If LW does want a good, healthy, non-monogamous relationship, the key is to very calmly react to the present situation. If girlfriend realizes that her boyfriend can respond to difficult situations calmly, communication will be much better going forward. If boyfriend turns this into a reason to be angry or extract revenge, the communication required for an open relationship in the future will be far more difficult to achieve.

And not sure why Dan didn't mention it so I will...

LW should not assume the sex was consensual.

He shouldn't assume it wasn't, but until he actually has an explanation of what happened, he should not set himself up for being the asshole if it turns out his GF had a non-consensual experience.

"And while it's not natural"

Neither is clothing, alcohol, medicine, living in houses, or the internet, Dan. This reasoning fucking sucks.

Woooo let's double down on bad decisions!

@1: The LW knows the sex was consensual after talking to her about it, thus he didn't need to make it a point? Why would he ask her for extra "benefits" if she was raped?

Some days Dan makes me yell at the screen "no Dan this is a really shitty starting point to do poly from", but not today. Thanks Dan.

I would say, don't do too much. It's now her job to figure out how to rebuild trust. Does she realize that? Does she actively want to? Don't play games, but do back off a little and give her space to show her intentions.

If you drag her through Big Trust Talks, then you learn a lot less about where she's really at. Which you need to know.

Every once in a while Dan comes through with an answer like a Boss!

DRIP, I think the thing should cause you most concern is that after your girlfriend cheated on you, she came home and disingenuously opened a conversation about opening your relationship, after she had done so unilaterally. I'm not sure there is a "right" way to apologize for cheating on a partner or a "right" way to make up that wrong, but your girlfriend's concealment and misdirection certainly wasn't it.

I think you need some answers from your girlfriend. She needs to come clean about her vacation and any other outside sex she has had in the course of your relationship (if any). I think you have a right to ask her whether she wants monogamy or non-monogamy. Of course, if she has been regularly cheating, you'll know that in practice she's not going to be honoring a monogamous commitment. I think then you'll be in a position to think about what it is you want.

@1/biggie: DRIP needs to demonstrate that he's capable of having a calm, mature reaction in order to have good communication between himself and his girlfriend? To date, Ms. DRIP has demonstrated poor communications skills, not DRIP. She had something to tell DRIP, "I had sex with someone else," but instead said, "Let's discuss opening our relationship." And after eliding on her cheating, I'm not sure why you think there is any reason to believe that Ms. DRIP didn't consensually engage in sex.

I honestly wouldn't be down with continuing the relationship, hall passes or threesomes be damned. She cheated, and didn't own up to it until LW came up with an oozy dick. Yeah, no. Fucking around and bringing home a disease is pretty much a relationship ender in my eyes.

@8 I mean, if she cheated and brought it up apropos of her guilt and they explored open relationships together, it might be different but getting an STD and finding out THAT way...

What is the fucking point in dealing with a joker like this?

The only positive thing he says about the relationship is when he refers vaguely to "the benefits conferred by our commitment to one another." If he likes her a lot, maybe he can get past the lying & hypocrisy. If he doesn't like her a lot, then he already should know what to do.

Yeah, they need less fucking and more communicating for now.

@3

For the win.

"The clap" is gonorrhea, not chlamydia.

I'm in the DTMFA camp. It's not that she cheated. It's that she cheated and lied about it when she was guaranteed to get caught. Which means that it's entirely likely she's been cheating all along but hasn't been caught before. Oh, and she didn't take precautions against getting an STI while engaged in her cheating: That could have been HIV she just gave him, rather than the very treatable chlamydia.

Her dishonesty and disloyalty while insisting on his honesty and loyalty is the dealbreaker here.

Biggie @1: "LW should not assume the sex was consensual."

Whaaaaaaat?

Seriously, people who have been raped do not come home talking about opening their relationship. They come home in tears wanting hugs and reassurance.

Presumably more has gone on here than GF comes home from holiday -> BF gets surprise chlamydia. Surely they've talked about where the chlamydia came from. Why on earth would someone who'd been raped pretend they hadn't??

Now HERE is an example of someone who's gone about possible relationship-opening in entirely the wrong way. Commenters who have condemned other recent LWs, take note. THIS is how you do it wrong.

@4: There's no indication that he has talked to her about this at all, DRIP says he knows she cheated because he has an STD, and the letter strongly implies his GF has not told him anything about having had sex with others.

@7: Lots of times people don't fess up to cheating because they fear the reaction to it. Even Mr. Savage himself advises that if you mess up once, are sorry, and aren't going to do it again, you may want to consider keeping your mouth shut (although not if you might be passing on an STD.) If BF confronts GF about the cheating in a level manner, GF may learn that she can communicate with BF without fearing an excessive reaction, leading to GF being honest going forward because she understands being honest works.

@15: See my @4, but also, NO, there is no "normal" way for people to have been raped to behave. For all we know she was with some guy she may have liked, got drunk or drugged and he had sex with her, and morning after thinks it's her fault for putting herself in that position. It's even possible she doesn't realize she had sex at all.

I'm not saying that's LIKELY, but it's possible, and DRIP should not rule out the possibility before having an explanation of what happened.

DTMFA. Manipulative narcissistic gaslighting hypocrites don't confine that behavior to just one issue. This is symptomatic of a larger (and, most likely, incurable) problem with her personality and her ethical compass (or lack thereof).

The relationship is over, but not only because she double cheated big time.
I sense a lot of resentment in LW’s tone and ideas. It seems like he is almost happy she fucked up so now she supposedly “owes” him and he can force her to do stuff his way.
And his goal is to have a poly frame work based on love and honesty?
Call me old-fashioned.

Yes LW go for the full what she owes you. I'm sure your oozing pus itchy penis will be such a turn on for so many. Threesome with a oozing pus penis ( opp), my my, I'm getting wet just thinking about it.

LW " chuck away the main interpersonal
project," is a weird way to talk about your relationship with your gf of six years. She cheated, she infected you then she tried to cover herself with bull dust. Why would you want to invest more time into this project when it so obviously is a failed one.

"Cheating doesn't always mean something is wrong with the relationship."
Yes it does.
At the very least it means the partner that cheated has a problem with communication and honesty.

CMD @18: Wins the thread.

Biggie @16: I agree, it seems like they haven't talked about this. But I maintain that the fact that she came back from her holiday talking about opening up the relationship is a 99.9% indicator that the sex she had was knowingly and willingly, even if the STD potentially was not (she may not have had any symptoms).

Adam @21: No it doesn't. Cheating but not confessing means the person that cheated has a problem with communication and honesty. If GF had behaved like BARE and his partner discussed, they could indeed round it down to a "slip up" and proceed like mature adults. That's not possible here. This particular cheater is also a coward and a hypocrite.

But based on LW's reaction, perhaps these two deserve each other.

Does GF know she has chlymadia?!

Come on, Dan, you know women are often asymptomatic until they find out they have seriously damaged their fertility years later! Whatever discussions happen about cheating, open relationships, threesomes, etc, the first thing he should say is 'You need to go to the doctor, because you have an STI.'

Lava @19: LOL, you win the thread too.

@22: There still was/is something wrong with the relationship that led to the act, they're not saying the relationship is doomed. Why would a talk be necessary if nothing was wrong? It wouldn't be defineable as "cheating" otherwise I would imagine.

@16/biggeI: Dan explains that monogamy is hard, and that really successful monogamous relationships include those where one or both partners cheated once or twice. And Dan also notes that if you're really contrite about your outside sexual contact, the relief you feel from coming clean can be less than than the hurt you cause your partner, and therefore suggests remaining silent. But that's not what Ms. DRIP did. She cheated and then came home (unaware she was carrying an STD) and suggested that they open their relationship.

The rest of your comment is again about what communication skills DRIP needs to demonstrate, and suggests that if DRIP follows that course, it will lead Ms. DRIP to become honest going forward because she understands being honest works. I think Ms. DRIP needs to demonstrate on her own that she is going to be capable of an honest dialogue about her behavior and her desires. And as a first step, I think that means coming clean about her vacation and any previous times she has cheated.

Undead @25: The point I, and Dan, hope to make is that people in happy relationships sometimes succumb to the temptation of sex with others, despite nothing being "wrong" in the existing relationship, other than possibly that the cheater shouldn't have committed to a monogamous one. Sometimes cheating doesn't mean something is missing. Sometimes it just means humans are horny and weak. (I am speaking here in the general sense, not to DRIP's particular scenario. It is possible that nothing was wrong in their relationship; that Ms DRIP failed to disclose not because she feared DRIP's reaction for any reason, but because she's selfish and cowardly. That's not "something wrong with the relationship"; that's something wrong with Ms DRIP.
And if "it contains flawed people" is enough to classify a relationship as "having something wrong with it," then every relationship has something wrong with it.)

I don't understand what you mean by, "Why would a talk be necessary if nothing was wrong?" Nothing WAS wrong before the cheating happened. Something is wrong now.

Dan's advice was great, but I think it might apply best to a guy who's a little more emotionally open and real than the LW. He sounds kind of weirdly distant from the whole thing and creepily opportunistic.

UNdead ayn Rand

Normally, I'm on board with Dan that one episode of cheating shouldn't be a deal breaker. But I think DTMFA is a serious option here.

What the fuck Dan. This is basically bottom of the barrel partner behavior. Why wasn't your advice "DTMFA"??

Here's the hitlist:

* Cheated
* Got an STD
* Attempted to trick her partner into reverse-blessing it
* Passed on the STD to her partner

There's nothing in the letter to recommend forgiveness for any reason. Cheating can be forgiven, but the rest is just scummy and manipulative.

@BiDanFan
If You can't be honest with your partner about your feelings then there is something wrong with your relationship.

@BiDanFan
To clarify, you should tell your partner before you have sex with someone else.
If you've made a promise to your partner, you have a responsibility to tell them before you break that promise.

LW's priorities seem kind of odd. Seems like it should be
1) get treatment and wait for recommended time to resume use of infected body part, no matter what else happens
2) sort out whether to stay in relationship at all
3) look for threesome opportunities, which are unlikely to work out before 1) is sorted out

As LG @19 points out, "Hello. I have an itchy, oozing penis. Want some?" isn't an ideal pitch, and doesn't get better if you add "This is my girlfriend, who gave me the oozy itch by cheating. Now she owes me a threesome. You in?"

@29: "UNdead ayn Rand"

That's the name. Assume it was just a mental image of a decaying corpse that just won't seem to die in American politics and has nothing to do with my leftist beliefs and empathy for others. Not that I don't find her story fascinating...

@28: Exactly. Can't speak to him being a good person in general but he's wanting to "get something" he "deserves" out of his partner in a creepy sounding manner. He hasn't learned the right lessons here if he's (errr) itching to have his health risked yet again, as with any unknowing third parties.

@32: Right? No relationship is "perfect" but I don't get how the flaws of cheating should be so glossed over.

Nobody's genitals just "fall into" each other, not even on the space station. Which is a great mental picture for anyone.

dead ayn rand @4 Color me obtuse, but "has" DRIP confronted his duplicitous CPOS girlfriend about her cheating and gifting him with chlamydia. I'm not so sure. They have sort of talked about opening their relationship. He now believes she did so deceitfully (guilty conscience, misdirection, whatever). He knows that she (being vehemently monogamous) didn't have chlamydia when she went on vacation, so she obviously fucked someone(s) on vacation, contracted chlamydia, came back home, and gave it to him. She is probably asymptomatic and does not know she has chlamydia. If she did know and fucked him anyway, then she is a real piece work and he is well rid of her (Sarcastically: Can anyone think of a more effective way to deep six a relationship. Way to Byzantine for my tastes) The sex had to be consensual since she didn't show any signs of physical or emotional trauma.

My reaction would be to end things and find some like minded soul. Everybody makes mistakes, but she has violated her often and adamantly stated core principles. How can he ever trust her again? She had unprotected sex with someone(s) else and didn't get herself checked out for STI before having sex with her boyfriend. I find that reprehensible. Not having to worry about contracting an STI is one of the two primary benefits of monogamy. The other being that if you get pregnant there is no question of paternity.

Oh and unless her tubes tied she should check to see if she is pregnant. The perfect storm, STI and pregnant. The only thing worse would be if there had been more than one someone else.

Should DRIP confront her and tell her that he knows. not thinks, but knows that she cheated on him, but not how he knows? I she fesses up then the relationship may worth saving. It she is offended, if she tries to gaslight him, or if remains adamant that she didn't cheat, then the relationship probably isn't worth saving. In any event, it would at that point that DRIP should tell her that she needs to be treated for chlamydia.

@36: I suppose if he'd rather talk about "retaliation" threesomes than his blistery peen, the next step is at the very least mentioning it when breaking up with her.

@37: Not his problem by that point!

Upon reflection. if she got wasted (she was on vacation) and wound up fucking someone, would that be a mitigating circumstance? She would've shown really poor judgment, but at least there was no intent to cheat. Unless she got wasted because she wanted to cheat.

Thexalon @14 Are you assuming that she knew she had chlamydia or is there some other way she would have known that she was guaranteed to get caught?

BIDanFan @15 I not sure that they have had the cheating/where the chlamydia come from discussion "Now that she's the one having unprotected sex behind my back and failing to come clean". DRIP only says that "after she returned from vacation, she wanted to talk about the possibility of being less exclusive with one another. I was very supportive of the idea because I've never truly believed that monogamy was right, good, or natural" .That implies that they did talk about it, but only that. I would have expected DRIP to explicitly say that they had talked about her cheating and the chlamydia, if they had talked about it, but he didn't so they haven't talked about it.

If I'm wrong I expect you will tell me that I am and why I am. The why would be much appreciated.

biggie @16 Maybe when he calms down he can calmly talk about her cheating, chlamydia, and hypocrisy "She was always adamant that the unfaithful partner had a responsibility to tell the other because of the risk posed by VD." I know I would be seething after finding out that I had chlamydia courtesy of my cheating, deceitful (talking about non-monogamy) hypocritical GF. That is a lot to process at one time.

If she didn't before, she will know that she was fucked (in both senses of the word) by someone when she finds out she has chlamydia.

I would

undead ayn rand @35 sorry I got interrupted before I actually penned a comment. Posting was unintended. Here is a horrifying thought. Donald Trump as Ayn Rand's poster child of the perfect man (Howard Roarke). I believe she was that warped.

@44: I'm not sure? She'd appreciate his bravado but she was a firm supporter of reproductive rights. I should really look into her opinions on Reagan and Planned Parenthood.

@43: If he cared about her on any level (versus orchestrating the threesome of his fantasies), wouldn't he encourage she get treatment for the disease? Even as an asymptomatic carrier, god god. It's a little sick on his end no matter how angry over the infidelity.

Adam @33: So you foresee someone sending a text at 2am? How realistic is that? People "slip up," and sometimes the only "feeling" involved is "I'm horny and you're not here."
If you've made a promise, surely your responsibility is to keep the promise, not to advise them that you're about to break it? What good would an "I'm about to cheat on you" text accomplish?

Adam and Undead: See, attitudes like yours are why I questioned BARE's self-described "monogamy" on this thread. http://www.thestranger.com/slog/2017/05/…
Surely every "monogamous" person is as absolutist as yourselves, and therefore BARE's forgiving and realistic approach must make him something different?
No, actually. It turns out the difference is living in the real world vs living on these threads.

Skeptic @40: The only mitigating circumstance I would accept would be if she had immediately fessed up the first chance she got. She didn't. Therefore it doesn't matter how "accidental" the sex was. Fucking someone without a condom and then not telling your partner you've potentially (in this case, actually) exposed them to an STI is a DTMFA in my book.

Undead @46: I know, right? A few years back, a past lover told me he had got genital warts. His approach wasn't "I may have exposed you to this, perhaps you should get checked out," but rather, to claim that he "wasn't blaming me" and then proceeding to blame me. Thanks, pal.

@47: "Surely every "monogamous" person is as absolutist as yourselves, and therefore BARE's forgiving and realistic approach must make him something different?
No, actually. It turns out the difference is living in the real world vs living on these threads."

I have less opinion on BARE's desire to set a communication path if either party cheated or "slipped up" or whichever. It's a much more mature approach for both partners than this letter.

@47 BDF: So are you always on the "confession is better" side, rather than the "if it was a one-time fuck-up, hide it forever" theory?

This girl came back and tried to open things up, so the one-time theory clearly isn't applicable here, but suppose it was--suppose she cheated, felt awful, was planning to never do it again--would you advocate fessin' up anyway?

I can't decide how I feel. I used to think that confession was something guilty people did to feel better about themselves, to get forgiven, at the expense of a lot of happiness of their partner. Still, infecting someone is not good. So I suppose the unprotected sex pushes it into fessing up territory. But even if it were protected sex, there's still some risk; HPV, herpes, for instance. So when does the "keep the secret 'til you die" thing kick in?

Ciods @50: You're correct, the unprotected sex pushes it into a must-disclose situation. Regardless of morals, she put his health at risk. He deserves to know that. (BEFORE finding out the hard way.)

In this situation, particularly since she knew she was the one who'd insisted on monogamy (and broken it), she should have used the confession as a way to open up talk about nonmonogamy, rather than using a discussion about nonmonogamy as a smokescreen to hide the cheating. She brought up nonmonogamy because she knew he was positively inclined towards it. She should have said, "I slipped up and cheated, and now I understand that you can simultaneously be attracted to other people while still being committed to your partner. I didn't use a condom, so we need to use condoms until I can get tested. Once the test results come back, let's talk about some ground rules for being monogamish."

Funny you mention HPV and herpes. Apparently, 60%-80% of the adult population carry these viruses; they can, as you state, be passed while using condoms; but they can also remain dormant in the body for years before an outbreak occurs. So if it were a wart or sore that LW had suddenly contracted, that wouldn't be evidence of recent sexual activity. If she'd cheated and used a condom, I don't think HSV/HPV risk would in itself be a reason to disclose, unless the person had visible symptoms.

I guess for me, the consideration would be, would telling devastate your partner and ruin the relationship? In this relationship, the answer is obviously no.

I'd advise LW to DTMFA so he can explore threesomes and open/poly relationships with other People.

I'm gonna echo what some other commenters have said - the way LW refers to his gf as a thing ("interpersonal project") and seems more interested in using this opportunity to get concessions out of her is weird in the extreme. Priorities, my man, priorities.

First, you need to tell her you got sick and then she needs to get tested and go on treatment too, if need be. Then, you two need to discuss how this happened, and give her a second chance to own up, if indeed she cheated on you as you expect. (I'm with biggie, I wouldn't rule out a sexual assault that GF may not recall, esp since it sounds like this happened on Spring Break.) Then, once your GF knows what you know, you two need to discuss if you want to stay together and if so, what the terms will be going forward.

And after all that... a great while, I should hope, unless you're itching to infect someone new... I think you could have the threesome/poly/nonmonogamous convo. But twisting your GF's arm for concessions at this juncture is just vindictive, and likely to damage your relationship even more.

I guess the best approach would be to take a page from BARE's maturity handbook and discuss up front, "If I ever cheated on you, assuming there were no STI risk involved, would you want to know?" Of course, people might *think* they'd want to know, but nevertheless freak out if the situation became non-hypothetical. I don't think there's a one-size-fits-all answer.

undead ayn rand @43 I wasn't suggesting that DRIP not tell her immediately to get treated. I was responding to suggestion that he calmly discuss with things with CPOS (yeah I know, pejorative). Trying to discuss things calmly, rationally is not realistic while he is upset, his emotions roiled by her betrayal (on multiple levels) If he can be rationale while emotionally upset then he is a better man than me. If she doesn't see how hurt and upset he is then she won't face her culpability. Mistakenly believing that (lies, deceit, betrayal) aren't big of issues for him since he doesn't appear that upset. Isn't displaying strong emotions the most effective way of demonstrating to her subconscious mind just serious it is? The problem with cheating is not so much that you fuck someone else, but the distain and disrespect that you are showing (it's ok to lie deceive and betray)

BTW: I've run across a great Ayn Rand quote: to cheat your way into a job bigger than your mind can handle is to become a fear-corroded ape on borrowed motions and borrowed time

BiDanFan @47 Isn't texting at 2 AM that you are going to break your promise a (cruel) great (not) way to break up.

All I was asking was (rhetorical question actually): Does fucking someone when you are wasted mitigate the fact that you are cheating? I would hope so, but what she has or has not done is still reprehensible (given her previous statement(s) on VD and betrayal)

Keeping a secret (of something bad you did) until you die or more accurately take to the grave with you is a great sentiment, but becomes more and more difficult the longer you have to keep the secret.

change betrayal to cheating

Is unprotected sex still a must disclose situation if you get checked out (and treated) for a VD before you have sex with your partner (no harm, no foul)?

Devastate now or devastate later when there are complications like marriage and/or children involved (since you can never guarantee that the secret will never be disclosed)

Not necessarily weird, depending on how long after disclosure letter was penned. How angry and hurt was heat the time?

I appreciate all the comments about how much of a jerk thing it is to initiate openness as a way to make recent cheating ok retroactively without disclosing the cheating episode. It doesn't seem particularly bad to me, and it's useful to see so many people saying it's terrible and worthy of making someone a MF who should be DA.

I'm talking about the general idea, and not the specifics of this situation with the monogamous-and-must-disclose-because-of-VD-risk-and-then-doesn't-disclose-with-actual-VD issue (I agree with commenters who say she doesn't know she has chlamydia), the bitterness and anger about being "cucked", proposed punishment threesomes, etc.

@6 Nocutename. I agree--Dan's is a perfect answer.

The LW gives very little sense of what he wants. Perhaps he's too hurt or angry to have things straight in his mind. Does he want sex with other people? Does he want his gf to be faithful to him? The language he uses is that of business--'relational capital', 'major interpersonal project'; this could mean he doesn't much care about his partner, but it could equally be a self-mocking deflection of what he's feeling. Strangely, the person who gives me a sense of how much she cares more is his girlfriend, who seems to be less enamored of the relationship than she once was. She cheats (and worse, has unprotected sex), then introduces this indirectly, rather than having the respect to 'fess up and (probably) the confidence to have a discussion of where she sees they're headed. I'm not sure she seriously envisions a future for them; and if there is, there will have to be more of a reckoning, and a sounder basis of honesty and trust, than the bf seems to anticipate to judge by the way he asked his questions of Dan.

Ank @61, it's only a jerk thing because the previous arrangement was strict monogamy, and the strongest advocate for strict monogamy came back from a solo trip to greet partner with an STD and a proposal to change the existing terms of the relationship. Responsible, loving partners would negotiate new terms in advance of the trip, or failing that they would immediately confess to a "slip-up" and then have a serious discussion: open the relationship for both partners, mutually decide this was a one-time, forgivable glitch but they both still preferred monogamy, give the "wronged" partner a one-time hall pass to make things even again before returning to monogamy, expand to monogam-ish under specified conditions agreed to by both partners, or individually or mutually decide that they were no longer a good long-term match, and break up. GF apparently tried to play the middle ground and pretend that the disease-producing affair never happened, as long as no one found out. Unfortunately LW found out with his current diagnosis. Unclear whether he's informed GF or not, but I'm guessing not yet - he's playing the secrecy game here too.

I agree with Harriet @62 that LW's ironic language is meant to hide his anger and hurt at this betrayal - so I wouldn't read too much into his choice of business plan words to describe his lover and his current attitude. I think even his proposal for blackmailing GF into a threesome is really a coded message for: "SHIT Dan, she told me this and then she did that. WTF!?!"

Skeptic @56: "Isn't texting at 2 AM that you are going to break your promise a (cruel) great (not) way to break up."

Yes. That's why I disagreed with Adam @33: "To clarify, you should tell your partner before you have sex with someone else.
If you've made a promise to your partner, you have a responsibility to tell them before you break that promise."

In some situations, "telling your partner before having sex with someone else" would require a 2am text. That's why it's not a workable policy, IMO.

I can see your point -- is premeditated, or first-degree, cheating worse than opportunistic cheating, and if so, is drunkenness a good excuse for opportunistic cheating -- or could you say that if you are drinking so much that your judgment is impaired to the point that you cheat on your partner, perhaps that's a sign you have a drinking problem?

Skeptic @58: If you've been tested and cleared, then that removes the "you must disclose because you might have exposed them to an STI" requirement indeed. But given that HIV can take six months to show up, it's probably not going to be a relevant consideration in many relationships. If you cheat, and don't see your partner for six months, you're probably in a long-distance relationship, and the arguments for DADT in that case are much stronger.

As for "devastate now or devastate later," again, I don't think there is a one-size-fits-all answer. What are the odds they will find out? (Was the cheatee someone in your social circle or a holiday fling, as in this situation? Are you the sort of person who drinks and blabs?) What were the circumstances leading to the cheating, and have those circumstances been resolved? (If no, there is less chance of the cheater never doing it again.) Are you about to embark on a huge commitment, and do you think your partner might not make that commitment if they knew the truth? Many factors to consider.

@63: " I wouldn't read too much into his choice of business plan words to describe his lover and his current attitude"

I would. However he felt before the betrayal, he now considers her a non-person, fully detached and wants what he wants before he dumps her. He's not staying around beyond that.

BiDanFan or anyone else Is it possible to have safe unprotected sex in anything but a strictly monogamous relationship/marriage? Does cheating require that you dehumanize the person you are cheating on?

BiDanFan Oh the joys of social media. I continue to be amazed (not really) at the really stupid things people post to their Facebook walls. Photos/videos/streaming videos of underage drinking, destroying part of a fossil or national monument, assault, rape. Why not photos from your vacation (i.e. partying or making out with the STI infected person you cheated with) As I said really stupid things (add pix of your children, advertising them to pedophiles, predators, sex traffickers) A guy who posts (with pictures of) women I have fucked (cheated with). How many people check the social media sites of people they hook up/cheat with before they do?

Skeptic @66: Well, let's ignore HSV and HPV (genital warts and herpes) which the vast majority of people are carriers of, and which can show up years after the fact and can be passed even while using condoms, and which can be passed from mouth to genitals -- so someone with oral herpes they contracted in childhood could pass it to a monogamous partner via oral sex. Let's just stipulate that it is impossible to have sex at all and be "safe" from these viruses.

I would answer yes, another alternative to monogamy would be fluid bonding. This is where polyamorous people get tested and have unprotected sex only with each other, using condoms with every other partner. Generally, fluid bonding is reserved for just one pair, but if you have a long-term committed triad, they might all become fluid bonded.

The word "dehumanise" is so strong that I am considering your second question to be a rhetorical one. I think that cheating only "requires" you to consider, at that moment, your sexual desires to be more important than your commitment to be monogamous. So in other words, no. (Say, for example, someone who cheats as revenge against a partner who cheated. Are they "dehumanising" that person or simply seeking justice or payback? And take your example of someone who gets drunk and cheats. At that moment they are probably not thinking about their partner at all, let alone whether they consider them to be human.)

And as for your second rhetorical question @67, I think that if people are arranging to meet someone off a dating site or hookup app, they might well google that person's Facebook page (though they might not find much, depending on that person's privacy settings). If it's opportunistic sex with someone they met at a bar, I highly doubt it. But your biases are clearly on show here too. If you're posting holiday snaps, surely loads of people will feature in them, maybe including the "STI infected person" (way to shame) they slept with, maybe not -- but I've never seen any social media app that includes an "I fucked this person" tagging mechanism. If I post a bunch of photos of me with various people, how do you know which ones I've banged and which ones I haven't? It's pretty presumptuous to try to guess.

Anyone want to go for the magic number?

@ 68. BiDanFan. Yes, it's irresistible!

@ 63. Capricornius. The LW maybe needs time to himself, but in this case the first thing she should do is tell his gf she has chlamydia (which may well be asymptomatic; in fact, probably is), kindly and clearly advise her to get it cleared up, and ask her what she wants.

She told him the wrong way about her lapse--completely the wrong way. She should have said baldly, 'I made a mistake...' Even 'you know, it's funny how you were always the one who wanted to open the relationship and thought monogamy was unnatural, and now I've gone off and had sex, and worse, unprotected sex...' would have been so much better than what she actually said. While he decides what HE wants, I feel he's entitled to a cooling-off period and to give both of them space. Let him be kind about her STI but completely upfront in putting before her the issue of what she expects from the two of them together.

* first thing HE should do

BiDanFan Sorry, I was responding to the HIV example you gave at @64. I should have been more precise. No birth control (condoms in this context) is 100% effective to prevent pregnancy or the transmission of fluids (they break, they leak, somebody puts holes in them). People take calculated risks all the time. You can mitigate the risk, but you can you eliminate the risk except in a strict monogamous relationship/marriage.

If you (third person plural) know that doing something, WITHOUT JUST CAUSE, will really, really hurt someone you supposedly love, but do it any way, then how are you not devaluing, disrespecting, and yes dehumanizing that person? Of course you have to be able (not impaired) to know that you are doing harm you. Saying that the person will never find out is just a cop out to soothe a guilty conscience (assuming that you have a conscience). It doesn't matter if the person affected never finds out, you still incur a karmic debt that will be paid, sooner or later. I can only hope that they are the one to pay the price. I really love self described Christians who think they are saved from damnation just because they "say" that they believe in JC. Actions speak louder than words and there is no way to be a Christian, if you don't act like a Christian. I'm at least honest enough to admit that I am flawed.

Harriet_by_the _bulrushes I tried for 69, but failed So far she has told DRIP diddly squat. The only reason he found out anything was because he wasn't asymptomatic. Give her a get well soon card. Yes he has an obligation to tell her, but no obligation to tell her in person. Better than just texting her.

Skeptic @71: Gotcha. In that case, yes, it is possible to have safe, 0% HIV risk sex in a fluid bonded polyamorous relationship with no outside partners. IE, the only people involved are A, B, C and D, and all four have been tested and waited six months, and none of them uses condoms, but none of them is having sex outside of the closed circle.
Perhaps you could call that polymonogamy?

Your point is taken that condoms are not 100% effective, so in the above example, if A has safe sex with Z, all four of them are at risk. These are calculated risks that polyamorous people take. I have found, and research supports this, that poly people are generally far more meticulous about condom use than non-poly people in non-committed relationships (ie serial monogamy, casual dating). The reason is that if you're poly and you get an STI, it's not just you who suffers. Caring poly people are concerned about their partners' sexual health as well as their own, and don't expose people they love to disease. (They also have zero incentive to not admit "the condom broke, we need to go get tested now.")

So yes, there's a risk, but if you cross the street there's a risk you'll get hit by a car, and if you don't cross the street you'll never get to where you want to go. Non-monogamous people decide the rewards of having multiple partners are worth the slim risk of contacting STIs if one uses condoms religiously.

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What would you consider "just cause" for cheating? It seems disingenous to me that you are so anti-cheating, yet you seem willing to give people a pass if they were drunk.

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Interestingly, the whole concept of "causing hurt" is the argument Dan and others make for not confessing every infidelity. Apply your statement:
"If you (third person plural) know that doing something, WITHOUT JUST CAUSE, will really, really hurt someone you supposedly love, but do it any way, then how are you not devaluing, disrespecting, and yes dehumanizing that person?"
to the "something" of "telling my partner that I drunkenly cheated, feel horrible about it, and will never do it again." Your logic dictates that you don't tell, because telling will hurt them, right? Unless you have "just cause" to tell because you must warn them of STI exposure? (That's the other kind of "gotcha," by the way. Yes, I know that you were referring to the act of cheating, not the act of telling, but apply the same logic and you reach the conclusion that cheating and telling is worse than cheating and not telling. [Not saying I agree, just pointing out that your logic may be flawed.] For what it's worth, I agree that the person who decides that their just punishment is living with the guilt of a secret is indeed paying the karmic price for their transgression. Sorry, I seem to have missed whether you advocate telling vs not telling. I know you advocate not cheating in the first place!)

@73 cont. Actually, it is called polyfidelity.

Duh. Can't believe I forgot the other way to have multiple sexual partners with zero HIV risk. Lesbianism.

BiDanFan @73 My attitude on cheating is more nuanced than out right (total) rejection. I accept that there are circumstances where cheating is justified. Not having to decide whether or not to tell is a definite reason not to cheat. I have no clue whether or not to tell.

I had written a page long comment, but even then I couldn't ultimately decide whether or not to tell.

I should have written a strictly closed relationship or marriage, not a strictly monogamous relationship or marriage. While poly is not for me, I have nothing against it for anyone else.

I'm not sure whether I agree that "there are circumstances where cheating is justified." If so, they are few and far between. "Justified" and "forgivable" are two different things.

You seem to be focused on cheating as something a person does to their partner -- rather than something a person does with a third party, which has nothing to do with their partner. Most people, I'd wager, don't cheat with the purposes of hurting their partner. Most people probably aren't even really thinking about their partner. So they are disregarding them, yes; disrespecting them, yes; but "dehumanising"? That implies a far higher degree of malice than I would ascribe, especially to opportunistic cheaters. Opportunistic cheaters are simply thinking with their genitals. The effect may be to cause the cheatee a great deal of pain, but I doubt that is the intent. Lack of malicious intent is why, I feel, cheating may be forgivable, again depending on the circumstances.

Any relationship circumstances which are so bad as to justify cheating, the potential cheater would be better off either asking for an open relationship or leaving. That avoids the "two wrongs not making a right" problem.

I think another factor is that people who are naturally monogamous can't comprehend the phenomenon of being sexually attracted to someone when you are in love with someone else. For those who are not naturally monogamous -- Dan et al would argue this is most humans -- they make the conscious decision to "forsake all others," but that does not mean they are never tempted. A naturally monogamous person does not even feel tempted. They can't understand that general-you had sex with that other person just because you found them hot, though this frequently is the case. It may indeed boil down to nothing more than poor impulse control, and as such, shouldn't necessarily be taken as personally as you (Skeptic you) interpret it as being. Sometimes it is, in fact, just a "slip-up."

Calico @80: It took me a while to realise there were, in fact, naturally monogamous people too, that we weren't all going through life in a state of consciously resisting temptation. And I think perhaps monogamous people should cut the non-monogamous a bit of slack. It's easy to be a vegetarian when you don't like meat in the first place, not so easy when the mention of bacon makes you salivate. (By "cut a bit of slack" I don't necessarily mean allow cheating, what I mean is to try to understand that attraction to others isn't a personal attack.)

Good points, Cal @80 and BDF @81! Unfortunately the naturally monogamous are by definition unable to understand how anyone can truly love,honor, and cherish their chosen life partner, yet still yearn for sex (and sometimes love) with people outside the primary relationship. Since they cannot fathom ever wanting that for themselves, it's very threatening to hear that their partner wants it - and reassurances that the primary bond is still strong and healthy are unlikely to help them get over it, as Cal found out. Very few will have the intellectual detachment and the emotional security to be able to cut a non-monogamous partner that "bit of slack." (And thank you BDF for clarifying what you meant by that - not necessarily permission to cheat, but at least understanding that your partner can be attracted to others while still loving and desiring you as much as ever. Makes perfect sense to me - but then, I'm not naturally monogamous!)

I challenge BDF's notion that the naturally monogamous do not go through life in a state of consciously resisting temptation. Of course they experience and resist temptation - only the asexuals among us do not - but their sexual attractions for others actually help to reinforce the love and exclusive commitment they feel for their partner, rather than making them more likely to stray. It feels relationship-affirming for them to just say "No thanks" and head for home, and relationship-denying to consider whether an outside sexual experience might be worth breaking the exclusive bond they share with their partner. Even after the occasional slip-up - which, for the naturally monogamous, generally occurs only if they are substance-impaired, or already experiencing very serious problems within the primary relationship.

I should note that some monogamists can be pretty judgmental about non-monogamy and alternative lifestyles in general, especially when their "natural" monogamy has been shaped and reinforced by cultural or religious beliefs. Unfortunately this leads many people to assume that monogamy itself is synonymous with puritanical, strait-laced, intolerant attitudes, both in the bedroom and in the outside world. Not so. Most monogamists are quite happy to tend to their own exclusive partnership, while remaining highly supportive of everyone's right to make their own relationship choices.

BiDanFan @79 I think you are operating under several misconceptions. I never said I was naturally monogamous, au contraire mon ami, all I have ever said was that I am, by choice, strictly monogamous. In the same sense that I'm not naturally non-violent, I am so by choice. I have absolutely no problem with the personal use of deadly force. I have considered and decided on the circumstances under which I would feel justified in its use and will accept the consequences. Likewise I have and continue to consider the circumstances, costs and benefits of cheating or having an affair. Of course people feel sexual attraction towards other people, I certainly do, and yes it is possible to be in love with more than one person just as it possible to fall out of love. I do disagree that people can not control their emotions, they do it all the time. Accepting the premise that people can't control who they fall in love with, they certainly can control the circumstances/situations under which they could fall love in with someone.

What I find unnatural and apparently a lot, if not most, men is long term commitment to any relationship or as like to call it, indentured servitude (fatherhood even more so). That doesn't prevent women from understandably wanting that from men. Having been raised in an extremely dysfunctional family, I place a premium on stability. particularly when/IF agreeing to have children, which I did (I had no particular desire to be a father or a home owner, but I am both). I'm sorry to be so cold blooded about it, but what do I have a right to expect in exchange for agreeing to really long term. legally binding commitments (I could go to jail if I failed to fulfill the corresponding obligations)?

BiDanFan @79 Lies, deceit and betrayal are inherent in cheating and other things. They are most assuredly harmful things done to their partner. Any honest person does, in fact, know that cheating does harm to their partner. To me it is semantics to say that people don't cheat with the intention of hurting their partner when they know that cheating will hurt their partner. As to dehumanizing, what else do you call it when you decide it is okay to lie to, deceive, and betray a person. The military trains people to kill another human being, something that is not natural for most civilized people, by dehumanizing that person.

We will probably have to agree to disagree on many things. While there is no doubt mutual exasperation at times, there is no animus towards to you on my part. That we may have diametrically opposed opinions on things does not in and of themselves make either opinion wrong (unlike DJT). At most factually and/or logically in error (not alt-facts, Gawd damn what has that man done to logic), which in itself can be the subject of disagreement. I am not the font of all knowledge and wisdom, nor do I speak ex cathedra, or as the anointed of Gawd. Life would be really dull and boring if I only conversed with people who agreed with me. As perversely amusing as it was, I really don't want to be involved in a war of words exceeding 1000 posted comments any time soon.

Cap @ 82: I think that maybe one's inclination towards monogamy vs. polyamory is on a scale. My ex is at the most extreme of naturally monogamous -- I don't think he was lying, I really don't think that he was tempted at all. From the way he described it, once he was in a relationship with someone, the part of his brain that looked at and evaluated the potential attractiveness of others just shut off. I'm more inclined towards monogamy than not (monogamish at most) but I don't have that "brain switch" that turns off, and this was something that I could never communicate to him in a way that worked.

It was my first serious relationship and one of the things I learned from it was that, even if I choose to be in a monogamous relationship, I never want to be with someone who is that monogamous again. I think it was just a serious mismatch, though my ex framed it as some kind of virtue on his part. He is married to someone now who seems to be just as naturally monogamous as he is.

Skeptic @83: My apologies. Your reaction to the man whose wife had developed feelings for a friend and asked to be poly -- that her admission of feelings for another necessarily meant the marriage was over -- and your view of cheating as a way to intentionally harm one's partner rather than mere disregard of that partner suggested to me that you were one of the "naturally monogamous" people who just couldn't understand being attracted to anyone besides their chosen partner.

I call it, as I said before, disregarding, disrespecting, not dehumanising. I honestly see selfishness and callousness, but not malice, in most instances of cheating. Indulging one's sexual desires and taking lives are not similar at all! As for the intention, people may know that smoking causes lung cancer, but does anyone smoke because they want to get lung cancer? Knowing that cheating will hurt a partner is why people don't tell; it's not why they cheat in the first place.

I've enjoyed this discussion as well, it's been food for thought. Agree with Calico that monogamous vs non-monogamous are, like everything else, on a spectrum. You're probably (dare I say it) a Kinsey One on the monogamy scale: you experience temptation, but find it very easy to resist that temptation, when you compare the potential enjoyment against the potential harm it could do your partner. People towards the other end would rather lose a good, loving relationship if it required forsaking all others.

Skeptic: If you're still there, it strikes me that you and I may be talking about two slightly different things. I've been talking about opportunistic cheating, as described in the original letter -- aka a "slip-up." I'm not talking about an affair -- aka a prolonged, intentional campaign of deception and sneaking around. If this is what you're talking about, then I agree 100% that that person is dehumanising their partner and intentionally hurting them. LW's girlfriend probably did not intend to go on holiday and find some other guy to fuck; it "just happened." Whereas, if you're going on Ashley Madison, arranging dates, having friends cover for you... that is a whole 'nother level of betrayal.

Hi BiDanFan@87 & 88 Regarding the Restless. What you took as a request, I took as a demand. I can agree with you if it was a request, I can't if it was a demand. Whatever it was, it came out of the blue and was insensitive at best. There was no preparatory discussion on opening the marriage, which is partly why I took it as a demand. I don't really want to rehash past columns, but I think part of my reaction to Restless stems from the June 2016 column Two Dicks, One Girl (Who Happens To Be Engaged to Someone Else). I really hoped for a follow up letter for that nightmare. Does Dan ever request a follow up from a LW? Does Dan ever accept reader requests for a follow up? If ever there a letter that cried out for a follow up it was that one. Was there a follow up letter that I missed? Since we are discussing dehumanizing, what is/was your take on it in that case with its seeds for future betrayals. Three friends doing it in another friend's home(bed?), in which they were staying as guests, is particularly callous and was in mind dehumanizing. Sorry for the trip down memory lane. (That one still leaves a really bad taste in my mouth)

The violence/dehumanizing comments were just easy, not perfect, analogies for unnatural and dehumanizing acts. BTW I have a volcanic, normally short lived, temper that I keep in check with some effort. Talk about consciously controlling one's emotions. I've taken several Kinsey sex tests and I generally an outlier (I fall no where on the scale). Depends on how nuanced the questions and the mood I'm in.

As to the monogamy scale, theoretically I really don't care, It would depend on the circumstances and people involved (clashing personalities and all that). I don't really care what other people think, it is none of their business (let them have their illusions). However, I take commitment very seriously (I adopt the relevant persona). It would be easier for me to start with an open, closed, monogamous, monogamish, or poly relationship than change it. I would be more inclined to just walk away than deal with the emotional turmoil or say whatever and disengage emotionally. That may make me rigid in your eyes, but I prefer to say I'm focused (I'm all in one way or the other). Not so much resist temptation as avoid temptation. I have no idea whether I'm making sense or not. I reflects confusion in my own mind. The reality is that I wouldn't know until I had to deal with the situation.

'm not trying argumentative. I'm truly interested in your take, you obviously have a POV different from mine own. I can agree with you on opportunistic cheating (a one and done, both specifically and in general) As long as all contact ceases (difficult if it is a colleague, friend or family member) otherwise the temptation and awkwardness would always be there). Although I have a serious problem with a series of "slip-ups". If you are trolling bars (whatever) then intent is there and it is premeditated. Everybody makes mistakes. Adult adults learn from their mistakes so as not to repeat them.

Skeptic @89: "What you took as a request, I took as a demand. I can agree with you if it was a request, I can't if it was a demand."
I think you only took it as a demand because the word "demand" appeared in the acronym. These acronyms are often written by Dan and are often contrived to spell a particular word. I'll copy the letter without the sign-off, see how you read it (I'm taking liberty with emphasis):

"I'm a straight married male. My wife has a very close male friend who happens to be in a poly marriage. Recently, my wife said she would like us to be able to date others, have sex, romance, etc., but still remain a married couple. She specifically wants to date her friend. I am struggling. I am not closed off to having a conversation about nonmonogamy, but I struggle with the thought of her having a boyfriend. I want to be able to give this to her, but I feel like my mind and body are not letting me. Any advice is so much appreciated."

Sounds like a request to me.

And as mentioned, the irony is that so many people jumped on this wife for "lying" by not stating up front that she wanted to date the friend in particular. Whichever way she had approached it, it was never going to be an easy discussion. Anyway, moving on from that one...
*
Let me Google the 2016 column:
Yes, I remember this one.
The first point I would make would be: Given that the vast majority of straight men's ultimate fantasy is a FFM threesome, and most guys would take this opportunity if presented even if that did mean cheating, and in fact many men would give another guy a bollocking if he passed up such an opportunity even if it did mean cheating, let's first make sure there are no double standards involved when it's a woman in the exact same situation. [I don't think you personally would think this way, but a lot of men would.]

The second point I would make is that this appears opportunistic and therefore not dehumanising. Assuming this was this woman's ultimate fantasy, a fantasy she had long before she got involved with her fiancé, a fantasy she was not capable of realising with the fiancé, I think it's (1) more forgivable than just fucking another guy would have been, because it's something she couldn't get from her fiancé, and (2) highly likely to be a one-off that never happens again. ("Our girlfriend did say that she can now tick off "threesome" off her list of life goals and that she would happily marry her boyfriend now that it's done.")

So I think the odds of future fidelity are very high, and while ideally she'd confess to her fiancé when he got home and give him a hall pass to realise any similar fantasies he may have, ultimately that's the decision of the person in the relationship to make. (I see my comment @53 on that column restates what I've just said @88 above.)
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Thanks for clarifying about "rigidity" and where it's come from in your case. We are all a product of our pasts, and it makes sense that you would value stability over flexibility. But it is true that a large number of relationships start out mono and become poly. If both people want non-monogamy, that transition can work.

*
I absolutely agree that "a slip-up" is, again, a different animal than "a series of slip-ups." If this is a "mistake" that keeps happening, then the person is not learning from that mistake, and in fact, may indeed be seeking out opportunities. Serial slipping-up is, in fact, intentional and dehumanising. If you've made this mistake repeatedly, (general) you need to accept that you're just not suited for monogamy and stop pretending that you are.

Thinking further about the 2016 situation: From the guys' perspective, it was opportunistic; but from the woman's perspective, was it a planned seduction? It could have been less spontaneous than the LW realised. She invited them to stay with her; she knew her fiancé was away; she knew there was chemistry. Did she intentionally set this up as something to get out of her system before committing to a lifetime of monogamy? And if so... can she possibly invoke the "bachelor party" clause? I disagree with your final comment that this betrayal is an indicator of future betrayals. For one thing, she has in fact ticked the fantasy off her to-do list, and for another, believe me when I say that all the necessary human ingredients and opportunity for threesomes don't come along that often. These guys live in another country -- and at least one of them feels so badly about it I 100% believe he wouldn't let it happen again. Is "ultimate fantasy" a mitigating factor? I would say so.

Not one betrayal, but three!!! The chemistry and temptation remain (the LW admits that he wants to do it again), which is why there can never be be any further contact once an affair/cheating ends (I know his wasn't technically an affair per se, although an argument can be made that it is) especially if it is ever admitted/found it (there goes those friendships). This is not my personal opinion. I don't see how the friendships can continue. Unless the fiance is a total dunce, he is going to realize something is very wrong the next time four of them are together (i.e. Conclusion WTF happened while I was gone) if not sooner. The LW is having a melt down, how he will ever be able act naturally around either of the friends or more importantly when all the friends are together. Even if he avoids future temptation by not staying with the couple (or importantly just the female friend) the fiance is going to wonder why. One if not both relationships have been put in jeopardy (his guilty conscience is going affect his own relationship). Come clean and end it cleanly now. If it ever is admitted or found out in the future, the fiance's sense of betrayal and humiliation is going to be exponentially worse. (I base this on the description of the boyfriend as being very traditional, I doubt that he will ever be comfortable with an open/poly relationship/marriage, I may wrong in this, but I don't think I am) Add to this that his home (bed) was debased/defiled/desecrated/poisoned (I know someone with that mindset will react) It's not just something that happened in the (distant) past, it is the coverup (lies/deception) that the three of them will have to maintain until the fiance is dead.

BiDanFan You have argued that cheating isn't done to someone. This guy has been fucked and fucked over. Everybody knows this will destroy him. Given who you are I don't know if you will understand just how devastating this would. I'm serious in this. If this doesn't (literally) kill him outright (heart attack or stroke), the betrayal and humiliation will be too much to bear (suicide would be a real concern). This is situation that would drive me into a murderous rage. Being thrice cuckolded. Depending upon how passionate he is, how emotionally invested he is in his fiance and the friendships. Love can easily be flipped into seething hatred (murder or murder suicide can not be discounted)

How could you do this to me three times over.

This is something he will never forgive. He is psychologically incapable of forgiving them. They will have raped his soul.

BiDanFan I'm sorry for going overboard on this. This is a horrific situation for the fiance. The only thing worse would be if he had walked in on them. Murphy;s Law on steroids.

I agree with you cynic, not a good look by the woman who says she loves him. Like you, as a parent I thought monogamy the easiest story. I liked the closed circuit aspect of it. All blown away now, as it should be. We were done.
While the kids growing up it seemed best plan option. And we enjoyed each other sexually.
Anyway. That's not my main reason for responding. It was your use of the words murderous rage, which got my attention. Also you mentioning above about your short temper and how you manage it.
Here is where I get a little nervous. My husband had a short fuse, he never mastered it, and it does seem to come easier for men to have these impulses. Murderous rage.
Betrayal is shitty, it cuts to the core. To see it warrants murder is one big big leap.

LavaGirl I don't want you to misconstrue what I meant by short. I'm not quick to anger, but when I do it can be explosive. I realize how much damage this can do. My solution is to go off by myself until I cool down and I am again fit for human company.

I didn't say that betrayal warranted or justified murder, but it is not something that can be discounted as a possible outcome. Betrayal is likely to provoke a violent reaction up to including murder. Killing your children (oft times followed by suicide) because your spouse cheated on you is an extreme (and hardly rational) reaction, but it does happen. Death is too good/easy for them. They need to live and suffer is the rationale (especially if you find out that you aren't their biological father).

Well anger is anger, short or long fuse, good you've found a way to deal with it.
Yes, I read the papers. Every week another woman murdered by an ex or current male partner. When my marriage broke up, my husband, who lived around the road, moved his new gf into the house our children had lived in and where I had stayed several nites a week, a home where our family had been a family. Our kids all moved to my place. It was a two year nightmare until they moved to the other end of the country. His behaviour all up was so bad, I didn't believe it was the same man.
Even though I knew the attachment had to be broken, I still went thru grief. And nites where I'd go to bed, thinking of the two of them just a street away. Not once did I think to go and kill him. I'm sure revenge thoughts went thru my mind, can't remember. I'm just pointing out that this line of thinking, is much more a male one. And it's not inevitable to deal with jealousy/ betrayal with violence. Toxic masculinity has created this illusion in some male minds( many?) that if a woman betrays him he is entitled to act it out on her rather than process his own feelings.