Over the weekend, protesters and victims of police violence demonstrated outside the West Precinct downtown to call attention to Kandula's case. STREETPHOTOJOURNALISM

Comments

1

"UNITED NATIONS OATH OF OFFICE

I solemnly declare and promise to exercise in all loyalty, discretion
and conscience the functions entrusted to me as an international
civil servant of the United Nations, to discharge these functions
and regulate my conduct with the interests of the United Nations
only in view, and not to seek or accept instructions in regard to the
performance of my duties from any Government or other source
external to the Organization. I also solemnly declare and promise to
respect the obligations incumbent upon me as set out in the Staff
Regulations and Rules."

https://www.un.org/en/ethics/assets/pdfs/Attachment_2_EN_Putting%20Ethics%20to%20Work.pdf

2

Galoshes would probably be more effective than goulashes in the rain.

For the discussion about the UNRWA employees, was Kenworth Trucks responsible for Gary Ridgway's killing spree? If not, why would the UNRWA be responsible for what their employees did outside work?

3

"Without evidence, the document stated, "Seven stormed into Israeli territory, including two who participated in kidnappings.""

I see TS is already going to cast doubt on the veracity of the claims despite the fact the UN itself (who doesn't really have a great track record of taking action) felt the evidence was compelling enough to fire the accused members. Sad.

4

If you're downloading someone on a Gondola you're supposed to radio the bottom station and let them know which car has a passenger. JFC, Heavenly.

5

If your source for the UNRWA item was the AP story you linked to, it did not say the info on the 12 UNRWA employees' being part of the Oct 7 massacre was without evidence. It said that Israel's claim that 190 UNRWA employees were Hamas or Islamic Jihad was without evidence. Please fix, unless you have another source.

6

@3: Or the UN regarded the US request as a threat to end funding to UNRWA if the employees we accused weren’t let go, and decided our money was more important than investigating and adjudicating this personnel matter properly.

@2: If Kenworth Trucks had been receiving government funds to ensure the health and well-being of sex workers on the SeaTac strip, then yes, they probably should have fired Ridgway for killing some of those workers. (At the very least, they should have investigated exactly why his co-workers kept calling him, “Green River Gary.”)

7

Have the Israelis arrested any of the UNRWA employees they accuse of participating in the Oct. 7 attacks? Or were they among the 100+ UNRWA employees killed in the latest war on Gaza?

8

@1 And the consequences for not following the UN ethics guideline is termination of employment. Which has already happened. Weren't you the one who was saying that the UN doesn't have a police force and can't enforce any actions by (for example) the ICJ? So what else was UNRWA supposed to have done?

@3 What part of that is inaccurate? Did the document provide evidence that the UNRWA employees were involved in 10/7? Sure, they made allegations, and very serious ones at that. And the UNRWA took immediate action. And what, pray tell, is the UNRWA supposed to do other than fire the employees? Shoot them at dawn? Oh, and before you get all up in arms about Slog's editorial bias, the linked AP story also says that the Israeli document makes allegations without providing evidence.

Another interesting question: For how long did Israel know that these UNRWA employees were associated with Hamas? Did they know before 10/7? That seems likely since they reportedly had wiretaps on their phones on 10/7 so that they could hear the orders being given. If they knew that these employees were Hamas or Islamic Jihad operatives in their spare time, wouldn't the responsible thing to have done be to alert the UNRWA so that these people could have been removed from their positions earlier?

9

@8: “…the linked AP story also says that the Israeli document makes allegations without providing evidence.”

No, it doesn’t. The AP story says the findings in the Israeli document “…could not be independently confirmed.”

“The Israeli document, which has been shared with U.S. officials and was obtained by The Associated Press, lists 12 people, their alleged roles in the attack, job descriptions and photos. The findings detailed in the document could not be independently confirmed.”

(https://apnews.com/article/israel-hamas-war-news-01-29-2024-4c49c2fb89c3bfd4963f2260b34943c1)

10

The defunding of UNRWA in Gaza is not just by the US, but by virtually all donor nations.

Try reporting, not pretending America is the only country in the world.

11

@2, "regulate my conduct with the interests of the United Nations." - UN Employee Manual, Oath of UN Employees.

The comparison to private employment isn't really apt. The U.N. is an international organization most similar to a sovereign nation. It's employees are like embassy employees, or U.S. Agency for International Development employees. What they do can be an act of war or espionage, on behalf of the "state" they work for, even if they went rogue to commit those acts. I.e. The U.N., via their employee, can be accused of committing an act or war or espionage against the nation they operate in.

Israel can declare every diplomatic representative of the U.N. "persona non-grata" and evict them from Israeli territory, or territory, like portions of Gaza, where they may have de facto control. So U.N. employees are like employees of any other nation-state posted in a foreign land. Those hired that are citizens of the foreign land, can be seen as spies placed within the foreign embassy or foreign nation state's organization working in their land. Their actions can result in a break of "diplomatic relations," if you will and the U.N. being evicted, or the U.N. withdrawing.

The U.N. manual for U.N. staff continues:

"Adherence by United Nations staff to the highest ethical standards
is central to the work of the Organization and the maintenance
of its good name. As we collectively endeavour to build a more
peaceful and prosperous world, the ethical conduct of all staff
members is paramount."

HOST NATION TO U.N.: If you will permit people to be on staff that commit war or espionage against us, we will kick you out.

FUNDING NATIONS TO U.N." If you permit people on staff to commit war acts or espionage against a member, or other state, we will withdraw funding, sanction, or act against the U.N. as we might against any other nation-state, since its a quasi-nation state.

We can withdraw aid from Israel and they are capable of fighting on, securing arms from the international market. They might get slightly less efficient and efficacious, but their use of force can be continued. Our aid to Israel is .07% their national budget and even more minimal decimal places of their total economy.

We can withdraw aid from a U.N. agency, or the U.N. in general, and bankrupt them. We pay over 20% of their general costs, and over 25% of their peacekeeping costs.

Being human shields in the crossfire for Gazans will end when the application of overwhelming force by one-side against the other, compels one-side or both, to lose the will to continue to fight, or the capacity to continue to fight. Everything else is just a side-show that doesn't provide any practical relief or safety for Gazans.

12

wear goulashes with pride upon your faces when you dine,🍽️
wear galoshes smartly on your feet
when it rains ☔️

(so sayeth the master!)

13

wear goulashes with pride upon your faces when you dine,🍽️
wear galoshes smartly on your feet
when it rains ☔️

(so sayeth the master!)

14

I can't believe people are still ruminating over Daniel Auderer laughing over a lawyer joke extrapolating it into some huge outrage - which it clearly isn't. Dark humor is not a punishable offense, lefties (of all people) should know that.

Re 83 million - How come Bill Clinton wasn't held to account for "defaming" Monica Lewinsky over "I did not have sex with that woman" - but Donald Trump gets charged for defamation over E. Jean Carroll for also claiming innocence? So, we must assume that the defamation is over all the other trashy things Donald said about E. Jean Carroll beyond simply saying that the rape did not occur.

15

‘Seattle Police Department
Commanders Recommended
Discipline for Seattle Police Officers
Guild Vice President Daniel Auderer’

Excellent.

Way to GO,
Commanders!

New Neighborhood Cafes?

“Some of the stuff I’ve said, kind of half joking, if we’re really, really concerned about people driving when they’re intoxicated, why does every community in Washington State require bars to have parking lots?”
-- Roger Millar, Washington’s state transportation secretary*

“Alcohol would be allowed to be served as long as food is also on the menu, potentially opening up the concept of a cafe to include small wine bars or taprooms.” --the Urbanist

that’s kinda Cool!

will they need to Comply with
basic Sanitary measures
or will the Free Market
ultimately Decide?

let’s give it
a shot!

*Transpo Secretary?
I LIKE the way
this guy
Thinks.

say, that Reminds me:
Sorry, Lions!
GO KC!

16

@14,

Because Lewinsky didn't file a suit against him?

17

@2, Canada, Australia, Britain, Germany, Italy, the Netherlands, Switzerland, Finland, Estonia, Japan, Austria and Romania contribute over 57% of the UNRWA budget. France, Spain, and the EU collectively will probably follow suit in suspending aid to the UNRWA. Since 1948, the UNRWA has funded Palestinian refugee camps in the West Bank, Gaza, Jordan, Syria, and Lebanon. That effort includes 706 schools, and 140 healthcare facilities.

Those countries can bankrupt the UNRWA and its vital lifeline to Palestinians throughout the middle east. UNRWA needs to get its act together, or else.

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2024/1/28/which-countries-have-cut-funding-to-unrwa-and-why

18

@14 -- sometimes
a Cigar is just
a cigar.

19

@8 are you seriously going to blame this on Israel? I think @9 answered your "questions" sufficiently but I'm flabbergasted that you are going to imply the UN and Hamas are not fully culpable here. You have a relief agency providing RPG's to a terrorist organization. wow.

@14 we all know the only punishment acceptable for the activist crowd for anything SPD related is termination. They aren't going to be able to terminate the officer who struck her because the actual evidence shows he wasn't at fault so let's go after the guy who made a tasteless comment. A suspension without pay should be what happens but the activists need their pound of flesh. Meanwhile you have other city/school employees actively promoting genocide, which I kind of find tasteless as well, but no consequences for them of course.

20

@14, @16: Also, Monica Lewinsky always described their relationship as fully consensual by both parties — in fact, she took credit for having made the first move.

She also never wanted to talk about their affair publicly. She was illegally recorded talking privately about it by her “friend,” Linda Tripp, who had wanted to cash in on their “friendship” by writing a book about Monica’s relationship with Bill. (Such is friend$hip defined by Republicans, which yet again shows how “Republicans are horrible people.”)

21

@11 OK, so we're back to the UN employees being public employees. Like, say, cops who supported/participated in an insurrection. How long did it take those police departments to fire those cops, if they did at all? Did the local police departments have a responsibility to ensure that none of their officers were engaged in insurrection in their off hours? Or talking about it in the break room at work? After all, being a police officer is a position of public trust too.

As far as we know, none of the UNRWA personnel involved here were diplomatic representatives. They were local employees that Israel does not have the right to expel. I'm not entirely sure that Israel could expel UN diplomatic representatives from Gaza anyway. That is the right of the local government, which might be considered Hamas. Israel walks a fine line here on when they consider themselves the government and when they don't. They certainly won't when it comes to paying for reconstruction.

And you still haven't said what UNRWA should have done. Followed employees in their off hours to make sure none of them were up to no good?

22

@15, Right on.

BTW, just because its safer (not safe) for everyone else for the inebriated not to drive, doesn't mean its safe to transport them on transit. Many local transit agencies, and public transit agencies nationally, don't permit employees to board the visibly intoxicated, because their diminished reaction time and motor function, doesn't permit them to apply leg pressure to the floor of the bus when it's braking or maneuvering and they fall out of the seat, getting injured. That creates civil liability for the agency.

I.e. "Agency knew that people riding in that condition were at increased risk of injury or death, and decided to transport them anyway. But for that Agency's decision to allow them to board, my client wouldn't have smacked their head on the floor and had a brain bleed."

If we want publicly funded agencies to transport the inebriated, then legislation needs to exempt them from civil liability for any injury they sustain while being transported under the influence.

23

I do abhor the Niners, but their fans are 56% less racist than Chiefs fans. It's a conundrum.

24

@Nathalie - YAY for Robyn!

RE: Missing woman just stuck on gondola
Apparently neither the woman nor the resort ever saw the other Frozen (the one without Elsa!) - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frozen_(2010_American_film)

25

@19 Until you can show that the UNRWA management knew that weapons were stored at their facilities, you can't claim that the UNRWA provided weapons to Hamas. Rogue employees likely did so, but they don't speak for the organization. The solution to rogue employees is to fire them when you find out about their activities. I mean, unless you planned to shoot them at dawn before trial.

Before you and Ahab say that every employee in a position of public trust speaks and acts for the broader organization, think for a moment about what that means for SPD, the IDF, and other organizations. I'm not sure you'd like that standard applied to organizations you support.

26

stuck* on
your Ski Lift
& wanna get
NOTICED? make
it Fucking Bounce

if it's not Windy
Someone'll
probably
Notice.

*drop a dime:
use your Cell
& call 9.1.1.

27

@21: If the police officers in question had been contracted by their employers to provide security to the Capitol, and had instead participated in a rebellion there, then their police departments should have known about it, yes.

(I’m not disagreeing with you so much as having fun with your analogies, which don’t really apply to an international body in a war zone.)

Meanwhile, someone at UNWRA Didn’t Get The Memo. From the bottom of the Al-Jazeera story linked at @17:

‘Chris Gunness, a former UNRWA spokesman, said the UN agency has weeks only before it runs out of money for its crucial aid work to save Palestinian lives in Gaza. More than 26,000 Palestinians have been killed since Israel launched its offensive on October 7.

‘“My message to the Arab world, particularly to the Gulf, is where are you? Because they’re making billions each day on oil revenues. A tiny fraction of those oil revenues would see UNRWA’s financial problems disappear overnight. This unconscionable gap inflicted by these Western countries would be filled very quickly,” Gunness told Al Jazeera.

“Some of the most desperate people in the Middle East are now facing starvation, they’re facing famine, and the Arab states need to step up to the plate.”’

Silly spokesman! To Arab governments, Palestinians aren’t for saving; they’re for being a thorn in Israel’s side, and for justifying terrorism against Israel. If those governments had wanted to resettle all of the refugees, they could have done so decades ago. Likewise, if creating an independent state in the West Bank was so bloody important, Jordan had twenty years to do so when it controlled that territory.

28

@8, What was (is) UNRWA supposed to do?

Have a counter-espionage force, like any other nation state or quasi-nation state operating on foreign territory, to detect actions of its employees and agents that are rogue actions not in the interest of the U.N. or consistent with its purpose. Do security background checks on foreign nationals they employee in the territories where they operate, just like an embassy would, or US AID, or other foreign government aid agency would. Internally audit to see if employees are misappropriating agency assets for personal gain, or gain of a party in armed conflict with another nation state or party.

The U.N. can police themselves, even if they don't have an independent military force to police others.

@21, The cops that participated in insurrection. Not an applicable analogy. Police agencies aren't a sovereign state, or quasi-sovereign state operating in another sovereign state, for the interests of the state employing them.

Cops are internal public employees. They, and all public employees in the U.S., are citizens with Constitutional Rights under the 5th, 14th, and other provisions of the Constitution. They are also employees with collective bargaining rights, other employment rights set by law, and collective bargaining agreement rights. They aren't "at will" employees. No public employee is "at will". They can only be disciplined after an investigation, with Constitutional, legal, and contractual due process, shows violation of a policy of the public employer, that was provided to the employee, and that policy is the least restrictive restriction imposed on employee's rights as citizens, required to facilitate the function the employee was hired to do.

Once that's done? Hell yes, fire the public employee (cop or any other function) that engaged in insurrection or other interference with Congress on 1/6.

29

@25 that wasn't my question. You wildly speculated in your post @8 that Israel had knowledge of these rogue employees and chose not to act (thereby shifting responsibility for what happened on 10/7 once again to Israel). I just find it amazing you continually find ways to absolve horrible people of doing horrible things. It's both frightening and fascinating to behold.

30

@23: So you're stereotyping the KC Chiefs as racist because you think Kansas City is racist in general or you heard a racist remark from one of the players or something?

31

@28 So you're back to following employees after work to see what they're up to. OK, well how does that work out. Let's see, we've got the USAF Reserve guy who was leaking intelligence from Ukraine. We've got the US Ambassador who was spying for Cuba. We've got the (Russian national) US Secret Service employee in Moscow that was a spy and was kept on for months after the US Embassy security officer raised flags about whether the employee was a spy. So that's definitely working super-well.

https://www.state.gov/todays-announcement-of-espionage-charges-against-a-state-department-contractor/
https://www.npr.org/2023/12/06/1217513411/state-department-fallout-a-former-ambassador-is-charged-with-spying
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2018/aug/02/suspected-russian-spy-us-embassy-moscow-secret-service

And what was the action taken in all of these cases of an employee of the United States betraying a public trust? Firing them and prosecuting them when that was possible. So they can be turned over to Israel for prosecution.

By the way, it turns out the UN officials below the Assistant Secretary-General level do not generally have diplomatic immunity. And that the appropriate response identified by the UN for employees who break local laws is to refer them to the local authorities for prosecution.

https://www.un.org/en/coronavirus/know-your-legal-rights

32

@29 The US has a policy of alerting other nations, even adversaries, to imminent terrorist attacks. Witness that the US alerted Iran that ISIS-K was planning suicide bombings in Iran. If Israel knew that these UNRWA employees were Hamas or Islamic Jihad militants using UNRWA facilities for illegal purposes, you'd think that they'd alert UNRWA to shut down the activity. Because that would be in everyone's interest, right?

I'm not questioning whether UNRWA employees were part of the 10/7 attacks, nor questioning that those attacks were absolutely immoral. I'm questioning the leap that the UNRWA itself is responsible for the actions of rogue employees. Should the US Secret Service be defunded because they had a Russian spy in their midst, knew about it, and didn't fire them for several months? Because that's what you're asking by calling for UNRWA to be defunded.

And on a broader level, I am questioning whether the actions of some immoral people against civilians mean that it's open season on other civilians who happen to live next door to the immoral people.

33

@9 a document made ALLEGATIONS that could not be independently confirmed. If there's any evidence, like video or witnesses, the allegations could be independently confirmed by watching the video or contacting the witnesses. An allegation is not evidence. If you disagree I allege that you made a video calling Tanya Woo racial slurs and posted it to YouTube, then deleted it hours later.

34

@32 -- bingo.

the Nutnyahoo Doctrine:
bomb them to Smithereens
and let God sort it all out later.

35

@32: “And on a broader level, I am questioning whether the actions of some immoral people against civilians mean that it's open season on other civilians who happen to live next door to the immoral people.”

Yes, equating the IDF’s actions in Gaza with the Hamas terrorist attacks of 10/7 has been a great game for the Stranger, supportive commenters, and ambulance-blockading protesters to play. As @29 hinted, it’s been truly sickening to observe, though. And I’m really getting tired of noting the many real-world asymmetries glibly ignored by your symmetrical rhetorical construction.

What makes you believe the IDF is actively hunting (“open season”) civilians in Gaza? Because of the death toll? On a per-day basis, Hamas killed a lot more, with time to spare for a little (ok, a lot) of rape and mutilation on the side. The IDF also has much more destructive equipment than did Hamas, and operates in densely-populated urban environments. Yet the per-day death toll remains lower for the IDF, and without the rape and mutilation.

Perhaps what’s really happening in Gaza is the IDF protecting Israelis from more genocidal attacks by Hamas, and Hamas using civilians in Gaza for human shields against the IDF? Because that adequately explains the death toll to me, without need for any other explanation.

36

@26: Bouncing looks feasible (6-person Gondola cars) but maybe no employees or skiers looked up.

Also, she didn't have a phone.

37

@25, "Until you can show that the UNRWA management knew that weapons were stored at their facilities ..."

Nope. They are responsible for having systems in place to detect and prevent that. So is a foreign embassy, aid mission, or other national mission in a foreign land. It's a case of strict liability. No system is perfect, but showing you had a robust system to detect and prevent rogue operators from using your mission, mission's assets, or employees against the nation where its permitted to operate, is the case you use to plead for leniency and restraint from the foreign power attacked when your assets and resources are roguely misappropriated. The U.N.'s honor system, wholly reliant on an oath and good will of its employees isn't an adequate system.

Institutions internal to a country, and employees of those institutions, enjoy rights, civil liberties, and deference, that those involved in military, diplomatic, or other foreign service on behalf of the sending government do not.

"And on a broader level, I am questioning whether the actions of some immoral people against civilians mean that it's open season on other civilians who happen to live next door to the immoral people."

You can question it all you like, but that is the state of international and domestic law. The alternative, is to eliminate rights of self-defense.

If your attacker surrounds themselves with innocents and attacks you from amongst, behind, over, under, or in other near proximity to them, and risk of hitting the innocents eliminates the right to take out the attacker. Individuals and nations lose the right of self-defense, at the sole discretion of the attacker, in that circumstance.

The Laws of Armed Conflict (LOAC) do not prohibit killing non-combatants. LOAC specifically anticipates and allows that, provided they are collateral damage from going after a combatant. Going after non-combatants, absent a combatant target, is what LOAC prohibits.

Imagine a world where North Korea, is immune from counter-attack so long as they place their missile silos tightly between hospital, residential towers, and schools in Pyongyang. South Korea, the U.S., and Japan, then lose the right to strike at those silos when North Korea actually used those missiles (conventionally or nuclear armed is irrelevant) against them. That's a hell of an incentive to place those weapons there. It's a hell of an incentive to use them. Do you think we will have more war, and the mass slaughter that goes with it (of non-combatants and combatants alike), in such a modified international LOAC scheme, where North Korea could get a pass from counter-attack against those weapon launch points? I do.

38

First, get your wet feet outta my goulash. Second, I love that Robyn song very much. Third, before arriving here today I read an enlightening essay by Josh Marshall about UNRWA in Talking Points Memo. I highly recommend following his analysis. You'll learned that it's the context within which UNRWA operates--not the absence of documented evidence of certain individuals complicity--that reveals the story to be a nothing burger.

https://talkingpointsmemo.com/edblog/about-that-un-hamas-story

40

@35 So Israeli soldiers killing unarmed civilians carrying white flags moving along declared safe evacuation routes is in furtherance of the protection of Israeli citizens? Snipers choosing to kill unarmed civilians in a convent is as well? No, that's just hunting from a blind.

If you demand that any UNRWA involvement in 10/7 demands immediate punishment of the entire organization, then clearly these types of war crimes do as well. Let me know when the sniper units get disbanded and the snipers are punished. Remember, of course, that killing civilians who have surrendered (aka carrying a white flag) is a war crime.

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2024/1/13/shot-in-cold-blood-killing-of-elderly-palestinian-woman-sparks-outcry

@37 So please provide an analysis of the UNRWA security procedures in place on 10/7, how or if they were followed, where they failed, and who was responsible for their failures. Can't provide that? Maybe you're following your IDF heroes with some "Ready, Fire, Aim" tactics.

The LOAC absolutely does forbid killing of any person who has surrendered. In the case cited above, the civilians were carrying a white flag, were following a posted ICRC evacuation route, were not in company of any armed people, and were shot without warning. That is a war crime. Plain and simple. And the IDF has not, to anyone's knowledge, punished the people responsible in any way. At least the UNRWA fired the responsible parties. The IDF can't even meet that basic responsibility.

41

@14 raindrop, @16 mike blob, and @18 kristofarian: Because unlike journalist E. Jean Carroll, Monica Lewinsky is the GOP's wet dream, the consenting and conspiring Devil With a Blue Dress On. RepubliKKKans are truly horrible excuses for people.

@23 DOUG: +1 I share your frustrations about the SF 49ers and KC Chiefs. GO, SEAHAWKS!!
We'll get 'em next season.

@30: Um, yeah. I'd have to say that mostly working class white Kansas City, Missouri is about as systematically racist as the deep-fried MAGA-confused Southeastern Divided States, raindrop dear. Unlike Washington, D.C., that changed their NFL team name from the Redskins to the Commanders in light of the George Floyd murder in 2020, KC has openly balked at the idea of ever changing their NFL team name, the Chiefs, to anything else.

@39 shoobop:+1 Thank you for the reminders of what is truly good. Amen!

42

@20, before I forget, if your grandparents emigrated from Ireland during the Famine, they, your parents, and you can apply for and receive Irish citizenship, even if they/you are all gringos now.

43

While I find the news about the SPD leaders looking to suspend and / or fire SPOG VP Daniel Auderer somewhat encouraging news, it's not enough. I won't be truly happy until there is a PD pig roast coast to coast, weeding out all the shit in a uniform. We, the people need to end all the corruption, dirty money, systematic racism, use of military assault weapons, and unwarranted police violence. PERIOD.

44

It’s terrible and disgusting that the UN has factions that are corrupt and supervised by those with vague senses of morality. It’s terrible because this is so antithetical to what the UN is supposed to be. It’s disgusting because the UN was to be a universal symbol of hope. It’s like finding out Doctors Without Borders is a cover for an underground Percocet business.

I’m not really surprised because this is nothing new for the UN. Siblings and offspring of delegates in New York have used diplomatic immunity to beat and/or kill girlfriends, to drive drunk and kill families on the highway, slide out of parking and traffic violations (they can park anywhere….ANYWHERE…with impunity), and if the situation gets serious enough, the worst thing that happens is somebody flies their ass home.

The diplomatic immunity thing was written into the rules so that people, even the evil ones who wanted to rule the world, could come to New York without fear of being detained. It’s why Fidel and Nikita came. Don’t ever count on Kim Jong Un coming though. He’s so paranoid that when he rarely travels – even to his best friend’s house next door, he shits in boxes while away, and all the boxes return with him when he arrives back home. He’s frightfully aware of all the information one can extract from someone’s feces. You’d never know he was once a teenager who enjoyed riding in convertibles while attending school in Switzerland, would you? Fellow students say he didn’t talk much.

The UN needs to be re-built from the ground up. UNWRA needs to be shut down and condemned for breaking the rules.

45

A cigar is just a cigar, but a Newton is fig and cake.

46

And I love the idea of the Arab states pitching in to help, but yeah, I'm not holding my breath.

48

@40, Sure those things should be investigated.

But while all your finite time, energy, resources etc. is focused on getting indictments at the IJC or some other body for a handful of folks allegedly unlawfully killed over the course of the entire conflict, hundreds of non-combatants PER DAY are being killed LAWFULLY killed under LOAC.

The latter only stops when the conflict stops. We know from the history of all prior conflicts when the latter cases stop. When one side, the other side, or both suffer overwhelming application of force sufficient that cause them to lose the will, or capacity to continue to fight, the collateral killing stops.

So while we are majoring on your minors, with finite resources, hundreds per day are dying. Let's put our eye on the ball which is sufficiently beating Hamas so that the IDF loses justification to fight in lawful self-defense.

If the international community doesn't like the IDF's efforts to forcibly stop Hamas, because that is the only way that have indicated they will stop, and thinks they can do it better, with less collateral damage, and U.N. troop casualties, the Security Council is welcome to meet and authorize such an international force. The U.S. will chip in 27% of the cost of forces billed to the U.N. by member nations contributing forces, as we do now. We'd likely also contribute combat forces as well.

The alleged war crimes you reference will still be there when the conflict ends. Then the world can convene a Israel-Hamas Conflict "Nuremberg" style accounting for war crimes during the conflict.

I can't provide a summary of UNRWA security procedures in place on 10/7 (and before when the diversions of UNRWA materials and use of UNRWA facilities were taking place) that don't exist.

That's kind of the point. The U.N. and its aid agencies have always operated on the premise that every dollar must go to humanitarian aid, and relied on a loyalty oath and good-faith of those they hire, rather than create counter-intelligence and audit personnel to go with the aid deployment.

It's shortsighted. More money going to humanitarian aid today, while losing the ability to provide aid in some conflict or country under dictatorship tomorrow, because the U.N. isn't trusted not to allow it's facilities and resources to be used to put its thumb on the side of one-side of said conflict or against said dictator, is shortsighted.

@44, Is correct with regard to UNRWA. The donor countries in question are using the case to get the UN's attention regarding a long-standing issue. I hope that its done urgently, so that UNRWA's beneficiaries suffer the briefest interruption of aid. The same reforms then need to spread across the U.N.'s other aid operations. The U.N. by its nature, attracts "do-gooders" with the most optimistic view of human nature, rather than those steeped in realpolitik, committed to creating checks, balances, and perpetual guards against treachery against the institution and its mission.

49

@48 How do you know that it's only a handful of people killed unlawfully per day? Those are only the ones we have video evidence of. And shouldn't you be concerned with any civilians killed unlawfully? After all, you are very concerned about civilians killed on 10/7. Don't Gazans have the same right to live as Israelis?

So you know that there are no UNRWA security procedures? How do you know that? Are you an expert in NGO security procedures as well as a former transit system union shop steward? What a diverse work experience you've had! Far more likely is that the security procedures aren't public, for obvious reasons.

50

@32 ok so here's how I read what you are saying. Allegations/evidence has come to light that members of the UNRWA were actively aiding and abetting a planned terrorist attack on civilians. Your immediate comment is that Israel probably had intelligence on these agents and deliberately chose not to act on it so that Hamas' attack would create an opportunity for them to invade the country. That's basically where you are going with your theory. Again I just think its amazing how you can take the despicable actions of one group and completely flip the scrip to blame the Israeli government without anything that would indicate that it is possible (except of course for you and Kristo's tin foil hats). Congrats on going fully down the rabbit hole.

51

@50

like passing the
Patriot Act and the
dick Cheney becoming
a Multimilionaire with Hell-
aburton nearly Overnight with
his No-bid Contracts "rebuilding"
Afghanistan (or was it Iraq?) can it
be Surprising if Nutnyahoo also chose
to turn a Blind Eye to an Invasion that'd keep
him Outta Prison for the Duration of the Conflict?

or maybe
BiBi's just Utterly
fucking Incompetent.

perhaps Both
can be
True.

52

@50 Actually, my first thought was in @2, but hey, who's counting? It seems likely that Israel had these allegations sitting ready for deployment at a moment's notice given that the document was issued with 48 hours of an embarrassing ruling at the ICJ.

It's not a stretch to ask what Israel knew and when they knew it. After all, Israel had Hamas' attack plan more than a year in advance and did nothing to prevent or mitigate the attacks. I'm not blaming Israel as a whole. I do think that their leaders will have a lot to answer for to their own citizens when the next elections come. Hopefully, it won't be a repeat of the 2004 US election.

https://apnews.com/article/new-york-times-hamas-attack-israel-gaza-6088cad78f5e4153d671fe9b5b819308

53

@51/52 There is no need to comment on the veracity of your claims since they are wildly speculative (I'd dare so along the lines of 9/11 was an inside job). My simple amazement in this thread and others before it is the speed in which you shift the blame from Hamas and their cohorts to Israel. It makes me wonder if there is anything Hamas could possibly do where you wouldn't end up indicting Israel. Like I said both frightening and fascinating to behold.

54

@53 That's a bit of a stretch. My question isn't analogous to whether 9/11 was an inside job. My question is very much in line with asking what happened in response to the Presidential Daily Brief item from 8/6/2001 ("Bin Laden Determined to Strike in the US"). Unfortunately, Bush II didn't pay an electoral price for ignoring that threat. Hopefully Netanyahu will.

So you think it's just a coincidence that the UNRWA document was released within 48 hours of the ICJ verdict that's now almost forgotten in the media? How nice it must be in your cozy little naive world.

55

Yes, Nathalie, AI--or, in my opinion, ALI (Artificial Lack of Intelligence) scares the shit out of me.

Show of hands, fellow boomers: who remembers the Twilight Zone Season 5, Episode 17, "Number 12 Looks Just Like You" ? Rod Serling was right, decades ahead of his time on Earth, however shortened by cigarettes, and we should have fucking listened.

56

@49, Historically, the largest killer of civilians in armed conflict has been death and disease. Makes sense. Aid agencies, water utilities, normal private supply chain suppliers can't deliver food, medicine, water, etc. in an active combat zone. We are seeing that repeated every day in Gaza.

Can you lay that at the feet of the IDF? Sure, but even as the Arab press is reporting from Gaza, there is active combat going on between Hamas and the IDF all over, and in unpredictable patterns, and locations. What's the IDF doing? Dressing people up as Hamas and then having gun fights with them? That is the absurdest of conspiracy theory, that would have to include the Arab Press.

60% of the 25,000 non-combatant casualties from crossfire, is from artillery or bombs based on studies of past conflicts. That's 15,000 non-combatants by artillery or air bombardment in Gaza (I suspect its actually higher).

How does that happen? Israeli intelligence identifies a Hamas command and control center below a residential tower. IDF infantry advance and they receive small arms fire from a building across from a hospital. Either event makes either structure, and everyone in it, and around it, combatant or not, a legal target under LOAC. So the IDF does what EVERYONE else does that possessed artillery and air bombardment capability (e.g. Russia, France, Canada, U.S., Germany, Norway, etc.). They call in artillery or air while their own infantry puts their heads down and/or moves back. They don't make an infantry assault. That is how you have 30% casualty rates in an infantry unit, at which point they become combat ineffective.

Just as an aside, the ratio of casualties in headquarters units is 11% to 12%, but only 9% in infantry units. Why? Headquarters are some of the highest valued targets on a battlefield. What are they attacked with? Bombs and artillery exclusively (or nearly so).

A study by London-based Action on Armed Violence indicates that per airstrike where somebody is publicly documented to have died (not all airstrikes, just that subset) was 17.1 civilian deaths per strike in Mosul, 21.7 in Allepo, and 12 in Raqqa. The IDF then twist the data to claim its only 0.8 in Gaza (bullshit). You can read the source and see why its bullshit. https://www.reuters.com/fact-check/graph-suggesting-low-gaza-air-strike-casualty-rate-misrepresents-data-2024-01-29/

So as obsessed as you might be about potential war crimes, they are a far distant, statistically minor, contributor to the non-combatant killing show in Gaza. They can certainly be investigated and prosecuted after hostilities end (as they have been in prior conflicts) and should be. It's more effective when investigators can get to witnesses because it's no longer an active war zone.

The most efficacious way to stop the non-combatant casualty horror is for one, or both sides, to lose the ability or will to keep fighting because of the application of overwhelming force. That is what generally ends all wars (the negotiations occur because that point has been reached). That silences the artillery and bombs that are doing 60% of the killing. What percentage of the killing stops if you could wave a magic wand and stop the infantry war crimes you allege. It's single-digit percentages, and a drop in the macabre bucket of Gazan body parts.

Israel isn't going to stop the conflict until they have assured themselves that they have returned the security situation to prior to 10/7, when the most successful and typical Hamas attack was a bus bombing every so often, with most other attacks creating single-digit Israeli casualties every few months. It doesn't matter if the Netanyahu government falls (which I would welcome). Even a liberal government commits political suicide if they back off and Hamas can replicate a 1/10th as successful 10/7 attack ever 6 to 18 months. https://nationalinterest.org/feature/why-benjamin-netanyahu-rejects-palestinian-statehood-208847

So if what horrifies us about this most, as it should, is the Gazans caught in the crossfire, the remedy to it isn't the IDF committing fewer war crimes with the infantry, or developing tactics and tech that are more precise and discriminating, that no other military has either (Mosul was are operation, with proxies, and the bombs were ours), its overwhelming violence against one or both sides that gets them to cry uncle. That is what ends non-combatant slaughter in the crossfire.

57

"What's the IDF doing? Dressing people up as Hamas and then having gun fights with them? That is the absurdest of conspiracy theory, that would have to include the Arab Press."

or
maybe
they're Murdering
Civilians and dressing*
Them up as Hamas fighters.

IDF
never
Lies. is
that Correct?

*although
why would they
need to? they've
fucking Impunity

or perhaps
pursuant to South
Africa's petition they're
no longer able to Destroy

the villages in order to save them

omg.
What a
fucking Blow.

END the
Madness
Mr. President
keep US outta
fucking Armageddon.

58

@51 & @57 kristofarian for the WIN!!!

59

@57:

“or
maybe
they're Murdering
Civilians and dressing*
Them up as Hamas fighters.”

Your tinfoil hat has now reached sufficient thickness to require removal by can-opener.

“or perhaps
pursuant to South
Africa's petition they're
no longer able to Destroy

the villages in order to save them”

In case you missed it, the ICJ denied South Africa’s request to issue a cease-fire.

@58: You should be ashamed of yourself for encouraging this. He’s crying out for help, not enabling.

60

@57,

"*although
why would they
need to? they've
fucking Impunity"

That's kind of the point of war. The warrior, at least for the length of the conflict, has the guns, grenades, artillery, and air support. The warrior can do what they want, at least until a warrior on the other side stops them with guns, artillery, rockets, etc.

Gazan and Israeli non-combatants will stop being at risk when one side or the other, or both, loses the capacity or will to fight. Until that happens, a piece of paper, signed by national representatives, in some far off land, is no protection for a Gazan or Israeli non-combatant.

That piece of paper never has been protective, and never will be. Someone getting tired of the fight or too maimed to fight is the only hope Gazans have left.

61

@59

oh wormmy
your pleadings
bleatings and vile
projections have been
a Banshee's Scream for
Nutnyhaoo's Massacre to
continue unabated uncriticized
and Disaffected by the World's o-
pinion of the Terror Israel Continues
to rain down upon horror-stricken Gazans

your drowning
in DeNile not-
withstanding.

my tinfoilt hat*
disturbs you?
Excellento.

*you'll be delighted
to learn I'm get-
ting in a whole
New Roll from
Alcoa soon.

62

"The warrior can
do what they want,
at least until a warrior on
the other side stops them
with guns, artillery, rockets, etc."

-cap'n Ahab
moments before
being swallowed by
the White Killer Whale
of the International Court
of Justice for excusing genocide

or at least
assisting in
making it in-
Evitable. oops

63

a little Tuesday AM soundtrack
for your War on Gazans

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B3ytkyn3vUU

64

@61 kristofarian: I still say teenieweenie's got lead in his tap water, and nothing better to do than command his right hand stooges, Cap'n Crunch and Necrophiliac. All three seem hellbent on chugging the MAGA Kool-Aid and sending senseless arguments into overtime.
Life must be hell out in the boonies.

65

nyt:
‘We Are Not Very Far From an Explosion’
--by Roger Cohen; 1/31/24

a wee excerpt:

Ehud Olmert, Israel’s prime minister from 2006 to 2009, describes the situation more bluntly and more personally. “Mr. Netanyahu is a greater danger than the war, in fact than all our enemies put together,” he told me.

“Since his first speech after Oct. 7, Israelis have appointed Biden president of the Zionist movement for life,” Olmert says. “He has the leverage, and he does not have much time.”

https://www.nytimes.com/2024/01/31/magazine/west-bank-palestinians-settlers.html#commentsContainer

it’s nice to see
someone Else* agrees
with me. Thanks, Mr. Olmert!

Free Israel:
Fire Nutnyahoo

and Shut It DOWN
Mr. President*
whilst ye
Can.

*thanks auntie Gee!

*I know
I Know Bazooka
Joe can't possibly
Fire Nutnyahoo --it's
Up to Israel to do That

and Godspeed
Israel.

66

@33: "a document made ALLEGATIONS that could not be independently confirmed. "

Wrong. Read the statement from the original AP story again, from which I quoted @9. These were findings of fact, based on actual information. The AP simply hadn't been able to confirm those findings (not 'ALLEGATIONS') before it published the story.

@40: You didn't provide a url, so I do not know which of your several favorite cherry-picked IDF 'atrocities' you mean. Is it the deaths of the three hostages during a batched rescue attempt? Because that's not 'hunting,' it's a classic military charlie-foxtrot. People get erroneously shot in war zones all of the time. (And there would've been no hostages to shoot if Hamas hadn't first kidnapped and then kept hostages, but as noted elsewhere in this thread, you seem intent on blaming the IDF, and only the IDF, for every last thing that goes wrong in that war.)

"If you demand that any UNRWA involvement in 10/7 demands immediate punishment of the entire organization,"

I made no such demand; in fact, I implied the opposite, that UNWRA was wrongly rushing to fire employees because of political pressure from the United States.


Please wait...

Comments are closed.

Commenting on this item is available only to members of the site. You can sign in here or create an account here.


Add a comment
Preview

By posting this comment, you are agreeing to our Terms of Use.