Savage Love Letter of the Day: Her Husband Voted For Trump (She Thinks) And She Wants Out

Comments

1
Nothing more to add but DTMFA ASAP. And fuck Trump and all his enablers.
2
"Tell him if he touches you without your consent, you'll report him for marital rape."

WTF is "marital" rape???

Rape is Rape!!!
3
"What do I do? Someone needs to fuck this man so that he's nice to be around"

So he can knock up randos as well?
4
Yes, you need to leave this man. But when he refused to get a vasectomy, why didn't you get an IUD or a tubal ligation? Take ownership of your own fertility.

Sounds like you are taking control of your life now; do it with birth control as well.
5
I think it's a bit much to expect him to get snipped permanently for someone who's said she's out the door in two years. IUDs rock, get two.
6
@2: Dudes like that literally believe there's no such thing as rape within a marriage, the distinction is well understood by Dan although I don't think it'll make the creep take it any more seriously.
7
Do whatever you need to do to protect yourself, your kids and you mental and emotional well-being for the time it takes for you to leave. Don't talk with him about what you're doing - he's not the person who can help you plan this, and there's no need to set yourself up for sabotage. And no, you don't owe him any conversation. You owe it to yourself and your kids to make the best life possible for your family. Can you find someone to talk with who can support you? A therapist? Maybe through a women's center or shelter? I think it would help you to have someone in your corner. Also, yes to the IUD or tubal ligation, based on whether you might want more kids in the future. You don't need his permission. Don't even discuss it with him - just take care of yourself. I'm rooting for you!!
8
Sounds like she's married to my husband. Except the last child we had, because he sabotaged birth control, is special needs and requires constant care, so we can't really leave because he won't keep his job to pay child support. I've slept on the sofa for three years because I won't tolerate his crap, even if I can't actually leave at the moment. Hopefully the letter writer manages to maintain her boundaries and gets out she she is able. I don't see the trump presidency making life easier for single moms any time soon, so work on that business and the less he knows the better.
9
PattiH @4 and nelfini @5, many women do not tolerate IUDs well (random stabbing pains, severe pre-menstrual cramping and spotting, super-heavy menses, and occasionally even a perforation of the uterine wall during insertion), and tubal ligation is a far more serious and expensive surgery than vasectomy, which is typically a 20-minute outpatient procedure. But the medical realities are almost beside the point. A harried mother of four young kids, at least one still a nursing infant, seeks advice on how to elude her troglodyte husband's verbal and sexual abuse during the two years she must continue to live with him before she can become self-supporting - and all you can offer are after-the-fact suggestions on how to limit her own fertility. You probably didn't mean to play the blame-game, but that's akin to telegraphing iceberg-avoidance measures to the captain of the Titanic after he's already signaled the SOS.

10
Get a toy, a therapist, and hang out with friends. You make time for the kid and not him. Separate sleeping areas. Best of luck, (and luck is made more often than not by *your* effort).
11
My tubal was an outpatient procedure - I had a general anesthetic, but the whole thing was about four hours from walking in the door to walking out. Yeah, it's more serious than a man getting a snip, but it's also not a huge big deal. And that was 25 years ago, it's probably easier now, with lasers.

As for advice, I'd say get out sooner rather than later. Don't depend on him being a partner in getting you started in a new life. If you have people who will help you, don't be proud, take their help. You can always pay them back later.
12
this woman is off her head.

she wants to fuck her husband to keep him nicer DESPITE the way he treats her anyways. FUCKING HIM ON A REGULAR, OR NOT, BASIS IS NOT THE SOLUTION FOR GODS SAKE. are you kiddinng me???!!!!! the problem is WAY bigger than intercourse.

get professional counseling IMMEDIATELY--choosing a misogynist partner to begin with, allowing other men to treat you the same way (self esteem/worth/respect image issues), birth control avoidance and "accidentally" getting preggers, birthing and raising children, FOUR TIMES, in an abusive environment, thinking fucking your husband is going to make your life easier (what distorted kind of logis is this: my husband is miso--should i fuck him (more) to make him non-miso????!!!! are you kidding me??!!!!!

personally i find this the most disturbing>>>aside from the 4 pregnancies with an asshole a husband AND father. its child abuse
"...it was so nice. We didn't deal with any of our issues, but they seemed like they became smaller and we were happier and we worked together to achieve things. He's a much kinder and centered person when he's getting laid! He has this gentleness about him that is so likable when he has that in his life."
13
My heart breaks for this woman. If she had a donation page, I'd contribute. She needs to get the hell out of that abusive marriage. What a horrifying situation.
14
I was thinking like @12. Rewarding abuse with sex? EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
15
Saddly, that IS the survival logic of someone trapped in an abusive relationship. Don't blame the victim. For whatever reason, she deems herself trapped in this marriage for the next two years. I assume financial reasons, which make complete sense, but WHY wait until the child is 2? vs. 1 or 3? As Dan said, build your support network with friends, family, a shelter, etc., get an IUD while you can (because your medical insurance may not last!) in case your husband violates you again, avoid sex with him the best you can, build your business, save-up and LEAVE as soon as possible.
16
Really Dan? Today you throw up this letter.
LW. Where to start. Oh yes. You have a baby and three other young children. You and your husband are under stress. Especially you.
Just take a moment and talk to each other. You say you enjoyed sex and that he would soften. Just you kept getting pregnant? Know that story.
You really can find ways to avoid pregnancy.
Now, you don't have sex and he's drinking and grumpy and forces sex on you. As well as covering his face in fur. You haven't kissed in eight years?
First up, talk to him. Forget the maybe trump vote for the moment. Try to talk when kids asleep, be gentle on each other and listen to each other.
Then get to couples therapy.
17
"Someone needs to fuck this man so that he's nice to be around."

Someone needs to Lorena Bobbitt that man.

This is the saddest letter I have read in a long time. This is the sort of relationship the likes of Rush Limbaugh -- not to mention our dear Commentor, who probably thinks this guy's some sort of hero for not watching porn -- would endorse as a paragon of "family values." I'll donate to this woman's GoFundMe page too. She and her kids would be better off in a shelter for abused woman than with this horrible waste of carbon. Don't wait, leave now! And whatever you do, do NOT allow him any more chances to impregnate you!
18
@15 "He's a much kinder and centered person when he's getting laid! He has this gentleness about him that is so likable when he has that in his life."
Yet he's an asshole most of the time, and downright rapey when he drinks = classic abuser pattern. Alcohol isn't the problem here. Alcohol, much like Trump's campaign, act as deshinibitor (word? please excuse any mistakes, english isn't my first language), it only enables repressed tendencies that were always there to begin with.
19
@18. His behaviour is objectionable, I see that.
I also know the stress in parents when kids are babies and young children.
Whatever happens into the future, these two have children together. They need to see this responsibility they both share. If this man is too far gone to talk with or insist on therapy with, then she needs to do what she can to prepare for her exit.
20
Dan, is it just me or does this read like a FAKE letter? Pretty early in it sounded fake to me, just a thought.
21
@Capricornius, we're all well aware that a tubal ligation is more complicated than a vasectomy and that the IUD is not without complications. But since her husband refuses to get snipped, SHE has to take control over her own sterility. She also needs to stop fucking him since he's an asshole at all other times.
22
Talk to a divorce/custody lawyer. I know you can't afford the money, but just a free initial consultation can shift how you see things.

You're in survival logic as @15 said, and you're surviving. A good divorce lawyer can be a way to tag-team that with another logic that improves your life five years from now.
23
fake
24
Doesn't sound fake to me at all. The guy sounds like a combination of my dad and my ex. What she describes, along with the mental processes at work for her, are very real to me.

What helped me was a friend convincing me to visit a divorce lawyer not to get a divorce, but simply to learn my options. I went for a free consultation and left with a plan for him to be served papers and me to borrow money from my parents for the attorney's retainer. She really needs to check with an attorney before getting too carried away. Some states have some really fucked up laws that would punish her (decrease his payments or reduce her chances of retaining meaningful custody of the kids) for moving out or separating (or not separating) finances as the court desires. Also, if she moves out, he will control the family paperwork (account numbers, birth certificates, etc.) which can completely stop the progress of the divorce if he doesn't cooperate in producing said documents for the court. And the court might not punish him for obstructing the divorce. My ex did it for nearly two years and the judge was simply, 'another continuance!' every time, refusing to assess any penalty for him not bringing documents or doing what was required to finalize the divorce. The only reason the divorce was ever granted (my ex told me straight out that he was going to make the process as long and expensive as possible) was because I was the breadwinner for the family and I cut him off from all finances. Eventually he ran out of money and couldn't borrow any more from his friends, and the only route to getting any was accepting the ridiculously equitable division of assets.

So:
1) Meet with a divorce attorney. Maybe several.
2) Get together all the documentation you need. Build a plan.
3) Assemble your support team - parents, siblings, friends, etc. Let them know what the plan is.
4) Have him served with papers and begin the separation process.
5) Keep yourself safe and sane. Realize it's possible that you will lose your kids, your savings, and your ability to generate your previous level of income through this process. You will gain your freedom and your sanity. It might not seem like it right now, but it's worth it. You're worth it.
25
Billabong @20: Wow, you joined the SL boards just to make the misogynistic assertion that this woman can't possibly be enduring the sort of abuse she reports?

Go volunteer at a shelter for victims of domestic violence. You'll soon learn just how real -- and how sadly common -- this sort of abuse is.
26
Repeat after me:

I chose an abusive asshole for a husband. I chose to not use any one of the myriad forms of birth control available to me, and therefore I chose to get pregnant four times (and counting...) I chose to mask my problems with drugs, and I chose to reward abuse with sex.

Now, I choose to start seeing a counselor ASAP and get my head on straight, so I will stop making these destructive choices. If I choose (for whatever inexplicable reason) to keep fucking this asshole (or any other man), for god's sake, I WILL get an IUD so I DON'T get pregnant a FIFTH time! I choose to get the fuck out as soon as humanly possible. I choose to make my life, and my kids' lives safe and sane again.
27
My first recommendation would be a divorce attorney. If that's not possible, talk to a counselor at a domestic abuse women's shelter. My first advice would be to flee from this situation immediately even if the ducks aren't all in neat little rows. If that's not possible, start documenting in a safe place. Your letter to Dan was a good start, but now start noting exactly what he said, time/date, exactly when he was drunk time/date. Note when he does pay attention to the children, time/date because you want to be able to counter his statement that he does take care of the children. The lack of entries on the paid-attention-to-children page will speak volumes. When planning your escape, pay some attention to finances, but pay more attention to keeping your children safe. Sad to say, this is going to mean in divorce court taking a financial hit in order to get full custody. Note that you do not need a means to support 2 households. You only need one. Where he lives is of no material interest to you. An apartment for you and the kids is all you need. It won't be easy, but it will be possible. I wouldn't want to live in a small space with 4 children not yet in school either, but recall that women throughout the centuries have done just that and thrived. Good luck.
28
Dani @21 - You're well aware of the hazards these methods of birth control present to some women, and I'm sure LW is also well aware of the benefits and risks of birth control options available to her. She has already opted for the only 100% reliable and safe method, abstinence - not a huge sacrifice, given that her husband is both physically and morally repulsive to her. Her choice to make, not yours, and she's already made it. She asked for advice on how she can avoid having sex for the next two years with this guy, not what we all think she should use for birth control when he taps her for their monthly sex act. She's had some welcome time off thanks to her latest pregnancy and recovery time, but that excuse won't keep him at bay another two years.

Totally agree with MtnBeaver @22 about seeing a lawyer to discuss her options and strategies for staying safe until she is able to get free. Some domestic abuse shelters offer pro bono or low-cost legal aid where needed, and the counselors there can also provide support, encouragement, and practical assistance as she develops her escape plan.

Gamebird @24, I don't think LW stands to lose as much as you did in divorce proceedings, given that she is currently dependent on husband's income rather than vice versa, he doesn't care about their kids, and they both sound economically strapped. But I agree that starting to build a personal support team is another positive step she can take toward a better future without the bad husband.

29
Fichu @27, our comments crossed, but I really like everything you had to say. I especially like your idea of documenting the abuse and neglect in order to speed up her escape timetable, with the help of spousal support payments from her soon-to-be ex.

Donny @26, how does your scolding help this poor woman? If she were capable of CHOOSING in all the psychologically healthy ways you urge her to do, she certainly wouldn't CHOOSE her current life. Most (though not all) domestic abuse victims grew up in abusive households, where love and maltreatment are expected to go hand in hand. An old Russian proverb says "If he doesn't beat you, he doesn't love you," and many kids grow up thinking they need to endure the abuse in order to get the love. If your husband gets even meaner without sex, then by all means give him his drunk sex and earn your reward in his post-coital "gentleness" - even though you hate drunk sex so much that you get high in order to get through it!

Professional counseling is an excellent idea to help LW avoid making the same old mistakes in the future, but right now she needs positive support and ideas for staying safe from this guy, not recriminations from anonymous strangers for all her past mistakes.
30
Capricornius @28: Sadly, abstinence only works when both partners participate. This woman's husband is raping her regularly.

I think I know what Donny @26 was trying to get at -- she should choose to stop seeing herself as a victim with no control over the situation, a victim of circumstance -- but yeah, it did come across as part blamey, part empowering. Someone like LW no doubt got into her situation through low self-esteem, which isn't helped by scolding her for her poor choices. But she does indeed have the power to make better choices. I wish her luck.
31
BDF @30, I get your point. But I think that if she wanted an IUD, she'd have one already; what she wants is NO MORE SEX, forced or otherwise. I'm with Dan in recommending separate bedrooms with a lock on the inside of her door, even if it means that the older kids have to double or triple up to give Mom her own safe space at night. Also agree that she should threaten to report the SOB for marital rape, and contact the local authorities if he blows through her boundaries even one more time. He apparently is not so volatile that she feared telling him about her plan to leave in two years, so she should be able to set rules about how the two of them can live estranged under the same roof in the meantime. Unfortunately that won't solve the problem of his beastly attitude. I really like Fichu's suggestion to accelerate the divorce proceedings and start documenting instances of spousal abuse and child neglect, which will get her and the kids into their own place faster (with his court-ordered financial support) until she can grow her business to sustainability.
32
"I don't like condoms, so we just keep having kids instead."

Ugh, you both need to get sterilized, and you both need to divorce each other. You both make my skin crawl.

You already know this, so stop pretending to use Trump as a "last straw," and stop asking some advice columnist for permission to do what you know you have to.

Put on your big girl pants and do what you know you have to. Get yourself a tubal ligation if he won't get a vasectomy. He gets to control his own body too, just like you do. Or don't, but for the love of god, stop pumping out kids.

Fuck.
33
I had problems with both hormonal birth control and the IUD.

Big problems. The cervical cap worked for me (basically a smaller, tighter diaphragm and easier to insert.)

And then there's abortion, (which is really just another form of birth control.)

But I'm not recommending you have sex with that abusive creep, if you can avoid it.

Good luck, honey.

34
Capricornius@27, BiDan@30, yes, I know it sounded a bit blamey, and I think I'm being influenced by my 18-year old daughter & a handful of other women I have met along the line who see their situation as the fault of the world and seriously need to realize that they had a big part in creating their own situation (and that they are the one(s) who can make it better.)
35
Donny @34, I get where you were coming from, and I'm glad you can do the same for me. Hopefully you and her mother have raised your daughter to be a strong, confident young woman who can love and respect her own needs in any relationship. Just having a loving, accepting father in your life - that is a huge advantage that many teenage girls do not get to enjoy. I'd be willing to bet that our LW had a problematic relationship with Dad before she let herself get trapped with four kids in an abusive, loveless marriage.

Having said that, it's well known that 18-year-olds regardless of gender can be quite whiny and reluctant to take responsibility for cleaning up their own messes. And it's definitely a Dad's duty and privilege to remind them that in fact, they need to adjust to life's realities rather than waiting impatiently for real life to adjust to their expectations. So I applaud you for wanting to motivate your daughter and other young women to take positive action on their own behalf.
36
@9/Capricornius: "Vasectom[ies] [are] typically a 20-minute outpatient procedure. But the medical realities are almost beside the point." One "medical reality" that you don't point out is that upwards of 5 percent of men report chronic testicular pain.
37
I agree that the LW should seek counseling and consult a divorce/family attorney, sooner rather than later. She should not wait until her infant is 2 y/o to start divorce proceedings; divorces take time. As much as I want to give her kudos for starting and trying to grow a business, that same business will become a marital asset to be divided per which ever state's divorce laws dictate. That fledgling business might not survive the divorce now or later. The divorce process for this couple is likely as not to be convoluted and lengthy.

Maybe twenty years ago I read a report that studies show that children of unhappily married parents fare basically the same as those of divorced parents. However, the parents fare better when divorced. As she remains in this horrible marriage, her children are picking up on all the cues of unhappiness and misogyny and learning them as the norm. They are learning to behave like their mom and dad does. Additionally, as this couple stays together, it likely that their treatment of each other will become even more toxic and less respectful and supportive of each other's needs as time goes on. The children need to NOT be in a toxic home environment.

As difficult as it might be, the LW must regain her self respect and it ain't gonna happen with the status quo. All that energy spent trying to manipulate the POS husband could be spent organizing her and her children's lives to be lived without him in the home. Her husband has no incentive to change. So many of those with ETOH or other addictions suffer from loss of or intermittent yet decreased libido. Using sex as a tool to control him and better her existence will yield fewer desired results over time. It's time for her to put her big girl pants on and take control by removing that which is making her lie down for a man for whom she has no positive sexual, intellectual, moral, or emotional feelings. This is in an abusive marriage. Right now she is a participant in her own abuse. It needs to end.
38
Sublime @36, that statistic compares to roughly 67% of women who experience chronic painful cramping and heavy menstrual bleeding with the copper (non-hormonal) IUD. For approximately 15% of these women, the pain and bleeding is sufficiently severe that they have the device removed within one year of insertion. And did I mention that both the insertion and removal are painful procedures performed without anesthesia, and that insertion causes uterine perforation for 1 in 1000 women, with approximately the same risk of suffering a high-risk ectopic pregnancy? (Although, in its favor, the copper IUD does have an extremely low risk of failure - 0.8 percent according to the latest numbers I have seen. There are stories in the medical literature about babies being born with the IUD clutched in their tiny little hands, but these are extremely rare events.)
39
It's unclear why LW won't use condoms or birth control herself but doesn't understand why her husband thinks getting a surgical procedure is inconvenient. If you're already planning for divorce (seems bizarre) why would he feel any obligation to do anything for your comfort?

Generally, it seems like you are both dicks. But whatever, you only have as much power as you are willing to exercise, so why wait the 2 years? Move out. Don't expect anyone else to get your business "ready" for you, especially when you're planning to take that persons kids. Have a sister/parent/cousin/close friend help you in the business instead.
40
SJN @37, well-said. I think you are the first in this thread to focus on the needs of those poor children, who are learning negative lessons about male behavior and the rules of marriage that they are likely to take with them into adulthood. Agreed - it needs to end!
41
Fair enough guys. This guy is a douche.
They have four children together. There is no quick exit out of this situation without money. Then what? Four kids on her own somewhere and he probably doing more fuck all than he already is doing. And for those of you who haven't had four young kids one of whom is a baby, you have no idea of the workload.
This is the evolved pattern of two adults and now four children over twelve years. It's complex. And her words are ambivalent, to me.
Donny is right. This woman has choice here, very limited now the children around, so she's got to be real smart with the little bit of room she has.
Good idea up thread. The LW needs to get to a therapist asap, find some perspective and one who will help her plan her exit with care.
She has choice, here and now. Next time this man tries it on with forcing sex on her she needs to stand up to him. Tell him no, and say she'll be calling the police if he touches her like that again.
When he belittles her, she turns to him standing up straight, and tells him to stop talking to you like that.
Go find a women's group, we used to have assertiveness training workshops, get their help in developing the skills to stand up to this oaf.
She also has to remember he is a human being. And a male.


And next time he
42
Capricornius/@38: It's rather head shaking that your comment seeks to turning this into a pain competition. Your comment @9 can fairly be read to suggest that their are no complications from a vasectomy, which there are, while my comment in no way touched upon other forms of birth control or their merits. Your need to lecture me on a separate, unrelated point in an effort to win some one-side argument, while wholly ignoring a valid issue, chronic pain that can last decades, is bizarre.
43
My husband just owned up to me today that he voted for Trump because he hates Clinton. He also thinks a few of the Trump policy ideas will be beneficial. Oh, and no matter who he has surrounded himself with or what he has said, "Trump is really a social liberal." And the democrats are causing this panic by fear mongering.

I said, people of latino and muslim heritage are being attacked today. Your daughter is very dark, olive complexion. Does it really have to happen to you? Does someone have to slash your tires and burn a cross in your yard?

Apparently, yes.

I told him I hoped Trump took his f*king ammosexual guns away.

We aren't talking right now. Not for a long time.
44
Maybe it really is 1970 again.Thanks for reminding us that options suck for women and yes women (and girls) do tolerate rape, repeatedly, just to keep from exposing themselves and their children to financial and/or social ruin. Dang.
45
Sublime @42, you're right, I went off the rails there - and I apologize. Without meaning to, you triggered one of my pet peeves whenever the subject of vasectomy comes up. Yes a very small percentage of men do suffer from chronic pain following a vasectomy, and it's wrong to dismiss their suffering just because there are very few of them. But if a couple is deciding between a vasectomy vs. a tubal ligation or an IUD, the risks are so much more ominous and the probability of chronic pain is so much higher for the female sexual partner - yet more often than not, both partners decide on the IUD or the female sterilization. It defies logic, and I think it has to do with male anxieties about their balls. It's almost like women are expected to assume any pain and side effects that may be associated with contraception, if there is even the slightest chance of damage or pain for the man. For my spouse and myself, vasectomy has been enormously liberating with no downsides whatsoever. But I do realize that we're in the lucky majority.
46
@43 Darhorserising, DTMFA.
47
Oh dark horse. No. sending you hugs.
48
Capricornius @36 is posting alarming data that seems wrong-- I hope that readers will do their own research. ("67% of women ... experience chronic painful cramping" with an IUD, he says, amid other fear-mongering.) / I tried to Google his stats, and I found **dismissals** (https://drjengunter.wordpress.com/2016/0… ) If you're curious about IUDs, talk to Planned Parenthood, talk to your own OB/GYN-- please.
49
Capricornius @36 is posting alarming data that seems wrong-- I hope that readers will do their own research. ("67% of women ... experience chronic painful cramping" with an IUD, he says, amid other fear-mongering.) / I tried to Google his stats, and I found DISMISSALS (https://drjengunter.wordpress.com/2016/0… ) / If you're curious about IUDs, talk to Planned Parenthood, talk to your own OB/GYN-- please.
50
@43 oh, shit. I don't know how he could fix that from where he's starting. No advice from me, just, ugh.

I hate that Trump makes people worse people. I hate that Trump reveals that people were worse than I realized.
51
Editor @48 @49 - Cool, a medical blog - with opinions provided by a real OB-GYN, who just wants women to know the truth! I bet she has no financial ties whatsoever to any IUD manufacturers. She's hosting this website as a public service, because she sees so much alarming data about IUDs out there. God bless her!

Alternatively, here's a peer-reviewed secondary analysis from the National Institutes of Health, including all of the source references for the data. Unfortunately you will need a paid subscription to access the original documents and the final edited version of this report online, but anyone who is seriously interested can access the additional material for free at a public library. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/article…

There are many other corroborating peer-reviewed studies online, but I'll let anyone who is considering an IUD do their own research. An IUD may indeed be the ideal birth control choice for some women, but they deserve to make that choice with a full awareness of the common side effects and the rare but serious health risks, as well as the benefits.

Also, I am not a "he."
52
I sure hope the LW can swing "just not fucking this dude, because ugh" contraception, and I don't think anybody scolding her for not getting an IUD is helpful in the least.

But Capricornius, where in that paper are you referencing for "roughly 67% of women who experience chronic painful cramping and heavy menstrual bleeding"?

Where I see that number is "In one study, 67% of women ... complained about menstrual side effects within the first year of use", without talking about chronic painful cramping. What they say about pain is 38% have "more menstrual pain" and 9% have "serious pain" during the first 9-week period. They estimate that both decrease over time, for what that's worth.

I'm not shilling for copper IUDs -- 25% of these women ending up having them removed is the bottom line, and pretty bad -- but it looks like you might have pasted two different things together.
53
I wish people would quit referring to Clinton winning the popular vote like its some kind of high school popularity contest.

Clinton won the election. She's not going to be president because of a quirk in our legal system. But she did win the election folks.
54
Don't roughly 90% of women experience "chronic painful cramping" just from having periods?

DarkHorse, I'm sorry -- you married not one but two assholes. DTMFA.
55
Fear. This letter comes down to fear. Trump as the president-elect is some scary shit. We’re all worried. But Dan, of the freedoms Trump could restrict as President, the ability to reason, to think isn’t one of them. The only way he can take away our ability to reason is if you let him. And ya did just that sir. Please re-read the letter from Not Giving a Fuck, the women who THINKS her husband voted Trump, because that silly cunt played on your fear hook line and sinker.

If that was her letter verbatim, not summarized in the interests of brevity or clarity, where did she explicitly state she was working, as in gainfully employed or owning her own business, AND being a mother to their four children? “We need to get my business to a place where we can afford two households. That’s what I’m working on.” That isn’t saying “I own my own business concurrent with raising four kids.” Business is a freaking colloquialism, 10 to 1 in this case it means “financial affairs”, not an actual occupation. Because if his is the sole income for the family, of course he places more value on his paycheck than her mothering, his paycheck supports four fucking kids and a silly cunt crying “Patriarchy!”.

And let’s assume I’m reading WAY too much into that the wording; Dude she’s still someone who almost exclusively initiates sex so “this man is nice to be around”, won’t use condoms, and blames multiple pregnancies on HIS selfishness. Then assures you she’s not a stoner. What the flaming fuck Dan?

She states that when drunk he “literally tries to force himself on me” then elaborates on how she finds him repulsive when he’s drunk and describes repulsive as “like not connected at all.” Then goes on to bitch about his beard? If a beau literally tried to force himself on you, more than once, would you describe your feelings toward him as “like not connected at all”?

I found myself wondering if you had read the same letter I had. I was seeing red at the “keep getting pregnant cause he’s selfish” part. Kept thinking “there’s no way Dan’s gonna fall for this, no way.” And then you shocked the hell out of me by voluntarily giving up your freedom to think, rationally, logically, and all it took was mentioning a couple of your hot button issues, namely marital rape, sexless marriages, DTMFA situations, and Voting Trump.
56
MtnBeaver @52 and BDF @54, I just grabbed the first valid peer-reviewed study I found online. There are many more out there, and you can do your own independent research if you want - I didn't have either the time or the inclination to do more than point people in the right direction. But I've done this research in the past for myself and those I care about, and I think you'll find that 65% is the generally accepted estimate of IUD users who will experience increased heavy bleeding, severe pain, or both. BDF I haven't seen any studies that differentiated between those who had existing pre-menstrual cramps and those who did not, so that 65% number indicates all women who reported new pain, increased pain, or more prolonged pain, along with new, increased, or more prolonged heavy bleeding, than they had prior to insertion.

Also, please note that the reported data relate solely to the copper (non-hormonal) IUD, since LW indicated that she was not a candidate for hormonal contraception. I have not had any personal reasons to review the data on the newer hormonal IUDs. Perhaps the numbers have improved. For the sake of women relying on this form of contraception, I hope so.

Anecdotally, I know a woman who used to think that menstrual cramps were mostly psychosomatic, because she had never experienced any PMS symptoms herself. She believed that women who expected to get bloated and crampy were very likely to get bloated and crampy, and a few were seriously invested in their monthly PMS drama. Getting an IUD gave her new insight and sympathy for those who experience severe PMS, and after struggling with it for two years (she loved the freedom but hated the disabling pain, which on occasion forced her to take sick days), she had it removed.
57
Dear Letter Writer,

You have made the first step. Congratulations. There are supportive communities to help you:

Since Dan only name dropped planned parenthood, here is the number for a national domestic abuse hotline. They will help you with your plan. 1-800-799-7233

Feminismisforeverybody and any book by bell hooks are good reads.

Some assertiveness tools to think about:
https://www.mindtools.com/pages/article/…

Not sure where you live, but there are likely support groups for DV survivors, groups for women to grow a small biz, groups for partners of alcoholics, groups that just foster healthy relationships.

58
Cap @56: Well at least your friend got some empathy ability out of the experience. I wonder what it would take for our friend asshole @55 to get the same.
59
I have a hormonal iud. It did give me some cramping but I suffered some powerfully painful cramping in the past so....

My husband in general in not an asshole but he made an asshole move. I think - as demonstrated by the lady who thought women faked bad cramps - suffers from a tremendous blind spot. When I venemously told him I hoped Trump took his second amendment rights away, he puffed that was a mean thing to say. I said, why, you just took mine away.... twenty years .. the entire Obama legacy ... wiped away by churlish people who are lashing out. And for a big chunk, they don't care. They aren't minorities or lgbtq or confortably married (for now).
As to how he makes it up? I have no clue. Come groveling on his knees when they sweep away Obamacare?

You know, I won't say I haven't had travails, but I have led a charmed life in some respects. Decent brains, good college, job that rode out the recession. Nice car, nice healthy kids, nice house. Very good retirement and great health insurance. But I am not stupid. Lightening has burnt a few houses in my life. It can burn mine too. Yet... so many others can't see that their daughters might get pregnant, their jobs destroyed... how can you not see the precipice at your feet? Trump's father might have massive connections in New York City to bail trump out. Do you?
60
@53: Trump didn't win the election because of a "quirk in our legal system." He is the President-Elect because of an archaic Electoral College system that was put in place to placate the slave states. Arguments that it must stay in place because of "states' rights" and other excuses are specious, at best. It is way past time to eliminate the Electoral College. Too bad we aren't likely to see that happen in our lifetime. http://www.nytimes.com/2016/11/11/us/pol…
61
Apparently Clinton won by more votes than any other president except Obama. there is a petition going round for the electoral college asking them to give Clinton the job,
on change.org
62
Dark horse, if it were me I'd be packing my bags. Your husband just contributed to his children's future being very dark and bleak and scary.
63
Dan, your long rant, denigrating the LWs hubby because you think he just may be a jerk, is really a poor reflection on your ability to separate your hurt feelings and concerns about the recent election, and the needs of the person who wrote to you about her marriage. I think you might be better off sticking with sex advice, and not so much with the relationship advice, right now.

To the LW, listen to @26. You are miserable and you need to take responsibility for some of the things you've done to get here, and start thinking about how to fix them. Having a 2 year plan, that depends on cooperation and mutual respect, doesn't sound very realistic.
64
@63: Somehow you missed the husband's rapist behavior. He's more than a "jerk". The wife's desire for consent is not respected.
65
Seriously, if you think Dan is being "denigrating" to

"I have two boundaries about sex: not when I'm sleeping, and not when he's drunk. In all these 12 years together, I'm pretty sure he has only initiated when he was drunk or I was asleep. The longer we go without sex, the more he drinks, and the meaner he gets about it and literally tries to force himself on me. I feel so fucking violated. "

you can go fuck yourself.
66
@61 Actually not true.

Obama got 10 then 5 million more votes than her in 08 and 12. Bush got 2 million more than her in 04. In 00, Bush won with 10 million fewer than her.

But even if that claim were true (it's not), it's nothing to brag about. Population has continued to grow, so bragging that you got more votes than a winner almost a decade ago is really no great shakes.

And there are all sorts of things wrote with the US electoral system, but proportionate representation is not one of them. The country is huge and diverse. A simple majority would put all the power in the hands of a small number of major urban areas.
67
wrong, not wrote (@66)
68
This is such a clusterfuck that I can't even add anything.

Instead, I'll say that I'm always amazed how many people are in marriages with people with whom they have very different political and social opinions. My only way to understand this is that it just doesn't bother them too much because they don't actually care about these things very much. Everyone weighs different issues differently. Likewise, I couldn't live with a picky eater, ha ha. A picky-eating Trump supporter who spends a lot of money on clothes- that would be my worst partner scenario. I mean, aside from drunken rapists with unplanned children, egads.
69
A man who invade your boundaries having sex with you while you are sleep it is a rapist he does not deserve any respect. If I was you I would demand that he stop drinking or I would stop all wife participation in his empowerment since he seem to be not interested in your well being.

I really like Emalie suggestions for you to join support groups and reading bell hooks one of my favorite scholars. The book "Feminism it is for Everybody" Has a very insightful short essay on masculine identity which all English reading men over the age of 13 should read. In fact I think most guys would benefit from taking Women's Studies or Queer Theory courses to update themselves with new ways of seeing being and doing in the age of the Goddess.
70
@66. That's not the point of view I'm reading.
I'm reading many people saying it's archaic and was put in place to keep the slave owners happy.
This is the second time a Democrat has been denied the Presidency in sixteen years when the majority of voters chose them.
How is that Democracy?

71
@70 You are misunderstanding the situation with Gore v Bush. Gore won the popular vote, and just slightly. Then there was a dispute about who won Florida. It was a tie for a long time, and several weeks of recounts happened- some gave it to Bush and some gave it to Gore. In the end, the Supreme Court stepped in and called the state for Bush, therefore Bush was given that state's electoral votes. However, the recounts continued, and most determined that Gore in fact won that state and should have received those electoral votes. So this situation was wholly different from the one this week. Gore did not win the popular and lose the electoral- he won them both. The election was called by the Supreme Court which intervened- and yes, this was not in the least democratic. Gore chose not to fight the results, though most activists at the time would gladly have continued the fight.

As for the other two times, they were a long time ago and things were different. They were both in the 1800s, and one of them was a complicated situation like Gore- not a straight forward loss of electoral but winning of popular. That has actually only happened once before this, with Harrison.

In this case, as much as I hate Trump, Clinton has in fact lost the electoral college fair and square. And yes it is democratic- it's simply representative democracy. Yes part of the reasoning behind the electoral college is archaic. But it's purpose today is to proportionately represent states so that certain specific but densely populated regions are not catered to at the exclusion of everyone else in the country. It's a way to protect minority and diverse interests. This is similar to how different states have different numbers of representatives according to population. Otherwise, all a politician would have to do is respond to CA, TX and NY and ignore the rest of the country since nearly half the voting population lives in those states.

I think it's a good thing to talk about election reform. There are lots of things wrong with the way we hold election- suppression, difficulty in registration, different options for voting in different states, unregulated ballots, not having a standard voting form (some are pen/paper, some are computers, etc), etc- and there is even more reform necessary in campaigning, especially in finance, media coverage and the length of the campaign season. I also think it's worth researching/discussing if the electoral college should NOT be winner take all in each state but rather split its state votes proportionately the way Maine does for example.

Finally, if the American public DOES in fact want to reform the electoral college, they need to organize in this endeavor some time other than when their personal choice of candidates just happens to lose. If Trump had lost the electoral but won the popular vote, we'd see the same movement on the other side, and the Democrats would be opposing it. This is sour grapes. If you want to change this process, then organize to do it. But you can't retroactively apply those changes to un-elect Trump. THAT is undemocratic.

I fully support resisting Trump's policies and protesting against his bigotry. I think organization against him is a necessary thing to do right now. But challenging the fact that he won fair and square by the rules that we have all agreed upon is going to do good for no one. He won. It sucks, but it happened.
72
@71. I'm not up on what the actual
Vote difference was in 2000.
This time, Hillary has won the majority of votes big time. Many people and news sources are calling out for the Electoral College to be Scrapped. You have two houses of govt that are representational, as I understand it.
The President should be elected by majority rule. Otherwise why bother to have a Republic with a President.
Sorry. You don't convince me. I always thought America was a democracy. It isn't.
73
Dear NGAF,

I'm glad you have a platform to vent your thoughts that must be eating away at you everyday. Let them have room to breathe, to have a voice. Just a thought: could it be that you actually do GAF or else you wouldn't be stuck in a cycle that has resulted in patterns who promised yourself you'd never be in? I want to congratulate you being closer to your gray area...honestly seeing your shitty reality and wanting it to be different but still questioning yourself and if leaving him is what you really should do. It's a tough place to be. Why leave him? He's giving you attention, he loves you because he continues to stay in the relationship even when your mad at him, he's the father of your children. You do GAF about being seen, being connected, having a family and he's giving all those, even if it is in a toxic way. And if you want to say that your fantasy about NGAF helps you through this, then by all means. We all need our defenses in order to survive, right?

For real though, you are not done with "all this misgony". I'm sure you've told yourself that before throughout the 12 years together, and yet you stayed. So with genuine compassion and curiosity, I wonder what is going on for you on the inside- filled with fear that you would rather put yourself through this relationship rather than be alone? Who else in your life treated you like this and so you feel like you deserve less than? Who violated your boundaries that resulted in giving up what you believe is right for you? So much so that as an adult, the only two boundaries you chose around sex have never been respected. No one needs to "fuck your man so he is nice" to you. That is an indication of how low your expectations have become because you have lost touch with yourself. Mourn the loss of self, or your dignity and begin to heal.

Your husband is a misogynist because you've given him permission to treat you with disrespect and abuse. I'm not saying to blame yourself; I'm saying to pay attention and be curious about where your pain is coming from. Really understand them. It takes courage to leave a relationship, but it takes even more courage to look honestly at ourselves and to let go of fantasies that things will change in the relationship. Until these questions are answered, you will continue to pretend that you don't GAF. And you'll continue to come across more misogynistic men and wonder why you can't find a descent one. One that treats you with love you've only dreamed of.

Stop blaming your husband. He is showing you how he expresses love. It's our job to decide if that's the kind of love we want to receive.
74
@73: "Why leave him?"

Because he's a serial rapist.

"... He is showing you how he expresses love"

Uhhhhh.
75
Something else it sounds like LW has to do: Evaluate that business, take a good hard look at it and see if it's really going to pull in enough 2 years from now for her to actually leave. If it isn't, then she needs to be looking for a job instead of looking for customers. In particular, if the business you have is a multi-level marketing thing, where she gets some money based on people she recruits, that's not a business, that's a scam, and she needs to quit that right now. It sounds like money is what's keeping her tied to this vile man, and money is what she'll need to free herself and her kids.

If she doesn't, I would not be surprised if 2 years waiting for that ship to come becomes 3, 3 years becomes 4, and whoops there's another baby, so another 2 years, and then if she just sticks it out a few more years her eldest will be out of the house, and then if she waits a few more years her youngest will be out of the house too, and then he took care of her financially all these years .... There's always an excuse to wait.
76
@66 Awarding the office of president to the person who gets the most votes (like we do in basically every other election in the country), would not "put all the power in the hands of a small number of major urban areas." It would put all the power in the hands of the majority of people who voted in the election, as it should. Because most people live in urban and suburban areas, those areas would be most important. But the people living in those areas would not have any more representation than anyone else.
77
Give him a copy of this letter.
78
@76 Because the electoral college is proportionate to the population of states (more electors in California than Idaho for example) this is already the case. The point is that a candidate (in theory) must campaign in all regions rather than focusing on one. You must receive electoral votes from all over the country.

I think the system is imperfect and I'm more than willing to support massive election reform. I'm also happy to hear arguments either against the electoral college or that reform it. One thing that I suggest is dividing up the electoral votes within a state (the way they do in Maine) rather than winner-take-all.

What bothers me is that people are simply grabbing a quick fix- pure simple majority- without considering wider issues (including our insane campaign system and voting system). Also saying that this is done all over the world is not really true. In the first place, most countries in the world are neither so massive nor so diverse. I don't really care what they do in Iceland for example. But if we do look at other massive diverse democracies, they don't all have a simple majority. India, for example is a parliamentary system and requires coalitions under some circumstances. Which is another idea that Americans should perhaps consider. I don't know the details of the Canadian system (I think some commenters here are Canadian) but I do know that it's the government which wins (not an individual) and then the head of that government is appointed.

So I think what is happening right now is a knee-jerk response. While I'm all for reform, I think we need to have a long and nuanced discussion of what needs to be done.

BTW I live in a county that is GOP because of gerrymandering. The district is drawn in a ridiculous way so that the majority of voters in my district live in an area that is radically different (geographically, ethnically, economically) from the one where I live. And yes, our interests are completely ignored because there is no representation here- a politician simply needs a simple majority to win which means we are irrelevant.

Let's not think in dichotomies. There are all sorts of options available under the sun. We can't do a damn thing about the fact that Trump won under current rules. So we should put our energies into fighting his policies WHILE also discussing election reform rather than just going for a knee-jerk reaction that will create its own set of problems.

People are talking about the urban-rural split, but it cuts both ways you know. In many ways, it's the electoral college that is protecting the urban voice as those states have more electors. Look at a red-blue map. If you go for a simple majority across the nation, I'm not sure the blue could ever win again. There aren't really red and blue states you know. There are populated blue cities in red states.

79
The arguments against the popular vote, that the college would protect us from a populist celebrity fraud like Trump have already been proven false. I haven't yet heard anything other than lame appeals to ritual and tradition and "the founders" without any thought to them.

I don't expect to hear anything beyond that either.
81
If I meet a man and his values are not coherent with my values there is not way I would want anything romantic with him. I need to feel meaningfully connected with the one I am going to empower/care for and share. As Socrates said Knowing thyself it is the finest knowledge one can have. On the other hand so many parents do a great job at denying kids their inner self and their emotions that we seem to be destined to be surrounded by unhappy people who have no idea what their needs are that is sad.
82
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2016/10/6/…

PLEASE READ THIS ARTICLE ABOUT TRUMP'S TRAFFICKING OF UNDERAGE MODELS AND SHARE WIDELY!
83
Share this too! http://www.sloveniatimes.com/slovenia-lo…

Melania reminds me a little of Asma Assad of Syria, whose dictator husband is hellbent on destroying the ethnic group of his own wife and children. She knows four languages to tell Trump to FUCK OFF in, and I'm sure he holds something over her head to keep her from doing so.
84
@81: And who hasn't known a person who stayed with an abusive jerk "for the kids"?
85
@55

"Because if his is the sole income for the family, of course he places more value on his paycheck than her mothering, his paycheck supports four fucking kids and a silly cunt crying “Patriarchy!”. "

Seriously??? Sorry, MAN, but that is not HIS paycheck. That paycheck is as much hers as it is his, if not more so, because I'm pretty sure she works harder and makes A TON MORE money than he does. The fact that the money SHE makes is a saved expense instead of an actual income is immaterial. What matters is how it adds up to the couple's finances. If you insist on considering that paycheck his, then all four children and the house are 100% hers, as she is the only one who works on them. SILLY, right? Yeah, that's what I thought.