Re: The Talk comment 2:

My twin brother was molested when we were about nine. I think one of the things that helped him get past it was that (a) he felt he could go straight to our parents and tell them, (b) he was believed, and (c) they took him to the police and the guy went to jail.

So yeah, I’d second making sure your kids know boundaries and also feel safe about coming to you.

I would not trust any ovulation spit test. Sperm hangs around in the uterus for a few days after sex, so you can have sex before ovulation, ovulate, and still become pregnant.

As a normal ordinary boring, non-activist bi person, I was sure that the description of bisexuality as a kink was just a mistake, but I still appreciated Dan's correction. So thanks Dan, even us sane people who have never once thought you were biphobic appreciate it.
Also, one of the things I'm very very grateful for in my LTR is that I've been out to my partner since the very beginning. I can't imagine trying to keep a secret like that about who I am.

The older character in Call Me By Your Name may have been 24, but the actor is 31, and looks it. The younger actor wasn't 17, but looks very young. That may be why some people are recoiling from the on-screen romance. Their intuition is telling them that the age difference is too great.

Personally I think May-December romances can be fine if the camp-site rule is observed by the older, and the younger is really-truly into it. I don't have a problem with that fictional relationship or the movie.

However, I was put off by the critic's rapture about this movie, without them grappling with the fact that this was very close to a Roy Moore situation. I'm 100% sure there would have been a lot more pushback had the younger character been a girl, with a 31 year old man! Keep in mind I'm not criticizing the movie. I think it is fine to make art about all sorts of things, even uncomfortable things. Even the depicted relationship is fine, the younger character clearly wanted the relationship, and the older was sensitive.

But so many critics, and generally people on the left, just embraced it in a cheer-leaderly way, without articulating why the depicted relationship is any more defensible than Roy Moore's relationships. Dana Stevens of Slate, whom I respect and like as a person and as a critic, waved away all questions about the propriety of the relationship by saying "the age of consent in Italy is 16". Well, what a terrible defense! God knows what the age of consent is in Alabama, but it really doesn't matter, what Roy Moore did is wrong.

Another The Talk comment (and a delayed response to all those commenters on the original column who said 8 is too young for "the talk"): I was raped by my neighbor when I was 7 (he was 12). Thanks to my hippie parents, I had an age-appropriate understanding of sex and sexual abuse. Still, I felt so much shame about what happened that it took me months to tell them. We went to court and he was convicted and sent to a juvenile detention facility. My memories of that period aren't particularly happy, but it would have been orders of magnitude worse if I hadn't been taught that people trying to secretly touch you in your swimsuit areas is wrong (but not your fault).

Eight is absolutely old enough for "the talk". It's an ongoing conversation, of course, but you should be talking to your kids about sex and abuse as soon as they're old enough to be alone with other people. Absolutely by the time they're in school.

Problem with fertility awareness as birth control is that once you're ovulating it may be too late. The reproductive system paves the way for sperm to survive well within it days before the actual ovulation. In the right environment, sperm can live up to 7 days. Which means that by the time you are ovulating, there is still a chance you could become pregnant from sex you had 3-5 days ago.

Well sure eight is old enough to be victimized, but so is six, or four, or two. There is no age young enough to be safe from predators. There is no way to educate them ahead of any possible threat of assault, and knowledge won't necessarily protect them. I agreed with the many commenters who thought eight might be too young for an exhaustive sex primer, but maturity levels vary, and certainly much information should have been given by then. Know your own kids and keep the communication lines open.

I'm not sure anyone disagrees that eight yr olds need to learn about safety around their bodies and general discussions about sex and where babies come from.
Telling an eight yr old that the sound he just heard was mummy having an orgasm is a different story.

The problem with fertility awareness is not that you are fertile in the days before you ovulate. That's part of what is taught and understood about the method. The problem is that in order for fertility awareness to work, you have to rely on your brain to talk you out of having sex at the wrong time. And the 'wrong time' is precisely when all of your hormones are shouting at you to HAVE SEX. In a contest between your logical brain and your lizard brain, the lizard brain usually wins.

Talking from experience here, with a kid to prove it.

I'm a bit tired of people getting all squicky over 17-year-olds having sex with people at all older. I'm not sure which implication I like least: that at 17, you can't make informed choices about what you want, or that at 24, you're adult enough that you shouldn't be attracted to 17-year-olds. Both seem exaggerated to me. Sure, we were all stupid at 17. Weren't we all stupid at 24, too? The truth is there's a whole lot of variation person-to-person; some 17-year-olds are just as emotionally competent as your average 25-year-old (and vice-versa). I get that everyone wants to be really careful dancing around age-of-consent laws now, and that's fine, I suppose, but pretending that people go from being totally too immature for sex (under 18) to *ping* perfectly mature and ready (when they turn 18) is just silly.

(Eh; I realize I'm exaggerating for effect, myself, the arguments being made, but that's how they sometimes feel to me.)

Wtf Dan? I came back on to respond to The Last Comment's second comment.. after their first was deleted.. and their second one is now gone.

Yeah, both of my comments were deleted. You can tell because of the gap between comments 9 and 10. I don't think I was being unreasonable or mean, so I guess this is just a subject I'm not supposed to talk about. I don't know who does the moderation around here so I'm not sure if there's someone I can contact to ask about this. I don't recall the comments here being heavily moderated before so I'm confused and kind of insulted.

Also even without being entirely certain of what I did wrong, I am sorry if I crossed the line. I don't want to and I enjoy the ability to write comments here.

@14 i think it's more likely a weird tech glitch. As best I can tell, comments have only ever been removed for spam or egregious content.

I probably said something that was incorrect. Or maybe it was a glitch. I just watched Black Mirror so I know technology is bad now.

Seconding the caution about fertility awareness. Plus there's a vocal faction who are evangelical about it in spite of its bad record. I'm hope the commenter was legit having great success, but some people just want other people not to use 'artificial' or ungodly methods no matter what the consequences.

GoodOmens @3: Ditto. I read it as they've incorporated his bisexuality as a kink into their opposite-sex relationship, through fantasy and dirty talk. In that context the word "kink" is fine. But yes, thanks for the support, Dan!

Winter @9/others on the ovulation thread: I'd amend Luna's advice from "you can avoid having sex during those couple of days" to "you can use condoms during those couple of days." And, as a few of you have astutely noted, the few days before, if your cycle is at all predictable. The lizard brain gets what it wants, and everyone's a winner.

I'm not sure how to say this because I'm sure it will be interpreted as victim blaming, but here goes-- If the 9 year old rape victim knew everything about sex and consent, he still could have been raped. This is the same as any adult victim. They have lots of knowledge, likely sexual experience too, but they're raped anyway. That's why they're called victims. More information and communication might have helped him tell trusted adults immediately so there wouldn't have been the added layer of horror that comes with secrecy and shame, but the initial crime could have happened anyway.

As for the 9 year old victim still being able to be a victim even if he'd known - that's true to a degree. I don't blame him and I don't think you do, either. But he agreed to things he didn't want to do under pressure and coercion from an older, much larger teen. I know when I was 18, with very little sexual education and none beyond basic biology, my first sexual experiences were very coerced (as were many of my later ones, with the same man). I did things because my partner insisted they were normal and I'd like them if I did them enough, or that it was something appropriate to be allowed as a cost of the relationship even if I didn't like them. With no frame of reference, it is difficult to stand up for yourself. It's like going to a car dealership and getting talked into paying three times what you could have paid had you known there were other options. If you are prevented from doing any research (as we do when we restrict sex ed and talking about it from people), then you can't advocate for yourself in the moment against someone very motivated to talk you into things.

Once a person starts getting a wider knowledge base on a subject, then you can make better decisions for yourself, whether it's buying cars or deciding what to consent to in relation to your own body. I think an 8 year old needs to absolutely know that mommy and daddy occasionally have sex, it's private between them, and that was what the sound was. Apologize for being too loud and keep it down next time. The same as you would if you woke the kid yelling in glee after winning a game of UNO.

Fichu @21: I don't think anyone is claiming that knowing about sex would have enabled an eight-year-old to fend off an older teenage rapist. I think the argument is that an eight-year-old rape victim who at least knew what rape was would have understood what was going on and been better equipped to deal with his emotions, whom to tell, etc.

I was a licensed foster parent. During that extensive training they said the number one way to prevent sexual abuse is to educate the child about it.

That is true for a few reasons:
1. The child will report inappropriate behavior right away so it won't reoccur over a period of time.
2. The child will tell the Rapist "NO!" and run away when the delusional rapist is asking for "consent" to do things.
3. The child will recognize grooming behaviors and tell an adult about it so that they can be protected from that person before it goes any further
4. And finally, the creepiest of all: a child perpetrator is told that what they are considering doing is wrong and that they shouldn't do it. In some instances children prey on other children because they themselves were victims, never got the help they needed, and were not aware that what they desired doing was wrong. Tragically, this is especially true in the foster care child population.

I liken this information to defensive driving, you still might get in a car accident, but they still teach defensive driving in driver's education. It isn't victim blaming, it is giving the child the tools they need to protect themselves.

Gamebird, BiDan, and Thora-- Thanks for the clarifications. What you say makes sense. I guess I have 2 different categories in my mind and saw them being confused in the earlier letter on what to tell an 8 year old who overhears his mother's moaning orgasms. In one category, there's where babies come from, privacy about sexual matters, body changes at puberty, sex as a positive and enjoyable thing. In the other category, there's fending off rapists, telling someone whenever you're hurt or upset, not keeping bad secrets, standing up for oneself in any uncomfortable situation, recognizing coercion, etc. While there's surely overlap between the two, I see some sense in treating them separately.

The age of the actor, versus the age of the character, is an unconsidered question. How many old Hollywood films had 'leading lady' roles played by teenage girls?

That aside, how are 17 year olds, or 25 year olds supposed to grow into their own sexual identities and desires, have their own feelings, and be in charge of their own actions?

We still seem to accept, and reinforce, the notion that someone else is supposed to 'initiate' or 'awaken' the naive youth. Bad plan.

@23 and @24: Yes yes yes! Obviously, knowing about sex and sexual abuse didn't prevent 7-year-old me from being raped. But having that knowledge turned an experience that could have fucked me up for life to an experience that was shitty, but not hugely damaging. It also resulted in an abuser (who assaulted other young kids in the neighborhood) being removed and (hopefully) getting the help he needed.

M? Trees - Here OS and SS aren't comparable. 17 and about 24 or so was very common at one time, probably more common than 17 and 17 back when there weren't out 17-year-olds. My contemporaries who had passable-looking fake IDs went to bars and sought partners slightly out of their social circle/age range (the drinking age was still 18).

Fichu @25: That is a good point. Children need to learn about bodily autonomy and consent to physical contact much younger than they need to learn about the reproductive and pleasurable aspects of sex.

My heart goes out to the LW's son who at 8 got anally raped by a teenager, and his mother and sister--who learned about it later being bragged about at their school! I was ruthlessly bullied at my small rural school. Even now, when I feel I'm over my past hurts and abuses, it's awful what can still resurface.