Coyotes spotted in Capitol Hill—cats, beware. Deborah Casso/Getty Images

Comments

1

"I’m happy to report that all of my favorite bars had “No Santa-Con” signs on the door."

Really? Wow, so now the far-left bloggers of the stranger are full-on supporting segregation and exclusion. Who are we next banning from entering establishments?

2

“…Sounds to me like she’s worried no one will want to work with them after Morales shared her experience…”

As the post then goes on to report on a new candidate for the District 2 Council seat, it seems there’s little danger District 2 will lack candidates.

(During the years they served together on the Council, did CM Morales ever make so much as a single public complaint about then-CM Sawant’s personal attacks upon other CMs? If not, why does CM Morales believe it is such a big deal now?)

3

United Health Group made $23 billion last year. Unconscionable isn't it?

Well its only a 3.66% profit. You can do better putting your money in a high yield savings account.

If your surgery only cost $9,734, instead of $10,000 (3.66% less), would that make healthcare affordable? What if your doctor's visit cost $167 instead of $174, would that make healthcare affordable.

They have 440,000 employees who would have to be employed by the 12 private contractors that Medicare uses to process and pay Medicare claims under Medicare for all.

M4A is a valid choice we can make as a nation, but as some magic silver bullet to reduce the cost of healthcare in the U.S., dream on.

The math is tyrannical. The math doesn't give a shit if the Feds, or the private sector is hiring bodies to pay claims.

4

Hannah Murphy Winter two days in a row.

When The Stranger's publisher, Noisy Creek, loses money paying people to do narrative reporting, because that reporting doesn't sell enough adds to cover the cost of those bodies, then the salaried management has to work longer and longer hours doing the work they are supposed to be managing, in addition to managing.

Look for The Stranger to drop The Slog, city hall reporting, reporting on social issues, and reporting on identity issues, and just retaining EverOut (with occasional art's stories, concert reviews, etc.) and Bold Type Tickets.

Rich Smith was just the first to go. Hannah, Ashley, and Vivian are next. Nathalie is already a freelancer. Unless Charles wants to confine himself to arts and entertainment, we won't be seeing any of his commentaries on capitalism either.

Remember, you read it in the comments first.

5

@1: Per Horseshoe Theory, the far left and the far right both embrace segregation and exclusion. Each just has a different set of targets to ban from our shared public life.

6

You’re not just paying for the profit margin, you’re also paying overhead, which goes to support things like advertising that adds nothing of value to the patient.

Generally overhead for private is about double the overhead for public. Having a large national insurance pool would also contain costs by eliminating inefficiencies (eg, going from one insurance provider to another) and having more leverage to negotiate down costs.

7

@1:

Ever seen what happens to a bar when several hundred drunk people in Santa costumes suddenly descend on it unannounced? If you had, you'd understand why owners don't want them on their premises.

8

@1 Who knew that Santa was a protected class?

9

“We’re
officially in
the deepest of
the Big Dark—five days
away from our shortest day.”

speaking of the
Big Dork ~ Dark rather

soon enough, it’ll be
thee Longest Days: the
return of the eltrumpfster
who, coincidentally [?] wants to
ban Daylight Savings Time Forever

“(Though it [the Woodland Park Zoo and Seattle University’s Carnivore Spotter map] does show one sighting in the middle of Elliott Bay, which I have…questions about.)”

‘mystery’?
What mystery?

tho they frequently
wear very Dark sunglasses
and stick to the Upper Decks
Coyotes absolutely Love the ferries!

and their Sneaking on them a game unto itself.

“Back to Basics:
Washington has a new
guaranteed basic income pro-
gram, targeting indigenous parents.”

Fuck. YES.

we’ve All witnessed the Horrors
of Bad Parenting (see: “Repub-
licans”) but when you’re flat-
out Broke, parenting’s vastly
More Challenging & kids’re
gonna Suffer Thee Most
(see also: Gaza). this is

a Brilliant Move, which
Likely’ll be Overturned
by elrumpfster and his
MAGA-infested USSC

“Anyone seeking the Senate’s consent to serve in the incoming administration would do well to steer clear of even the appearance of association with such efforts.”
--McMitch KkKonnell,
worn out from his Tireless
Stacking of ‘our’ Supreme Ct

that’s Okay
McMitch – they’re
‘learned’ thru YOUR
Senate when to STFU in
confirmation hearings in Your
Senate and not Ruin their Chances

re: UnitedHealthcare
it aint ‘Healthcare’
they Sell – it’s
Access TO it

or
Actually
Their DENIAL
of YOUR ‘access’ To it.

and ALL them
BILLION$

see:
‘The Adjuster:
Folk Hero to Millions,’ the Movie.

“There are countless ways to work around state laws and get abortion pills by mail. Because abortion is community care.”

Sure.
for Now.

they’re gonna Outlaw Contraception Next.
you’ll need a Notarized Note
from your Minister.
or Husband.

@2

omg
your Sawant
Syndrome NEVER ends
even tho you live 3,000 Miiles away

we're so Sorry she
Broke your brain,
Wormtongue
but it's Okay
you can
Move
On.

10

@6,

Ooh the overhead. Now your surgery will cost $9,500 and your doctors visit will be $160. Now is healthcare affordable.

The probable savings you mention aren't nothing, but they aren't going to magically bring healthcare into the realm of affordability, or do anything to keep Medicare from going underwater in 2035. It will still be around, but it will pay claims at 80 or 90 cents on the dollar, to match revenue from Medicare Taxes, per the requirements written into the original Medicare Legislation under Johnson.

My objection to the whole M4A discussion is its proponents claim that it is a silver bullet to get universal coverage without great financial pain to the country.

If we want to have the adult discussion, like Europe does, where everyone pays much higher taxes, and taxes are less progressive than the United States, that's fine. (The taxes are less progressive in Europe because taxing the rich doesn't produce enough money, so they tax the middle and poor just as steeply - you think Washington's 10% sales tax is bad, just wait until its at 25% to 35% Europeans pay).

But we don't have the adult discussion here. We will get what we want through efficiencies, or having someone other than ourselves pay dramatically higher taxes.

11

Love people framing the one day exclusion of crowds of people who are dressed up as santa (for one day) as a horseshoe theory equivalent to like, banning people as permanently as possible from spaces because of their inherent characteristics, physical or otherwise. Those people will take those santa suits off and be allowed in those bars the next, or even same day. Did they really need someone building a persecution complex for them? Legitimately hilarious.

12

10, I don’t care what you think. You’ve already shown you don’t know the very first thing about the issue you’re commenting on. I’m just correcting the bad information you’re giving everyone.

13

@5 There is no "Horseshoe theory". It's nonsense with zero academic viability, designed to demonize the left. By any metrics, the right wing is much closer to the far right than any part of the left will ever be. First, because they promote the same economics but also because they end up in the same bed, throughout history, in times of crisis.

14

So what information is faulty in @10? Are not European countries Value Added Taxes (another name for a sales tax) 25% to 35%? Are not the tax systems of all European countries except Ireland, Portugal, and Italy less progressive than the U.S.?

The TLDR with M4A, and other European social safety nets, is that we will get what we pay for. If we want it, we all just need to suck it up and pay for it. There ain't a silver bullet.

15

@12, Oh and you are slipping, if that is what you are doing. Either you forgot to correct yesterday's @74, or there is nothing in it to correct.

You also haven't corrected @14/@10.

Have a good one.

16

@7: “…several hundred drunk people in Santa costumes…”

I’ve spent time in a lot of bars, and in almost all of them, “several hundred” persons arriving simultaneously would easily overload the maximum legal capacity of the space, especially if it wasn’t empty upon their arrival. The only places I ever went which could accommodate such a crowd were the big corporate places, which had staff sufficient to handle such sudden influxes. But those never qualified as my “favorite” places, obviously.

Also, drinking establishments are not legally allowed to serve already-drunk patrons, whether they got drunk there or not. Visible intoxication is always valid grounds for a bar to deny service.

17

Coyote alerts and "keep cats inside" threads have been ubiquitous on Nextdoor for a couple of years now.

@13: I don't think so. Both extreme right and extreme left have slaughtered millions. Like Mao and Adolf.

18

15, not sure how many times i need to tell you this but i have no interest in arguing back and forth with you about any subject let alone anything pertaining to statistics and human subject research because you don’t know the first thing and that does not stop you from acting like an expert just like you’re doing here with health insurance

No one owes you an argument. Go talk to your wife or someone who actually cares what you have to say. If you don’t I’ll just assume nobody loves you. That’s how this works right.

19

No Santas! Denied!!

20

there Is no
'extreme Left'
in America or if there
Is, their numbers're so small
as to be statictically irrelevant

Bernie fucking Sanders is
about as far "left" as this
country'll (seemingly)
tolerate & Bernie'd
be a Centrist in
that 'Socialist
Hellhole!' we
call Scandin-
avia, Home
to the Hap-
piest People
on Planet
Earth.

perhaps
we just don't
happen to place
any Value on People's
Happiness and instead Focus
on their Making as Much MONEY

as they possibly Can
and to Hell with
the Hindmost
or 'bottom'
ninety %.

21

@13: I see horseshoes in action all the time with the far left and the far right. Opposite poles, inches apart.

Easy example: ask a progressive and an alt-righter to describe the role AIPAC plays in American politics. They'll spray you virtually identical answers. They arrive there by different routes, but they end up in the same place, lol!

21

@20: Not so far in the US, but people are in jail in the UK and Canada for social media posts. The Commonwealth is quite lefty.

22

McConnell is no fucking hero. Dude has voted for and aided and abetted Donald Trump in every possible way, every single day.

Oh and I guess SLOG NEWS missed the tweet sent out by the orange turd telling everyone that any person or corporation that gives A BILLION DOLLARS OR MORE to the United States (meaning HIM), will get a green light on anything and everything they want to do, no questions asked, LET'S ROCK!!!

Yeah...

23

You all also apparently missed that a woman (white, middle class, not that that should matter, but of course it does) who said three words while on a phone call with her health insurance company - delay, deny, depose - was ARRESTED AND IS STILL IN CUSTODY. THEY ARE TREATING HER LIKE A TERRORIST. Think about this people. They are coming for YOU. They are coming for EVERY SINGLE ONE OF US. This is not a joke. This is not a test. This is actually happening RIGHT NOW, in the so-called land of the free. Get ready, because you all are about to find out just how bad we are going to get fucked and it is so much worse than you can even possibly imagine. You can't say you weren't warned.

24

The only reason McConnel gives a shit about the polio vax is to save face and in such an obvious way that it connects to that stillborn voting block of grey haired dinosaurs and gives them a reprieve to believe that all their votes for el Maga-drumpf's party will have good consequences. It's lip service and a gas light to shroud what the GOP will feeeeeuck up in the next two years. Fuck the GOP. F.U.C.K. them.
And Kristo.... You so crack me up, make me cry and them make me cry and laugh. The angst is addictive, thank you for you.

25

@xina

about a third
of tS's commentariat's
been here on derr Schlogg
advocating in their own insidious
Ways for eltrumpfster's horrific Return

and're
Delighted
he'll be Back.

just
think
of their
Investments!

they do.

26

@23: That story was the third paragraph in Friday’s Slog AM,

https://www.thestranger.com/slog-am/2024/12/13/79822929/slog-am-spooky-road-signs-possible-giant-drones-in-new-jersey-and-rfks-lawyer-trying-to-recall-the-polio-vaccine

Those were the words found written at the site of an assassination of a healthcare CEO, so of course they were interpreted as a death threat by an employee working in that industry. Apparently you’re ok with American workers receiving death threats on the job.

(I can understand your having missed Friday’s Slog AM. You’d grandly bowed out for the weekend in the comment thread of Thursday’s Slog AM, after some of your fellow commenters had mentioned a previous transphobic comment you’d made.)

27

@24
Thank you!
Glad to be of Service.

28

@26

well
there's
our wormmy!
always ready willing and
Able to spin Any comment
not absolutely Pro-Corporate into a
Tirade against common sense & sensibility

(word on the Street has it
he's got a Big Contract to pen a
Counter to Netflix's next Biggest Block-
buster - '''The Adjuster'' - the Luigi Mangione Story.'

after all,
it's only Fair
to show Both Sides).

29

@21 Typical garbage from thumpus who desperately wants to blur the fundamental difference between a progressive pointing out the undeniable influence of the Israeli and Zionist lobby on US politics, and an antisemite talking about the Jewish lobby that he portrays as deceiving and conniving. Far from all Jews are Zionists, and some of the most incisive criticism of Zionism comes from Jews like Hannah Arendt for example. The Israeli lobby (AIPAC and other superpacs) spent over $100 millions on this US cycle successfully targeting progressive critics of Israel like Cory Bush and Jamal Bowman, yet thumpus tells you to not believe your lying eyes.

30

@18, I was just inviting you to continue to correct bad data. Since you declined, readers can conclude all is good.

31

Horseshoe Theory stipulates that the impulse to authoritarianism is independent of traditional left / right political considerations. It's more about preferred methods than particular goals.

Because the authoritarian personality type finds compromise anathema, they tend to cluster at the political extremes.

32

December in the PNW had windstorms and "atmospheric rivers" (AKA rain) before Climate Change. this is not unusual.

33

I'd love to attend a meetup with all of you just so I could see you fighting like a bunch of drunk kittens.

34

@29: As I’d previously mentioned, The Nation ran an entire article on how Bowman was his own worst enemy, starting the race ten percentage points behind his opponent in public-opinion surveys, and ultimately losing by seventeen percentage points at the actual polls. AIPAC spent a lot of money in NY-16, and if it had any effect at all, it was to widen Bowman’s already double-digit margin of defeat. Unsurprising that you’d regard that as time and money well-spent.

(https://www.thenation.com/article/politics/bowman-aipac-antisemitism-westchester/)

Money quote: “What really made the difference in the race were Jewish voters themselves: people who live in the district, some of whom voted for Bowman previously, some of whom did not—the majority of whom could not stomach his rhetoric around the war in Gaza, exacerbated by an indifference bordering on hostility to their fears and feedback.”

35

@33: The Stranger used to host Slog Happy at various venues for that very reason. Well actually because it is harder to be a complete dick to someone on-line once you've gotten drunk with them in person. Watching Fnarf pointedly ignore Will in Seattle was also a highlight. I think my favorite meet up was a holiday party at a Bear bar on the Hill with a person dressed as an actual bear in attendance.

36

@4: Look for The Stranger to drop The Slog, city hall reporting, reporting on social issues, and reporting on identity issues, and just retaining EverOut (with occasional art's stories, concert reviews, etc.) and Bold Type Tickets.

Culture, entertainment, music is what these free rags do best. A mutually beneficial relationship between the content and advertisers. I've been reading TS from day one - IIRC that was the main focus. The political stuff, not so much.

37

@29: Wrong. Get Xina or Kristofarian going on AIPAC, or even AverageBob when he’s dropped his guard a little, and the rhetoric you’ll hear is indistinguishable from the Protocols of Zion. 😂

The motivation is absolutely anti-semitic in nature. It is predicated on a denial of Jewish nationhood, a reduction of Jews to a random collection of individuals. This denial is also why AverageBob is so very interested in the percentage of Jews who can or cannot trace their ancestry to Europe (another horseshoe-like confluence with the alt-right, who similarly struggle with the “Jewish Question” 😗)

As usual, when confronted with an allegation of bigotry, the bigot shoves his token minorities to the fore. Behold, an anti-Zionist Jew, cries the bigot, thus am I absolved of anti-semitism! 🤣 The Republican Party plays the same game with its handful of Black members, but it’s not any more convincing coming from the Republicans than it is coming from the “anti-Zionists.” 😉

Or take the following example: AverageBob believes that the Israeli army is committing a genocide of Arabs. But did you know there are hundreds of Arab soldiers in the Israeli army? Some of them are even fighting in Gaza! 😁 Therefore, according to AverageBob’s own theory of token minority participation, AverageBob is forced to conclude that the Israeli army is not committing genocide! 😝 Isn’t that right, Bob? Or is now a little more obvious to you that the token minority theory is meaningless? 😉

38

@37

our leedle
minister of
propaganda
aka thump You*
waxing poetic re
the Jewish Lobby's
successful Targeting
of Progressive Dems
in our Primary Elections

and it only
took them a
lousy $100M!

they
don't
'believe'
in "Democracy"
so they'll just Take
it Away from Us. Citizens
United's thee biggest Threat
to our little experiment in democracy

and they Won't
be Sad to see
the latter Fail.

*aka
wormmy's
sockbott, the
two of them, here
to See To the Demise
of tS and to ALL Progressive
media in the USofA. the Fascists're
not 'knocking on the door' -- they're in
our kitchens eating our Food & drinking our wine

oh and salting their
food with our
tears.

what Was it those
Israeli Hooligans shouted
in Belgium? 'Why are there no
Schools in Gaza - 'cause we Kiiled

all their Kids.' and now Jews planetwide
get the Blame for it, ragardless, as
stated, above, they Do NOT
Support bibi's little keep
outta Prison gambit
aka Genocide or
Massacre cum
Landgrab.

39

@38: “Jewish Lobby,” huh, Kristofarian? 😉 Oopsie!

40

@🛴

"But
did you
know there
are hundreds
of Arab soldiers
in the Israeli army?
Some of them are even
fighting in Gaza!" OMG! well
THAT Proves it. say, didn't some
Black People Fight in Our 'Civil War'?

by your logic
little scooter that's
just Gotta mean Black
People LOVED Slavery!

good thing the donold's
gonna get the 13th Amd
Reversed, eh? I'd Love to be
a fly on the wall to see Clarence
"Uncle" Thomas's face when they
cart him off in Handcuffs after he just
Voted Himself down the fucking Mississippi R.

"but Whattabout
my Motorhome!?"

priceless!
($300K].

41

oops!

"OMG! well THAT Proves it.
say, didn't some Black People
Fight for the South in Our 'Civil War'?"

@39

they may call it the "American\Israeli
lobby," 🛴, but it's as Pro-Zionist
as a Congressional lobby
could Possibly Get.

and now what
with the Blowback bibi's
massive War on Palestine's getting
planetwide it's No Longer anti-Zionist Jews' friend.

or so it
appears.

41

Horseshoe Theory was made up by some nerd who got mean replies from both the left and MAGA to the cringe Hillary meme they posted, and is perpetuated by establishment libs desperate to deflect attention from, for example, the Dem nominee campaigning with Dick Cheney's daughter.

42

@41 Horseshoe Theory is more properly applied to people like antivaxxers.

43

ALL
stable
geniuses
LOVE the Horse-
shoe Theory it Explains
to Magas getting Grifted
at eltrumpfster's teensie handsies
is Thee most Patriotic thing they can Do

and they Lap it up
like it's P.T. Barn-
ams' Finest

they'll be a Potent
Force when they're
Finished w/eltrumpfster.

it may be a Tad
early but when he goes*
whom will he Go like ~ S. Korea's
Yoon Suk Yeol? forgive me ~ the mind Wanders

*when our Dictator for a Day Declares
Martial Law and doesn't get Quite
enough Generals, Admirals, Kom-
mandants or Space Force guys
(other than Elon, Chief of
Space) (duh) (inner and
Outer) to pull it all
Off and he just
hasta Go.

sure
gonna
Miss 'im.

ol' what's
'is name.

44

@42, More like horse's ass theory.

45

@42: What’s the difference between MAGAs not criticizing Trump for his crimes, and the Stranger not criticizing Sawant, for her stumping for the felon?

Opposite poles, inches apart.

If that.

46

what's
the Dif twixt
wormmy and
The Truth? a cou-
ntry Mile, my friend

likely
More.

47

@37 Typical stream of lies coming out of thumpus. I challenge you to find one comment of mine that is antisemitic or any other that would support any accusation that you formulated in your silly comment, you dishonest thug.

It is rather rich that thumpus who literally spends hours almost daily running interference for the blood soaked racist far right government of Israel that is supported by every single neofascist on earth (Orban, Meloni, Farage, Le Pen, etc..) now claims that anti-Zionists are one step removed from the far right. What a clown!

48

it's
still
Early
in its
Development
but when it Finally
hits its Stride there'll be
No catching Up - for better
or Worse -- likely much Much MUCH
Worse for us, the 'Bottom' Ninety Percenters

A I, unleashed
like Unfucking-Bridled
(late-stage!) Capitalism aka
let the Free Marketeers fucking
Decide and Vulture Capitalism'll eat
Us alive, or worse. in the Wrong hands
could it be in worse? -- we're prolly Doomed

but I'm gonna Stick
Around and see what's
around The Next Corner

one
never
Knows.

49

@45 what's the difference between you obsessing over Sawant and Trump fixating on Crooked Hillary or his other perceived enemies? If we're gonna play this dumb game.

It's hilarious the same people who constantly claim Dem candidates need to move to the right and ignore left issues also want to claim the left is actually closer to the right. Cognitive dissonance is a bitch ain't it

50

@47: lol easy, you’ve failed the 3D test more times than anyone else here. Even more than Kristofarian has…and he’s a guy who was literally ranting about “the Jewish Lobby” just up-thread! 😂🤣😂🤣

51

@🛴:

🚑🏛🧻🧻🚽,🧻🧻🌂☂!🎃👗?🩳+👚

🎱--🤿🥏. 🎥🎬🏧!📌⌛🗑. lol! lol! rofl/lolol!

52

@🛴:

🚑🏛🧻🧻🚽,🧻🧻🌂☂!🎃👗?🩳+👚

🎱--🤿🥏. 🎥🎬🏧!📌⌛🗑. lol! lol! rofl/lolol!

53

Trumpus : ...denial of Jewish nationhood...
Isnt that literally anti-zionism? And looking at the current state of expansionist zionism, its a reasonable opinion.

54

@53: Anti-Zionism is, indeed, the denial of Jewish nationhood. I’m surprised to hear it stated so bluntly. Most anti-zionists at least try to dress it up a little. Points for your honesty, I guess! 😜

55

@22 and @23 xina: +2 Yes. We were warned. All the poor working class MAGA turds gleefully celebrating their false claim of "owning the dems" right now will lose all their safety net benefits ( i.e.: Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid, etc.) along with the majority of us to the Orange Turd and its fascist army of billionaires on or soon after January 20, 2025. And when these pro-Turdist idiots go, "Wait-----WHAAAAAAAT?!?!?" I'll be among the first to say I voted for Kamala Harris and Tim Walz. Why didn't they?

@24 Hayduke_Forever: +1 Agreed and seconded. Kristofarian is indeed a commentary gem.

@27 kristofarian: +1 Hear, hear!

@35 Lissa: That must have been one helluva party.

56

@53 Anti-zionism is opposition to the colonization of Palestine, a land already occupied by Palestinians for millennia. If Zionists can manage to obtain land with the consent of those who occupy it I personally wouldn't oppose it even though I am not a big fan of ethno-states

57

@30 as shown by your failure to come up with any evidence to support your gratuitous accusations you have nothing but smears. Typical far right tactics btw.

58

@57 is for @50

59

@56: The identity "Palestinian," short for "Palestinian Arab," dates to the 20th Century, maaaaaaaaybe all the way back to the late 19th Century*. Your blatant re-writing of literally thousands of years of local history -- including , of course, simply erasing multiple long periods of external imperial rule, complete with the external imperial rulers who enforced anti-Jewish policies on said land -- shows even you know any argument which appeals to Palestinians being a long-time indigenous people will fail.

*When it was created/encouraged by the Ottoman Empire, as a way of retaining their external imperial control over the land.

60

@56/57: ha ha ha, even in your post denying your own anti-semitism, you manage to fail the 3D test yet again! Nice one, Bob! 😂😂😂

61

@59 Palestinians mostly descend from people who lived in Palestine during the Bronze age. Whether a Palestinian state existed is irrelevant.

@60 Gobbledygook

62

@59 meanwhile your argument is that certain Europeans have better claim to the land because a fairytale book says their ancestors used to live there thousands of years ago. You are in the glassiest of glass houses on this topic.

63

@62: lol, Jews have lived in Israel continuously for 3,000 years. Countless empires have come and gone but the Jews have always remained. The myth of Jewish disappearance from Israel is one of AverageBob’s favorite arguments, but it’s not an argument grounded in history, it’s an argument grounded in erasure of Jews, which is to say, anti-semitism..

I’m totally unsurprised to see you buy into the anti-semitic “Jews left 3,000 years ago” argument, because aren’t you the guy who once described Hamas’s videotaped beheading of a wounded hostage as an act of Palestinian self-defense? lol!

64

@61: “Palestinians mostly descend from people who lived in Palestine during the Bronze age”

Uh, yeah, those were the Jews! 🤣

65

@63 Most Israeli Jews are immigrants who have lived in Palestine since the 20th century. Only 8% of Palestinians were Jews in 1900 before colonization started. Palestinians have CONTINUOUSLY occupied the land, not Israelis issued from immigration. Stop lying.

@64 Even if true, so what? They aren't Jews anymore. Get over it. This is where you expose your intolerance

66

@65: "Most Israeli Jews are immigrants who have lived in Palestine since the 20th century."

Actually, most Israeli Jews are not immigrants. Most Israeli Jews were born in Israel. You're maybe confusing 2024 with some other year in the past? lol!

But even if true, so what? All Jews, regardless of their place of birth, are the indigenous people of Israel. As a nation, the Jews didn't give up their claim to Israel for a single day, regardless of whichever empire-du-jour had temporarily seized control at any particular point in Israel's history. It is irrelevant whether any particular Jew or set of Jews was born in Israel or in some other country.

Your immigration argument might have merit if the Jewish nation had ever abandoned Israel. It didn't, and so your argument doesn't. Your colonialism argument might have merit if Jews or some foreign power had arbitrarily selected Israel as a random place to establish a Jewish state. They didn't, and so your argument doesn't. I can see why you cling so tenaciously to the idea of Jews as disconnected individuals rather than Jews as a nation—it's central to your case against Israel. Unfortunately, you're wrong, lol!

As for Palestine, they too are a nation indigenous to the land of Israel. The Palestinians are a new nation, a young nation, but nevertheless still a nation. Palestinian nationhood is not grounded in their ancient genetics—you'd have to be some kind of racist progressive to believe something so gross, ha ha! Rather, Palestinian nationhood is grounded in their 20th-century self-conception as a people distinct from other Arabs, distinct from other Levantines. Unlike the Jews, whose national consciousness has an unbroken 3,000-year history, the Palestinian national consciousness has only a 100-year history. But even though Palestinians are a much younger nation than the Jews, they're no less worthy of sovereignty and self-governance, and so I support a Palestinian state alongside the Jewish one.

Of course, the Palestinians will have to give up their longstanding and horrendously self-defeating project of trying to wipe Israel off the face of the map! The ongoing destruction of Hamas is a valuable step in that worthy direction. Palestinians themselves should have destroyed Hamas long ago, as an impediment to their national aspirations! 😘

67

@55

Thank you
auntie Gee!

I\We Appreciate
you, too!

also

arguing with a sociopathic
sockbotic Machine is de-
signed to Distract and's
like pigwrasslin' in a
Mudpit: the pig's
puppeteer Loves
it and Frees his
hands for lots
more Mis-
chiefs

tho it's Not like
there's aLotta
Choice in the
matter.

Gracias.

68

@66 no, the fairy tale book is very clear that the Israelites left the area for Egypt, where they were enslaved, then came back and overthrew the Canaanites to take control of the region. The Canaanites being the distant ancestors of the Lebanese and Palestinians. So Jews have been stealing that land and demonizing its rightful occupants for thousands of years, according to their own mythology.

69

@68: no one other than you is grounding any argument in the bible. But I'm sure you're winning the imaginary bible debate you are having over there, ha ha!

70

@59: My argument goes back no further than UN Resolution 181, passed by the UN General Assembly in 1947. (https://www.britannica.com/topic/United-Nations-Resolution-181)

You continue to reside in the most abysmally ignorant of places on this topic.

71

@69 in that case pray tell what resource you are relying on for your claim that Jews have lived continuously in the region for 3000 years

72

@71: Ha ha ha, wow dude! As you might imagine, a history that is 3,000 years long is attested by hundreds of thousands of sources, both archeological and historical. You can start with Wikipedia if you’re new to Middle Eastern studies, lol!

73

@72 ok so you don't have an answer, cool, thought so

74

@73: Really, Wikipedia is too obscure for you? 😅

ooook, I don’t know how much more basic you need, but maybe try google? Type history of jews in israel, then click literally any link that comes up?

I mean, there are plenty of books I could recommend, but honestly if wikipedia and google are kicking your ass, I’m not sure how much good a book recommendation is going to do 🤪

75

@74 it's not that Wikipedia is too obscure, I just thought you might want to try a different source to support your claim that "no one is grounding any argument in the bible" since Wikipedia says:

"The traditional religious view of Jews and Judaism of their own history was based on the narrative of the ancient Hebrew Bible."

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_history

76

@75: ok then, keep arguing with nobody about the bible! nothing you discover in the bible will alter the historical fact of 3,000 years continuous Jewish occupation in Israel, lol!

77

@75: You claimed (@62) I had based my argument on the Bible. I’ve never done any such thing. Your claim that anyone here based an argument on the Bible, even implicitly, is yours to prove.

Proof of lasting Jewish residence in that part of the world comes from many sources. I would suggest you start with Flavius Josephus’ “Jewish War,” written during Roman rule of the area. (That was a couple of millennia ago.)

78

@4, you've hit the nail on the head with this post. TS has discovered that when employees unionize and get salary increases managment looks for ways to downsize and save money. Rich was an easy target (only straight(?) white guy left), but the rest are sure to follow. Nothing but "guest" articles that don't actually cost anything and a bunch of ads for overpriced alcohol, drugs, and food. Was fun while it lasted, RIP TS.

79

This Randy Engstrom?

With a Lack of Black Men in Authority Positions at Seattle’s Office of Arts & Culture, is Pakistani Heritage “Close Enough”? | by Alliesequity | Medium

Under Engstrom's leadership... "there did not appear to be a single African American male in a position holding manager-level authority.... Since Engstrom took the Director position 10-years ago, he has grown the the office from a staff of 8 to a staff of 32. Yet as we mentioned, with zero African American male managers."

80

@77 averagebob sorted you out at 61. The distant ancestors of the Palestinians were in the region before Judaism even existed. Zionists themselves base their claim to the land in their holy book. It's only you two nerds desperately flailing to make a legitimate historical argument in favor.

81

@80: “Zionists themselves base their claim to the land in their holy book”

…and archaeology…and history…and the reality of 3,000 years of continuous national presence, which no other nation can claim, certainly not the 20th century nation known as Palestinians.. 😁Meanwhile, the anti-zionist claim is based on ignore, lies, and racism, ha ha ha!

82

@65: "Only 8% of Palestinians were Jews in 1900..."

How often must we go over this? Once AGAIN -- and please do try to pay attention this time! -- that figure came after literal decades of the Ottoman Empire, the foreign imperial rulers of Palestine, nonconsensually imposing anti-Jewish discrimination upon the voiceless local population. The Ottoman Empire imposed these foreign imperial diktats upon the locals not out of any sense of fairness to Palestinian Arabs, but to maintain their own foreign imperial control over a conquered land. The Ottoman Empire restricted Jews from owning land, from buying land, and eventually even from making extended pilgrimages to Jerusalem. And the Ottomans were not the first foreign Empire to push baldly anti-Jewish discrimination upon the locals there; the Roman Empire had done so as well. Your argument simply accepts the 'right' of foreign empires to dictate anti-Jewish policies there.

Well, guess what? Your love of imperialism, no matter how deep or sincere, doesn't count for much these days. The rest of us need not accept that the discriminatory, anti-Jewish policies of long-dead empires should now dictate political decisions to us. Please do try to take note of that this time, hm?

83

@80: "Zionists themselves base their claim to the land in their holy book."

I'm not a Zionist, and as I've already explained, base 'my' claim upon UN Resolution 181.

"...averagebob sorted you out at 61."

If by "sorted ... out," you mean, "made completely unsupported claims about a long stretch of history in that part of the world," then ok I guess. Please note that "ancestors of X" are, by definition, not "X," and "distant ancestors" can precede X by many generations, so I'm not sure what, exactly, the statement @61 accomplishes. Most Americans have never even been to most of the places our "distant ancestors" lived, or ever even try to make any claim to those lands.

Anyway, there's a guy in this thread who seems adamant about demanding rigorous proof for any claims about ethnic history in that very same part of the world, so it'll be fun to watch when he shows up, and tears averagebob a new one for making such a sweeping, unsupported statement. (Have you any idea when that guy will return here?)

84

@80

"It's only
you two nerds
desperately flailing to make
a legitimate historical argument in favor."

I disagree:
one Far right maybe-
nerd & his ai sidekick\sockbott

but
yeah on
all the flailing:

when it's Genocide
ya gottta Work
a little Over-
time.

85

just a few facts ....

The First Aliyah also known as the agriculture Aliyah, was a major wave of Jewish immigration (aliyah) to Ottoman Palestine between 1881 and 1903.[1][2] Jews who migrated in this wave came mostly from Eastern Europe and from Yemen, stimulated by pogroms and violence against the Jewish communities in those areas.[3][4][5] An estimated 25,000[6] Jews immigrated. Many of the European Jewish immigrants during the late 19th-early 20th century period gave up after a few months and went back to their country of origin, often suffering from hunger and disease.[7]

[..]

At the beginning of the period, the Jewish population in Ottoman Palestine was around 26,000. Over the course of the First Aliyah, many immigrants arrived from different countries in Europe, Africa, and Asia. By the end of this period, the Jewish population in Ottoman Palestine had grown to approximately 55,000.

The use of the term "First Aliyah" is controversial because there had been a previous wave of immigration to Ottoman Syria starting in the mid-19th century (between 1840 and 1880, the Jewish population in Ottoman Syria rose from 9,000 to 23,000).[8][9]

[..]

The Ottoman authorities recognized the Jewish immigration wave to the land as early as November 1882. They understood from the beginning of the 1880s that it was part of a larger Jewish national plan. Consequently, they took steps to limit the entry options for Jews into the country. Restrictions were imposed, despite the Sultan's permit for Jewish settlement given during a meeting with two Jewish representatives from Romania in May 1882. The scope of the immigration diminished due to these restrictions and the difficulties faced by the immigrants.[19]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Aliyah

86

@83: Again, “[y]our argument simply accepts the 'right' of foreign empires to dictate anti-Jewish policies there.” You’re implicitly making a pro-imperialist argument.

87

@85: lol, you keep barking up the immigration tree but there is nothing up there for you 😄

88

@83 so in your opinion UN Resolution 181 is controlling on this issue. Do you feel the same about UN Resolution A/ES-10/L.31/Rev.1?

89

@84 -- see:
@86 & @87
ad Nauseam.

90

@88: UN Resolution 181 established the legal basis for an Arab State and a Jewish State in Palestine. Six Arab countries, and the Palestinian Arab population, promptly rejected it by force. When you choose war, you choose to accept the consequences of war, and one consequence of that war is the lack of an Arab State in what was once called Palestine. There may someday be an Arab State in Palestine, but it likely will not be as large as the one envisioned in 181.

My personal opinion on the advisory opinion you referenced? Sounds like a good idea, but how would the UN ensure security for Israel during any withdrawal of forces? Oct. 7, 2023 wasn’t that long ago — and the experience of UN Resolution 181 doesn’t exactly inspire confidence, either.

91

@86 The facts show that the proportion of Jews in Palestine was already quite small before the Ottomans curtailed it for 20 odd years starting in 1882. So, saying that Palestinina Jews were a small minority before immigration started is in fact accurate and stating that Muslims were an overwhelming majority of the population before Zionists made it their goals to colonize Palestine is also fact. In other words, your objections are worthless and stating facts isn't an endorsement of anything despite your twisted logic to the contrary.

92

@91: But “Jews were a minority” is such a dumb argument against the legitimacy of Israel. It’s baffling to me that you keep beating your head against a dead end. Maybe it’s that all the arguments against Israel are dumb, so you might as well just keep using this one I guess, lol!

93

@92 only a moron like you would try to argue that the land doesn't belong to the population that occupied it continuously for generations (in fact since the Bronze age) until it was taken by force by 20th century colonizers

94

@90 so are you upset the US voted against the recent resolution? And if Israel refuses to stop building settlements in and restricting rights of residents of the Occupied Territories are they not "choosing war" and obligated to "accept the consequences?"

95

@92 if immigrants illegally flooded the Puget Sound area and started attacking local institutions, and the UN said ok the immigrants get Everett to North Seattle and the locals can keep South Seattle to Tacoma, should we accept that? Would the North Sound immigrant state be "legitimate?"

96

@93: The problem with the "Jews were a minority" argument is that for 3,000 continuous years, Israel never stopped being the homeland of the Jews. The Jewish population in Israel ebbed and flowed during that name, but the continuous Jewish occupation, continuous Jewish self-governance, continuous Jewish claim—none of it ever stopped, not for an instant, regardless of whichever foreign empire happened to be in charge on any given day. If the land belongs to those who occupied it "since the Bronze Age," as you put it, then the land of Israel indisputably belongs to the Jewish nation. Latecomer nations such as Palestinians may or may not have claims of their own, but to erase the Jewish claim is historically ignorant. 😉

You persist in thinking of Jews not as a nation indigenous to Israel but rather as some kind of collection of randos from Europe who have weird religious beliefs. That's not who Jews are, lol! Your misconception of Jews is grounded in your anti-semitism, simple as that.

97

@95: Weird analogy but ok dude...🤣

98

@96 "the continuous Jewish occupation, continuous Jewish self-governance, continuous Jewish claim—none of it ever stopped, not for an instant"

The problem is this is not at all accurate, speaking of "historically ignorant"


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