SL Letter of the Day: With "Best Friends" Like These...

Comments

1
A man who likes to orally pleasure a woman =/= Sub (at least not always), just sayin'...
2
Preach COMTE - not every sexual interaction has to be couched in such limited and dichotomous terms. It drives me up a wall - top or bottom, sub or dom...

I wanna go down on my wife, it's cause I wanna go down on my wife.
3
It never even occurred to me that going down on a woman was something only submissive guys like. Here I am a 39 year old man, and I thought enjoying eating pussy was for persons who enjoy pussy. How embarrassing.
4
20-year-old who marries a 42-year-old probably also has fairly traditional (by SLOG/SLLOTD standards) views on marriage as well. It seems she rather enjoys a watered down version of the master-slave arrangement in her personal life, but wants more in the sex department.

The fundamental problem is that the husband actually has more power in this scenario; both in the technical sense (has the money) and personality-wise, LW is basically a pushover. When you don't have power it's difficult to enforce requirements, and there is really no undoing 2 decades of practiced subservience, this relationship is cold jello.

Anyways, how you deal with it?

You can go the longshot route, and try to "switch" on her hubby and try to dominate him. If he's an alpha male he probably doesn't respond well to weakly-made requests, but the same guy might be insanely turned on by a riding crop, a pair of handcuffs, and a "you're about to find out what's up" attitude. He wouldn't be the first Man-In-Charge to live that dichotomy.

Otherwise, man, go get your pussy eaten on exactly your terms by any/all of the dudes who are begging to do so; shit that may even give her the confidence to get what she wants from her hubby.
5
"She said it made sense that my husband didn't enjoy doing it because it was a "domination thing" that mostly submissive men enjoy."

Yeah, she's really really wrong.
6
Phew! I was on the edge of my seat for Dan's reply but I like the way it ended, tying up all those loose considerations. It was a terrific cliffhanger!
7
Any way she can DTMF? I couldn't stand being in a relationship where I was demeaned and controlled like that (bet she's been groomed since day one). But LW, if you really really don't want out of that marriage, go get that side oral and really discover what it means to have a "good" life ;)
8
oh look, another woman who thinks men are supposed to treat her a little shitty so she just deals with it. how depressing.
9
"my husband didn't enjoy doing it because it was a "domination thing"
Where the heck do people get these insane ideas? Republican conventions? 1930s sex manuals? Shaking my head.

I'd go for the good sex, DOMME, you deserve a break from Mr. One-Trick Pony. But don't be naiive. You most likely will get found out sooner or later. Be prepared for it and the consequences. Like Baretta used to say (back in the dark ages), "Don't do the crime if you can't do the time."
10
sounds pretty fake to me. Anyone else agree?
11
One funny thing. DOMME's husband has some retrograde views of oral sex that frustrate DOMME, while at the same time DOMME has come to her own rather misguided view of oral sex as something done by "sub" men only. Many dominant men will have no problem dominating you and eating your pussy.

In any event, there will be a lot of commenters who support Dan's advice to DOMME that she get her pussy eaten and have great sex. Where I diverge from Dan is that DOMME's statements regarding D/s sound naïve. It's one thing to encourage DOMME to engage in extramarital sex, but another to suggest she engage in D/s without getting some guidance from someone more experienced and/or suggesting some BDSM reading material so that DOMME can get up to speed before engaging in D/s.
12
sp @4
You can go the longshot route, and try to "switch" on her hubby and try to dominate him. If he's an alpha male he probably doesn't respond well to weakly-made requests, but the same guy might be insanely turned on by a riding crop, a pair of handcuffs, and a "you're about to find out what's up" attitude. He wouldn't be the first Man-In-Charge to live that dichotomy.

You might be right, but I suspect he would not want to submit to his wife. He would go to a professional dominatrix if that scenario does something for him.
13
Friend might be right about Hubby's reaction, given the rest of his cartoonish Type-A-isms. And she may be right about subs liking that sort of thing as fitting into their submissiveness (though as far as that goes, "please may I service you?" can take any form from licking her body parts to doing her taxes).

But she's way off base regarding the rest of the male population, in terms of it being a submissive thing in its essence. Rather, it's a thing that people fit into their own worldview however they want. Including the two examples in paragraph one.
14
LW, in the olden days Dan would have said that you need to either a) speak honestly and openly to your rapey, domineering “best friend” about the problems in your marriage, or b) DTMFA and go after the sex life you want and need at this point in your life. When you choose to stay within the relationship, troll online, and possibly seek to experience one of your fantasy lovers in real life, you are by definition a CPOS. You’ve been in a safe, comfortable (?) marriage since the tender age of 20, but it doesn’t sound like it is a marriage of equals. There are definitely better men out there for you, but it's wrong to seek them out while you’re still married to your best friend. End the marriage, keep the friendship. If you can...if you want to.

PS Your friend is nuts. Once you are single, you will find many dominant, submissive, and in-between men all eager to sample your luscious bush. It’s not a D/s thing.
15
Is it really okay in OS world for women to keep their identities secret in online negotiations while demanding real and verifiable identification from men?

As for the letter, we don't have the most important fact - did she sign a prenup?
16
DTMFA, and go get a sex live with a partner who actually gives a damn about you. It's not too late.
17
What a crazy mixed up letter of mis-information this is. It's got nothing to do with subs and doms, everything to do with people in relationships they shouldn't be with unhappy sex lives. I hardly know where to begin:

The kids are now in their teens. They won't be destroyed if their parents are divorced. They wouldn't have been if their parents divorced when they were little.

DOMME is in a horrible marriage. The problem shows up in her sex life, but it's more than that. It's in the myriad of other household tasks that fall in her lap. She's looking for ways to fix what's wrong with outside sex, but even if she got away with cheating (by whatever definition), she'd still be in that miserable marriage with that horrible man. She should get out of this marriage.

She should get a good lawyer and get out with a tidy sum. If she doesn't get that tidy sum, it would still be worth it to be out of that marriage.

I'm surprised Dan allowed the whole oral sex has something to do with dominance thing go on as long as he did even in jest. It's such a colossal misconception that I don't like taking even the slightest chance that some reader will take it seriously and run with it. News flash: Oral sex is just sex, something that 2 people do WITH each other. It's no more doing something FOR someone than going for a walk on a nice day with someone is doing them a favor. At the risk of being boring, men who like giving oral sex just like giving oral sex. Being submissive has nothing to do with it. Nothing wrong with not liking it. Lots wrong with implying that women are disgusting. I don't like bringing out the big guns, but this case might call for it. DOMME might suggest that if Husband thinks women's clitorises are so disgusting, he might be gay.

On the other hand, this letter is 2 years old. I hope DOMME will send Dan an update and that he'll fill us in.
18
Once again, just at 14 comments and already not much to add, mainly just seconding already-made points:
1. Eating pussy has nothing to do with dom/sub mindset.
2. Your husband won't ever change. Seconding whoever said that if he himself has a true submissive streak, he'll go to a pro dom. Don't expect the Pina Colada song, here.

3. I wouldn't have stayed in a marriage this unequal, but I also did a dumb thing or two at age 20. Bearing down on 40, you're gonna have to figure out how much good you get from this marriage, to counter the multiple counts of bad that you've listed. Can you make it on your own, got skills/money? Speaking of handcuffs, have you developed expensive tastes, whose satisfaction outweighs having a satisfying sex life (which you will never, ever have with this insecure choad; 'Oh my god, she's on top and enthusiastically riding me! I'm being attacked!'?
4. You can get it on the side once or twice and carry it off, but I wouldn't bet a nickel on you stopping after the first time a new guy makes you come like a dump truck...in Body Heat, Mickey Rourke had a line related to committing crimes, that went (roughly) 'There's about a hundred things that can go wrong, and you're only smart enough to think of fifty of them.' If I were...assisting you, in your new search for pleasure, I'd also be worried about you having a couple cocktails, getting pissed at hubby, and blurting out, “You think you're so cool, but you never did a thing for me in the sack, and this CB guy makes me come for so long I start to think that it's a career, hic.
'Best friend' or not, you've built up almost 20 years of resentment, and I wouldn't bet a second nickel on you keeping it to yourself.
4. Whatever your thoughts on the morality of stepping out of your marriage, if you think that you're actually close, as in minutes or seconds, to getting good, satisfying sex, your mind will start to function as though on drugs; talking faster than an auctioneer on a triple expresso and more persuasively than a motherfucker to justify getting that sweet love. The Horny Mind is the goddam heavyweight champeen of rationalizations, and is literally chemically affected. Know that this will happen, if you put yourself in a situation where something besides talk might happen.

5. If it comes to divorce, the Golden Rule is in play: whoever has the most gold, makes the rules. You don't mention kids, so...

We end up back at the wedding scene from Four Weddings and a Funeral, and its question, which ended with, and remember, this is for the rest of your life.
19
The husband is 60 and a "type A" personality. I suggest that she dote upon him, with all manner of creamed meats and heavy baked goods, while replacing any pharmaceuticals he may take with sugar pills. She might also encourage him to relax with a nice cigarette or two.

If she plays her cards right, divorce won't be an option and she'll be free to have any number of men visit her nether regions.
20
"Is it really okay in OS world for women to keep their identities secret in online negotiations while demanding real and verifiable identification from men?"

Until rape and murder are no longer disproportionately a safety concern for women, certainly. Was this a context-free curiosity or were you attempting to make a specific statement here?
21
@4: "the same guy might be insanely turned on by a riding crop, a pair of handcuffs"

The same guy who wept fear-tears that the wife's request to ride him was "assaulting" his person? Fuck no. Not even a consideration. He barely sees her as a human being, let alone a peer, let alone someone able to top him.
22
Ummm ... wtf? I love giving oral, and I also like to tie my partner to the bed and order her to please me (that was her idea, btw, and we both get off on it). And sometimes she slaps me around and rides me like a champ. LW's husband is a moron and she should go get some sexual pleasure for herself. If you go soft as soon as you feel like you've lost complete control of the situation then you are probably one of the most insecure people on the planet. It's pure weakness, and frankly a little pathetic.
23
Venn @15 (? I think - there are no numbers on the posts), this isn't just OS world in general. This is an attractive, non-pro domme trolling for slave-boys. A unicorn among unicorns. And yes yes yes, those prospective slave-boys will do whatever it takes to win the hand of the true princess, including giving her all of their bona fides while she retains her aura of mystery. Talk about setting someone up for disappointment - the winning candidate shows up at her door, and all she orders him to do is go down on her!
24
Remember when Dan believed there was such a thing as a “CPOS” (cheating piece of shit)? Now apparently one’s monogamous partner can be “begging to be cheated on” simply by not providing a sexual service the LW wants. I think the anti-Dan-Savage commentators are right, and he really is pushing a non-monogamy agenda.
25
DTMFA.
26
@24 - There's a lot more going on in this letter than just one particular sex act being off the table. I think most of us can agree that if a considerate, otherwise-GGG partner is against doing a particular sex act because it happens to squick them out, but is willing to go the extra mile with other things (toys, positions, fingering/petting, props) to make sure their partner is still getting pleasure and enjoyment out of sex, then that's not a good reason to cheat. The letter-writer's husband isn't just refusing to do oral, he's also showing pretty much no interest in his wife's pleasure or agency. The only thing that matters to him in bed is what he wants, not what she wants. That's not equal or fair.

I think nearly two decades of unsatisfying, controlling, esteem-damaging, 'rapey' sex does justify one looking for something better on the side. And hopefully once she does get with some men who really want to give her pleasure and appreciate her, she'll realize that she is still a sexy, beautiful woman who doesn't need to be shackled to a 1950's stereotype for the rest of her life and DTMFA. (Ideally, she wouldn't need the men for this, but let's face it - when you've been put down for so long, sometimes it takes someone really appreciating and celebrating you to help you get back up.)

As to oral being a submissive thing - tell that to the guy who used to tie me to the bed and eat me out for so long I couldn't hardly breathe. :D
27
@19: "The husband is 60 and a "type A" personality. I suggest that she dote upon him, with all manner of creamed meats and heavy baked goods, while replacing any pharmaceuticals he may take with sugar pills. She might also encourage him to relax with a nice cigarette or two. "

Win.
28
Sublime @11: "DOMME has come to her own rather misguided view of oral sex as something done by "sub" men only. Many dominant men will have no problem dominating you and eating your pussy."
And the vast majority of vanilla men will have no problem just plain eating your pussy.
29
@27. lol
30
@26 Sure. I was distilling it to Dan's statement, though: "...begging to be cheated on." That's just a bullshit thing to say.

"I think nearly two decades of unsatisfying, controlling, esteem-damaging, 'rapey' sex does justify one looking for something better on the side."
It justifies leaving, not just finding a stunt dick/tongue.
31
I am usually long winded. Not so much now: DTMFA 🤐
32
Oops. I hadn't noticed that the letter was from 08/2014. I wonder what action(s) the LW took and the outcome?
33
@32 I'd really like to read a follow-up on this one, too. Lots of moving parts.
34
@28/BiDanFan: Well I assume it's most, of course I haven't taken a survey, although I have identified a number of women who enjoy exploring their submissive side and having their pussy eaten.
35
Mr. Venn @15, yes, when I was agreeing to meet men for sex, I held out for men whose face pictures were posted on their work's website. I would send them a face picture and full body picture, but nothing that would let them find me at home or work.

I didn't know how to pick for good sex, and I wasn't looking for a relationship, so it was easy to prioritize safety over any other factor. I thought, these men will be easy for my husband and the police to track down if I don't come home in one piece. And that gave me the confidence to go to a hotel room with them.

It's not a path to good sex, but it's a way to feel safe while having casual sex.
36
I should add that I'm pleased with Dan that there was no "who needs enemas?" punchline in the letter.
37
What she doesn't want to lose is his paycheck and the lifestyle this type A professional asshole provides. She should DTMFA and damn the consequences. No one should have to live with this shit.
38
Your husband is a selfish lover and your best friend is a shaming, controlling asshole. Let this go.
39
@37: "What she doesn't want to lose is his paycheck and the lifestyle this type A professional asshole provides."

And where did she say that? Or is this just the opinion of another asshole?
40
38's right; she needs a double-DTMFA. Or we need a new acronym for "Dump Both Those Motherfuckers Already."

Depending where she lives, it might be "Dump Literally Every Person You Know."
41
Shouldn't he have told to her to find some non-sub/dom individuals to do this with? Why conflate ideas in a way that would only likely make her own issues more complicated. There are plenty of 'ordinary' guys out there that will gladly go down on her.
42
This woman has been raped for 18 years. This is an incredibly disturbing letter and I hope this woman escapes and gets a lot of therapy. In a perfect world, there would be actual police you could call about a situation like this.
43
41 -- "Shouldn't he have told to her to find some non-sub/dom individuals to do this with? Why conflate ideas in a way that would only likely make her own issues more complicated. There are plenty of 'ordinary' guys out there that will gladly go down on her."

Well, she did say this is the happiest she's ever been in her life, and she seems to be having a blast with her new online friends. I don't see why anyone would arbitrarily recommend that she forget THESE online friends and go find different new friends? Like, why? She likes what she found. Her letter gives us no indication that there's any problem with her new friends. There are plenty of 'ordinary' guys who are submissive.
44
What the shit? I dated a man for 11 years, the only man I had slept with, that only once went down on me, in the shower, because vaginas were disgusting and just to cum in.
It took me years to heal from that abuse and body hating, resentful feelings of disparity of equity.
Sub men are absolutely not the only men that enjoy eating pussy. I think you'll find that the only men that enjoy eating pussy are non complete sexist controlling SELFISH jerk straight/bi men.. Oh yeah - men that do not have an inherent or deeply internalised hatred and fear of women. Imagine if the clit was as sexualised as boobs. Oh yeah, boobs are for mens pleasure. It is not a coincidence that the major centre of womens pleasure; the clit, is ignored, unknown, feared and even disgusting to these men. Basically your husband is a manipulative woman hating jerk that has conflated female pleasure with ''him being attacked''
This is some deeply seated bullshit, divorce your asshole best friend and start sharing your sexuality with those that don't oppress and subjugate it, but celebrate it.
45
Well, there are tons of men who love going down on women. I would question the sexuality of a man who isn't attracted to a vagina, especially if they call the vagina 'disgusting' . I've heard gay men say they find vaginas disgusting, but its because of their sexuality. As a straight man, I can never eat enough vagina. If you live in the Portland area, I'd be happy to take you out to dinner, spoil you, and service your vagina for desert. If eating pussy was a full-time job, I'd work overtime.
46
No correlation between sub, dom, anywhere in between and enthusiastic oral. Ridiculous. Maybe the friend was thinking of that episode of The Sopranos with Uncle Whats-His-Butt being humiliated by the mob guys for having a reputation of being an enthusiastic pussy eater.

LW - Hopefully you're long out of the marriage and your ex is not a mobster but please be aware that most men are enthusiastic about oral, especially if you're an enthusiastic giver and receiver yourself.
47
fpl @45
I would question the sexuality of a man who isn't attracted to a vagina

I'm hetero but not really attracted to vaginas. Not that they are disgusting or anything like that, just not especially attractive or arousing. More like a "neutral" body part.
I would cheerfully go down on a woman if that gives her pleasure, but it would be the "giving her pleasure" which I'd enjoy most of all, not the act as such.

My impression is that many women feel more or less like this about blowjobs.
48
Sublime @34: People who are submissive are not necessarily ALWAYS submissive. Most people who enjoy kinky sex also enjoy vanilla sex, and oral sex falls under the category of vanilla sex (though, like any sex act, it can have D/s elements incorporated into it). They are two different things, is the point I was trying to make.

@38/@40: Uh, the husband and the best friend are the same person.

Campfire @43: And if what we have learned in Savage Love is to be believed, dominant women are WAY rarer than women who like receiving oral sex, so if this woman has found a way to create high demand for herself then well done her. She deserves it after all the crap her selfish prick of a husband has put her through.
49
@48: "Uh, the husband and the best friend are the same person."

In this case they were referring to the friend who said that the husband was 100% right, wife was in the wrong, only "submissive" men liked giving head. I'm sure she goes to the same church as the husband...
50
Undead @49: I've re-read @38 and I disagree:
"Your husband is a selfish lover and your best friend is a shaming, controlling asshole."

DOMME refers to the person who gave her such crappy advice as "a friend," and her husband "my best friend."
I don't see how anyone could characterise giving inaccurate sex advice as being "a shaming, controlling asshole."
51
I am a 61 year old recovering Type A hubby. I love licking pussy and am not even vaguely submissive. You have some bad info.
52
Just how much does my vanilla husband love eating pussy? He comes when I come.
53
Just how much does my vanilla husband love eating pussy? He comes when I come. Hands free..
54
Melania? Is that you?
55
Has anyone else noticed that DOMME, although she claims to have discovered her interest in erotic power exchange after her friend's throwaway comment, finds herself the sub in an unacknowledged erotic power exchange with her husband? I'd suggest the next time her husband wants a wank, instead of sending him to the shower, lie back and relax with him, maybe smoke a j, and talk to him about all this d/s stuff she's discovered (leave the chats out, and label them fantasies if you like) and how she finds power, including his power, a turn on. She may have to spend a lot of time communing with her sub side, but if she can turn her husband on to the joys of a proper kinky relationship, her chances of exploring her domme side with her husband's enthusiastic consent dramatically improve.