Savage Love Letter of the Day: The Terminator

Comments

1
Is she sure she doesn't just need a little more convincing?

I figuratively tore out a couple of tufts of hair as I read her letters .
2
@1, Damn, I know.
3
Too many Doms seem to take 'no, I really don't want that - it's a hard limit' as a challenge. He isn't worth your time, unfortunately...
4
I breathed a huge sigh of relief at the end. Have fun out there but keep safe folks.
5
This is a rehash of the guy who wouldn't shut up about threesomes from day one even though it was hard no for the LW.
If someone brings something up that early and that consistently, best believe it is important to them.
Don't waste a year+ like that lady did, HAHAHA.
6
My inner 13-year-old had to snicker at "pull the plug."

But srsly Dan, helping her get out of this relationship (if you can call it one) was a good deed.
7
@6, spokane, that donut in your icon looks amazing
8
Sorted then. Good call, Dan. Some people seem to have real trouble hearing. This guy was one of those people.
9
I wonder why she hates anal so much?
10
@9.not really your business, is it?
11
@9 Maybe she's like me. I hate anal. Trust me, I've tried, following all the advice that people give about enjoying anal.

It just does fuck all for me, physically or psychologically. It's somewhere on the spectrum between "tiresome buzzkill" and "outright painful." I wish that weren't the case, because so many straight men are obsessed with it, and I feel like I'm not living up to some sort of cool girl image I've created for myself if I draw a hard limit at no anal. Then again, it pisses me off that I feel like I have to justify not wanting to do something that I just don't enjoy.

I think some people just aren't wired to like anal, and I'm one of them. That's all.
12
@10,
LW's the one who brought it up. It's my business (and everyone else who's reading) now.
13
@9/12 - all she brought up is the fact that she doesn't like it; she doesn't have to explain why.
15
@9/12: I have to agree that LW doesn't have to explain or justify to the erstwhile Dom, or you, or anyone her sexual likes and dislikes anymore than you or any of us do.
She doesn't like it and that should be that.
16
@14: In formal BDSM (as opposed to "I like a little kink/ roughness as a topping on my vanilla"), there should ideally be a clear line between talk time and play time, to make clear which no means no and which no means "no" (wink wink). She said no during talk time, which really means no.

In practice, there are a few annoyingly playful subs who "doth protest too much" during talk time and hope the Dominant will read his/ her mind about what he/ she really wants. An ethical Dominant, of course, will err on the side of affirmative consent, and avoid anything during play that was not negotiated in advance. They might end up with some sulky subs as a result, but those subs need to use their words and stop trying to blur lines.

I could forgive this Dominant for asking again, given that such disingenuous protestations are a thing. He could have been genuinely curious whether "no anal" was a genuine hard limit. Personally, I wouldn't raise the issue again unless the sub did, and I wouldn't want to play with a sub that wouldn't straight talk, but it's understandable to double check if the Dominant was really into this particular sub and anal.

But it's absolutely unacceptable that he tried to revive the issue during play. Sub space is some heady stuff, and trying to renegotiate boundaries and consent during play time is akin to trying to ask someone if they're really sure they're not into anal when they're rip-roaring drunk.
17
@9

Do you like getting it anally?
18
@2

That third tuft of hair wasn't going to be from my head.
19
@7: Speaking of, you've got a snazzy avatar yourself.
20
So she single? Well baby lemme just say, I ain't into anal either. Puuuuurrrrrrrrrrrrrr
21
@13, 15,
Where'd I demand she's gotta explain it? I'm just wondering. She's the one who brought it up, and I wondered why she's got such strong feelings about it. She doesn't wanna talk about it? Fine. But if you guys think she's immune to questions "just because?" well fuck that. She wanted attention and she got it. Her letter and question are really pointless. I could have given that advice... any of you could have... it's simple... and I'm no expert. IMHO this chick just wanted attention. And she got it. Thanks Dan. You guys are defending her total lack of giving a shit about this. Why? Not that any of this matters since she prolly doesn't even read this rag. Damn... some people...
22
@17,
I did when I was younger, but just by myself. I've never really liked it with a partner, though I've given it plenty of tries. Just doesn't do it for me. Though if I was with someone who was really into it, I'd be game. After all, I don't hate it, I just don't get anything out of it.
23
Huh? Anyone else wondering where this came from:
"I would be concerned about him 'outsourcing' anal to one of those other guys, i.e. turning a blind eye when someone else violates your 'no anal' limit while you're helpless."

What other guys? HAHAHA never mentioned anything about group play.

And, Urgutha, gotta agree that HAHAHA owes neither you nor her ex-boyfriend nor anyone else an explanation as to why she doesn't like anal. She doesn't like it because she doesn't like it. Your insistence that she's not allowed to opt out of anal without a reason you find acceptable is pure rape culture. Give it a rest.
24
@23: What other guys? HAHAHA never mentioned anything about group play.

Perhaps a detail lost to length editing of the letter, like GIDI's husband smoking indoors.
25
@23 - It was in one of her replies to Dan, in the note that she sent to her wannabe 'Dom'.

"I'd still love to continue, have you tie me up and have anyone you want use me and abuse me, all of that."

And @21, why are you so hostile toward the LW? She has a legit question, even if it is a situation similar to many we've seen here in Savageland.

'This guy is perfect except for this one little thing, can I keep him?'

But if course the little thing is a huge thing, and Dan was able to give her the proper perspective on it. No need to get all in a tizzy over it.
26
There are a ton of reasons why someone might not like anal and emphatically not want to talk about it. Like, maybe one has a major case of IBS and can never be really sure about cleanliness for the length of a date.
27
Ginnie @26: Or like, when she's said "I don't like anal because X", the hearer has replied "Well I won't do X/we can work around X/how about if Y" instead of just accepting that she doesn't like anal.

Do you have to explain in detail why you don't like marmite, or are you allowed to just not like marmite?
28
I hate marmite. Vegemite, now that's different. My daughter somehow got into marmite. How did that happen? I've never bought it. Someone, without my permission, snuck some marmite to her when she was little.
29
@21: "Her letter and question are really pointless. I could have given that advice..."

And your advice would've been quite bad, based on this post.
30
"I consent to kink/poly/whatever, as long as my partner doesn't do X. My partner insists on doing X. What should I do?"

Pro tip: That's the wrong partner.
31
@27 I know all that, was just providing an example for those in this thread who seem to be confused about why would anyone hate anal so much.
32
@31: The ones claiming she "wants attention" aren't looking to humanize the LW and her concerns, sadly. These clarifications usually wash over the people who raise these idiotic objections.

That said, I wish my spouse liked marmite/vegemite. They mock me with https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=RJhDV0MMPA… ;(
33
Asking a question about the sex act central to the letter is not rapey. Urgutha didn't make a demand. He just asked. Boy, this thread went off the rails fast.
34
@33: Ah, the old "I'm just asking questions!" idiocy.

That's not just JAQing off, it's making a value judgment on her, which he continued to do well beyond the scope of curiosity. Are you really this dense?
35
For fuck's sake, the issue is that the boyfriend is not accepting her lack of consent, way to take his argument out into the comments.

Your opinions are absolutely irrelevant to her best interest.
36
Sorry Ginnie, my comment @27 does read more like it's a response to rather than a continuation of your excellent point. :)
36
@3 IMHO, that is a far too common attitude and I agree completely.

Even without the skeezy mid-scene negotiation* this fits into the "He/She is perfect except for the one thing I can't have in my life in any fashion" trope and he's not the right guy for her.

*Not *ALL* mid scene negotiations are bad but any attempt to renegotiate a hard limit when a partner is judgementally compromised should be taken as seriously as it is. The entire kink scene has been blowing up about consent (injuries/violations/issues/etc) for a couple of years now and this type of behavior would fall well within many people's definition of consent violation.
37
@21 "This chick just wanted attention" made my stomach turn. I'm pretty sure the woman in question wanted advice. Hence her email to an advice columnist.
38
@26/27/34 pretty much nail it. If someone says they don't like something and are emphatically opposed, the issue at hand is what kind of rapey partner would still push for it. Turning the conversation to "well why don't you like it" is offensive. No one asked why he liked it so damn much, by the way. And honestly, not liking anal is a lot easier to understand than being obsessed with it to the point where you're willing to try and coerce your partner into it when they are vulnerable.
39
Oh yeah, I forgot how overly sensitive SLOG commenters generally are.
40
@38

Rape! Rape! How dare you presume why the LW doesn't like anal? None of your business! Even wondering about the reason is rapey!
41
@39: You're confusing "overly sensitive" with "possessing empathy."
42
It could just be bad luck and incompatibility that he truly, honestly can't do without anal, or he could be one of those doms who demonstrates how irresistibly dominant he is by finding his sub's hard limits, whatever they happen to be, and tapdancing all over that boundary.
43
@36: "The entire kink scene has been blowing up about consent (injuries/violations/issues/etc) for a couple of years now and this type of behavior would fall well within many people's definition of consent violation."

If my smallish sampling was any indication (though it probably wasn't) it's more than just a couple of years. Seems like a permanent hot topic.
44
@21 -

@13 here. I realize you never "demanded" an answer, and I agree that it's OK to wonder out loud about it since HAHAHA did put it out there. Nevertheless, "not your business" is a valid response to "just wondering."
45
@39/40: Or you could just not be shitty!

Just a thought.
46
"Even wondering about the reason is rapey!"

He didn't wonder. He decided it was because she liked attention. You really are that dumb.
47
@10 and others... Yes. 100% it is the LW's right to simply not like anal, not justify why, and to declare it off limits. A good Dom should not be renegotiating limits during sex. Having said that, I have met a fair number of women who didn't like anal because they had a bad experience, and a significant number of those women liked anal after they had a good experience. Many women are somewhere in the middle - they like their butt touched but not penetrated, or only penetrated with a tongue, or only in combination with some other sex act etc, depending a ton on mood, timing, and all the other variables of feeling sexy. Its totally legit for her dom to try to figure out why she does't like it so he can react/adjust appropriately - he just didn't react/adjust as he should have, especially if he was hoping to change her mind.
48
@47: uh-oh
49
I think that when someone says on the first date: “I hear that you don’t want to do X, but if we keep dating, we’re going to do X eventually” (which he did say) – one is best off not going back for a second date unless you’re open to that possibility.

And, doesn’t it seem as if she ends up open to the possibility? At the very least, open to some anal play, with a toy, right? (“I've agreed to try it though”). That was not subspace compliance, that was her considered, sustained agreement while out of scene. Because that agreement was about the future, at the time when she wrote to Dan and was not in subspace. Yes, she didn’t expect to enjoy it, but she seems open to the idea that she might enjoy pleasing him by giving him something difficult for her – and getting turned on by that is key to some subs’ submission.

As for pushing her hard limit in scene, which is ordinarily a Really Bad Idea, for me it depends on how clear she was that “no anal” meant “don’t go near my butt” versus “no PIA.” If he honestly thought that toys-in-butt were not part of her explicit hard limit, then I don’t think it’s unreasonable for him to move slowly in that direction, checking for her reaction before inserting anything (which he did do).

Doms aren’t fetish delivery services, unless you’re paying them. Many doms are aroused by feeling that they control their partner, and often control is made apparent by getting one to do something one doesn’t intrinsically want to do.

She apparently is happy to move on and try to find someone else. That’s great; I’m glad she’s happy now. But I think sub women in search of a dominant male (and tired of the guys who are game to try but really don’t get how to do it) should at least consider having a face-to-face conversation with the guy about why he did that thing that disturbed you (assuming it wasn’t specifically ruled out by prenegotiations). It’s too important a conversation to have by email, if one feels there’s a strong connection.

TLDR: if she said before the scene: don’t even think about going near my anus, then I’m with everyone else. But if she only said: “I don’t do anal sex. Do you understand that your penis won’t go in my ass?” – then I’m not convinced he’s a terrible person.
50
"Doms aren’t fetish delivery services, unless you’re paying them."

This is something more people should know. The kind of thing that ought to be intuitive, but isn't.
51
@47: And how many of them did you progress with after they told you not to?

Not seeing the relevancy.
52
@EricaP, I think you are being way too soft on this guy. I totally see where you're coming from being a sub, but it's a bad dom who immediately goes for pushing the limits. "Doms aren't fetish delivery services," that's true, but doms in general have a responsibility to go out of their way to avoid being abusive and good doms are thoughtful and careful about this shit. His behavior reminds me of those shitty "doms" on collared.com (or whatever the url was) who jump on you and think that since you're submissive you have to immediately submit to them in everything. That's not how it works. She said "no anal," she "reiterated it several times." That should being enough for a decent person to just drop it, at least until they establish a stable connection that allows for some safe discussion/exploration of boundaries. Also, if she said "no anal," any sane person would suspect that butt plugs might be problematic too, not bring it up in the middle of a scene because she didn't say "no butt plugs either."
53
@18, LOL
54
Thanks goodness we all eventually get old, get hemorrhoids, and anal goes off the table for good.
55
@32. Undead. You like Vegemite? Or marmite? They are different.
Yes, the world mocks us for our love of Vegemite. Well fook them.
We love our vegemite.

@53. I don't understand this obsession in the hetero community with anal. It was never on the table when I was young, now it seems like an expected part of everyone's sexual practices. Not my idea of a good time.

56
@Ginnie, I agree he showed bad judgment. But so did she, going back for a second date with a dominant guy who said he eventually intended to do anal with her.

I do think he should have responded to her emphatic "I don't like anal" with more conversation with their clothes on, to find out what sort of ass play she was okay with. Spanking okay? vibrator on the outside? But she also had a responsibility to say what was clearly off-limits. I don't think "I don't like anal" is clear communication in a D/s context.

In vanilla dating you're trying to find the zone of things you both enjoy doing.

In contrast, in D/s it is absolutely legitimate for the dom to want to figure out the zone of things the sub doesn't enjoy but doesn't put off-limits.
57
@47. I think EricaP answered pretty well for me @49. I have had happy, consensual, ongoing anal sex with women who have, at one point, also told me that they don't or won't ever have anal sex. My point was that there is a great deal of variability with whom, how, and when a person might be into or open to trying a given sex act, and there is no harm in asking or discussing trying something a person may not have been into before. Dan and the other readers fault the Dom for being pushy, re-negotiating in the middle of a sub scene, or trying to use a moment of submission to overcome her previously stated objections - I agree wholeheartedly and those are legit reasons to DTMFA. The Dom certainly didn't give the LW any reasons to consider opening her mind or her ass...
58
I'd be perfectly willing to try vegemite or marmite if I could acquire some, but am not really curious enough to go to more than a nominal amount of trouble.
59
@59 - Try a World Market. I usually see both when I'm there searching out my McVitie's Digestives...
60
@55: Both? I only have Vegemite in the cabinet right now, though. I just don't make enough buttered toast and cheese these days to go through a jar with any frequency.
61
I still want to know why she hates anal
62
I'm with asymptoticbliss @57
And I still don't understand why Urgutha Forka @toomanycommentstoremember wants so much to know why she doesn't want to do anal. She doesn't, it's her business: the point is him not respecting a boundary, whichever the boundary is. Would boundary be "I don't wanna go to the cinema, ever", then it would be the same... he still weren't allowed to invite her out for dinner and, once she was on the car, take her to the cinema instead (or after dinner).
NB: for me, politely and carefully investigating - at an appropriate place and time - the whys and the whats to see whether she could be willing to give it a try under some specific conditions, and investigating just once or twice and no more, AND taking a no as a final answer, is still respecting boundaries.
63
@47: This is a fair point. Generally, I don't like anal, to the point where I state it up front: if this is something you're into then you probably want to look elsewhere. However, there are circumstances under which I do enjoy it. The correct approach would NOT be to insist (on the first meeting!) that we are going to do it at some point or try to override the limit during the scene (on the second meeting!), but, once trust is established (trust being top of the list of circumstances), talk about it again. Ask whether there are any situations when she might enjoy it. Do not push it. Either the penetrating object or the concept itself.

Erica @49: "If he honestly thought that toys-in-butt were not part of her explicit hard limit, then I don’t think it’s unreasonable for him to move slowly in that direction, checking for her reaction before inserting anything (which he did do)."

If he honestly was confused about what "no anal" meant, he should have asked. And trying to insert something into her butt on their second meeting is not "moving slowly in that direction." It's refusing to take no for an answer. Glad she DTMFA'd.

Lava @55: "I don't understand this obsession in the hetero community with anal. It was never on the table when I was young, now it seems like an expected part of everyone's sexual practices. Not my idea of a good time."

I do believe that porn is to blame for this. Even when I was young, anal was not on the to-do list. An advanced, and niche, sexual move. I had a flatmate who worked in a porn video shop for a while. A sincere young man came in and asked if they had any videos with no anal, and she said, "No."
64
I don't think UF's question @9 is inappropriate. Not because the LW "should" provide an explanation for not liking anal, or to put her under pressure to do it, simply because we are here to discuss sex and reasons for liking or disliking anal, or any other sex act, are interesting. So I believe UF when they say that they are "just wondering".

For what it's worth, I have only ever been passive in anal. No special desire to "top" anally, though it might happen some day. I also have the impression that being passive in anal was easier when I was younger. Not sure why, it might be that I'm out of practice, or it could be an age thing.
65
Anal can be painful.
Anal can be humiliating (some people are turned on by that, others are not).
Anal can be uncomfortable.
Anal can be messy.
Anal can tickle.
Anal can conjure unpleasant associations with bodily functions most people do not like to mix with sex.
Anal can, as Ginnie noted, be incompatible with certain medical conditions.
These are a few possible reasons why a person might not like anal.

There is also the possibility that a previous partner violated HAHAHA's limits regarding anal, thereby putting her off anal for life. (If this is the case, disrespecting her limits yet again will certainly not be the way for her to put the trauma behind her and learn to embrace it. Nor will forcing her to talk about it, duh.)

Urgutha, pick one or all of the above. Now you can stop wondering.
66
Let me lead by saying the guy sounds like a douche, trying to game the Dom/sub system to get his way. Fuck that guy, or rather, don’t fuck him. And better to be too clear than too vague with your boundaries, in future.
Some girls love it in the ass, but if one said no butt-play, I don’t see why you’d even venture a pinky that way.

#55 Lava - There’s hardly ‘an obsession’ in the Het community with anal. As Dan has told us, it’s not even SOP in the gay male community. There are several factors at work -
Many hets are curious, or actually do find anal pleasurable. If a young couple is fortunate enough to start going by Dan’s oft-given advice for first-timers, they may well keep it in their repertoire. Unfortunately, most young men’s anal penetration technique seems to be not unlike a plumber snaking a drain open, which leaves the woman with a permanent dislike for this act.
Doggie style and blow jobs used to have a strong ‘naughty’ vibe to them, ‘oh, good girls don’t do that,’ much like tattoos were seen before the mid-90’s. You used to hear, “Dude, she’s wild, she’ll do it in any position, pretty sure nobody was talking about reverse-piledriver.
Watching amateur MILF porn, the actresses pretty much all say, well, now that I’m in total control of my sexuality and know what I like, I give the world’s greatest head and my favorite position is doggy style. It was like, you had to reach a certain age to own liking stuff like that.
But much as now a woman having a tat, even a fairly large one, no longer means she's a biker chick or a stripper, what was transgressive sexually before is just no big deal now.
Remember a week or so again, when ATM was mentioned, and several people wrote in to say, not that crazy or abusive, my gf and I enjoy it? Kind of a surprise to me, but the same trend. See also, eating ass.
Of course, some people think anal lets the girl stay, officially, a virgin, i.e. ’saddlebacking.' And the no-pregnancy angle.

Dan’s pal Tristan Taromino (sp?) did a how-to video on anal as well, but IMO kind of spoiled it by casting all pro porn stars, who couldn’t seem to turn off the overacting switch. The only hot part (for me) was when Tristan herself entered the fray. Haven’t seen Nina Hartley’s tape.
67
Cat @66: Oh, I don't know. Ciods posted an article the other week that noted that in 1992, 16 percent of women aged 16-24 had had anal sex, but today it's 40 percent. That doesn't sound unlike "an obsession" to me. Particularly when most women report that they don't like anal sex. They're obviously doing it because of external pressures: from porn, and from men who watch porn. A lot of young girls see anal as something they have to do, not something that's a niche interest for a few, and I think that's sad.
http://www.nytimes.com/2016/03/20/opinio…
68
40%, especially if it’s not qualified, doesn’t necessarily sound like an obsession to me; I expect that at least 40% of women between 16-24 have at least tried rum, but there isn’t a national movement making altars to Captain Morgan.
With, as noted, the factor of anal sex, like other previous taboo/bad-girl acts going more mainstream, that number’s not surprising at all. Since anal doesn’t automatically get you branded a slut/ho/whatever, not surprising that they’re trying it at a young age, and given the aforementioned usual young-man technique, I’m also not surprised that the first time’s not a good time.
Back to blowjobs: in the early 80’s and before, kind of a treat for the elite, nothing that was regularly on the menu. By the mid-90’s, Dr Drew on Loveline was reporting that high school kids were seeing just as a part of making out. Not sure if he added that ‘oh my gahhd’ with clenched jaws that he does.
“Most women don’t like anal’ is a bit of a sweeping statement, especially when not controlling for age. What are you basing that on?

I agree, as I’m sure everyone here does, that it’s a shame women aren’t given better sex ed, including the role of their own pleasure.
69
A lot of young girls see anal as something they have to do, not something that's a niche interest for a few, and I think that's sad.

Completely agree.
70
Muscles resistant and sphincters that tickle. Unpleasant sheet stains and bowels so fickle. Humiliation and windbaggy sounds, these are a few of my reasonable grounds...
71
It does seem to be more of a thing now, for whatever reason. I'm generally for more things being out there and available and destigmatized, but I agree that it's unfortunate if it's mostly being introduced to people with pressure, as something they're "supposed" to do (the same is true of all sex acts). And doing it to keep your virginity is just that sort of young-kid stupid that makes you feel sad.

I quite like anal, although I don't do it all that often. But when I'm in the mood, and able to be relaxed (which are not always the same moment, unfortunately) I enjoy it. For me the sensation is much more intense than PIV, and combined with the right situation, can make for mind-blowing orgasms.

That said, it's not automatically that way; getting there takes some work, and it really helps to have a partner who pays a lot of attention to all your signals, verbal and non! I probably wouldn't like anal either, if I'd only had partners like the first two I tried it with. In that case, I would have given a reason off the list BiDanFan gives @65 and written it off.
72
BiDanFan @63. I agree that more conversation was warranted (see @56). But she didn’t actually say “no anal” in prenegotiations. She said, according to her letter, “I don’t like anal.” Which is subtly different in the context of D/s. (I forget whether you’re into D/s at all or not.)

On that second date, we don’t know that he “tried to insert something into her butt” in the sense of lubing it up, and pressing it against her anus. All we know is that he “wanted to.” And she said “no.”

If they were having a light scene, and he didn’t think she was in subspace or disoriented in any way, and he said: “I know you don’t like anal, but I very much want to put this very small toy in your ass, how do you feel about that?” And then waited to hear her reply... I don’t see how that makes him an asshole.

He should, however, have understood that she was very new to D/s, and that meant they should have more conversation (with their clothes on) about her hard limits and what was on the table.
72
@LateBloomer @70: That pretty much made my day.
73
Also, just re-reading the letter again, what do people make of her line: "I like to be lovably forced into rougher sex"?

What do you think she means by "forced"?
74
@73 Eh, I guess you want people to read it as "she asked for it"?
75
Cat @68: I can Google, but while there is lots of data on the percentage of women who've had anal sex, there's not much data on how many of them enjoyed it.
http://www.gq.com/story/anal-sex-new-dea…
35% of women who've had anal sex enjoyed it, that means 65% (the majority) did not.

Wikipedia says: '"Studies indicate that about 25 percent of heterosexual couples have had anal sex at least once, and 10 percent regularly have anal penetration."[8] The increase of anal sexual activity among heterosexuals has also been linked to the increase in anal pornography, especially if a person views it more regularly than a person who does not.[4][44][45][63]'
So if 25 percent have tried it and 10 percent do it regularly, it stands to reason that the other 60 percent of those who tried it didn't enjoy it. (And that the main reason for not trying it is a belief that one will not enjoy it. And if you don't think you'll enjoy something that takes as much relaxation as anal, it's highly likely you won't.)
Besides, there must be a reason it's referred to as "the wrong hole."
77
Ginnie @74, or rather, that maybe she didn't communicate clearly what kind of D/s play she wanted? And whether she wanted to be "forced" to do something she didn't especially want to do, or not?

If we see the guy as very experienced, then yes, he should have understood her poor communication as a sign of being new. But if he's relatively new himself, this sounds (to me) like miscommunication rather than an evil abuser.
78
Bi @75:
So if 25 percent have tried it and 10 percent do it regularly, it stands to reason that the other 60 percent of those who tried it didn't enjoy it.

I disagree. Some may not do it regularly because it requires more prep time and work. There are plenty of sexual activities I enjoy which I don't do regularly: anal sex, forced sex scenes, fisting, rimming, cutting, butt plugs, other toys, what have you.
That said, I do approve of your correct use of percentages.
79
I don't seem to recall anyone calling the guy an evil abuser. But he did try to push her stated hard limit very very early on in a completely unacceptable manner. It doesn't really matter if he's new or experienced, she doesn't need to be his teaching aid. Maybe her walking away will serve as an etiquette lesson for him and the next time he'll know how to open those lines of communication while not in the middle of an active scene. And maybe she'll learn to be clearer in her stated limits, too. Either way, continuing with this guy could potentially open her up to a bad situation, and there are other, better Doms out there to explore with.
80
@77 I don't think he's an evil abuser. For all I know he's an amazing person who donates all his income to charities and gives blood every weekend. But in this situation, based on what LW told us, he seems to have acted in a shitty manner and not like a responsible dom. Being dominant does not give him the right to be pushy and obnoxious and not respect others' boundaries.
81
sanguisuga -- it wasn't a stated hard limit. It was something she said she didn't like.

Doesn't anyone else see a difference?
82
'I don't like this' on a first or second date means 'don't go there - at least not yet'. It doesn't mean, 'test me, big boy'. Trust needs to be established before even broaching the subject. I understand that you're coming at this from the perspective of a deep-seated sub, but that's not what she is. She describes herself as a 'girl who likes a little dominance in her life'. She's at a stage where she wants to play, to explore. In order to do that safely, she needs someone who won't immediately start probing at her ass when she says 'I don't like anal'. To me, as someone who often takes the dominant role in my relationships, that IS a stated hard limit, at least in the beginning. Once we get to know each other a bit better, once they trust that I'm not going to go straight for 'X' when I've got them in a precarious position, that's when we can start opening up negotiations. This guy has already proven himself to be untrustworthy in that regard.
83
Erica: I don't see a difference, no. She said she didn't like it. There were a million other things he could have done, but he chose to push the thing she said she didn't like. On their second meeting, at that.

Oh, Sanguisaga. That "at least not yet" is gonna be all he hears, you know. She's going to have to say no at least 28 times before he gets the picture.
http://www.thestranger.com/slog/2016/03/… #50
84
BDF, you made me giggle. This is true, if that's what she had said, but I sort of translated it my own way. What she said very clearly was 'I don't like anal'. There's really nothing in there to interpret any other way, and it's the fact that he absolutely ignored it that makes him a bad Dom, if he's a Dom at all. As much as I might look forward to a certain activity (funnily enough - pegging!), I'm willing to put my own wants aside until my partner *willingly* and *happily* bends over for me. That act of submission is what turns my crank more than the pegging itself. If it's a grudging, 'oh alright', or an uncertain 'I guess', then I'm not going to get anything out of it. He's just a greedy little boy who wants what he wants, and to hell with the person at the end of his dick. That's not a Dom at all.
85
@8 No. Because there is none. She said she didn't like it, that should be enough. If after building trust between them he wants to ask and she wants to try that would be one thing. But we have someone doing something they were explicitly asked not to do on the second date. If he's not willing to listen to her then do you really think he's going to listen to her later? Or that he's not going to push every boundary she has until he goes too far?
86
Common sense tells me that starting a new D/s relationship with splitting hairs between bard and not so hard limits is a really bad idea. It's not "everything's game unless you explicitly pronounced the words "hard limit"."
87
I agree that he should have asked for more information about what she meant and what her hard limits were, and what she meant by "forced into rougher sex" and what scope he had to play around with things she didn't enjoy.

But when you have a connection between someone dominant and someone submissive who starts feeding on that dominance, the line between in-scene and out-of-scene can be fuzzy. So then it's less useful to focus on the difference between what is discussed in-scene and what is discussed out-of-scene.

@85 "we have someone doing something they were explicitly asked not to do on the second date."

That's not how I read it. He didn't push a toy in her ass and ask forgiveness afterwards. He let her know he wanted to. And he held off when she said no. To me, he doesn't seem unreasonable. But I'll admit I look for more assertive dominance than most people do.

She didn't want what he was offering. So it's great that they were able to identify that incompatibility early on.

I'm glad she doesn't seem traumatized by having been presented with his desire to do something to her that she wouldn't enjoy. Personally, I'm kind of excited by his desire to do something that his partner wouldn't enjoy. But that's how I roll.
88
@65: "Urgutha, pick one or all of the above. Now you can stop wondering."

They have the imagination to come up with all these scenarios, they just don't care about the LW enough to empathize.
89
sanguisuga @84, you should dom the way you want to dom, and it's great that you want your partners to happily submit to whatever you have in mind.

But there are other ways to play.

Some people appreciate a dom who will do things to them that they dread. It's true! Subs like that exist. I'm one of them! So it's nonsense to say that an edgier dom isn't a dom at all. Better just to say he doesn't seem to be a good fit for the LW.
90
In that case Erica, what's the point of stating preferences at all? If you are fine with a Dom taking you to places you don't really want to go too. I assume you communicate this to any Doms that come your way, so you don't do their heads in. " I don't like so and so, but Id like for you to do what I dread."

This situation is different, I assume. She said she doesn't like anal which means she doesn't like anal. That he tried to push past her stated preference, means he's a Dick Dom not an Edgy Dom.
91
@89 - I'm not saying that I don't push when the scene calls for it. I just do it with people who know me and trust me and that I trust in turn. I don't play casual, and edgy stuff should not be casual anyway. Even if a play partner is someone that you see yourself connecting with on a deeper level, the second date is not the time for pushing those boundaries. And again, you're most likely subbier than she is, no doubt far more experienced and knowledgeable about what you can withstand. You're allowing that experience to color your opinion - you're putting your expectations onto the LW. She doesn't have those years under her belt yet. She can learn more about her limits with someone who will respect those limits, and then decide whether or not she wants them to be pushed.

Maybe you can email Dan and see if he'll forward that picture to you, and maybe seek this 'Dom' out for yourself.
92
I think we already had a discussion like that, EricaP. I'm fine if my partner ends an argument with a slap in the face, but I know I'm not an average person and I wouldn't think about advising someone obviously different from me to be okay with their partner doing that.

As for not being traumatized by the experience, what worries me is that she actually wonders if she should assert her boundaries at all, not a good thing IMO.
93
Erica @89: In order for me to agree with your read of the situation, I'd need to hear that HAHAHA told her partner "I don't like X, but I do like being pushed into doing things I don't like." There's no indication she said this. There's no indication she's you, in other words.

As far as "how many women like anal," that could probably be determined from how many women request anal rather than just being GGG for men who ask them to do it. I fear any analysis will be based solely on anecdata and confirmation bias, though. (I'm personally surprised that a full third of women actually do like it. But then, that probably corresponds to the far higher percentage of submissive women than I had expected. Anal sex isn't always an act of submission, but it's certainly got very strong submissive associations.)
94
I like, request and offer anal.

For me it has very egalitarian connotations. Everyone [almost] has an asshole! Anything I do to your ass, you can do to my ass.
95
BiDanFan@93 "I'd need to hear that HAHAHA told her partner "I don't like X, but I do like being pushed into doing things I don't like."

And the words "I like to be lovably forced into rougher sex" don't convey some of that?

Again, I'm not saying the dom did well (more communication would have helped), but he was under some pressure to give her an intense experience, including (perhaps) forcing her in some way, to distinguish himself from the unsatisfying experiences she had had before.
96
Ginnie @92, I wasn't advising her to tolerate anything she didn't want to tolerate. Just advising having a face-to-face conversation about why he did that thing that disturbed her.

Assuming she's not scared of him, and assuming she felt a strong connection -- it's too important a conversation to have by email.

Talking this hard stuff out is how you figure out compatibility for D/s.
97
@95 "And the words "I like to be lovably forced into rougher sex" don't convey some of that?"

Sure, but those words weren't said to the Dom. They were written to Dan to give him some context. We have no idea what or how much she discussed with the Dom. But it seems that they had long conversations about sex, considering that she got to state "several times" that she doesn't like anal before they even met. So I think it's safe to assume that their sex convo went beyond that one sentence.

Of course it's still possible that she didn't communicate clearly, as we really don't know what was said in detail. But I don't get why it's so important to you that she must be at fault, too. It's irrelevant to the question (which was about whether or not to dump the guy, which she should and did).
98
Steamed Hams,

I don't get that EricaP thinks the LW was at fault. I think she just sees some room for the dom not to have been an irretrievable rapist asshole.
99
@EricaP, but in your comments until now you have presented it as standard dom behavior. It's not. If anything, most people into bdsm are more concerned about not violating someone's boundaries. I know this from my husband's experience: even after asking about a dozen times if a particular activity is okay, he still runs the risk that the sub failed to communicate important information (such as that it's not okay with their primary partner and/or they have experienced sexual assault in the past. In short, his experience tells me you can't be too careful, and here we have a dom who's anything but careful). I am really sorry though that I undoubtedly came off as rude and aggressive towards you. Actually, as a sub I'm not particularly concerned with my own (physical) boundaries so I kind of understand your angle.

@Alison Cummins not rapist asshole, just male entitlement asshole.