and raindrop take the most extreme right wing positions…”

I can speak only for myself, but if citing facts from external sources, criticizing eliminationist rhetoric, and stating opposition to terrorists’ use of children as human shields all make for “extreme right wing positions” at the Stranger, then the Stranger has gone much further off the left end of the political spectrum than even I’ve suspected.

“… while claiming to be Democrats while you voted for Hillary and once smoked pot at uni.”

Again, speaking only for myself, I’ve never claimed to be a Democrat, but I have recognized — and urged others here to recognize — that on the issue of a woman’s right to control her own body, voting for Democrats is the only viable option. Voting for Hilary and smoking cannabis in school are both actions I am proud to have taken.

@76: I was asking about kristofarian’s analogy of NYC to Gaza, which he repeatedly made. It seems strange, because NYC is most definitely part of the US, whilst Gaza is not part of Israel. He hasn’t answered. Perhaps you could ask him for me?

I think you’re reading WAY too much into my requests for clarification.

more “comments mining”:

Some years ago The Empire Files’ Abby Martin put together a devastating critique of the Zionist ideology just by going around the streets of Jerusalem with a camera and a microphone and talking to Jewish Israelis about their views on Palestinians.

Over and over and over again they shared their support for tyranny, murder, genocide and ethnic cleansing in their own words and without hesitation, never thinking that their words could be used to harm Israel’s image, because to them these were just normal things that they said all the time in their day to day life.

Every time this happens it sends viral video footage around the internet and does real damage to the world’s perception of Israel. That’s a big part of why Israel is struggling to control the narrative about the Gaza massacre today, which is in turn being exacerbated by more incendiary statements by Israelis, not just from the general public but from within the Israeli government itself.

--Caitlin Johnstone

https://www.caitlinjohnst.one/p/israelis-keep-hurting-their-own-pr?publication_id=82124&post_id=138830965&isFreemail=true&r=k7ee3

some pretty lousy Israeli’s comments
can Not be Helping Israel’s
War on Gazans' public
Relations.

smalll Wonder the
Backlash to BiBi Nutnyahoo's
Keep-Outta-Prison scheme Worsens Plantewide.

@80: Did these intrepid documentary filmmakers also go to cities in the Arab countries, and maybe Europe as well, and ask the locals about their views on Jews and Judaism? A healthy respect for fellow humans and their religious beliefs would have ruled the results, no doubt.

(Also, have you some examples of some actual quotes from actual humans, showing some “support for tyranny, murder, genocide and ethnic cleansing in their own words and without hesitation,” or do your ‘sources’ simply never, ever contain any primary material of any kind whatsoever?)

speaking of Being on
the Right Side
of History:

Two Young Democratic Stars
Collide Over Israel and
Their Party’s Future

Representing neighboring districts in the Bronx,
Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez and Ritchie Torres have
staked sharply divergent positions on the Israel-Hamas war.

one reader’s comment:

AOC has got it right! As an 83-year-old Jewish American and grandson of a Holocaust family, AOC is right to call for both a cease-fire and the establishment of an independent, democratic, and hopefully neutral State of Palestine.

I can still remember how happy I was when President Harry Truman courageously bucked the opposition and recognized the State of Israel; and how we sang the Hatikvah, its national anthem in our synagogue.

But, after 75 years of conflict with its Arab neighbors and its captive Palestinian population, it's finally time to end the bloodshed, the recrimination, the reprisals, and the mutual blame by forever ending the conflict by implementing the "two-state solution" with the new State of Palestine within the 1967 borders guaranteed by an international peacekeeping force.

President Biden has made a historic mistake in embracing authoritarian, right-wing Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu who is creating a humanitarian catastrophe in Gaza by dropping 2.000 lb. bombs on the heavily populated Jabalia refugee camp--a clear war crime.

Hamas wants this war to expand and Netanyahu is doing everything that plays into their hands and create a major regional war. It's time to heed AOC and for President Biden to assume the mantle of his Democrat predecessors in promoting peace between Israel and the Palestinians.

-- Paul Wortman; Providence. Nov. 11

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/11/11/nyregion/aoc-torres-israel-gaza.html#commentsContainer

I'm sorry
tentsey what?

@83: I was just asking if you had a primary source — oops, lost you yet AGAIN, didn’t I?

your incessant Demands
for what was it? I've
Forgotten already
are Not my
concern.

@85: Which is why your incessant demands for the rest of us to take you seriously are not our concern, either.

@86 your pathetic
Insistence that YOU
speak for ALL Schlog-
gers is a Laughable as

it is Pathetic.

bugger Off
Wormtongue.
the Daily Storm
is Calling. go there.

@87: Apparently, Al-Jazeera couldn’t find anyone who read NATO’s report from 2015 on this topic, which discusses most of the points raised. (It also contains documentation of Hamas’ intentional and nonconsensual use of civilians as human shields, so asserting controversy exists over whether Hamas does this makes Al-Jazeera seem a bit underinformed.)

Interestingly, your linked article seems to update NATO’s term, “lawfare,” to “medical lawfare,” but accuses Israel, not Hamas, of using it. This makes for an implied reversal of the claims NATO makes in their report, but without recognizing NATO’s report itself.

Also of note at your link: “…an overwhelming majority of the 11,100 Palestinians killed in Israeli attacks are civilians, two-thirds of them women and children.”

As we know from CNN, quoted above @46, “Palestinian authorities don’t make a distinction between combatants and civilians…”, so how do we know “an overwhelming majority” (two-thirds? three-quarters? Some other fraction?) of those killed were civilians? As we also saw @56, the prior claim a majority of those killed were children did not hold up to scrutiny, so now the claim is two-thirds are women and children. (No statistics are even presented this time, oddly enough.)

Have we any independent source of casualty figures? @50 you implied we did, but you never supplied a citation.

“You’re saying
that because Hamas
doesn’t care about civilian
casualties, neither should Israel.

At
minimum,
that’s a highly
questionable moral stance.”

--Jerry Engelbach; Pátzcuaro, México

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/11/12/world/middleeast/gaza-hospitals-shifa.html#commentsContainer

"Morality"
can be
Quite
Fluid

@88 kristofarian: At this point I can't help but wonder if tensy wears camouflage and goes to bed with an AR-15, much like Linda Hamilton as Sarah Connor in T2: Judgment Day (1991), or a head shaven Robert De Niro as Vietnam combat veteran turned NYC cab driver Travis Bickle in Taxi Driver (1976).

@81, @84, @86, and @89: TMC? Is that why you're so tense, no matter what state you're in?
You DO actually sleep at some time of day, don't you?

@91
the Vibe
is DEF there
auntie Gee. but
see how Quickly he
can Turn that Around:

it's
Most
Instrucrive.

@91
the Vibe
is DEF there
auntie Gee. but
see how Quickly he
can Turn that Around:

it's
Most
Instructive.

gird Up
Grrrrrl

@90: “…because Hamas
doesn’t care about civilian
casualties, neither should Israel.”

At the risk of continuing to not be nearly simplistic enough for you to understand, the reality is Hamas views every last child, woman, old man, etc. in Gaza as a potential human shield, and so intentionally hides both terrorists and weapons behind civilians. This, in turn, makes Israel more likely to kill more civilians, and so we can’t simply say all [insert, without the slightest hint of question, today’s number from Hamas] who died should be blamed entirely upon Israel. As I have been telling you from the start, there is plenty of blame to go around. (Again, probably not simplistic enough of an explanation for your admittedly forgetful mind.)

@91: Look, sometimes you lose. I suggest you should probably find some better ‘explanation’ than just petulantly whining at the victor, “you’re a gun-fondling, right-wing fascist nut case,” or in kristofarian’s phrasing, “Fascist Fascist Facist Fascist Fasist Fascism Fast no backsies!!” Because it’s really getting very, very old, and as the Stranger may now almost be ready to consider noticing from Seattle’s election results, not working. You’re welcome.

“You DO actually sleep at some time of day, don't you?”

Why, it sounds as if you’re projecting, dear:

“Griz couldn't sleep. I had to take a breather from the daily news.

auntie grizelda on November 13, 2023 at 5:19 AM”

Perhaps you need some rest?

(Asking for a friend.)

nyt:
Democratic Aides
in Congress Break With
Their Bosses on Israel-Hamas War

A wave of current and former staff members,
mostly of a younger generation, are agitating
for a cease-fire and speaking out
against their bosses’ positions.

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/11/13/us/politics/democratic-aides-congress-israel-hamas.html

‘Bout Fucking Time
What TOOK You
So L o n g?

fuck the Geezers*

*full Disclosure:
Geezer here:
Older than
Dirt

does that make ME
an Anti-Geezerite?
Nope. just These
fucking Fools.

oh and piss off
wormtongue.

I AM Anti-
Wormtongues.

c'mom
Wormmy:
Keep up olde man!

frank d. trumpf
was NEVER
proud of
tfg djt

and it
Shows.

@95:

“Democratic Aides
in Congress Break With
Their Bosses on Israel-Hamas War”

Dude, you have GOT to force upon NYT the vast benefit of your infinite wisdom. As you’ve here shouted, it’s not a “war.” You best threaten not to mine any more of their comments until they snap back into your line!

But overall it’s good news. You may have Final-ly found a Solution to that little Question you so adroitly identified @6:

‘Israel Controlls
“our” Congress’

As @29 noted, and @31 implied, your mask has started to slip a little there… better be a bit more careful…

Tone Policing Opposition To Genocide

People
are trying to stop
an active genocide and the leaders
of western institutions keep trying to make
the conversation about whether or not those efforts are “antisemitic”, which none of them seem to be able to define in a way that is distinct from criticism of the Israeli government for war crimes and well-documented atrocities.

Really this is all just garden variety manipulation by the western empire to shut down opposition to the political status quo.

Any time a large movement emerges in opposition to the agendas of the ruling power structure you see the information ecosystem flooded with highly amplified concern trolls wagging their fingers at the tone and tactics of the movement to try and kill off the energy and drag the whole thing into inert pedantic quibbling.

[oh! my Gawd
that’s Precisely
Tentsores in a Nutshell]

And of course another reason the powerful place so much emphasis on politeness and etiquette whenever they are confronted is because they are all acutely aware that there are a whole lot more of us than there are of them, and that people can decide at any time to stop playing by the rules and simply tear down the ruling power structures which commit mass atrocities in their name.

As long as everyone’s worried about being perceived as sufficiently well-mannered, the people will never awaken to their true power.

--by Caitlin Johnstone
Nov. 14, 2023

tonnes more, brilliantly:

https://www.caitlinjohnst.one/p/tone-policing-opposition-to-genocide?

your
Mask
being
Off it's
Past Tiime
to just Bugger
the FUCK OFF Wormtongue:

WE
SEE
YOU.

More Than 400 U.S. Officials
Sign Letter Protesting Biden’s Israel Policy

The signers, representing some 40 government agencies, reflect growing internal dissent over the administration’s support of Israel’s military campaign in Gaza.

The letter, part of growing internal dissent over the administration’s support of the war, calls on the president to seek an immediate cease-fire in the Gaza Strip and to push Israel to allow humanitarian aid into the territory.

It is the latest of several protest letters from officials throughout the Biden administration, including three internal memos to Secretary of State Antony J. Blinken signed by dozens of State Department employees as well as an open letter signed by more than 1,000 employees of the U.S. Agency for International Development.

The signatories of the letter submitted on Tuesday and the one circulating among USAID employees are anonymous, the USAID letter explains, out of “concern for our personal safety and risk of potentially losing our jobs.” The signatories of the State Department dissent cables must disclose their names, but those cables have not been released publicly.

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/11/14/us/politics/israel-biden-letter-gaza-cease-fire.html

tentsey
keep calling
for MORE Genocide

your
Fascism
is showing.

@25: “Progressives and those further left of them view everything through the lens of oppressor and oppressed. It's very binary for them.”

Thank you for that explanation. This also explains why commenters here seem committed to keeping Israel in the role of colonialist/imperialist occupier and Palestinians in the role of victims. Not as victims of Hamas, and of Hamas’ violent provocations of Israel, which Palestinian civilians certainly are, but as victims of Israel and of Israel alone.

We see this @33, where Garb states incorrectly, “…Palestinians rejected a two state solution imposed on them by force by the British Mandate of Palestine.” I had already given the correct version, in which Britain vacated their Mandate on the schedule set by the United Nations, then the Palestinian Arabs rejected the UN’s two-state solution, and attacked Israel. Reality does not fit the “Palestinians as victims” mold, so he simply re-wrote it to make them victims of British imperialism.