Editors: A necessity, not a luxury.

Here's an article from a military historian about modern combat in urban settings and the civilian casualties thereof. One of the interesting points is that even if you use the IDF casualty numbers, the IDF kills noticeably more civilians (as a ratio of enemy combatants killed) than the US was in Iraq. Like 3-5 times worse than the battles of Mosul and Fallujah. But hey, the IDF is better than the Russians or WWII Japanese, so that's worth something, right?

https://acoup.blog/2023/12/08/fireside-friday-december-8-2023/

nyt:
What is the Path to Peace in Gaza?

After Hamas’s depraved attack and the unfathomable destruction of Palestinian life, infrastructure and society in Gaza by the Israeli military offensive, any hope for the territory feels far away.

But once the guns fall silent and Gazans are allowed to contemplate the reconstruction of their shattered home, the time will come when Israelis, Palestinians and the rest of the world must wrestle with the future of Gaza and its people.

Times Opinion reached out to thinkers, political leaders and experts for their vision of what might meet the moment.

Because in the end, two neighboring groups of millions of people must find a way to live their lives. Here are 10 ideas for a path forward.

more:
https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2023/12/12/opinion/gaza-israel-palestinians-plans.html?login=smartlock&auth=login-smartlock

one nyt’s reader’s comment
on the article, above:

I think it is useful to keep in mind that this terrible state of affairs is exactly where both Hamas and Likud [Nutnyahoo’s far right wing party] want to be.

For decades, they have been mutually co-dependent in achieving their main goal - avoid a 2 state solution at all cost.

Hamas never ceased fighting for the elimination of Israel, and Likud keeps chewing up the West Bank. Both Hamas and Likud are equally dead set against a 2-state solution or indeed any peaceful resolution.

Note that the stated Israeli goal of "eliminating Hamas" is illusory - you can't "eliminate" a popular movement. The only way out is to get rid of both Hamas and Likud.

Lloyd Austin said it perfectly: "In this kind of a fight, the center of gravity is the civilian population. And if you drive them into the arms of the enemy, you replace a tactical victory with a strategic defeat."

I agree that Hamas has to be eliminated, but all Israel is achieving is recruiting the next Hamas generation, and we will be back to where the extremists on both sides want to be: a permanent state of unresolvable conflict.

We need a decisive push by the entire world, and first and foremost the US, to set a realistic path to a 2 state solution that offers the Palestinians a worthwhile goal to work towards, instead of dead ends like Hamas and their ilk.

And Netanyahu and the Likud need to be kicked off the stage.

--Cbum; Baltimore

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2023/12/12/opinion/gaza-israel-palestinians-plans.html?login=smartlock&auth=login-smartlock#commentsContainer

stop the Bombing
end the Genocide.

Instead of “instead,” why not read both “Heartbreak City” and “The Boys in the Boat?” Life doesn’t always have to be a series of either/or decisions … nor, despite Ashley’s rowing experience, is there a need to be beware of all boys in boats.

(Full disclosure: I was a boy in a boat.)

What @4 said and The Boys in the Boat is a great movie. And book.

Maybe The Stranger should spearhead a campaign to have a movie made about Helene Madison.
Launch a petition. Maybe hold a sit in someplace.

I think that any Stranger writer’s position on the man in the boat is more relevant than how they feel about the boys.

@6 thanks for that link.

The day after the Oct 7 attack, pundits were quick to point out that the number of Israelis (and others) killed that day would equal, as a proportion, 40,000 Americans (nevermind that killing 40,000 Americans on US soil would obviously be a much larger operation).

Israeli forces have killed around 18,000 Palestinians, or around .9 percent of the population, equal to around 332,000,000 American lives. Yet not once have I seen this comparison made.

I suspect it is because those who touted the former statistic see Israelis as directly comparable to Americans, but Palestinians are not.

War crimes, crimes against humanity, and genocidal polices are creating future generations of conflict. Israel must be taken to account for its behavior.

@6: “…the IDF kills noticeably more civilians (as a ratio of enemy combatants killed) than the US was in Iraq. Like 3-5 times worse than the battles of Mosul and Fallujah.”

Yes, Hamas’ long-standing policy of using Gazans as human shields is very, very effective in getting those civilians killed. Their policy of using these civilian deaths for propaganda against Israel also seems to be working great, as your comment shows.

Perhaps we need international protests to defund Hamas, and send Hamas members to trial?

@4 your boy is already funding more of trumps ridiculous wall after he said he wouldn't. that's plenty of compromise.

why is the ask never on Republicans to compromise? Nah lets see how much further right Democrats can go!

WHY was the IDF raining White Phosphorus down on a tiny Lebanese village? Anything to do with Hezbollah firing artillery into Israel from that location?

@13 332,000, not 332,000,000, but your point stands.

@14 The Islamic State used human shields extensively in the battle of Mosul, and the US still did about 3x better at avoiding civilian casualties than the IDF. Oh, and let's not forget that this is using the IDF's civilian casualty numbers. While I don't take Hamas' numbers at face value either, reality is likely to be somewhere in between because both sides have incentives to put their thumbs on the scale. Using the IDF's own numbers, you get a ratio of civilian casualties to military casualties on the order of the USSR's capture of Berlin in 1945. It wouldn't take that many more civilian casualties to be on the order of Assad's siege of Aleppo. Even so, "We're doing a great job, just like the Red Army!" isn't the best look.

By all means, defund Hamas. That will require Netanyahu deciding to cut off the cash flow from Qatar to Hamas. Up until a few days before 10/7, Netanyahu's government explicitly approved money going directly to Hamas in Gaza. And yes, send members of Hamas to war crimes trials. Despite your fevered imagination, I've never been against either of those things. Of course, if you open that can of worms, you might have to ask some difficult questions about Israel's practices of rounding up civilians in the West Bank and Gaza.

@1: The part of the movie set in Germany is only about the last 1/5th or so.

@17: “The IDF could drop a nuke and you would still call every civilian and child killed a Hamas human shield.”

Dropping a nuke on a densely-populated civilian area would be very the definition of a war crime, as would be the use of white phosphorus in a civilian area. Each would require a full investigation as a war crime.

(When you find yourself making up facts to support your arguments, perhaps you should check on whether you have good arguments?)

@18: Hamas has operated in Gaza for far longer than the Islamic State had operated in Mosul. Hamas has been using human shields in Gaza for far longer than the Islamic State had time to use them. Like any other skill, effectiveness improves with time and experience. All you’re telling us is that Hamas is very effective at getting civilians killed in Gaza. Thank you for supporting my point @14.

“…defund Hamas. […] I've never been against either of those things.“

But those things are not the topic you chose, are they? Eliminating Hamas would also eliminate the problems you identified, so why not just go straight to the source?

@20: that's how Stefanik would spin it.

the trap she laid at the hearing is contingent on whether "from the river to the sea Palestine must be free" is an explicit call for genocide or a call for Palestinian freedom. seems to me that it's at least debatable.

So based on your statement (#22) the US was investigated for war crimes after world war II?

@24: If you’re referring to use of white phosphorus, it was not illegal at that time. If you’re referring to the destruction of Dresden, there were at least protests by Conservative MPs in London against it. If you’re referring to widespread civilian deaths in Germany as a result of bombings whilst attacking military targets, that was collateral damage, not a war crime (neither then nor now).

Clooney is a crowd pleaser – no doubt. I think he goes to some lengths to be agreeable with most, and when he disagrees, makes no big show about it. He gives you what you want in a film personality, but I don’t think he’s disingenuous. He comes from a pretty straight up, hard-working family. His aunt Rosemary made him do yard work instead of loafing around the house. He’s just a nice, for real guy with a wonderful sense-of-humor. Says a lot, I think, that he would pick the UW/US Olympic rowing team as reason for a cinematic journey. And I have loved almost every performance and project he’s done. It stays with you forever. “Michael Clayton” will stay with me forever.

Yeah, I’ll have to defer to you guys about rowing teams and the attitudes within. I do remember watching – rather breathlessly – the rowing teams practicing on Lake Washington during the 1990 Goodwill Games. Sigh. Que bello!

Happy SCOTUS saw the light of day about forced conversion therapy and put that sick shit down in Tacoma back in his place (a psychology booth outside Ross Dress for Less).

No mention of the great Jack Smith asking SCOTUS to put the kibosh on Trump’s weaselly ways of postponing THE TRIAL. I guess the defense plan is to gum up the works with appeals every time the presiding judge (Tanya S. Chutkan) opens her mouth with any kind of ruling thereby delaying the trial’s start until after the election, and if Trump wins, he can either pardon himself or stop all federal cases against him. Smith is asking SCOTUS to fast-track a decision on whether or not a president is immune from federal prosecution for crimes he committed while in office – which is the Trump team’s stance. The appeals process could go on for months without a ruling. Smith, in essence, is trying to chop Trump off the vine of avoidance which could run on past election day. Smith needs this ruling to keep the March 4 start date on track.

A lot can happen in a year, but it ain’t looking good, is it? I’m not going to be able to live in a fascist Christian Nationalist country headed by a dangerous, narcissistic clown. And I don’t know to where I can run.

@18, yes of course, thanks, my bad on the typo -- I'm sick and bedridden and my brain is foggy.

15: “why is the ask never on Republicans to compromise?”

Because they will not compromise, even if it means burning everything and everyone down, and as noted earlier, anyone in their party even appearing as possibly compromising is thrown out. There is a reason why Catalina’s quote about Republicans being horrible people gets repeated.

Lots of news about how the Jews are defending themselves but not a word about what Hamas and Hezbollah are up to. Not even a word about who or how many H&H have already killed/Raped/Tortured just for fun.
Nope. No bias in the reporting here. Just numbskull reporting.

@22 The IDF has been nominally trying to destroy Hamas for what, 50+ years now? And it looks like Hamas is still around. So clearly the length of time at their job doesn't indicate increasing skill at that since Hamas seems to be getting stronger. That leaves us with a few options:
- The IDF is shit at their job of destroying Hamas and isn't getting better
- The IDF isn't really trying to destroy Hamas (maybe the Qatari cash they let through to Hamas is an indicator that this might be accurate)
- It's extremely difficult to destroy an insurgency via military action (see also US vs. ISIS, Al Qaeda, Viet Cong, etc., UK vs. IRA, pick any of dozens of other examples)

If you have another explanation for why the IDF hasn't managed to destroy a group of ~10-15K soldiers in 50 years and several IDF invasions of Gaza, go right ahead and posit it. Cite your evidence while you're at it. Me, I'm going to go with a combination of the last two, as backed by historical evidence.

I spoke about the Qatari cash for Hamas that Netanyahu approved within a few days of 10/7 when it first came to light in the international press. It's not my fault it took two more months to make it to the US mainstream. I spoke about civilian casualties above because there was a topical and informed piece of news (ie the blog post cited) that talked about civilian casualties and gave some interesting historical parallels. Parallels that indicate that the IDF is not doing the stellar job of preventing civilian casualties that they say they are.

When has destroying an insurgency via military might actually worked long term?

If Hamas is prosecuted for war crimes, should Israel also be investigated for war crimes, either in Gaza or the West Bank? Is it even possible, in your mind for Israel to commit war crimes in Gaza?

Do you support defunding Hamas? If so, how do you square that with your support of the Israeli government that has allowed Qatari funding for Hamas?

@32 Hamas has not been around since before the Yom Kippur War (Hamas was found in 1988, articulated its ideology as a struggle against Jews, calling for the destruction of Israel to establish an Islamic Palestinian state in its place).

But I forgot, this is about Zionist, not Jews - everyone loves Jews.

And as for civilian deaths, it would seem the best approach would be for Hamas to surrender which would remove the pretext for further IDF action.

@31: “Lots of news about how the Jews are defending themselves but not a word about what Hamas and Hezbollah are up to.”

And the people criticizing Israel for attempting to stop more rape attacks seem to get really, really pissy when anyone mentions Hamas, as this thread shows. (They seem to believe such unpleasantness demonstrates their moral superiority…)

@32: “If you have another explanation for why the IDF hasn't managed to destroy a group of ~10-15K soldiers in 50 years and several IDF invasions of Gaza, go right ahead and posit it.”

Hamas was founded in 1987 (https://www.britannica.com/topic/Hamas). If you need additional explanation for the IDF’s total lack of success in destroying Hamas 50 years ago, please do let me know.

“When has destroying an insurgency via military might actually worked long term?”

“The Huk Rebellion was finally put down through a series of reforms and military victories by Magsaysay, who became the seventh President.” (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hukbalahap_Rebellion)

“If Hamas is prosecuted for war crimes, should Israel also be investigated for war crimes, either in Gaza or the West Bank?”

Sure, although I’ll admit I don’t understand why one would depend upon the other.

“Is it even possible, in your mind for Israel to commit war crimes in Gaza?”

In my mind, war crimes are possible wherever there is war. Therefore, the best way to prevent war crimes is to prevent war. In this case, that means to destroy a terrorist organization which has weaponized rape and kidnapping.

“Do you support defunding Hamas?”

Um, that’s what I clearly advocated @14. (I think I may now have an idea as to exactly where your confusion about my views originates…)

“…how do you square that with your support of the Israeli government…”

When did I demonstrate “support of the Israeli government” in any way other than noting it has the obligation to protect citizens from terrorism?

“…Israeli government that has allowed Qatari funding for Hamas?”

Leaders of Hamas reside right in Qatar, so I’m not sure how Qatar needs Israel to “allow” Qatari aid to Hamas terrorists. I suppose if Israel did have the opportunity to deny Qatari aid to Hamas, the Israeli government should have so denied it. How would that one-time denial have prevented Qatar from continuing to support known terrorists?

“I spoke about civilian casualties above because there was a topical and informed piece of news (ie the blog post cited) that talked about civilian casualties and gave some interesting historical parallels. Parallels that indicate that the IDF is not doing the stellar job of preventing civilian casualties that they say they are.”

Well, ok, but again, if there was no Hamas, then there would be no Israeli war against Hamas in Gaza, and you wouldn’t have to research the issue at all, right? How about researching ways to destroy Hamas, and advocating for some of them here? I mean, you do have freedom of choice in what you read and comment, don’t you?

@33: yes I could imagine that.

@35 The claim is not that Israel cannot engage in any operations that create civilian casualties. The claim is that Israel is (a) claiming that they're doing a great job at preventing civilian casualties and (b) not doing that great a job at preventing civilian casualties. By the way, did you read the link? It lists a long set of reasons why infantry assaults tend to have fewer civilian casualties than artillery or airstrikes, at least as long as the infantry aren't shooting civilians en masse because they feel like it.

@36 Oh my, there's ... just ... so ... much here.

For starters, I offer my absolute deepest apologies for not looking up the founding date of Hamas. But the greater question remains. Israel has known that Hamas is intent on their destruction for the last 30 years. Hamas has repeatedly fired at Israel, and Israel has invaded Gaza several times in that timeframe and yet Hamas remains. Is the IDF just bad at their job?

“The Huk Rebellion was finally put down through a series of reforms and military victories by Magsaysay, who became the seventh President.”

That was an interesting read, but I don't think that the Wikipedia article says what you think it does. Pro tip: The "reforms" were negotiated. Before that last round of negotiations, there was a general amnesty for the Huks. That means that the insurgency wasn't put down by military force alone--it was a combination of political and military action. Which was exactly my point--you can't put down an insurgency with bombs alone. At some point you have to talk.

"Um, that’s what I clearly advocated @14. [snip] Leaders of Hamas reside right in Qatar, so I’m not sure how Qatar needs Israel to “allow” Qatari aid to Hamas terrorists. I suppose if Israel did have the opportunity to deny Qatari aid to Hamas, the Israeli government should have so denied it. How would that one-time denial have prevented Qatar from continuing to support known terrorists?"

You clearly haven't been paying attention over the past few days. Israel has been allowing the Qatari government to send Hamas cash-filled suitcases for years, totaling hundreds of millions of dollars. It started in 2018 under Netanyahu's premiership, and continued to 10/7, with the last payment a few days before the attacks. Israel expressly allowed that money to go through its checkpoints into Gaza, to be delivered to Hamas.

https://www.cnn.com/2023/12/11/middleeast/qatar-hamas-funds-israel-backing-intl/index.html

"When did I demonstrate “support of the Israeli government” in any way other than noting it has the obligation to protect citizens from terrorism?"

Ahahahahaha! Oooo boy, you're precious. Today? Maybe not. But yesterday @49 you described the IDF as a good military trying to avoid civilian casualties. [as noted above, not trying any harder than the Red Army taking Berlin, but hey, who's counting?] @39 was pretty positive too, comparing Israel at present to the US and UK in WWII.

"How about researching ways to destroy Hamas, and advocating for some of them here? I mean, you do have freedom of choice in what you read and comment, don’t you?"

Since when do you get to decide what I comment? And you may or may not have noticed, but I have made comments on how to defang Hamas. Several times. Since 10/7. By actually engaging in a peace process in the West Bank and illustrating that being in a cooperative relationship with Israel is mutually beneficial to Israel and Palestine. But since that means that Israel would no longer be able to randomly steal Palestinian land at will (not to mention giving back land already stolen), it's unacceptable in current discourse in Israel. Another option would be to actually annex the West Bank and Gaza and give the Palestinians living there voting rights.

@36 Your claims of not supporting Israel would be a lot more credible if you didn't leap into action at the slightest criticism of Israel. Just about any time there's any criticism of Israel or their conduct of the war in Gaza, you leap in with the "But Rape!" argument. As if there's no way for anyone to simultaneously believe that Hamas raping and murdering Israeli citizens is bad and also that maybe it would be nice if Israel didn't kill quite so many civilians? You know, by doing stuff like telling Gazan civilians to go to "safe areas" and then bombing those "safe areas"?

And immediately after engaging in the whatabout, you have the gall to say that anyone else is up to their eyeballs in whataboutism.

'And immediately after engaging in the whatabout, you have the gall to say that anyone else is up to their eyeballs in whataboutism.'

he'll Always be
Wormtongue
to me. it's
a Gift
he's
got.

@38: ‘The "reforms" were negotiated. Before that last round of negotiations, there was a general amnesty for the Huks.’

Yes, for that conflict, as in many conflicts, reforms and amnesty can be elements of a negotiated settlement. Do you think such elements might have a greater or lesser chance of success if backed up by “military might,” which was also the case in that example?

“That means that the insurgency wasn't put down by military force alone--it was a combination of political and military action.”

As is true in many cases, yes.

“Which was exactly my point--you can't put down an insurgency with bombs alone.”

You’ve now used the word “alone” twice in your dismissal of that example, although you didn’t use it at all in your question. Had you used it, I might have spent more than 30 seconds in looking up an answer which involved an ally of the United States.

“…the IDF as a good military trying to avoid civilian casualties.”

Which, in the circumstances, it has been.

“…as noted above, not trying any harder than the Red Army taking Berlin, but hey, who's counting?”

What remained of local authority in Berlin tried very hard to limit civilian casualties, including construction of steel-reinforced concrete “flak towers” in the Berlin Zoo and other areas, and civilians were ordered to take refuge there. By contrast, Hamas operates in a manner designed to maximize civilian casualties among both Israelis and Gazans. Other than demonstrating the moral inferiority of Hamas to Germans under Naziism, I don’t quite know what your point is here.

“Since when do you get to decide what I comment?”

I don’t, and so did not claim to. I am genuinely curious as to why eliminating the source of the conflict seems to hold less of your interest than getting into detailed arguments over the resultant casualty figures. I’ve wondered about this since the start of the conflict, about everyone protesting Israeli action. Why wouldn’t any liberal Westerner want Hamas destroyed on principle, let alone as the proximate cause of all the suffering you decry? I didn’t mean to make it sound personal, and I apologize if I did, but I am genuinely curious.

Gaza Is De-
liberately Being
Made Uninhabitable

Infectious diseases are tearing through Gaza, whose healthcare system has been rendered almost nonexistent, and people are beginning to starve in massive numbers.

All of this is due to concrete policy decisions made by Israel in its horrific assault on the Gaza Strip.

In an article titled “Gaza’s health system is ‘on its knees’ as Israel pushes into Khan Younis,” The Washington Post reports that the mass displacement of nearly two million Palestinians in Gaza has led to overcrowding and unsanitary living conditions that are rapidly giving rise to disease.

“Meanwhile, the Gaza Health Ministry and other medical workers said they were recording new cases of acute hepatitis, scabies, measles and upper respiratory infections, mostly among children,” the Post reports.

“Infectious diseases are spreading fast, said Imad al-Hams, a physician at the Kuwaiti Hospital in Rafah, as people crowd into tiny slivers of land to escape advancing Israeli forces.”

In a recent interview with CNN, Doctors Without Borders emergency coordinator Marie-Aure Perreaut described conditions in Gaza as “apocalyptic”, saying living conditions at the Al-Aqsa Hospital she’s working from “can barely be described as living conditions anymore.”

“The healthcare system is completely collapsed at the moment,” Perreaut told Al Jazeera.

The UN World Food Programme reports that half of Gaza’s population is now starving due to Israeli siege warfare and the collapse of civilian infrastructure. In northern Gaza that figure goes up to nine in ten.

--Caitlin Johnstone; Dec 12, 2023

https://www.caitlinjohnst.one/p/gaza-is-deliberately-being-made-uninhabitable?publication_id=82124&post_id=139740561&isFreemail=true&r=k7ee3

our tax dollars
at Work. End the
Madness mr President

If you truly wanna
Protect Israel do
The Right Thing

& maybe
Dems Win.

oh, good
he Heard me
nyt:

Biden Warns Israel It Is ‘Losing Support’ Over War

President Biden’s words exposed a widening rift between his administration and that of Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu as casualties rise in Gaza.

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/12/12/world/middleeast/biden-israel-netanyahu-gaza.html

them too!

The U.N. General Assembly demanded an immediate cease-fire in the Israel-Hamas war in an overwhelming vote.

About three-quarters of the body’s members voted in favor of the nonbinding resolution. The result underscored the isolation of Israel and the United States.

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/12/12/world/middleeast/un-general-assembly-israel-cease-fire.html

Israel's
Apologists're
Electing el trumpfster.

@43:

“Gaza Is De-
liberately Being
Made Uninhabitable”

Finally! Your girlfriend has noticed Hamas’ theft of humanitarian aid from Gaza’s civilian population!

Wait, what?

(Yeah, ok, you’re right. At this point, only a “brain-dead” person could believe she’d actually care in the slightest about that…)

yeah, no, bugger
off Wormtongue

from @44: two of the
three Top readers’ picks:

It’s time
our elected officials –
on both sides - represent the wishes
of the majority of Americans who want a ceasefire.

Biden clearly recognizes
the threat to his chances of winning
the next election and is now, finally, tempering his support of Netanyahu.
--MH; New York

Israel needs to and
absolutely has a right to
defend itself, but it makes choices.

It’s making unconscionable,
cruel choices and I am tired of
hearing that Hamas has made this
campaign of destruction Israel’s only option.

The extreme difficulty or (more likely)
impossibility of eliminating Hamas
does not mean that Israel can take
whatever actions it wants and
say the brutality is justified.
--A; MN

@MH When
a capital crime
is committed in New York,
law enforcement pursues the
killers, not every resident of New York.

Israel wants all the residents punished.
--Jack; East Coast

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/12/12/world/middleeast/biden-israel-netanyahu-gaza.html

the World’s
Done with ya
BiBi. either break
out the Nukes or go

Directly to Jail.
dont pass go
& don't Col-
lect $50
either.

tentsey
you'll be
certain to
Justify the
Nukes, yes?

olde
Reliable!
& thnx 4 Playing.

(Yeah, ok, you’re right. At this point, only a “brain-dead” person could believe you'd actually care in the slightest about the horrific shitshow that is now Gaza -- an Humanitarian Crisis -- and focus instead on Caitlin Johnstone whose message is so Thoroughly Invisible -- along with Gazans' horrific Suffering -- to you.)

there.
Fixed it
for ya.

better
call it a
night olde man

you
gotta be
Up in 3 1/2 hrs.

Men should NOT be deciding a woman's fate regarding abortions, especially in the cases of rape, incest, and if the woman's / girl's life is at stake---PERIOD!
Are Texas legislators high on stupid pills??
RepubliKKKans and their rabidly pro-hate MAGA tools are horrible excuses for people.

Shout out to Seattle Olympic gold medalist swimmer, Helene Madison!

@14/ten, whatabout yer whataboutism?

@22 The IDF has been nominally trying to destroy Hamas for what, 50+ years now... The IDF has been trying to destroy Palestine since whenever. Hamas is relatively new and they are around only as long as (Israel) funds them.

tension wrote: ..."How about researching ways to destroy Hamas, and advocating for some of them here? "

How about Israel grab 750k Palestinians and hold them as human shields in Israel. As you keep pointing out, they are human shields already, so they are probably good at it. They can go back to the houses they were forced out of. Then if Hamas launches a rocket, the chances of them killing an Palestinian is much higher. I think everyone would be happy if Hamas stopped launching rockets and this would a way to achieve it.
Naturally the pro ethnic cleansing crowd will go on about Hamas not caring about Palestinian civilians. Israel actually demonstrates their disregard for their fellow country folk by using F16s and bombs to try and free the hostages.

Re: “The Boys in the Boat”
1) So Ashley, you know it’s OK to call the 1936 Olympic Games “the Berlin Olympics”, like the rest of the world does, right? Hitler was there, as Chancellor of the host country, but he wasn’t personally setting up the hurdles or passing out towels to the runners… so not really “the Hitler Olympics”.
2) Clooney is an amazing actor and producer, and he likes to tell stories that illuminate parts of our history and culture that folks aren’t familiar with. This particular film is barely tangentially related to WWII, since the Anschluss of Austria didn’t happen for another two years.
3) The Stranger really needs to stop paying Ashley to indulge her interest in trashy/schlocky pop songs and music videos.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_IB5EYuz3XM&t=6s

@57

Israel
CANNOT
Bomb its way to Peace

Cap'n.

its* War Crimes
notwithstanding.

*all This
just to keep
Nutnyahoo outta Prison.

@42 Because the process of ending an insurgency through political and military means looks very different from what the IDF is doing. For starters, the Huks were given a general amnesty for insurgents who laid down weapons. Would you support a general amnesty for Hamas militants who lay down arms? Even if they raped someone? By all means, go ahead and try to find an insurgency that was ended via military action alone. I'm guessing it'll be a long time.

I've actually proposed several solution to the conflict at various points, including in this thread (eg two state solution, Israel stops stealing land and gives the West Bank back enough to make it a viable state, or one state solution where Israel annexes the West Bank and Gaza but gives the Palestinians universal suffrage). It's theoretically possible that you've proposed a solution to the conflict. Remind me again what your solutions are?

@54 You do know about the large numbers of Palestinians arrested in the occupied territories and being held in Israel, right? and that there's a very large difference between Israeli Arabs (who do live and work in Israel) and Palestinians (who have very highly restricted movement and employment prospects in Israel).

@59: Hamas exists to prevent all solutions wherein Israel continues to exist, so before we talk about implementing any such solutions, Hamas must be rendered ineffective, irrelevant, or non-existent. As we’ve noted, military might is just one tool for this. Other possibilities include: refusing to recognize passports from selected persons in Qatar and Iran, sanctions on those countries (although Iran already endures a sanctions regime) foreign asset seizures of nationals found funding Hamas, etc. There’s a lot protesters could be demanding, instead of just abusing the word “genocide” to try and get Hamas a breather.