So... The disappearing into another room doesn't seem too off to me - having dated women with kids, you're looking to your partner to tell you what the guidelines are for how much they even want you interation with their kids. They may, fairly or not, loo to you as a father figure and you may or may not always be in their life. I grew up with a single mom with a string of mostly dogshit boyfriends, and I wouldn't want to put another kid through the yo yo cycle. So the answer to THAT part of the issue, is that your parents need to provide guidance to Melvin on that - even if you're both grown!

I have nothing that exactly qualifies me to give my opinion here, but I'm about to give it anyway, lol. Yes, the LW's dads have a boyfriend who is a complete asswipe...but maybe, just maybe, the boyfriend is indicating to LW's dads in THE most passive-aggressive way possible that he's not looking to add to the family unit. He displays very little inclination to be familiar, friendly, or even civil to the LW and LW's brother. Maybe Marvin feels that this is the "price of admission" into the relationship, but it doesn't sound like he's willing or maybe even able to pay it, he's just trying to jump the fence and enjoy the rides free of charge, so to speak.

Kudos to LW for being understanding and trying to be supportive of their dads' new found relationship, but it sounds like this family dynamic is NOT what Marvin signed up for. Dads need to talk to Marvin and establish boundaries--it's completely disrespectful of him to cut into their private phone calls, ESPECIALLY when he himself is making no real effort to get to know their kids. It actually sounds like he's jealous of the time dads spend with the kids, perhaps that's why he's childishly sabotaging it and making everyone feel uncomfortable and unwelcome.

As for telling your brother he's just his dad's type? Ick!

LW, you really need to calmly but firmly address this manner in the way Dan suggests. If Marvin feels he needs more time and attention, that's understandable. Being a third can be rough enough in the beginning--perhaps with you two in the picture, it's making him feel like he's fifth priority--but that does NOT give him the right to play time-manager between you two and your dads. Let him tantrum and continue to bond with your dads with or without him...he'll either learn to cope, or he'll leave.

(...On a completely unrelated note--DAAAANNN... I had no idea you'd be coming HERE!! I wish I'd had a heads-up, I gotta work, and I'm probably gonna miss half your show. So if you see anyone leaving in between, just, y'know, don't send the karma police after me, lol.)

First, I wonder about the relative ages of LW, The Dads, and Melvin. I wonder if LW is in her mid-20s, the Dads are in their early 50s, and Melvin is an immature early 30-something, who doesn’t know how to interact (or does not want to interact) with his boyfriends’ children who are nearly his age.

Second, I wonder what is the dynamic between the Dads and Melvin. I’m thinking that perhaps there is some Daddies/little boy play going on in this relationship. Melvin is a bratty boy to the older, wiser Dads, who are indulgent of his bad behavior / immaturity. The Dads might get off on being the nurturing Dads that Melvin didn’t have growing up. If so, some of this is correctable, so long as the Dads lay down the law in so far as it concerns Melvin’s behavior toward their children.

In any event, LW and her brother need to speak up as Dan suggested, and they can try arranging times to be together with their Dads when Melvin isn’t around or invited.

@ number 3- I was too. Melvin sounds insecure and a bit jealous of the attention and closeness. They all need to sit down and have a talk. Melvin needs to accept the kids and realize that this is huge part of their lives. I also wonder if Melvin wants to be taken care of, my gut says that he might be looking for sugar daddies as he is acting like a spoiled brat.

I ment and* and he is acting like a spoiled brat.

While Dan’s answer is a good one I wonder about the letter's is authenticity. Landline issue aside, a two-man couple gets to adopt two kids some twenty years ago is another.

SublimeAfterglow @ 3, wonder what made you assume LW is a woman. I read it as gender-neutral, but assumed it to be a man following my conspiracy theories. My initial assumption is that whoever wrote this letter wanted to tell the world that men couples cannot be trusted to have children since their decadent sex life will always be their number one priority. And the fact that their adopted son has a boyfriend is another proof that children adopted by gay couples will always grow gay

Regardless of authenticity, Sportlandia @ 1 makes some valid points as to the situation at hand.

@6, there's a reference in the letter to the LW being a "she" - Melvin refers to her as a she, and she quotes him. Check again.

@6: Gay marriage was legal in MA since 2004, which is 14 years ago. Also, many people who lived in the same house for the past twenty years have land lines (my MIL does). AND if you live in relatively rural parts of New England, cellphone reception is shit, so having a landline is a must. Nothing in this letter strikes me as improbable.

Melvin must be *great* in bed.

btmom- while it’s possible that my conspiracy inclinations take over, I read “is she still talking” as another snarky remarks in regards to people they talked about in that specific conversation, along the line with “you need more friends.”

Kusanagi- LW and brother were adopted at birth and we assume them to be in their 20’s.

@9:
I'd second that, that usually causes sensible people to defend bastard behavior.

@3 Sublime...those were my thoughts too. Sounds like LW's dads were good, loving parents. Depending on how long LW and her brother have been out of the house, the dads may be enjoying a new play partner whose rough history may be easing some empty nest twinges as well. It's plausible, especially if Melvin is youngish.

Nevertheless, Melvin sounds like a rock-pated cretin and will probably sabotage this situation all on his own. I urge LW to remain close to her dads and don't allow Melvin to drive a wedge between them. Being a sweet, patient immovable object will throw his more vile nonsense into sharp relief.

I've got a landline Dan, how else would telemarketers find me?
CMD @6, Dan said daughter in his response. Think that's a big clue it's a woman writing the letter.

Dan also called her a grown- ass woman.

Great advice, Dan.
I also have a landline. I'm on call for medical stuff and need a back-up number.
But, telemarketers only call my cell.

Anyone who tries to interfere with the relationship between a parent(s) and their children is a gold-plated asshole. End of story. You’re old enough to call him on it when it happens... “What a shitty thing to say, Melvin. My Dads never would have put up with that crap from me, you must have a good-plated Dick for them to put up with you.”

So many possible explanations, but none amount to an excuse.

myself @ 10 “it’s possible that my conspiracy inclinations take over”

Lava @ 13 grwon-ass woman indeed.
One has to read carefully till the end.

“What a shitty thing to say, Melvin. My Dads never would have put up with that crap from me, you must have a good-plated Dick for them to put up with you.”

BINGO, DonnyKlicious .

The fuck is wrong with Melvin?

I have a landline. *Everybody* I know irl has a landline (how else would you get broadband in cable-lacking areas or if you don't want tv service?). Now that the main issue is out of the way, the problem:

Melvin is behaving like an asshole, whether through inappropriate extending of bratty play, some form of social dysfunction, confusion at the extant family structure or jealousy. It doesn't matter what it is, he needs to be civil to LW and her brother and they should definitely bring it up with the dads.

What pollyc said in 3 also seems quite possible: he's more than freaked out and perhaps worried that he might be expected to become a part of the whole family. Still, extremely immature behaviour unless he's about 12 (and we'd probably hear if he was) that needs to be dealt with.

Having said all that... LW and her brother are grownups. The dads, to some extent, discharged their emotional and social obligations towards them. They are well past the stage when they could be expected to prioritise their children over their pleasures or romantic interests. Who they date or fuck or "daddy" is totally their own business. Melvin owes LW and her brother a basic civility -- but nothing else.

My favourite idea is to arrange times when LW and her brother can meet the dads without Melvin's presence.

@2. pollyc. I agree that Melvin is jealous. He's insecure--and being more immature about this insecurity than the LW.

Insecurity and vulnerability is the portion of being a child--a child of any age. The LW is admirably mature about her parents dating this jerk but it's hard for her to put away her feelings of hurt. She shouldn't try. Perhaps she could say something like, 'I'm very concerned that your new relationship with Melvin is going to come between us'. And when her parents assure her that it won't, as is likely, to press them on what they are going to do to protect her from his sniping and off-color remarks, and how they propose to make time to see her and her brother without him in the picture.

Maybe the 'dads' have never dated a third before and lack the ground-rules to negotiate it less bruisingly? If so, their becoming aware there is a major issue and drawing up some rules preventing their lover from wounding their kids would seem a priority.

CMD @6: It's possible that a gay man would refer to a guy as "she" ("is she still talking?" I've seen that happen on RuPaul and Queer Eye), but that coupled with LW's having a boyfriend makes the odds very high that LW is female. The gender isn't important though. Good call on those wondering whether Melvin is young, and has no idea how to act around partners who have kids. I'm just glad these two are grown up; can you imagine having to deal with Melvin's crap if you still lived at home??

CMD @ 6 - "a two-man couple gets to adopt two kids some twenty years ago is another"

I've never lived in the States, but I remember seeing a news report on American TV when I was still living with my parents (I left in 1982) about a single gay man in San Francisco who had adopted a child (and how the child had not been affected by his dad's sexuality, which was kinda groundbreaking to show on TV at the time). So perhaps each unmarried gay dad adopted one child. Or one of them adopted both, but as far as the children are concerned, this was merely a legal technicality and, having been raised by both, the children consider themselves adopted by both. This is a non-issue.

So is the landline thing. This is just Dan's snobbishness showing... and that of everyone else pretending that landlines have totally disappeared because no one in their privileged urban peer group has one. See Skeen's first paragraph @ 21 for further explanation if necessary. (I don't watch TV, so I have a landline - it's the cheapest way to get Internet service where I live, and the service is much better than with cable.)

a gay male friend of mine, in a 20+year marriage to a man, likes to bring thirds into the relationship. He likes them younger, but most importantly, he likes them damaged and he likes to fix them. Save them. Give them love, support, education, guidance, and set them on a much better path in life. His husband calls these younger guys "projects."

I think the letter writer's father, or at least one of them, likes projects. His instinct to father is kicking in and he sees a younger man who is in need of guidance and..well, fathering. Her father is entitled to have his "projects" but she and her brother are entitled to have her relationships with her fathers as well.

I highly suspect that Melvin is more about one of the fathers than the other. Perhaps have a heart to heart with the other father who isn't as entrenched with Melvin. He will likely be open and can act as an influencer to the other father.

Melvin sounds like a very young, insecure, and possibly abused boy toy “project.” This is very popular among men of a certain age. I’ve seen this in both straight and gay worlds. Rich men go through their first shitty life crisis and dump their wives for an insecure gold digging piece of jail bait. These wives then try to secure their place in the relationship by being an asshole to those around them, puffing up their chest and making a place for themselves because their husbands consider them a secondary part of their relationship and they will never attain primary status. You also see this a lot in polyamory when secondaries get overwhelmed in their relationship and get jealous over the primary and try to sabotage that relationship.

That’s what Melvin is doing here. But with the kids. He’s jealous of their primacy in their fathers’ hearts and wants to attain their status. This won’t change without serious intervention on everybody’s part, including making him make the kids feel welcome and making the kids make him feel welcome. There needs to be some laying of ground rules, some punishment, and some rolling out of the welcome mat. And, as I once had to do as the kid in this situation, some bouts of disobedience and just-shy-of-scorched earth reality. Until then, it’s going to be shitty fucking game playing.

Melvin does sound like an immature insecure jealous asshat in the way he treats KID and Brother. Problem is that he doesn't sound like an immature insecure jealous asshat in the way he treats Dad and Pop. It sounds to me like they think of him as another child (except for the whole sex thing). They expect children to be bit a jealous of each other, expect the older brother and sister to be jealous of the new arrival, expect for things to work out if given enough time.

My advice to KID is two-fold. The first is what Dan suggested. Get your fathers alone by inviting them over. Smooth the way for this by first inviting all 3 out and doing your eye rolling best to be polite to Melvin. That way it will seem less weird when you say you want to see just your fathers alone. Have the conversation with your fathers, but stress your concern that Melvin is taking advantage of them. Encourage them to look for red flags in terms of Melvin insinuating himself into their financial affairs. Note the ways Melvin is doing his best to drive the children away thereby setting things up for them to isolated--which is setting things up for them to be abused. State all this as coming from a loving daughter who is concerned about her parents. Oh, and leave your brother out of this conversation. It's not that he doesn't agree with you. It's that you don't want them to feel ganged up on.

Now the hard part. Make nice with Melvin. It's essential that he be disarmed. Is he employed? Does he do housework? Is he a good guy when he's not acting immature, insecure and jealous? (Or is he as I suspect pretty and playful and useless?) Try to bring out the best in him. See where that goes.

"Dads, we need to talk about Melvin. I have no issue with you having a third, and was perfectly willing to accept and welcome him... but Melvin is constantly inappropriate, dismissive of our relationship with you, and all around unpleasant to be around. You say to be patient with him, but why should we? I wouldn't want a person like that in my life, but while it baffles me that you would, you're both adults and make your own decisions about who you want to be around. As do I. So I'm not going to come around the house anymore, but I'd be happy to have you over or meet elsewhere. I also will not be calling your landline, but will call regularly on your cell. And feel free to tell me when he has gotten past the 'be patient' phase and is willing to accept us and treat us decently, and I will be happy to try again. But asking us to suffer through what you are willing to accept is... unreasonable."

I don't know anyone under 70 with a landline. But I agree with the commenter above that some of this might be regional depending on cable/internet access I guess? Surely no one still uses dial up?

But regardless, I wonder if we are all reading the LW's statement too literally? When my father puts me on speaker so everyone in the room can hear (his house is often full since several people live with him), he does not just turn on the speaker on his phone but instead puts the conversation through a bluetooth connected speaker, like you'd use to place music. I guess someone could hit that to turn it off? But she did say "receiver" which I'd accept as just a description out of habit if she were my age, but since she's likely a millennial, I'd assume she's never hit a receiver before to hang up on someone, but who knows! It is a very interesting part of the letter. Inquiring minds gotta know.

As for gay men adopting a child 20 years ago, I was in social services then and there were in fact a very few number of agencies that were cool with this, especially if you were willing to do open adoptions (which were relatively new then) or if you were willing to adopt kids that were not white or that had been exposed in-utero to drugs. In fact, meeting those qualifications through a private agency could sometimes get you to the front of the line. I don't know the legal details about any of this since that wasn't my area, but I did have a kiddo on my case load that had been adopted by a lesbian couple in the mid 90s- it's possible things might've been easier for women? She was not related to her moms, though they did know her birth mother who approved of the adoption. If you need an example of what this was like for a gay couple in real life, then you need look no farther than the memoir on this experience written by the very man whose column we are all talking about. I guess Dan's son must be around 20 by now?

Also let's keep in mind that we know nothing at all about the details of the adoption. There are all sorts of ways that a child can end up in the care of other people. One of the dads could be an extended family member and/or friend/acquaintance of the birth parents for all we know which makes custody then adoption easier (though there's still a long process) even for nontraditional situations. My point is that there's no reason to distrust the authenticity of the letter based on this. The landline thing seems much more suspect! Though if you were going to fabricate a story, surely you wouldn't include a landline? Unless it's a fabrication by a very old and out of touch person who is aware of gay adoption but not of the ubiquitousness of cell phones. I would like to meet that person.

The conversation quality on land lines is SOOOO much better than on a cellphone. This ain't no "vinyl is better" hipsterism - it's crystal clear voice with no cutting out and it's crystal clear. I *hate* talking on cellphones with a passion

I thought that as well Fichu @27.. keep an eye on the money LW and property. This brat Melvin might have his eye on the goodies and wants you and your brother to back right off.
Emotionally LW, you need to be the bigger person here, and disengage from this man's childish antics. These men are your parents and those relationships are rock solid, I assume. This doesn't mean you don't call this man when he's being a bratboy, it just means you don't emotionally join him, don't play sibling rivalry with him.
Respect your dads' choice(s), even if you don't like or respect the person they choose.

I don't know - Melvin sounds like a hoot and a half, and the damaged lads are always great in the sack. He also seems to remember that being gay is a wonderful opportunity to subvert and pervert the heteronormative and patriarchal underpinnings of the nuclear family. If we read Freud anymore, instead of dismissing him as an old pervert, we'd recall that the intimacy between parents and children depends on on exactly the same drives and impulses as sexual intimacy, and Foucault wrote a whole book about how bourgeois capitalism uses this to construct normal and abnormal sexualities. We now instinctively dismiss the obvious and taboo underpinnings of the gay 'Daddy/son' dynamic as metaphorical, but part of the appeal of these relationships is the way the reimagine a loving, paternal and sexual relationship, which, after all, is the unconscious desire of all gay boys. And of course, the ancient Greeks built an entire civilisation on the erotic pleasure men could experience from loving a beautiful young man both sexually and paternally. So I say kudos to Melvin for rocking the little heteronormative boat of good bourgeoise citizenship his daddies built, and reminding them of the fundamental principal of Gay Liberation - sex is not about raising the next generation of good citizens, but about finding pleasure and freedom right now.

For all those people saying its unlikely that a gay couple probably wouldn't be allowed to adopt 20 years ago.....isn't Dan and Terry's son about 20 years old now? And google says that the first gay couple to adopt a kid was in California in 1979.

M? Sapien - All? Nah.

>> We chat on the phone three or four nights a week ... Our dads often invite us over for dinner, and if one of us is in the neighborhood, we might call and see if we can swing by. >>

It's also a possibility that the dads (or one of them) are trying to figure out how to transition to spending somewhat less time with their grown children, and it's possible that Melvin hears that conversation behind the scenes. In the LW's place, I would try to be alert to any signals from my parents that they might want more time for themselves.

M. Vennoninon - Of course I mean at a very formative stage of our sexualities. It may be uncomfortable to reflect that the man from whom my libido learned the connections between love, desire and pleasure was my father, but it is nonetheless true, as it is for all people who are sexually attracted to men. We are very young when this happens, and do not consciously remember it, but it is very influential in who and what we find attractive as adults.

@6: My son just turned 20.

@ 27 As someone with adult children, no - hell no! - on the idea of attacking Melvin by trying to plant "he's after your money!" seeds.

My kids' relationship with me is their business, and they've got every right to express concern about something that seems to be interfering with that relationship. However, my relationship with someone I'm fucking is about as much their business as their relationships with the people they are fucking is mine - that is, not much. If KID has any reason to be concerned on that score, it wasn't mentioned in the letter, and in order for it to be acceptable to have that kind of talk with another adult, you need to have reasons - real reasons.

Just because Melvin appears to have no idea what a boundary is does not justify everyone else storming them, too.

Happy B-Day junior and proud fathers!

Could be yet another paranoia attack, but Pan Sapien reads like some other anti homo trolls, eluding to long gone civilizations vanishing due to accepting homosexuality, hence the imminent demise of the west if don’t stop it.
“sex is not about raising the next generation of good citizens, but about finding pleasure and freedom right now.”

My spouse and I have smartphones but still have a landline.

CMD @ 39 - I think it's just someone who read too much Foucault (by which I mean "who read Foucault", as any is too much).

Seriously, Pan Sapien @32 & 36? Nobody, but nobody has the real take on how one's orientation develops. And you defending some jealous man because you think he's confronting heteronormative nuclear families is a stretch. Loving one's children is what any parent should do, and it's not up to some random third to involve himself in that dynamic.
Throwing in Freud and Foucault ain't gonna cover your ignorant arse.

Pan @32: I doubt you'll find many who agree with you that one of the virtues of gayness is the freedom to be a dick to your partners' kids. At least I hope not.

Add me to the "I have a landline" club. I rarely use it, but it's helpful when I've misplaced my mobile. KID may use the landline so she can talk to both dads at once without them putting her on a tinny speakerphone. Or it may just be a habit they've never outgrown.

Happy birthday, Dan's son!

@all. 32. Pan is a better class of troll. I, for one, am thankful to such a classy troll around. @all those who have birthdays, happy birthday. @Bi, happy date.

@44 ~ Anyone out there who doesn't have a birthday?

Melvin: Oh, is she still talking?
Dad: Ha, ha, just his sense of humor.
KID: What do you think, Dad? Do you think I'm talking too much?

Melvin: Your family is weirdly close knit.
KID: It sounds like you have no good relationships with your family. Is that why you don't know what a loving, close family is like?

Pop: Be patient with Melvin.
KID: Have you asked Melvin to be patient with me? Have you asked him to change anything about his behavior for me? I'm just trying to be fair.

Melvin: Your brother is just your fathers' type.
KID: That's a horrible thing to say.
Melvin: You misunderstood me.
KID: Okay, explain. Tell me what you meant. I'm listening.

@Donnyk 16 "Anyone who tries to interfere with the relationship between a parent(s) and their children is a gold-plated asshole. End of story."

So true! Why is it so hard for so many parents to understand this?

DonnyK @ 45 - Well sometimes my body feels like I've been around since the dawn of times (when there were no calendars).

Lava @ 42 - Thanks, that's everything I wanted to say but didn't have time (and mental energy) to structure and write.

Pan Sapien, yes erotic messages occur in our childhood, and identifying what they might have been is just wanting to know more about oneself. There's no one size fits all. How does your theory stack up when it's two dads and the son is straight? Don't justify bratty behaviour as if it's revolutionary.

Maybe you're right Erica. Maybe four calls a week is a bit much. Maybe the dads can't voice this, so they ' let' Marvin do it.
LW, keep an eye on the story and speak your truth as you need to and yeah, maybe back off a bit.

Happy 🎉 B'Day, Terry and Dan's Son.
20 eh, no longer a teen.

Melvin's age hasn't been mentioned. He may be close in age to KID's. He certainly sounds like a kid. KID hardly mentions her side of the story, e.g. I doubt she was angelically sweet to Melvin from the start. So is this some kind of tag game between Melvin and KID? (BTW, just to rub it in Dan, 46% of households in USA have landlines; you are out of touch with nearly half the population. Or was it a bad joke?)

Melvin sounds jealous and jealous is a weird thing to feel toward your lovers' children. Fuck Melvin. LW should stop by the dads' house a lot less and invite them over more often. (Sans fuck-stick Melvin.)

I have a landline in Federal Way because the cell reception in my condo is shit.

I have a landline because I had one when I moved here in 1997 and I still do because it still works. Why wouldn’t I?

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