Savage Love Letter of the Day: This Twin-Fetish Thing

Comments

1
"This girl says she wants to see my brother and me kiss, but I don't want to do that if it crosses the incest line"

Read: I actually have no qualms whatsoever about kissing my twin brother unless there's a chance people will judge me for it.

I'm so glad I'm not 21 anymore.
2
UP-DATE! UP-DATE! UP-DATE!

Ultimately no one else can tell you where to draw your personal incest line, but I'd definitely err on the side of not doing anything that's very likely to result in a "let us never speak of this again" edict.

On another note, I just considered (as a thought experiment) the idea of having a threesome with my own sibling, and now I feel gross.
3
Ew. Ew. Ew.

I am in most cases okay with whatever consenting adults want to do together, and I don't advocate that these guys be arrested or anything, but this is gross. And unless you subscribe to the Bill Clinton definition of sexual relations, it's incest. Granted, the very good reasons for the incest taboo don't apply here (genetic abnormalities in offspring) but still....Ew.
PS - one of my college classmates claimed to be one of the Doublemint twins. She lied. I think being a twin can (not always! just often!) mess with your head.
4
@2 IKR! I think of my brother (and my 2 half brothers) and start to gag. And let's not even bring up the subject of fathers....
5
Nope
6
The grossest part of that letter was "fuck-me eyes." How very... Porkies.
7
How common is it?

Common.

Where's the incest line? Let me put it this way: If the only thing stopping you is that idea that it's over the line; it's not over the line - just don't get your brother pregnant.
8
As an only-child I see no problem with this. For added excitement, make a "brothers" themed mixtape and do it in a dance studio with mirrored walls.
9
I'm with Dan on thinking that incest is considering the possibility of having an orgasm when someone who bears a resemblance to a brother or sister might be naked under their clothes in the same hemisphere ... but that's just me.

The thing that disgusts me is Ms. Hot Great Body. She wants what she wants and doesn't care who she flattens when she wants it. The argument that she was just asking doesn't hold any weight with me. It's like when the supervisor at the Department of Education and EEOC continuously makes sexual remarks and asks his subordinate out socially over and over, then denies that it happened or says he was merely asking.

Maybe Ms. Hot Great Body is merely asking, but she's asking in a context where she has everything to gain and the Mr ANTs have everything to lose. What if the sexual encounter goes wrong. Many do. These guys can't just move into different social sets and not speak of it if they run into each other again after many years. This is something that would be in the back of their minds at every family dinner forever after. It's something they'll be thinking about when they're best mans at each other's weddings. They're risking this for the possibility of some hot sex? They can get that elsewhere.
10
I asked my boyfriend once if he'd have a threesom with me and his brother. He said no :(
11
It doesn't seem like incest to me, I mean I wouldn't kiss my own brother, but if I had a twin sister...heck, double our pleasure too if we were just hooking up with guys together.
12
@2: "I'd definitely err on the side of not doing anything that's very likely to result in a 'let us never speak of this again' edict."

Perfect.
13
Why do I think that someone interested in having a threesome with identical twins isn’t going to stop at wanting to see them kissing? Ms. Hotbody might be asking to that now, but my guess she’s going to ask for mutual hand jobs or blow jobs once their clothes come off, and it’s a bit harder to walk away.

As for the LW, there are undoubtedly more hot women interested in sex with twins than twins interested in having a threesome. Given that supply and demand balance, you should be able to set the ground rules for your lucky thirds.

Lastly, I have met one set of identical twins though whose relationship was unusually close, even for identical twins, and somewhat troubled, which made me wonder if there had not at some point been a sexual dimension to their relationship.
14
I'm with @9 @13

She's not going to want them just to kiss each other.
15
...why would kissing your brother not be incestuous?

I'm not saying don't, but come on.
16
There were identical twin brothers in my class in elementary school. Somehow all the girls had crushes on the one with slightly squintier eyes.

If I remember correctly, the main urge of a crush at that age was to run up behind them, squeal, then run away when they turned around. There was no urge to do this with both of them at the same time.
17
Ok, ANT, you do realize that should you and your twin take up this option with hot girl, you and your twin will spend a lot of time seeing each other TOTES NAKED, and chances are very good that there will be lots of inadvertent touching and rubbing of your various body parts - not just your bits rubbing hers, but your bits rubbing your brother's.

Think about the day after, the next family dinner with mummy and daddy and gramps, your next family vacation etc., are you going to start gagging, and having uncontrollable urges to put hundreds of miles between yourself and your brother, when certain flashbacks pop into your head?

There are lots of hot girls everywhere who don't have a twin fetish. Either way, make sure both of you cover it up. Safe sex, yo!
18
I remember this letter! I have always really liked the sentiment in this quote, and think of it on a regular basis: 'It's amazing how quickly "confusion and disgust" at a proposed position/kink/sibling-combo-platter morphs into "comprehension and desire" when someone with come-fuck-me eyes/tits/asscheeks, etc., does the propositioning.' SO true :)
19
On the face of it, two (presumably) straight twin brothers having a threesome doesn't seem too different from any other two-straight-men-and-a-woman threesomes. In both cases, the guys want to keep their interaction with each other to a minimum, right? Sublime makes a good point @13 about Hot Girl's fantasies not being limited to seeing them kiss. If they do do this, they'll need to set clear boundaries regarding the nature of the threesome -- ie, it's MFM not MMF.

I too am wondering whether they went ahead with it, and whether they are still speaking to each other 10 years after the fact.
20
IF?
"IF it crosses the incest line"?

I wonder if this letter was real.
21
I've got it. ANT tells Ms. Hot that he and his brother aren't comfortable having sex with her at the same time and offers a compromise. First he'll go in and have sex with her, then his brother will. It will be more like a relay so they're both performing, just not at the same moment. Then the same brother has sex with her twice.
22
@17/iseult: “Ok, ANT, you do realize that should you and your twin take up this option with hot girl, you and your twin will spend a lot of time seeing each other TOTES NAKED.”

I doubt that any twins are going to be dissuaded by an argument that starts thusly. Most twins, from conception through high school share a room together, and then there are years of bath time together as well. So the idea of seeing their twin naked isn’t any psychological barrier to having a threesome. In that respect, twins are different from typical siblings.
23
My fraternal twin looks nothing like me. Still not interested.

Also, even though we are both guys, I’ve never seen him naked post-puberty — and it will stay that way. We even get separate hotel rooms when we travel together.
24
Just how often does this 'hot girl' get to act out her enthusiasm? I have some serious doubt about the whole letter. That the LW doesn't seem to have much visceral reaction to the idea of kissing his brother in order to turn her on seems mighty shaky to me.

But I don't know what being a twin feels like. I've only been slightly acquainted with one such pair.
25
@21 porn aside, from what I gather this is how most threesomes end up going. Over half of the threesomes my friends have told me about ended with "someone got bored".
26
Dan, can you please comment on the sex-phobic anti-youth porn panic article the New York Times published two days ago?
27
Condoms! If she gets pregnant, no paternity test will be able to tell who is the father!
28
You might want to think about not misusing the term "fetish". You're applying it to things that are rather common and normal. It might entice more people to click, and that is because people know that fetishes are extreme and think they are shameful. So then people feel slut-shamed when they read that their little desire is ONE OF THOSE FETISH THINGS. Thanks.
29
Fresh @27: Hah! Good point.

Dawson @28: Same. The twin thing is a "fantasy," not a fetish.
30
So glad I'm bisexual! I've never had a boring threesome!
31
The two best pieces of advice in here are... stay on the safe side of anything that might lead you and your twin to say 'let's never speak of this again,' and that you and your twin as the 'in demand' party control the circumstances... i.e. she wants you to kiss... too fucking bad, this is what we're offering, no twin on twin action, take it or leave it (or wherever your boundary is, you don't have to compromise & you shouldn't).

I'd like to add that if you and your twin have the type of relationship where you enjoy breaking rules together & then high 5ing it, then you should (have) go(ne) for it. If not, walk away.
32
Fichu @9: Um, no, there's something very different about a work superior hitting on you and someone hitting on you at a college "booze and cooze" party. One involves a violation of power and authority, and one involves a place where sexual overtures are appropriate.
33
TS @32: Re-reading Fichu's comment, I have to agree with TS. If the brothers agree that they have "everything to lose," they can say no. There will be no career, nor, I'm betting, social repercussions if they decline. This woman isn't trying to "flatten" (?) anybody; she just has a fantasy and met someone capable of fulfilling it. Is she more likely to get a yes because she's hot, sure. But aside from making everyone walk around with bags over their heads, I don't think there's a solution to that. These young men are not powerless. As Iseult @17 says, there are more hot girls in the sea.
34
32, 33-- My comparison wasn't a good one. Thank you for the correction. Let me try to make my point in a different way.

If I like someone and ask him out, and if he doesn't want to go out with me and says no, there was no harm in my asking. If I'd like to engage in a particular sex act, maybe I'd like him to dress up in women's lingerie, and if that's something he finds particularly unappealing, he says no, and there was no harm in my asking. If the question is asked in the context of a long term relationship, it can be asked in trade sort of way. You do this for me, and I'll do something you want in return. The offer may be turned down, but there was no harm in asking.

My point is that sometimes the ask can be so outrageously unbalanced that proposing it egregious in itself. Ms. Hot has suggested that ANT engage in incest, something that left him with confusion and disgust, something that turns the rest of us off in far more than the usual I'm-not-into-that sort of way, and in return, they get to have sex with someone with a great body.

Further, any time anyone is treated in a way that makes it clear they're interchangeable with someone else, there's an implied insult. Granted we all do it to a certain extent sometimes, but identical twins get it more often than others and have reason to be particularly sensitive to it.
35
Ms Fan @30 - Neither have I.

As usual, Mr Savage is wrong in his concluding sentence.
36
Fichu @34: Ms Smoking Hot presumably didn't know before asking that ANT's attitude toward a potential twincest threesome was "confusion and disgust." This was at a party; they're young, and presumably alcohol was involved. Ms Hot was probably flirting with ANT and realised the attraction was mutual (another difference between this situation and your example). Her inhibitions were lowered, and I don't see that her request was phrased in such a way as to intentionally insult the ANT brothers. By your logic, wouldn't any request for a threesome be "insulting"? I also think you're going out on a limb by assuming the ANT brothers would feel insulted; ANT does not imply such a thing. In other words, I still don't see the harm in this particular ask.

Venn @35: You wouldn't believe the flak I took by once suggesting I didn't see how a threesome would be much fun if you were straight. And yet, we now have evidence that more than half of straight people find them boring. I am vindicated.
37
@30: Another example of selection bias at work, I guess.
38
@36: But, also, look at the one in charge of sampling.
39
I agree with Fichu's suggestion @21, except to add that I don't see an issue with both brothers fucking her - on separate occasions, in separate rooms - if they both fancy her. They both get what they want (sexytimes with a hot chick), she kinda gets what she wants (playing out a fantasy of being 'shared' by twin brothers), there's no incest or traumatic memories burned into anyone's brain, and they can all forget about it afterwards. Seems like a pretty obvious low-risk solution.

'Cept I get a feeling that the LW doth protest too much, and was perhaps looking for permission to go ahead with this hot twincestuous threesome, rather than genuine advice. He seems more concerned with being judged for crossing some arbitrary "incest line" than figuring out a way to get it on with Ms Hotbody without involving his brother, which is what he'd be asking about if he was truly squicked out by the idea.
40
twincest=wincest! As long as you're consenting adults. Fingers crossed they share the video.
41
@40: I read that as "twincest=wince-est" and thought, "I couldn't agree more."
Only to realize that we have the opposite reaction!
Actually, I find the scenario that Fichu and Lost Margarita describe to be pretty hot . . .
42
I'm amazed by the people on here who think seeing their siblings naked would scar them emotionally, and that actually touching a sibling's skin or (egad) kissing them would make their heads explode. You posters must have come from some very strange and abusive backgrounds to get that warped about something that's just not a big deal by any objective measure.

Brother / brother and brother / sister and sister / sister kissing, hugging, showering together etc is something that happens fairly often if the siblings are moved to do so. Many of us aren't - but that's more a response to our own relatives, not a general thing. If my relatives were as fun and hot as some of the people I've gotten physical with, it'd be ok. But they're not.

Kissing your brother is fine. What harm can it do? He can't get pregnant, and your other relatives are not involved. I've known twins who had sex together a few times just out of curiosity and hey, it wasn't a big deal in their lives, it was just a fun thing. If anyone in your life is like the seriously damaged people on here who are so horrified by it, just don't tell them you're doing it!
43
I'm amazed by the people on here who think seeing their siblings naked would scar them emotionally, and that actually touching a sibling's skin or (egad) kissing them would make their heads explode. You posters must have come from some very strange and abusive backgrounds to get that warped about something that's just not a big deal by any objective measure.

Brother / brother and brother / sister and sister / sister kissing, hugging, showering together etc is something that happens fairly often if the siblings are moved to do so. Many of us aren't - but that's more a response to our own relatives, not a general thing. If my relatives were as fun and hot as some of the people I've gotten physical with, it'd be ok. But they're not.

Kissing your brother is fine. Having sex with him and a hot woman at the same time is fine. Whatever level of physical interaction you get up to in that three way is fine. What harm can it do? He can't get pregnant, and your other relatives are not involved. I've known twins who had sex together a few times just out of curiosity and hey, it wasn't a big deal in their lives, it was just a fun thing. If anyone in your life is like the seriously damaged people on here who are so horrified by it, just don't tell them you're doing it!
44
Why doesn't he just bring a change of clothes, and fuck her twice?
45
Undead @38: Well yes -- and that's why I've gone ahead and assumed the people he's talking about are straight.

ECarpenter @43/@44: I'm afraid your view is the minority one. I can't imagine kissing either of my sisters, not even the attractive one with the nice body. Most humans are just viscerally squicked by the concept, as these comments illustrate. Most siblings do not continue to bathe together past childhood, and confine their physical affection to hugging. I do agree that if you're in the minority of people who aren't, and your sibling is too, then technically you're consenting adults and it's your business. But yeah, you probably shouldn't go around telling people. Most would not react as positively as Ms Hot Girl.
46
44-Avast

Further, a great deal can be done with mirrors.
47
Bill O'Reily.
48
@43/ECarpenter: “I've known twins who had sex together a few times just out of curiosity.”

Had sex with a third, as Ms. Hotbody proposed to LW, or had sex with each other? And what were the make up of these twins?

And for others, neither Ms. Hotbody (or anyone else interested in specifically having sex with twins) is not going to be satisfied having sex with one and then he other. They want that identical body accessible right then and there.
49
@48 The two sets of twins I know who had sex together a few times were guys. And it wasn't a big deal, once their curiosity was satisfied, they moved on to other erotic territories with other people.

@45 I can't imagine sex-kissing my sister or brother, either, but it's not because of our relationship, it's because of who they are. Nice people, but no, not interesting to me in that way. But just because I don't want to kiss or have sex with my siblings, I'm not also going to hyperventilate and get all horrified if someone else and his or her sibling get more physical. It's just not something that's going to affect me, and I have no reason (or business) getting weird about it.

But then, I also don't get freaked out when I run into evidence that my parents had sex. So what? Good for them. Some people's negative reactions to their parents' sex lives are ridiculous.

I really do think the extreme reactions on here must be the result of some kind of culturally accepted mental abuse. Other animals don't feel it, so it can't be instinct, it has to be taught.
50
@49 - other animals also lick their own butts: a treasure denied to us on account of a prudish and constrictive social morality. And physiology too.
51
@45: Ah, I get what you’re saying.

@43: Conflating a peck on the lips or seeing someone naked with fucking them? C’mon.

“showering together etc is something that happens fairly often if the siblings are moved to do so.”

You live in a world where it’s common for adult siblings to lather each other up?

What porn company do you work for exactly? :p
52
@49: “But then, I also don't get freaked out when I run into evidence that my parents had sex”

How did you come to find out they were siblings?
53
Ah crap, that came off as unfunny and unnecessary. My apologies.
54
ECarpenter @49: Can you point out any "extreme" reaction, "hyperventilating" or "horror" to the concept of other siblings snogging, on this thread? I see a few "ews" regarding the concept of doing one's own siblings, which is the visceral disgust that the overwhelming majority of us experience when picturing ourselves in that scenario. And which is an inbuilt reaction that seems designed to prevent inbreeding, which is possibly not such a danger in animals whose genetics are simpler.
Hmm, perhaps it's you who's overreacting?

Undead @52: Don't apologise. That was hilarious.
55
I have read many brocest and twincest books (in fact, that's a shelf on my Goodreads page)...always males, it seems. There is definitely a market for books where hot young brothers/twins get it on together, with or without a female participant.
56
Bookaday @55: There may be a market for books (the "books" bit should be a clue as to why it's usually male twins... I bet there are plenty of female twins in porn, for the fellas) about hot young twins getting it on, but there's also a huge market for books about serial killers. Doesn't mean it's a good idea to try in real life. Hot Girl should spend (should have spent) the party flirting outrageously with these brothers, then go home and have an epic wank.
57
EC @49
Other animals don't feel it, so it can't be instinct, it has to be taught.

Not so for everyone's favorite hypersexual animal and close cousin to humans, the bonobo, it seems:

sexual interactions among bonobos occur in every possible partner combination regardless of age or gender with the notable exception incest among siblings.

Source: Bonobo sexuality.
58
I agree with RE (or at least with the implication). The "visceral" reaction probably isn't; it's likely to be cultural rather than innate (since there is no such inhibition in any other mammal, so far as I know). Which is not to say it isn't deeply ingrained.

Also I suspect the general commetariat here is a bit pre-primed for "ew!" due to the incest question from last week. If the letters were more spaced out, we might get more "Sure, go for it" responses.
59
ciods @58 in @57 I am implying that the visceral reaction to sibling incest is innate rather than cultural because the inhibition against it exists both in humans and in bonobos.
60
@57 / 59 Is that inhibition of sibling sex universal in all groups of bonobos? Or are there some occasional sibling pairings? Or are the data sufficiently granular to answer those questions?

And are you sure that's not learned behavior among the bonobos in the group which produced that observation? And that it's universal over time, not just majority behavior during a short period of observation?

If you are sure, what makes you sure? I'm not saying it's not true, I'm just wondering if it's a big generalization from a small set of observations.
61
@57 / 59 I couldn't find any answer to my questions on the website you cited. There is just the one mention of "siblings" - there's no info on male-male or female-female vs male-female sibling sex, and no info on siblings from the same year vs siblings from different years, if there actually is suppression of sibling sex and if any distinction exists. I'd think that any evolutionary pressure to not create babies with someone you're so genetically similar to would affect heterosexual pairings more than homosexual ones, and would be based on smells or other biological clues that one is too genetically close to another bonobo. That's why the question about siblings from different years is important - is it a learned thing with your annual cohort, or not, or something else?

Overall, one generalization in one sentence on a web page about one species does not, I think, disprove my assertion that incest does occur in many species without causing consternation in the incestuous animals' social group. I'd like to see more and higher quality information about the bonobos.
62
@RE @59: Oops, reading fail on my part. Nonetheless, my experience with other mammal groups (mostly farm animals) indicates zero disinclination towards incest of any flavor. Of course, none of those cases are genetically as close to us as bonobos. Presumably the more expensive (resource-wise) a given child is, the more beneficial it is to avoid genetically questionable matches, which would explain why it may be no big deal for, say, rabbits, and still be a big deal for humans. Still, I suspect culture. Just my gut.
63
EC & ciods: sure, that Reed College web page is just one relevant data point in the discussion and not meant as the last word. I'm not a primatologist so I don't have much to add.

I do have the book "Bonobo: the forgotten ape" by Frans de Waal and I checked if it has anything to say about incest among bonobos. It does, but only in the context of avoiding pregnancy by close relatives. Two points are mentioned: (1) female bonobos leave the group in which they are born when they become sexuallly mature and only become sexually active in their new group. So they avoid incestuous couplings by migration. (2) male bonobos avoid sex with their mothers.
It follows from point (1) that brother/sister and sister/sister incest will be rare among bonobos because the females join unrelated groups to become sexually active in. That leaves the question about brother/brother incest among bonobos, all the more relevant because of the letter we are replying to. Unfortunately brother/brother incest is not mentioned at all in the book.

In short: reply hazy.
64
@63 Thanks for looking that up. And, since bonobos engage in sexual behavior before they hit puberty too, per the references on the original web page, it sounds like female bonobos leaving the group in which they are born doesn't necessarily mean that they haven't snogged their brothers and sisters when they were younger.

From a practical point of view it's a good thing that the lads may or may not bang their brothers, but they definitely don't bang their mothers, isn't it? And the female bonobos switching groups is excellent. A friend traveling through Europe's countryside 40 years ago remarked that in some isolated villages everyone looked like brothers and sisters, and that some of the inhabitants had obvious genetic problems - they hadn't had a healthy influx of genetic variety for way too many generations.
65
I know three couples of same sex twins (two identical and one fraternal), whom I all met when they were around ANT’s age. None of them is ever particularly surprised at jokes or innuendo about twin threesomes. Plus, I’ve never ran a poll or anything but I’m pretty sure that none of the people I know which would enjoy threesomes would pass at the chance to have one with a pair of attractive twins.
It’s THAT common.

As for the incest issue, this all goes back to the age old question on wether the two Ms in a MFM threesome (or the two Fs in FMF) can be considered as having had sex with each other. If I’m keeping tally of my sexual partners, do I count that girl who was having sex with a guy the same time I was, even though our naughty bits never touched? Do I count her if we kissed? If we went down on the guy together, tongues crossing?
I guess the reason why ANT wishes to avoid incest might also be relevant. If it’s the stigma, I don’t think it matters much: as stated above, people’s fantasies are much more aroused at the prospect of twin threesomes than they are repulsed by them. It would therefore be hypocritical of most to judge twins for having such fantasy-worthy threesomes.
If it’s a religious qualms, I’m pretty sure there’s no mainstream religion that approves of extra marital sex and threesomes, so incest is just the tip of the iceberg there.
If it’s just a personal label think (“I abhor incest but I wouldn’t mind kissing my brother to score a hot girl”), then the problem lies entirely on ANT and it doesn’t matter what the world considers incest but what he labels as such. He should just have the balls to stick to his label: if he ends up kissing his brother, he can’t judge anyone else kissing their sibling.