Comments

1
Nothing happened! Just a little ill-advised, quickly-terminated jacking off!

Love ya, Dan, you be you.
2
Kind of a long letter. I thought the writing was excellent, and I applaud the LW for keeping my attention to the end.
3
I'm confused on a couple of points that seem like they would be important for everyone's decisions, not just LW's:

1) LW's partner says B is "like a brother" after that threesome: was the contact between B and LW's partner during the threesome only of a kind that could plausibly count as non-sexual?

2) When in this timeline did B get their current partner?

4
I'm confused on the point in the timeline that B became like an older brother to the partner. It would seem that he wasn't like a brother before the hot sex or the hot sex couldn't have happened. So he became brotherly afterwards?
5
@2 I suspect that this letter kept a lot of people's attention because it was kinda hot, even for at least one guy with no interest in MFM threesomes. All right, I considered it once, but I didn't do it and don't think I would now.

I'm surprised and almost disappointed that Dan was too mature to ask about pictures of hot Mr. B.
6
B&I, my first suggest is to make sure that you do not put yourself into a situation in which you will be tempted to play with B behind your bf's back. If a car ride home can end with him jerking off in front of you, then you shouldn't be alone with B at this time.

My second suggestion is to work on those rules of your open relationship without making it about B in any way. Only if the rules you and your bf lay out put playing with B in bounds should you seek to get a more explicit ok from your bf. Even then, I might wait a period of time so as not to appear to have been angling for sex with your bf's best friend when discussing the rules of your open relationship.
7
The issue for the LW is only with this one guy, B. Otherwise she has a loving and functional relationship. Her partner has sex with men, apparently, and isn't ashamed; they both have sex with other people and can make their liaison work.

I think the answer is to lance the boil and specifically discuss the issue of B with her partner. What has happened behind the boyfriend's back isn't that much of an advance on, isn't _that_ much more intensely and impermissibly sexual, than B's exhibitionism and the two of them touching and kissing him. If B. would strip for them, it won't be inconceivable to the boyfriend that he would also confide his BDSM fantasies and desires to his partner. The boyfriend's feelings about B. are complex, and he has resistance to visiting them rationally and in a spirit of lucidity or level-headedness. Most likely he's attracted to someone he looks up to, cares for non-sexually; who's helped him a lot in the past; and who he understands is flawed and to some degree untrustworthy. Not all of this has to do with the girlfriend. There is a good chance she can open this discussion in a non-threatening way, with the baseline being that their relationship will survive any confusion over their involvement with B.; and that her boyfriend and B.'s friendship should survive intact, too. I think the LW will have gone a ways towards putting a lot of stuff right by allowing her partner to avow his sexual feelings towards B. She could say something like, 'I guess it's hard for you to admit your boner for him when he was there for you so much in a non-sexual way in the past' or 'I guess it hard because you feel you wouldn't know where you were with him in that sense'.

The boyfriend's feelings for B. are probably ones that, for reasons of his psychic health, he has to repress, or at any rate not act on (B. is almost certainly not someone he could date or be involved with), but she should try to let him voice his desires and aversions without panic or self-disgust.
8
I'm with @6 here - keep B out of the discussion unless boyfriend brings him up. If he's within bounds, once they have established bounds, he can be brought up later.

And @7, you are acknowledging that boyfriends feelings about B are irrational, and ones that he has felt the need to repress for his psychic health. You seem to see these as reasons that LW should bring the subject up - to me they seem to be reasons that she should tread very carefully indeed. This might be something that he could discuss with his therapist, but discussing it with the girlfriend that he feels a bit insecure about, does not seem to be to be a good idea at all, at least not while she also has unresolved, and complex, feelings. "Oh, here's a powder keg that could explode, harming us all - I think I'll just wave a lighted match around. What could go wrong, after all?"
9
Looks to me like B is playing manipulative mind games with both of them. The stress he’s causing bf may be related to some history of that nature, and the way I see it gf is clearly being played.
10
I think LW should get B to approach her boyfriend for another threesome and/or permission to get with just her some more. The boyfriend was probably just weirded out about getting a boner for his longtime hot platonic friend and needs another run at it. Seems pretty safe for B to suggest.
11
Lots to unpack in here.

LW, I suggest that you back away from B as fast as you can for the time being.

Twice you and B were alone together, and he came on to you. The first time he was actually wanking, yes? You told him no and it made you uncomfortable. If that were all that happened, then yeah, maybe a bit tactless since friends-of-friends are off-limits in your relationship but not a deal-breaker.

But then he did it again. And when B propositioned sexytimes at you, he deliberately isolated you from B, came on to you again, and then when you told him no he begged you to not tell your boyfriend because it would hurt your partners. Not YOU (the person he cornered in the car), but your partners. If you're feeling preyed on, it's because at least on some level you were. B could have asked your Boyfriend to drive him home, or taken an uber, or what have you. He didn't, he asked you.

What raises red flags to me is how B has done this twice now, deliberately isolating you and not taking your no for a solid answer. By isolating and escalating again, he's treating your no as an opening point to negotiation. Another red flag is by trying to trap you into secrecy, meaning trying to use shame to keep you quiet.

You did nothing wrong here. You, personally, have not broken any boundaries or rules of your relationship. Being attracted to a person is not wrong, and being attracted to a friend of your boyfriend is not wrong. Do you need to tell your boyfriend what happened? Yes, you should. You can say, "Since that night where we all had fun, it's been a bit weird around B so if we're going to hang out I want it to be with you." Do you need to go into sordid details? Maybe. I think you should be prepared to, especially if B continues doing this. Once is something you can handwave away. Twice is heads up. Three times is a pattern. If B keeps hitting on you or isolate-and-escalate, definitely tell your boyfriend.

There is a risk of imploding Boyfriend and B's friendship. But you're not the one who is undermining it. You've followed the rules of your relationship. If B's behaviour leads to him and Boyfriend having a falling-out, you're not the one who started the implosion...he is.

TL;DR, time to pull back from B.
12
There are two red flags that pop up in this SLLOD. Both Red Flags involved "B". He stated his is exhibitionist, and he actually acts out his exhibitionism to the letter writer, (Isolating her, masturbating in front of her)

If "B" is an exhibitionist, no matter that he has a hot body, and he is super hot, he may have a very serious mental health issue: paraphilia. As much as everyone has condemn Anthony Weiner, he pretty much has the same exhibitionist/paraphilia/mental health disorder. If "B" is really an exhibitionist, his gateway drug of shocking the letter writer, (which to me is his intent, her shock gets him aroused). has to stop. It will only go down the same path as someone like Anthony Weiner, where "B" will have problems maintaining, jobs, relationship and being on the right side of the law. Basically "B" may have some pretty self destructive behavior, no matter if he is hot, he turns on other people, it is consensual.. for now, I just see more of a stronger pathology, to shock and get more and more shocking to get a thrill. "B"'s actions with the letter writer, are enough risqué to wreck his friendship with the letter writer's boyfriend..

"B" needs help..
13
@12 I don't think we can tell from here whether B has a super-uncontrollable paraphilia, versus a taste that he just hasn't tried to control, because he hasn't had consequences yet from manipulating people into his games.

The LW can probably tell though. Does B show any signs of exhibitionism in any setting where he knows it would be trouble for him? If yes, then he has a problem controlling himself, if no, then he just is doing what he likes and can get away with.
14
I'm getting some of the same creeper vibes as CMD and some of the others. It might not be the exhibitionism itself, it's that she's uncomfortable with it and *that* is what B is truly getting off on. If I were the LW, I would make damn sure never to be alone with this guy, as he's already shown signs of not taking her 'no' very seriously.

LW, yes, you should work out the details of your open relationship with your boyfriend, but I wouldn't bring up B again unless he does something else to make you uncomfortable. And I most definitely would not play with him again, hot abs notwithstanding. There are other boytoys out there without such serious baggage weighing them down.
15
I think CMD @9 and Slinky @11 have nailed it, with an additional nod to ferret @12 for bringing in the Anthony Weiner paraphilia angle. Whether or not B. is acting with intentional malice, his ongoing sexy flirtation with LW has the potential to torpedo her relationship with her BF - especially if, as seems likely, BF has unresolved sexual feelings for B. himself. And possibly vice versa. I agree with Slinky @11 that it's time to level with BF and explain the weirdness that has been going on with B. recently - perhaps even show him this letter to explain that you have worked to shut it down, despite the obvious physical attraction. And yeah - in the future, at least until you clarify the boundaries of your open relationship with BF, you should actively avoid spending any more alone time with B. It's not easy to keep saying no to an exhibitionist Adonis!
16
LW, I agree with Dan, don't say anything to your BF. Given their history, all that would result is a mess.
Have minimal contact with Mr Jackoff Interruptus, and never be alone with him again.
With friends like these...
18
Insecure, depressed people should not be in open relationships.
19
"Whether or not B. is acting with intentional malice,"

This is a key point. It does not matter if B is deliberately trying to sabotage LW/Boyfriend or if he's only thinking about his dick or if (as 12 suggests) he has a paraphilia. The end result is the same.

LavaGirl @16, that's why I suggested the script of, "Since that night things are kind of weird." It leaves their history alone, is true, and gives everyone a constructive way out (if we are hanging out with him it needs to be together).
20
@8. Agony. I think the bf might need permission to express his conflicted sexual feelings for B. without feeling that they, variously, impugned his desire to be with his partner; invalidated his friendship or feeling of being mentored or supported by B.; licensed his seeking a more than friendly relationship with B., or confirmed he was a crack-up in his gay friendships or connections.

I'm not sure anyone here needs therapy. Some people have heard 'personal trainer' and thought, 'hot!'. But I've heard someone who at 24 is self-sufficient, self-moved, self-employed. These seem to be young queer people who have done without much adult guidance growing up. They seem to have their own support system, with elders, youngers, big characters; their own system of ethics. The bf's relations with B. can be flecked with sexual interest without their being predominantly sexual. As a young man I had sex with counselor figures--older boys--who jerked me off without my thinking the relationship sexual; I understood it as a way of their telling me not to feel ashamed of being gay or getting an erection around men. This wasn't a big part of their sex life; and I would never dream (even now) of sucking their dicks. The bf's touching and admiration could have been meant as essentially friendly and spectatorial, but then it crossed a line. In theory the gf or LW can help with this, but they need to clarify the way in which B. is off-limits for her.
21
@19. Slinky. I'm not sure B. is propositioning the LW. He's airing impossible fantasies--as a joke, as something pleasant, as a mental experiment. Part of the attraction of the LW to B. is that she's his younger friend's gf. He's flirting with the forbidden. These are young people who don't know what their boundaries are.
22
@9: Yup, I'm wondering if B is as harmful as he is "helpful" to the boyfriend. Sometimes "old friends" don't need to be in ones life out of some sense of misplaced obligation. He's manipulative and disinterested in the stability of his friends and their relationship boundaries.

Don't want a scene? Stop inviting him out and over.
23
@21: "Slinky. I'm not sure B. is propositioning the LW. He's airing impossible fantasies--as a joke, as something pleasant, as a mental experiment."

There's nothing impossible about his come-ons seeing as he wants to continue trying to fuck her after she has resisted, and those who use their friends as "mental experiments" aren't good people.
24
But as soon as LW and her fellow get past this little hiccup they should get busy having a bunch of kids, Don't you think?
25
Ferret @12: Isn't paraphilia just another term for fetish?

Fetishes and mental health are not mutually exclusive. I think the only "help" B needs is to possibly exercise a bit more restraint and maturity. But what has he done wrong, really? LW and B are in an open relationship. Flirting with people who are in open relationships is not wrong, and the flirting has up to this point been mutual. As Dan says, it's important that these young people discuss their boundaries. Assumptions fill the gaps where communication should be. If LW assumes it's fine to date B because they are "open," and her boyfriend assumes the opposite, they are headed for trouble.
26
@25 No. A Fetish is an obsession. It pertains to a certain part of the body, an inanimate object, or an object of clothing, to get sexual gratification.

A Paraphilia is an extreme sexual behavior that is self destructive, which becomes a compulsion, no matter the dangerous consequences. A paraphilia is a mental health disorder, like pedophilia.

Exhibitionism and Voyeurism are paraphilias, and those who have it, go to great lengths to fulfill their pathologic disorders.

Flirting is fine, we are primates, we need social interaction. Isolating someone, than starting to masturbate in front of them, while telling them they are so hot, when the other person didn't ask for it, it is more in shock than aroused or it is not consensual, is not fine. I see "B" getting his jollies off by the shock of the LW. In some ways he showed "restraint" by stopping.

Whether the LW and her boyfriend are in an open relationship or not, it doesn't give "B" a right to act out his desires for the LW. Personally, I feel the second episode of driving "B" home was a way for "B" to talk dirty to the LW, sort of like a dirty phone call.

I don't have enough info or make a judgment that "B" has a paraphilia, but "B";s behavior are red flags to watch. I don't see "B" having a fetish, unless he has a mirror/Adonis fetish..
27
I'm going with the general consensus: 1) Get your boundaries straight, pronto! 2) B is being a dick by coming on to his friend's GF twice. He may know you are in an open relationship and thereby feels that it's therefore your decision to give the green light or not, but it's still a dick move to hit on you behind his friend's back. This guy is not to be trusted, and I'll further go with the consensus to avoid him like the plague, whether the newly defined fucking rules allow it or not. Somewhere down the line your boyfriend may decide on his own that he wants to give this threesome another try and you can get a second taste then, but if so, I'd be VERY CLEAR to B that the two of you are otherwise off limits without Boyfriend's participation. You have an open relationship, find another hot toy to play with and, as per my oft stated advice, don't shit where you eat.
28
I think the jump to Paraphilia is a bit extreme. It's possible, but I don't see anything in the letter to suggest anything more than the general consensus that B is an asshole with a large ego who gets off on affirming that other people think he's hot. He doesn't sound like a very good friend.
29
ferret @ 26
While I agree that BDF may be more focused on the open relationship side of this situation, exhibitionism and voyeurism are not necessarily paraphilias. Like any other behaviors there can also be "ethical exhibitionism" despite B not likely to be one of them.
30
Ferret @26: I see your point, but let's face it: B&I has encouraged the situation. She is not an unwilling victim for his exhibitionism. She's made it clear she finds him attractive and enjoys looking at him. They had a sexual experience, remember, which included her boyfriend. My sense is that B hasn't made more attempts to include the boyfriend because he is probably straight. During the "jacking off a little bit" incident, I suspect both were turned on and talking dirty to each other -- there was consent, up to a point. What I'm trying to say is that I suspect B&I is downplaying the extent to which she has participated in and encouraged these inappropriate interactions. She doesn't seem "shocked" at all; she seems tempted. (Haven't you been there? I know I have.)
31
If B&I was really creeped out by the "jacking off a little bit" incident, I don't think she would have offered to drive B home alone.
32
Wow. All we know about B's exhibitionism is that he twice he exposed himself to people who consented to it. (Yes, that consent was withdrawn in the last encounter, but she did consent at first.) And some people here have him dropping his pants on the street corner and sending unsolicited dick pics to strangers. Yes, some people take exhibitionism too far, and try to expose themselves to non-consenting people. But we have no evidence at all that B is one of them.

Also, these three incidents (the threesome, the shut down jack off session, and the talk in the car) happened over a period of six months. LW and her boyfriend have been together a year. Six months in, they have the three-way. A month later is the interrupted jack off scene. Then she says the car talk happened last night, so that would be five months later. (1 year - 6 months - 1 month = 5 months) Maybe there were other incidents that weren't mentioned (or edited out), but again, no way to know that. Being that B seems to be an important part of LW and her boyfriend's lives, I doubt these were their only contacts during those six months. This doesn't really seem like he's trying to pressure or manipulate her.

I'm with BDF, in that I think LW is tempted, and wants not to be. Which is perfectly legit on her part. Resisting temptation is hard, and in this case, giving in could have huge consequences. It would be so much easier not to be tempted at all. But I'm not sure that's going to happen. She's got a few options. Keep resisting. Give in without permission. See if she can get permission. I'd vote for the third option, gently as Dan suggested. But that's me, and LW knows her relationship better than I, and whether that's her best option in this circumstance.
33
@23. UndeadAyn. B. 'gave me some sexy BDSM scenarios that he would like to act out ... However, we both knew we could not betray our partners'. This sounds as if it was a hypothetical as much as an actual, full-on pass. B. brought up something he thought was impossible. But he does sound out-of-control.

This isn't to say he hasn't been a solid friend to the BF, or that they don't have a valuable relationship. These people have vivid, chequered lives. The LW and her boyfriend need to work out their boundaries.
34
@ 32, "This doesn't really seem like he's trying to pressure or manipulate her."

This is why I say it doesn't matter what his intentions are. The end result is that LW is not happy with the situation. It doesn't matter what the timeline of events is...if LW isn't happy, it doesn't matter if these encounters took place over a period of 6 months or 6 days.

And I disagree with you about him not trying to manipulate her...because after she shut him down when he was masturbating in front of her, he asked her for the ride home and when they were alone together and she had no way out, he started talking up the BDSM sessions, AND when she shut him down again, he told her to not let her boyfriend know. Isolating her, escalating, and then trying to get her to keep what he said to her a secret IS manipulative. If she feels manipulated, she needs to trust her gut.
35
Slinky @34: She's not happy because she desperately wants to fuck him, but he's off limits.
36
@35: She definitely sounds conflicted about it all, yes she wants him on some level but it came across (to me) as there being hesitation beyond the concerns of her boyfriend with the walking hardon behavior of the friend making her uncomfortable.

This seems like a scenario that'd be best solved by setting boundaries. She could at least attempt to actively avoid this trainwreck, though I wouldn't be surprised if he continued trying to plea and create scenarios. Maybe I'm just reading in from experience but in context it sounds like the friend is a potential dramastorm that someone younger may not have easily sussed out.
37
I mean, yeah they've been friends forever (in the townie sense where there was a past connection but people need to move on with their lives and to a more positive friend circle) but trying to covertly fuck your friends partners is where things get unstable and unequal.
38
Undead @36/@37: The way I see it is two people are playing with fire. You have B&I, who wants B, but her principles are stopping her from letting things go too far. Then you have B, who is less principled. I don't think she has said a hard no to B, which encourages B to keep up the pursuit (though Procrastibator @32 makes a good point about the timeline; this is not an ongoing campaign of seduction. Perhaps B had been drinking, which led him to lower his inhibitions on the car ride home). She's got an angel on one shoulder and a devil on the other and she's not sure now which one she's going to let win.

One possible end to this scenario: She asks her boyfriend for a one-off hall pass, screws B, discovers B is just as selfish in bed as he is out, and ends up perplexed as to what she ever saw in him. Great way to get over a crush. :)

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