Women who don't shave their legs or armpits are not necessarily the same as women who reject societal norms, are self-confident, or are ready to mate. I think PANIC needs to meet some real kinky women and learn more about what appeals to them.

“I also love power play like consensual non-consent (CNC), but I'm a total switch, so I really need to feel dominated, too. A woman to slap me around and call me mean names while pegging me... just fills that need. It makes me feel owned yet loved, in the sense that a girl who likes receiving CNC would also feel owned yet loved: in a comforting way. Plus receiving anal is all-around amazing.”

I don’t see anything about PANIC being a switch, “total” or otherwise. When he talks about a girl feeling owned, he wants to be in her place, rather than in the place of her Owner.

PANIC just seems like the common variety of man who fetishizes fake submission, where he pretends to submit and a woman fulfills all his fantasies (not shaving, slapping him around, calling him names, pegging him, etc.)

So, to me, the place to start would be to realize that he’s currently fantasizing about something that probably no one will be willing to do, except for money.

It may be possible to find a dominant woman who enjoys pegging, slapping, and name-calling, and who doesn’t shave – but she will have demands of her own. She will want to be able to change things up as she pleases, rather than as he demands. She will wear what she wants. She may insist that he work out more, or change jobs, or rim her whenever she asks.

If he wants a dominant woman, he’s going to have to give up his desire to control everything.
And if he wants to stay in control, he’s going to have to think about what he’s offering that might actually appeal to a real submissive woman or a switch.

I recommend backing off the search until he finds a local munch to attend, and then listening as people talk about what their power dynamics are like. If he wants his kink in the form of an intimate relationship rather than a professional relationship with a pro-domme, he needs to learn more about what kinds of intimate power dynamics are realistically possible with actual women.

"It's a sign of rejection of societal norms, of self-confidence..."

Meh. I prefer my own legs and pits hairless, but I can go periods between because I'm lazy af. My not fastidiously maintaining a hairless state might be "rejection of societal norms," but nothing more than that. Don't put your own beliefs on women you don't know or assume things about them as a group just because they don't shave regularly.

Um, yes, hello... Those women very much do exist. Hi, my name is E, and I'm a hairy af pegging enthusiast. If those are seriously the only things you're looking for, I doubt it will be difficult to find once you put yourself out there.

Keep in mind that rejecting one societal norm will usually come with a few more. Not giving a damn about what people think of you as an individual might mean no makeup and jeans and tees for the most part. So you should be prepared to look under the surface if necessary.

You won't get everything you want, either. I'd happy peg you until you're a blubbering mess, but any kind of CNC is on my no-no list.

Do you open up about ALL these things in the span of a month? Disclosure is great but it seems a bit early to convince someone you’re trustworthy enough or worthy of going out on a limb. People sure do exist that meet the needs, but all of them at once? And willing to jump right into them with a very new partner?

Even Fetlife is going to give you issues finding enough people to sort through, you’re going to have to network locally.

Dan sweety, Fetlife is not a dating site.
Yeah for a man who doesnt want the women he goes with, shaved.

LW- Life is full of compromises. If you’re looking for hairy, dominant; pegging enthusiast women then maybe you should put your conservative stuff in the closet rather than your kinks. Lefty women and men are more likely to be sexually open-minded, at least in the positive and accepting manner. (And I suspect some will happily beat the living stuff out of you once your conservative self comes out.)

I also sense some confusion as to what you really want. Some kinky events/meets will allow you to be an observer, though that may be a bit tricky for a single man.
Another option is hiring a professional, discuss in advance what is it that you really really want, make sure they’re ok with it and can deliver, and gauge afterwards what you liked or not and how to implement the act/s with a non-paid date.

what a hassle!

Jeez, relax people.
It's sex!! It isn't supposed to be done in the same manner you purchase a fucking shower curtain off of Macy's website.
"Oh, but I want the purple one, but I also want it to have orange plaid on the edges", oh no!!! I guess I just won't have a shower curtain!"
Whatever.

Erica @1

PANIC just seems like the common variety of man who fetishizes fake submission

What does it matter if the submission if "fake" from your point of view? Maybe he'll find a woman who enjoys fake dominance and they can pretend to dominate/submit to each other to their hearts' content.
Not everyone is into 24/7/365 "real" submission, for many people these are just bedroom games.

I know lots of women like this. He just needs to hang around with hippy/ anarchist types.

I despair of straight dating on the evidence of this letter.

PANIC loves sex and he wants to give his prospective gf a good time. He loves taking it up the ass and he's an enthusiastic top, too. I see nothing that suggests he isn't the switch he claims, or that the way he wants to be a switch is wreathed in male entitlement. None of the things he likes are conceivably extreme to me--getting pegged; dominating; hairy armpits, for heaven's sake. He's wondering whether he's gay because he likes them ... he's not gay. He even suggests that straight, conventional-appearing women under 30 with hairy pits are in the minority. I don't date this demographic. Can it be that what PANIC says is right???

I think that part of PANIC's issue has to do with ambivalence about adopting the social identity of a kinkster. He looks conservative (this does not mean he is innately conservative or cautious, or is politically conservative or Republican) and has to look like this, to some degree, for his job. I doubt he needs to change; but, clearly, he would do better to put his toe in the water of the kink world, to be upfront about e.g. wanting to be pegged. It would be better if he got into relationships with people he was in some way culturally unlike--but who were into pegging--than if he kept opening up about what he wanted after three months, only to find his partners can't cater to him and ending the relationship. This second way wastes his and her time, and is cavalier about the feelings a more straight-laced woman could come to have in three months--if not about his own. It would seem to me that Dan is right, and that how he goes about meeting a more sex-compatible partner is by broadcasting his kinks and being on Fetlife, as well as other dating sites.

* or on dating sites. Yes, Fetlife is not a dating site. There have to be safe spaces and meetups that are sex-positive and sex-themed without having a dating raison d'etre.

Oh Harriet.. yes. Hairy bodies on women have been out of fashion since, I don't know. I think I shaved my legs once in the seventies. Armpits a few more times. Then I dropped out to have kids. Shit, is that why I was so fertile. I never bloody shaved.
Look this boy is being a drama queen. Get on FetLife and as Erica suggested, get to a munch, and meet his fellow kinksters. Ffs, every variety seems to be catered for in the groups there.
A conservative, late twenties , professional.. there will be women out there who will play with him. And waiting a month before telling gf's of his kinks is a waste of everyone's time.

PANIC is right that he's going about this all wrong.
If these preferences are such a dealbreaker that he breaks up with any woman who won't accommodate them, one or two months into a relationship is definitely too late to reveal them. (Put yourself in their place: "Dear Dan, I met an attractive, professional man on Tinder. Things were going great, then he asked me whether I was interested in pegging and to stop shaving my legs. When I said I wasn't interested, he dumped me." Not the way you'd want to be treated, I'd imagine?)

Yes, if you want a woman who doesn't shave, you need to look for a woman who doesn't shave. Expecting a woman to stop shaving in order to meet your preference is just as patriarchal expecting her to shave to please (other) men. We make our body hair decisions for ourselves, thank you.

No, you're not queer; you're straight and kinky. There are women out there who share your interests. Yes, you should get a Fetlife profile. Take down that Tinder profile, unless you're willing to uncloset yourself about your dealbreaking kinks before or on your first meeting. Buy some leather trousers and start going to fetish clubs. Fetlife is a good way to connect with people going to the same events, even on a platonic level, so you won't get there, know no one, and feel awkward.

(Not sure why Dan crossed out "Fetlife" in his answer, but he's right about not fetishising trans women for this purpose. Cis or trans, you need to treat your partners like people -- and that includes being open to exploring their kinks too, if they have kinks that aren't identical to yours.)

Harriet @11: PANIC isn't wondering whether he's gay. He's wondering whether he's queer. Part of the LGBTQIA+ umbrella. (I still vote the answer is no.)
And yes, women with hairy pits are the exception, not the rule.

Re hairiness: perhaps he should move further north, if he would be willing to settle for part of the year hairiness? I haven’t shaved since August, probably won’t again until June. Not atypical (for once) in my neck of the woods.

@9: “What does it matter if the submission if "fake" from your point of view?“

It matters from his. He has very specific needs and she has to accommodate all of his, apparently. She needs to be dominant when he wants it, submissive when he wants it as well. Switches are rare-r in that scene and I could picture him pouting if she’s not in the same position as him.

It's cool that Dan notes Fetlife isn't a kink dating site... But what are the actual kink dating sites? That info would be helpful.

@18: I don’t think there are any, really?

Is AdultFriendFinder still a thing?

Fetlife isn't JUST a kink dating site. There are groups for people seeking partners. It's bad form to just browse profiles and message looking for dates/hookups/play, but if you join a group for that purpose, they are fair game.

@1 “True submission” sounds fine, with informed consent, for those who want it, but why would there be something wrong with wanting to “only” play at sub/dom?

Why wouldn’t there be people who’d want to cater to “fake” submission, even without pay, or even prefer that to partnering with “real” submissives? Volunteer service tops are a thing, and so are tops who don’t want to genuinely override their partners’ wishes.

As for LW, why wouldn’t someone who wants to do CNC as a top be a switch if they also want to be topped by their partners?

For that matter, what would be wrong about a top wanting to be in a sub’s place, or vice versa? Couldn’t switching roles and perspectives with partners make for better players all round?

@13. Lava. I don't think he's being a drama queen. The women who look like the women he expects to date--conventionally-presented, well-scrubbed-up young professionals--are not into what he likes. His relationships are falling through with them. But he wasn't raised a nonconformist in terms of ethos or look. He doesn't easily gravitate towards any kind of subculture or underground.

Collectively people have given him the right advice--to find a better scene and to give a more upfront ideas of his tastes on dating profiles. It may be hard for him; but he's been given encouragement to make these changes. I can believe he's in a state of genuine perplexity and on the cusp of a difficult change.

@15. Bi. You're right that he said 'queer' and would have meant 'queer'. I also agree that liking getting pegged as one of many activities engaged in by a cis het couple doesn't make you queer. So you're right all round!

I find the polarization of our political and socio-psycho-sexual cultures (especially among young people!) pretty dispiriting.

Harriet @22: "So you're right all round!"
Thanks! Doesn't happen often, or at least isn't acknowledged often ;)

Another thought I had about PANIC's reasoning behind liking unshaved women, or one of his reasons, was that to him it signifies "a rejection of societal norms." He, by contrast, describes himself as "conservative." If what PANIC wants is a rebel, why isn't he looking to date, for instance, punk chicks? The obvious answer is that he can't take a punk home to meet Mom and Dad, but Mom and Dad will never see his partner's hairy legs. My interpretation is that he, himself, wants to rebel, but feels he cannot, at least publicly. Submitting to a woman, particularly being penetrated by a woman, is a very private rebellion against gender norms. So perhaps PANIC is onto something when he wonders whether he should "change his style." Perhaps if he can find the courage to "reject social norms," he won't have such a need to fetishise women who do this for him.

@23: “Perhaps if he can find the courage to "reject social norms," he won't have such a need to fetishise women who do this for him.”

Like all the Republican kinksters/swingers in Florida, he wants sex and fashion, not a powerful woman. All the trappings, but someone who won’t challenge him.

RegisteredEuropean @9
"What does it matter if the submission if "fake" from your point of view?"

Most people who dom aren't service doms. That's why people pay pro dommes, because not many actual doms want to be fetish-delivery services. And the people who do enjoy service domming still need to feel that their partner is invested in their happiness too. That's what feels missing here.

StrangerMyself @21
"why would there be something wrong with wanting to “only” play at sub/dom?"

There's nothing wrong with that.

"Why wouldn’t there be people who’d want to cater to “fake” submission, even without pay...Volunteer service tops are a thing"

Very few people *only* want to cater to their partner's desires, and most of them are looking for a dedicated dominant partner. Most people want give and take. I don't see any awareness in this letter that he would cheerfully do things for his partner; he sounds like a do-me bottom. Very few people enjoy dating a do-me bottom.

It's as if he posted "I really enjoy getting blow jobs and receiving massages, but I have such a hard time finding partners who get off on giving me blow jobs and giving me massages. Even if they do at first, they lose interest in delivering bjs and massages, and so I break up with them. How do I find someone who shares my preferences?"

@23. Bi. He's rebelled quite a bit already. His family are presumably Republican voters and he's not.

What you say about fetishizing his gf's nonconformity because he can't bring himself to stick out may be correct. But I might have the opposite (or a different) instinct. It should be possible to wear a suit and tie and be a professional consultant with its saying nothing about your sexual activities or lifestyle. This person should be allowed, in our minds and as far as we're interested, perhaps to be vanilla, perhaps to be kinky. Hell, support for a lifesaving safety net assumed, I think it should be possible to be a white-collar professional fiscal Republican and it not imply anything about sexuality. We're fraying at our civics in splitting into two immediately recognizable, mutually incomprehending tribes.

Harriet @27: Voting Democrat isn't "rebelling," it's thinking for himself -- unless he's actively calling out his Republican family members on their awfulness, which I didn't get the sense he is.

I am well aware that many people are conservative in the streets, kinky in the sheets. It was just PANIC's mentioning his attraction to women who "reject societal norms" that made me think that perhaps he himself is not entirely comfortable with these two sides of himself.

@25 EricaP, certainly people who are only interested in what their partners can do for them, but not what they can do for their partners, are an issue, but I don’t see how that would be kink-specific, or dom/sub-specific.

Also, I’ve seen any number of people complain about “do-me bottoms”, but there’s nothing wrong with knowing what you want from tops, and what you don’t. I’d worry about any tops who were put off by that. And more still by any tops who were into limitless “serve me”, which there is worryingly not much complaining about.

I’m not saying people can’t be entitled jerks about what they want from below, or that LW couldn’t be one of those, but other things being equal, the damage a toxic person can do from above is way beyond. And the default to binary top/bottom isn’t necessarily that helpful, either.

If it matters, that’s coming from a switch perspective.

@29 I guess I read the LW as an entitled jerk from the tone of his letter, and you don't.

Oh, he might well be. But I’d say his having limits as a sub tells less in that direction than the fact he seems to only be into CNC from the top.

@29: “certainly people who are only interested in what their partners can do for them, but not what they can do for their partners, are an issue, but I don’t see how that would be kink-specific, or dom/sub-specific”

The question was kink specific, thus his problems and solution(s) are.

@32 Undead, I was initially responding to the kink-specific issue of whether someone who wants to be dominated sometimes, some ways, like LW, can be faulted for not being a “true” submissive.

Maybe the LW is a terrible entitled person, but if so, that’s down to lack of consideration for others, not from failing to live up to some supposed “true sub” standard that may not have much to do with their actual kink, especially as a switch.

/Done.

There are a lot of shades of submission, but someone who wants to control their "dominant" partner's body and behavior is going to have more trouble finding a partner. That's why pro doms exist - to meet that common desire for someone who will dom in exactly the way the sub wants without expressing any desires of their own

@34 EricaP, that’s...really not my experience: I’ve seen people with all sorts of highly specific interests find willing playmates and longer relationships, as long as they were clear and looked for people with matching interests.

I’m not sure if we’re talking at cross-purposes here, though. If you’re talking about people who are into lifestyle, 24/7 d/s, with no soft or hard limits other than those the dom allows, that’s a different matter.

Certainly LW seems unlikely to fit in there, especially if he’s looking for a partner he can switch roles with rather than some to sub to and some to dom. But d/s lifestylers are not the whole scene.

Tl;dr, LW just needs to find his level and exercise normal consideration for what others want.

And in the interest of owning my own triggers and not dragging this on, I will bow out definitively from this thread now.

"LW just needs to find his level and exercise normal consideration for what others want"

Agreed.

@18 I have not been on it in a few years, so I am not sure that it's still out there, but I previously used the kink dating app Ticklr. I live in a very large major city, and at the time the dating pool on the app wasn't huge. BUT it was a well made app that resulted in some great connections for me.