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Mar 6, 2017 1:44 PM
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Funny Dan. And yes, ask her straight LW. She's hedging, and you need to protect yourself.
Wanting to have sex with someone who has weird ticks - that would certainly be a cause for great anxiety!
Otherwise, WAIT, I'm really having trouble understanding your hesitation. You say you're reluctant to move too fast too soon, lest you scare off the lesbian-virgin GF. But if GF can be that easily scared off by the physical pleasures you want and need in this relationship, she's probably not the woman you're looking for - and as you point out yourself, it's better to find that out BEFORE you get so emotionally involved that the breakup will be much more painful.
OTOH, the fact that she answered your Tinder post, and has hung around this long, means that she may be more ready than you think to explore the world of womansex. The easy rapport that you have built with her, over the past four dates, should help her to relax and trust you during your first sexual encounter together. Time to pull the trigger, WAIT! Good luck! (and please do write back and let us know how it goes.)
The fear the writer voiced wasn't rejection but coming to care too much too onesidedly. I think the answer is to offer more by way of a come-on. This can, and should predominantly, be verbal. But perhaps the way to go is a tighter hug or a deeper kiss and an invitation, or a question in the form of an invitation. It would be painful to be turned down, but it also sounds as if it would be a more needling and longrunning pain not to know.
It'll make America great again.
*For those not familiar with the Kinsey scale, 4 means bisexual leaning towards lesbian.
@ 7, 8 touched about it as well.
LW- No doubt “talking about it” can be awkward, yet actions without much talking can be awkward as well. And talking has a potential for a mutual intimate growth.
Think of a situation where both of you feel comfortable sharing stuff in a non committed situation nor location.
Some time ago when I was your age or slightly younger H took me to a public dining place and brought up the possibility. It felt very reassuring.
@ 6 has some good openers.
Incidentally, the most dates for me without sex was 3. But most times, it's dates 1 or 2. Initiators varied.
It seems that Dan is now a proponent of the "ask for verbal consent before doing anything physical or it's sexual assault"-school of thought? If that is indeed the new normal then I'm glad to be "retired from romance", to steal a phrase from mr. Venn.
The various "start making a move" scenarios described by various commenters above (@11, @13) sound much more natural to me. (Start making a move, not lunge; non-verbally asking for consent, so to speak.)
From my reading of the letter, the woman hasn't shown any signs of wanting to get physically intimate. No seductive looks, no brushing hands, etc. otherwise it would be moving along. One chaste kiss.
If the LW does make a move, she should set the tone right. Take her to a lesbian bar for a couple of drinks, have a smoke together back at home.
I pretty much lived that movie with my ex. Sigh. We could only have sex if she were drunk, or if a guy was there. Sigh. I was young...
(Teenager) Hot make out sessions followed by seemingly endless conversations about love and birth control.
(20s) Hot or not so hot make out sessions followed by brief conversation about birth control and assumption that we're doing this.
(Late 20s) Kiss at the door followed by my asking him up to my apartment.
(30s) A few dates, a brief discussion about exes, some not so sexy sex talk, and a few words of intent.
I hadn't thought of it before, but ever since the early years, I've made the first move after I was pretty sure I wouldn't be turned down. The move came in the form of saying something along the lines of inviting him to adjourn to the bedroom. A statement along the lines of how awkward it is the first time seems to have been welcome.
Talking about sex, with someone you feel sexy towards, is sexy. If talking about it is a boner killer, actually doing it won't be that great either, I'd say.
The easily-rebuffed "make a move" that several of the previous posters recommend is kinda like the teenage boy faking a stretch that ends up with his arm around the girl - more tiresome than anything else, frankly.
You think a dude would have the patience to wait four dates while his girlfriend investigated a lesbian (who, news flash, doesn't want sex with men)?
You think a woman with nonexistent ethics would have that sort of patience?
No. Read @20. That's what's really going on.
Fichu @19: "I've made the first move after I was pretty sure I wouldn't be turned down."
And that's the origin of lesbian sheep syndrome. One is "pretty sure one won't be turned down" far less often when it's a woman one is hoping to seduce. Hence, both are less than sure, and neither makes the first (physical or verbal) move.
I think confidence is one of the biggest turn-ons of all. I would never get all wishy-washy and ask permission just for a kiss. You gotta read the situation. Is this a romantic setting where events have been leading up to a smooch, or are you at the dog kennel getting Fluffy fixed? Speaking from experience, almost all women want you to take the lead. Some want to share the lead, but hardly any want you to ask permission. It just makes you look like a weenie.
Several dates in and so little encouragement from this woman, using words first, I still feel,
is her best option.
Based on my experience, I agree with @24/DonnyKlicious, confidence is an aphrodisiac and women are not interested in giving permission to be kissed. In this case, that means that WAIT needs to take the initiative, and move things along sexually throughout their first sexual encounter. All the more so, since WAIT's intended has never been sexually involved with another woman.
If WAIT does invite her friend over to her apartment, don't suggest dinner or watching a movie. Open a bottle of wine, sit on your couch together, share a drink, and then kisser her.
Nothing has to be talked out.
Just check where this woman is really coming from. Maybe she feels no sexual attraction, but likes to hang out with the LW.
RE @35: Point. I'll assume it's Dan's expertise in same-sex dating that was being sought here.
I hang in some kinky circles, in which talking about consent and what is and isn't on the table is considered sexy. Bringing it up and talking about it *is* being confident--it's knowing that you might be shot down but still taking the chance. You can do this in a shy, awkward kinda way, or you can do it in a hot, sexy way, but it can be done.
I’m not sure Donny’s assertion differed much from this line if any at all.
Ricardo @40: Thanks!
To me at a certain level we all have to respond to LWs, to people with problems, as individuals. A big part of this is presumably attending closely to the specifics of what anyone says or implies, and not pressing them into received opinions we may have about their type of person (e.g. straight men, retirees, teens, the bicurious).
Wait, what? Surely it's the straight men who are offering their advice on what women want who are implying that male heterosexuality has things in common with lesbianism? (Which is obviously true; "attraction to women" being the main commonality. "How women like to be pursued" is not necessarily identical for all genders. Or all women.)
And yes, obviously WAIT wrote to Dan both because they're both gay and because he's an internationally recognised sex advice columnist. Unlike any of the commenters here, including my humble self. We don't all have to respond to LWs, but we do it anyway ;)
And while practicalities may vary and not always applicable in this particular situation, that insight in itself is very valuable.
Happy Women's Day to all of us!
And yes, what people find sexy is a product of culture. Is that new or surprising?
I agree that it's iniquitous for men to decide 'what women want'. Very personally, I think we could do very well without most of the repertoires of ideas associated with the standard types at all--ideas about men, women, sexualities, races, ages, degrees of ability, nationalities, states of health....
Consent is super sexy when it's done right. My HUSBAND will still ask if he can fuck me when we're making out, or at the very least say something else that lets me know that's where he wants it to go so that I can decide whether that's going to be a thing or not. And it's still sexy.
PS I asked Dan's advice because he is pretty adept at giving advice in relationships period, whether straight or gay. He has heard so many different issues that I trust him to give me a non-biased straight answer and that's what I got.