I'm a bisexual-leaning-towards-lesbian woman. Only one of my male lovers identified as bisexual, and that always disappointed me. Not only did I find it fun and interesting when my boyfriend was also bi, but in my (admittedly limited) experience, a man who knows what it's like to BE fucked is also better at fucking. ;-)

All of which is to say that while SOME bi women may dump bi male lovers, others of us prefer it when a guy is bi.

UGGGH!!! THIS SORT OF CRAP MAKES ME WANT TO SCREAM.

Ok, now I'm done screaming. Look, it's not ok to fuck other people and not tell your partner about it. I really don't give a shit if it happens a lot. That does not make it Ok. Your wife is, quite literally in every sense, trusting you with her body- her health. And she has every right to know and make choices about what her body is exposed to.

And this has nothing to do with being MSM- I have the same frustration when men want to fuck women and not tell about it or women want to fuck men and not tell about it. It has to do with the fact that it's totally wrong- to the point of immoral- to expose someone else's body to risks of which they are not aware. And sex is risky. Period. It's not OK.

That doesn't mean you can't do it, regardless of how your wife feels. It means that you are making a choice, and she has the right to make her choices too. So you tell her what you want. She agrees or doesn't. Then you decide, given her agreement or disagreement, what you are going to do. And you tell her what you are going to do. Or at least tell her what you did. Maybe there are consequences to that. You weigh consequences against your desires. This idea that you get to do whatever the fuck you want regardless of how it affects other people is just total bullshit.

Not that I disagree with Dan here and it sounds like the husband has chosen to be honest, so kudos to them. Just that I'm sick of this idea that it's somehow becoming OKish to cheat and lie about it. It's not OK. It might happen anyway, but that doesn't make it OK. That makes you a fucking coward.

(This is not a sexless marriage BTW or a DADT situation- in both cases it would be different. And I have no problem with a husband who wants to sleep with other men. My own hubby's reluctance is really the only downside in our sex life. Also I'm not some giant advocate for monogamy- we were open for years and might be again one day.)

You KNOW she is going to read every one of these comments.

And this guy and his wife are not looking for a single dude for an MMF threesome why? Seems pretty weird to think his wife, down for a MFF, wouldn't be down for an MMF.

@chi and LW's wife...

Well if she does read the comments, let me add something. Two guys together can be really HOT. It's not just about not being a hypocrite- it's also about her. Now she's bi, and I'm straight, so I don't know that it works the same way for a bi woman, but for me, it was a revelation how hot it is. It's because there really is a bias (especially if you are over a certain age) whereas it's always been kinda OK for girls to be together- especially if it's in the presence of a guy- but it's never OK for guys. Even if you know that's stupid, sexual feelings usually have little to do with your logical mind.

So here's something to keep in mind. The first time you are exposed to anything, it can seem a little odd because it's new and/or because you have some preexisting feeling about it. It's always worth exploring that feeling a little in a safe way. What I mean is, it might be a good idea to expose yourself to two guys before you jump to the NO or jump to the NOT MY HUSBAND. Like easing yourself into cold water. I personally had the odd (perhaps?) experience of having a really open social group when I was young (20s, so appropriately young), so I was able to witness and participate in a lot of things in a safe way pretty early on. But I'm sure there are clubs/parties where you can safely watch before you decide. Or ease into it with parameters first- things you and your husband decide are OK and things that are going too far. Once you get used to that, it's easier to take the bigger steps. My initial reaction was "my man with another guy?- omg this is weird and how could I ever compete?" but by the second time, it was more like "I really like the male body" and then after a while it became "jesus christ guys are so gorgeous, this is the best thing I've ever seen." It's an objectification that can be really hot because it doesn't concern YOU at all, and that can be exciting in it's own way and transcend over into your own sex life.

My point is just that while it's ALSO awesome just to support your husband in getting his freak on (and look- he didn't cheat- keep it open and honest, he's going for that), it can be really fucking hot for YOU too. Part of the reason your husband is cool with you being bi is because he knows he'll get to watch and participate sometimes. Take the same liberties.

And since this is a couple with a woman for you, it could also be a really nice friendship. Friendships like that can really do a lot for your marriage too, especially when both couples are invested in their own marriages. So, not knowing the wife at all, that's my encouragement as am older married woman.

@4 I might be misreading the letter, but the difference is that the majority of MMF are threesomes for the woman, that may or may not (but usually not) include MM sexual contact. So what the LW describes is them looking together for a woman they both like. He says nothing about his wife being interested in fucking another guy, and he also says nothing about his wife being interested in him fucking another guy. So this is different territory because the husband wants to fuck a guy- not watch or participate with another guy as he (or they) fuck his wife.

As a bi woman who's dated a bi man, one thing worth noting about the possible apprehension is whether bi man is a cuck or into swinging. Personally I didn't mind if my boyfriend fucked other men, but asking me to fuck other men was a fetish too far.

Wondering why, if RHETT's wife is so great, and bi to boot, he is so reluctant to come out to her.

Great job on this one Dan. There is something I'd like to add though.

There are two things that upset women when they find out their male partner is bisexual (or bi-curious):
You already mentioned the first one Dan. There's a very old stereotype that all bi men are actually gay men in training.
The second issue is also based on a stereotype, you know the one - gay and bi men are extremely promiscuous.
I'm sure a lot of women (even the bisexual ones) are afraid that their recently out bi male partner is going to be hooking up every time they leave the house; and that those hookups are going to be unsafe hookups.

The answer is simple, and it's the same answer that works for most relationship issues.
Communication.

Of course, gay and bi men are stigmatized and skapegoated in our society, and they have been for years. Some women will end a long term relationship over a reveal like this no matter what her man says or does. It's sad, but true.

Hopefully the LW's wife is understanding and GGG, and everything will work out for the best.
Actually, if the LW comes out (and I'm sure he will) everything will work out for the best regardless of what his wife does.
If she's cool with it, it's all good.
If she isn't, and she leaves him for being honest with her about who he is, than he is better off without her.

I have a good feeling about this one Dan. It would be great if you did a follow up. I'd love to see how this turns out.

A caveat for all the haters out there:
Of course there are other reasons why a woman might leave in a situation like this. The two reasons I gave are not an attempt on my part to exclude the possibility that some women might have their own reasons for leaving a relationship like this. Rather, it is my attempt to address this issue and is purely my own opinion, not a statement of fact.
Your mileage may vary.
♡★♥☆

@6 you're writing it wrong (or reading it wrong). If someone says MMF, then by definition they are describing / wanting MM contact as well as MF. If it's a three way with little or no MM contact desired, one writes it MFM.

Can I just bitch-slap the bi women who dumped their bi boyfriends, and also refer them to this: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-…

Speaking of bitch slaps, RHETT deserves one for even thinking about cheating on the wife he's simultaneously talking to about exploring new sexual territories with. But, good to admit he faced temptation and rejected it.

Steve @4: There is a different dynamic to inviting a third partner into your existing relationship versus being the third partner for an existing relationship. If RHETT sleeps with this couple and it all goes wrong, he can walk away and never see them again. The same would not happen in an MMF with his wife. Perhaps for this reason, RHETT views a three-way with strangers as safer for his first time. (See this letter about relationships "surviving" threesomes: http://www.thestranger.com/slog/2016/08/…)

Finding a longterm, male, bi partner is my dream. Tell her, LW.

@12: I'm with you on all of that.

Double standards are definitely in play when it comes to bisexuality over in Opposite-Sex Land. While most men are only too happy to date bi women, most women are wary about dating bi guys. . . . And while bisexual-but-heteroamorous women (women like your wife, RHETT) rarely view their own bisexuality as evidence of secret/latent/metastasizing lesbianism, many view male bisexuality as evidence of secret/latent/metastasizing homosexuality. (I have two letters in my inbox from bi guys who were dumped when they came out to their bi girlfriends...

I think the fact that most men don't view female bisexuality as evidence of secret/latent/metastasizing homosexuality is why "most men are only too happy to date bi women." I wonder why there's this difference. Why are women so much more suspicious than men that any interest in the same sex by their partner means that their partner is "actually gay"? And it doesn't even have to be an interest in the same sex. For example, I've seen letters from women concerned that their husband/boyfriend is "secretly" gay just because he likes his ass being touched by his wife/girlfriend.

12/BiDanFan: Can I just bitch-slap the bi women who dumped their bi boyfriends...

You never know....they might like that.

Don't forget, Ladies;
doing the dirty deed with a bi guy greatly increases your odds of getting exposed to HIV.

@17,

Sexual contact with a man greatly increases likelihood of exposure to STIs. So if your measure of What God Likes is STI transmission, God wants all women to be exclusive lesbians and all men to be celibate.

You’re welcome.

@17 you're confusing the science on "men who have sex with men" with "out, open men who have sex with men." Two entirely different populations.

Open, out non-monogamous people I know (straight, gay, bi, male, female, whatevs) tend to be pretty safe when it comes to HIV risk.

It's the down low folks who are the risk -- all orientations and gender identities, especially men who have sex with men on the DL but that's a whole different group of people than out bi men. And we know that monogamous straight couples are at MORE risk of STIs than open relationship straight couples, due to high rates of risky cheating among ostensibly monogamous couples.

@10/AdamKadon suggests two reasonable issues that women may have partnering with a bi man; I'll suggest another. I believe that even today, many people see men who engage in same sex encounters as less masculine, whereas women who have sex with women are every bit as feminine (and desirable). Hetro and bi women who share this bias will view their partner as being less "manly," whatever that means, and therefore less sexually desirable.

@4/Steve Dorner, @6/EmmaLiz, and @9/Scribbles: I also wondered why RHETT was immediately turning to another couple, rather than suggest to his wife that in addition to trying a MFF, that he would be interested in a MMF. Obviously, it would be up to RHETT's wife whether to engage with this man, but I'm not sure why RHETT presumes the idea of having access to two men would be appealing to her, and I think she should get the right of first refusal (assuming that she would be ok with RHETT having sex with another couple). Of course, it's always possible RHETT rejected this scenario because his wife has already made clear that the idea of sex with two men would be unappealing.

Not to stir up things again, but when RHETT wrote "we met one person for a drink but she didn't do it for us. I have no doubt we'll one day find our elusive unicorn . . . .," this was the scenario I understood to be the basis of the term unicorn. The hard to find woman that appeals to both him and her. When I originally broached this, someone scoffed at the idea of a couple turning down a possible (hard to find) third, but here you go.

An addendum: When I wrote "reasonable" I mean reasonable guess regarding why people think or behave in a certain way, and not understandable (or acceptable).

@20, maybe they should think of a sex worker / sex workers. A unicorn for pay is not so hard to come by (or with consent on or in) and they can pick one they both like.

@18: ⓣⓞⓟ ⓚⓔⓚ

@18

Gosh. So many factual errors and misconceptions crammed into one short paragraph;

If one and one's partner practice CDC recommendations to avoid STDs;
abstinence until in a long term relationship and monogamy therein and thereafter;
a woman having sex with a man would face virtually no exposure to STIs.

Also;
according to the CDC
men who have sex with men account for 2% of the population but 83% of all HIV diagnoses among males.
So having sex with a bi male is a very different, much much greater risk than having sex with a man who does not have sex with men.

And Lesbians have their own rich witches brew of STIs:

For example; Bacterial vaginosis is more common in lesbian and bisexual women than heterosexual women and can increase a woman’s chances of getting other STDs such as HIV, chlamydia, gonorrhea, and pelvic inflammatory disease.

Also (from Planned Parenthood)
"A common myth about lesbians is that they are immune to STDs. But two people with vaginas can pass all kinds of pathogens back and forth. Read on to find out some of the ways — other than penis-in-vagina intercourse — that sexually transmitted pathogens can hitch a ride from one person to another.
"Cunnilingus can transmit STDs such as syphilis and herpes. Syphilis, for example, causes infectious pus-filled sores that can be found in the mouth or below the belt — meaning that cunnilingus can transmit the bacteria that cause syphilis from the mouth to the genitals, and vice versa.
"Furthermore, most of us are infected with the type of herpes virus that causes cold sores, even though we usually don’t have symptoms. (One study found that about half of women who have sex with women were positive for this virus!) This virus can be transferred from the facial area to a partner’s genital area to cause genital herpes.
"Two people can stimulate one another sexually simply by rubbing or grinding against one another. When it is done without clothing, risk is increased for the transmission of human papillomavirus (HPV), herpes, syphilis, and pubic lice.
"HPV and the herpes viruses are both spread by skin-to-skin contact. So, rubbing two sets of genitals together can allow these viruses to jump from one partner to the other. This includes HPV, the virus that can cause cervical cancer — meaning that Pap testing is recommended for lesbians.
"Same with pubic lice — since they live in the pubic area, they can easily make the journey from one partner to another during times of intimate contact.
"Oral contact with the anal area can transmit syphilis, herpes, hepatitis A, or intestinal parasites. Intestinal parasites, as well as the virus that causes hepatitis A, are both transmitted by feces. Therefore, ingesting even a microscopic amount of your partner’s fecal matter can do the job.
"Manual contact with a partner’s vagina and external genitalia can transmit trichomoniasis, chlamydia, gonorrhea, HPV, and herpes if cervical or vaginal secretions are shared. For instance, if you finger or fist your partner and then touch your genitals, you might make a direct deposit of your partner’s vaginal microbes into or around your own vagina. Likewise, if you touch your mouth after manual contact with your partner’s genitals, you might give yourself an oral infection. In some cases, you can even give yourself an infection by touching your eyes — yes, gonorrhea of the eye exists!
"By the same mechanisms that fingering or fisting can transmit STDs from one partner to another, manual contact with the anus can transmit hepatitis A,intestinal parasites, gonorrhea, HPV, and herpes if anorectal secretions are shared.
"Sex toys can transfer secretions between partners, which could transmit the same types of STDs that can be transmitted by digital-vaginal or digital-anal contact. "

Shazaam!
If your God wants you to have all these STIs (and pubic lice and intestinal parasites….) perhaps you should consider being an atheist?

You're Welcome

@19

No.
You're confusing the science on "men who have sex with men" with your anecdotal dingleberries.
Spend some time on the CDC website and inform yourself.

Furthermore;
"And we know that monogamous straight couples are at MORE risk of STIs than open relationship straight couples blah blah blah cheating blah blah"
Invest in a dictionary.
"monogamous straight couples" by definition are not cheating.
perhaps the word you seek is monogamish?
or just, cheaters?

Dude, have a little faith in your wife. If she gives you a hard time for being bi that's a whole lotta hypocrisy. The fact that you're considering cheating before telling is troubling. I understand why men hesitate but I (a woman who is mostly straight if speaking in Kinsey scale terms) have always been turned on by men together. The whole time I was reading your letter I was thinking how hot it would be if you and your wife had a foursome with the other couple. Good luck.

Roma @15: I think part of the reason why many men accept their girlfriends' attraction to women is because they don't think of lesbian sex as "real" sex, since there is no penis involved. Therefore, their girlfriends' wanting to eat pussy is a turn-on but not simultaneously a threat.

(I seem to be the unlucky one who gets the insecure guys who think "you'll leave me for a woman." Sigh.)

Commentator @17: Trollololol.

Sublime @20: "women who have sex with women are every bit as feminine (and desirable)." This perception is no doubt helped by the ultra-feminine appearance of most of the women who star in "lesbian" porn. Men generally aren't watching butch dykes go at it, are they?
And if I'm the person who "scoffed at the idea of a couple turning down a possible (hard to find) third," you misread me. My point was that the pickier a couple is, the lower their chances of making a unicorn fantasy happen. That's not scoffing, it's being realistic.

Cont - I do think that couples have the right to be just as picky as they please about who they sleep with. But picky narrows one's choices, and since the pool of "women who will have sex with a couple" is already very small, they'll need to decide which is more important: making the fantasy happen or ticking all of their boxes. Only a very hot couple will be capable of doing both.

Society’s lower esteem for bi/gay/cross-dressing men should not be rested exclusively on women’s shoulders.
Men not only feel threatened some times by the seen above, but would also look down at someone who “voluntarily gave up his man’s rights and honor.”
Many fathers would rather have a lesbian daughter they secretly admire than an awfully embarrassing gay son.
Attitudes and misconceptions sip down to the rest of society.

I haven't seen much commentary from gay men on this. But I will add some thoughts.

So you are curious about men, sexually. What are you curious about? You can certainly get with a couple who identify as bi and feel what a man's penis feels like when erect. You could probably do some M&M [mutual masturbation - melt in your hands, not in your mouth]. Or frottage, screw the man [be screwed] through the legs while someone sucks the dick. Or let a guy suck you. You can do all of that without coming out as bi. There are also plenty of guys who fuck men and think they are straight because they top. You might get away with that. It is when you throw your legs back and yell "Fuck me with that big ol' dick" or you start kissing a guy that you particularly have a problem.

Now I am monogamous while by partner is monogamish. He is the only man I have been with for the last 30 years. I am a Kinsey 6 while he is a Kinsey 4 or 5. At one point he almost married a woman and he has said if he had done so he would have been one of those men who cheats on their wives with men. You know, the married guys who get arrested having sex with men at truck stops, toilets, or in porno shops. I would prefer it if he was monogamous but we have a DADT policy about that. I know he sees other men (though I don't think he does so much any more) and it would probably bother me more if I knew he was seeing women. If I was guessing I would say it has been over 40 years since he has gotten together with a woman. But he is free to do so.

Strangest @30: May I ask why it would bother you more if he was seeing women than other men? Because if I were in your partner's position, I'd be getting all the dick I wanted, and I'd be far more interested in occasional pussy on the side than yet more dick. And if I were in your position, I'd be less threatened by a person who clearly offered something I never could than someone who represented direct competition. But these seem obvious from the bisexual perspective; the gay view is obviously different, so I'm curious to understand.

I could understand feeling more threatened by women if the relationship were in its early stages, or if his preference were for women. Hetero privilege is quite a temptation. But after 30 years, I don't think you need to worry about him jumping back into a closet.

@13 - have you had a partner who was bi? It's so hard/complex to find someone with the right mutual sparks and that you hit it off with enough for long-term potential as it is, that sometimes I wonder if holding out for someone who's bi would be just an impossible thing to add to the mix. Or maybe that's ridiculous to think?

g@33
Certainly part of the equation, like few other traits you should consider while dating. Some of the hetest of them all may have some issues-sexual or otherwise- that may also require discussions, maybe even a compromise of some sort if in the framework of a committed long-term relationship. (Needless to say, free agents are free to negotiate as they please.)
Based on what I see around me this attitude is already implemented by many youngsters.

@33 I have been with male bi lovers in the past (safely), but have yet to come across anyone who fits the bill for a long term pairing...but I keep my eyes open and it's not a deal breaker, just wishful thinking. Currently I'm living in the Midwest tho and it seems as if my options have slimmed. *le sigh*

27/BiDanFan, thanks for the comment. Seems like a plausible explanation.

LW: Our sex life is great and I love her more than words can express.

More than words? I feel a song coming on....

@27/BiDanFan: "This perception is no doubt helped by the ultra-feminine appearance of most of the women who star in "lesbian" porn. Men generally aren't watching butch dykes go at it, are they?" While I wholly agree that the "lesbian" porn viewed by men does not feature "butch dykes," I'm not sure how that is relevant. I don't believe that "lesbian" porn convinces men that women-on-woman sex is acceptable, since it seems that most straight men gravitate toward that genre already finding those images erotic. In any event, the "straight" or bi women that are dating men and who are interested in having sex with women in the presence of their male partner aren't "butch dykes" either. In addition, "lesbian" porn doesn't explain why society might view gay or bi men as less manly.

Ms Fan - They're also probably past one of the biggest "social diseases" by this time - you know, the one you want to avoid (nine letters, starts with P). I'd rather cope with HIV, and perhaps you would as well.

Having been in a similar situation, I think you might be going a step too far assuming a male partner equates to getting all the M one wants. It doesn't seem to be the case for Mr Strangest's partner. As for what would worry one, personally I could see being concerned not with direct competition but with the idea that venturing into OS land might be a symptom of or might lead a partner into craving a completely different sort of life. (One sees this cut both ways on various sides.)

Another "fear" not covered and something I experienced when coming out to my wife, is the perception that I am hiding other things. Like, "You're bi? Great. What else have you been hiding from me?" Of course, the other person being cynical probably doesn't help the situation. But it's something guys should be ready for when they go down that path with their SO about their sexuality.

Sublime @37: The fact that the women who star in "lesbian" porn aimed at men are very feminine is absolutely relevant to your claim that men don't see bi/lesbian women as "less feminine (and desirable)." How could that not be directly relevant?

As for why society views gay/bi men as "less manly," perhaps it ties in with virility being linked to fathering a lot of children. If you're sleeping with guys, you're not fathering any children, and therefore there's no evidence of your manliness. But don't ask me; the less "manly" a guy is, the better, from my point of view.

Venn @38: No, HIV is still a life sentence, while pregnancy can be cured in a simple outpatient procedure. Agreed, though, that perhaps Mr Strangest's sex drive is higher than his own. And as we all know, men are much easier to find when casual sex is what you're looking for. Fair point, well made.

Tex @39: Another good point, if a sad one. Bolsters the "come out early" advice.

Ms Fan - From your point of view, sure. But for an MM couple, there's at least the potential for a third or fourth person to take a lot of agency away from the couple - or even just the non-involved half. Even FF couples aren't immune. Ms Cute will doubtless have seen the recent letter to New Prudie from the woman who was completely put out because she and her (I think) fiancee had decided LW would be the one to bear their child, and then Fiancee went out and got pregnant the old-fashioned way.