Comments

1
Not leaving James sounds like a recipe for being miserable in the long run. The world is full of people in their 40s, 50s, and 60s that are in a relationship they hate with a job that sucks and living in a house they never wanted.
2
Given the point-blank choice (and circumstances may have conspired to give her this choice), I think BI would opt for the 'adorable friend' over 'James'. She perhaps isn't ready to settle down quite yet--isn't ready for the suburbs, not least because she would like to leave her job and isn't sold on the city she's living in. 'James' is offering--again through circumstances and through no fault or failure to listen of his own--something that isn't quite satisfactory to BI right now--a neighborhood that's wrong, too big a commitment on a new place ... and that insistent and nerve-shredding sound of a shoot-'em up the second she gets in from work....

There's no suggestion in BI's letter that she thinks Adorable Friend will be a straight swap for James. They won't necessarily be moving out to the suburbs.... One thing that BI did express for AF, which she didn't for J, was desire. Shouldn't this be the clincher in her decision? She should let James down gently ... perhaps they'll remain friends and she won't entirely lose him. But after her time with AF, maybe the LW will not hold out much of a candle any more for James. She would probably kick herself in later life if, at thirty, she did not take up this opportunity of an exciting new relationship she craved.
3
Yes, do James a favour and break up in a way least likely to harm him, then go and take the path to future misery with the Temptress.
4
BI, it sounds like you actually have no clue what will make you happy. No where in your letter do you actually say what you want, and if your conversations with James are like your letter, he really can’t offer to make the significant changes it might require for you to be happy together.

And a spoiler alert, those feelings you have for your friend? That a case of New Relationship Energy, the promise of something new and exciting. Those feelings will dissipate in a few months of living together in a new city, at which point you may wake up to realize that you’re still no closer to being happy because you haven’t thought about what you want outside of whatever relationship you’re in.

Lastly, James’ trauma history shouldn’t dictate what shows you feel he should watch.
5
M?? Harriet - What suggests this pair might make decent friends? They seem a worse match on that front than on romance.
6
Hey, it's OK to have no clue what you want. It's OK to leave a relationship and not settle down simply because you are clueless. It's also OK to run off with someone new and exciting and then find out it was all infatuation and it crumbled away!

The LW is not financially tied to anyone. She is not in a stable career or a mortgage. She does not have children. She and James are not married. She is young enough that she can play around for a while. She has a little bit of money saved up.

So what if she dumps James just because she's bored and confused and runs off with the infatuation? That's fine so long as she doesn't lie to anyone and try to two-time James who wants monogamy.

The only shitty thing to do would be to lead James on into changing his life and buying a house- that would suck. If she just dumps him for reckless new relationship energy because she doesn't know what she wants with her life, that's OK. That's part of figuring it out.

Also, while it is true that her trauma history (not James's) shouldn't dictate what he watches, especially in his own house, it's also true that there is a world of people out there who don't want to spend their spare time playing video games and watching movies in a man cave. If the LW decides she wants a life that doesn't include those things, that's OK too.
7
Take Adorable Friend out of the equation.
It still doesn't sound like a workable situation for BI and James. They started as friends; maybe they can dial back down to friends.

Do not underestimate the importance in being happy in your job, your home, your city/burb.

While it's true that the lw's trauma history shouldn't dictate which shows her partner should watch or which video games she thinks her partner should play, the reality is that these are parts of their lives that they won't be able to share. And if they already have few common interests, there's an awful lot of room for alienation on both sides. If one person is so traumatized by the other one's entertainment choices that s/he has to leave the house, that's impractical and I'd expect that the partner who feels they have to leave their own home would grow resentful over time; similarly, the partner who is made to feel that his/her entertainment choices are toxic to the mate would either feel judged or compelled to give them up, either of which could result in resentment. Or James just doesn't care how triggered his gf is by his choice of how he spends his leisure time, which is also not a good sign.

8
Emma Liz, our posts crossed, but I think we said a lot of the same things.
9
I agree completely with Harriet and don't understand either Venn's idea that she and the adorable friend will be miserable nor Sublime's impression that the LW is going to wake up and realize she's unhappy. Cmon folks. The way you throw around misery and unhappiness- so the fuck what if a 30 year old with no children and no financial obligations and a bit of money and no career holding her to one place wants to be adventuresome for a time? So what? Most relationships lead to nothing. She'll probably hang with the adorable friend for a little while, have an experience, move on to something else, maybe learn herself a little better. Maybe she'll still be confused in a few years. Maybe she'll have fun. What she won't do if she runs off with the adorable friend is get herself trapped in a relationship, a mortgage, a job, etc that she regrets.
10
Based on the way the letter is written, she's already decided no, she's just too reluctant to execute the decision.
11
Sub @ 4 - It's not James' trauma history, it's the LW. And she's allowed to not want that in her life. Indeed, I'd say she should make sure she doesn't have that in her life.

Nocute and Emma's take on the subject @ 6, 7 and 9 is right on. WTF are you on, Sub and Venn?!?
12
If you grew up in a burb and only have like, 5 or 6 years of city living under your belt, you'll want more. To fuck more rando adorbies, go to dance parties and bars etc. If you've spent 100% of your 30 years in cities already, I'd advice, get the fuck out, regardless of if you stay with James or get with Jane or whatever else. The Seattle's and San Francisco's of the world aren't cities anymore: They are overgrown "Town center" shopping malls, playgrounds for those with disposable income to conspiciously dispose of their income at places like the Showbox or Neumos or wherever the fuck other cool place you wanna go is. This shit is only a decade from being as hip and trendy as The Sharper Image. But the food courts aren't bad.
13
@5. Venn. Yes. She tries to be nice to him--calling him 'sweet' and 'thoughtful' and instead shifting criticism to where he lives and some of what he does (the shooters). The overall picture I get of them--him 'nice', kind, solicitous when not playing video games, her with a 'trauma history' and job she dislikes--is that their dynamic is that she's 'better' than him, possibly better-educated, culturally 'tonier' or with better work prospects (if she applied herself to it); and that he looks up to, defers to, her. (And she's grateful but not necessarily thrilled). All this could be wrong; but it's my impression.

It will be hard for her not to think she's passing up a big chance--the chance of a house in the suburbs, potentially a durable relationship, marriage and kids--if she leaves him. And she's thirty, the watershed age where she's thinking, in all probability, that she should be pursuing these things. That was sort-of why I said, 'perhaps you won't lose him entirely'. I did think, actually, that if she came running back, from her brief description he would welcome her again. But should she do this? I'm pretty sure that she should be fancy-free for a while, more flexible in her work and love-life, and go off with Adorable Friend.
14
@6. EmmaLiz. Exemplary answer! On point with all the details too!
15
@11/Ricardo, et al.: I take no position on whether BI should stay or go, that’s her call. It’s easy to say leave, but I think the real question to pose to BI is what to do want out of life? Where do you want to live? What job do you want?

To suggest that floating along without expending any thought about what is going to make you happy isn’t a recipe for success. EmmaLiz, is correct, BI can leave James and start something with AF, maybe that will workout, but if BI were my friend I would suggest she thinks about what it is she wants rather than be seduced by the prospect of the new, shiny relationship.

Apologies on the last bit, that was a misread on my part.
16
Do James a favor and leave.
17
Headphones exist.

Do people have allergies to them? Because it really seems like they do. Sound quality is better, doesn't set off your partners PTSD, your neighbors might get some sleep unencumbered by 3am WWII strafing runs, you can blast it as loud as you want, where's the downside? The solution instead is to buy a house? With a guy who seems like a jerk?
18
He knows this, and turns it down when I ask him to, but I can still hear it and it makes me want to leave the house all the time.
Why does this remind me of stereotypical male behaviour where the partner not only can't get the guy to acknowledge the pain caused ... but who also conveniently keeps forgetting about how much it's bothering her. It doesn't necessarily have to be something that triggers her like PTSD; it could be something trivial. Still, it appears that HIS enjoyment of these violent games, etc., is of far greater priority than her sanity.

Headphones might be an acceptable solution but I get the impression that these games are too much an integral part of Who. He. Is. He and BI just aren't compatible, even without all the other reasons she's mentioned.
19
Yes indeed, headphones exist. In fact, from what I've seen, headphones and headsets are quite popular with Gamers nowadays.
I'm sure that's extremely obvious to both BI and James, and the fact that they haven't tried that out suggest that loud games and movies really aren't the problem.

It can be very difficult to end a relationship with somebody you care about, and possibly even love, even when you know the relationship isn't going to work out.
Lots of people in this sort of situation will try to find a way to destroy the relationship, by having an affair with an adorable friend for instance.
That may seem very quick and easy in the short-term, but in the long run you'll just end up feeling guilty. ( usually after you find out that you're adorable friend isn't right for you either.)

This is one of those situations where the only good decision is going to be a tough decision.
Don't take the easy way out BI, you'll regret it in the long run. It sounds like you've already made the decision to end the relationship, and if you care for James, try to be as compassionate as you can when you break things off.
And if I can give one more piece of advice, try to take it slow when you're adorable friend. After your current unhappy relationship is over, you may find your friend isn't quite as adorable as you feel they are right now. And if your friend is adorable and wonderful as you saying, they deserve to be something more than just a rebound fling.

Good luck BI, you sound like a nice person.
20
@19: Adam Kadmon, what a compassionate and insightful comment.
21
My advice to BI would be to start by moving out. You don't have to break up; you and James enjoyed dating when you weren't living together. Maybe try that again.

Also - even if James is monogamous personally, have you had the difficult but important conversation with him about how maybe you're not? Some monogamous people don't mind their partners being non-monogamous. So move out, and bring up the possibility of dating other people, and see where that leads.
22
EmmaLiz great advice - you're my new spirit animal!
23
Not the time to think of a new relationship just yet LW, though she sounds promising. And a man who plays violent video games is not someone I'd move to the suburbs to be with. Man cave or not.
Sweet as he is, his hobby is pretty boring and you get triggered by it. Why have you stayed so long?
24
Don't ask James to uproot what he currently has when you already are feeling as ambivalent about the whole thing as you clearly are. You'll fuck up his house, his job and commute, his friends and social network, his bank accounts paying for the mortgage and the soundproofing, and then end up leaving him for Adorable Friend or Another Adorable Friend after all.

If you aren't absolutely sure you want to make a life with him, don't go through the motions of establishing one.
25
It's hard for the LW to get a line on what Adorable Friend is offering without morally or micro-cheating on James. And I feel this would be a bad thing for her to do. Maybe the excitement of a possible relationship with her friend is that it could be a fling, it could fizzle out, it could be wildly hot; it won't necessarily lead to the suburbs. But she shouldn't, for me, put her toe in the water by starting anything without making a clean, courteous break with her current partner.

There are clearly issues behind his not turning the volume on his shooters down. We know he has a steady job and a pension with his company. Possibly he's older than the LW, earns more, makes more of a financial contribution? The gaming is his way of kicking back--finding release from work pressures in reverting to being a kid. He feels entitled to it. But he's not entitled to trigger her trauma (say, if she was caught up in a shooting; or her father drunkenly waved a gun around when she was a kid or ... whatever. Whatever trauma). If anything, she's entitled to make him sit through a PBS period drama. She has doubts about where the relationship is headed quite irrespective of this sudden chance with Adorable Friend.
26
Headphones don't cover the reality of what James watches. Violent films and videos, and he's not even prepared to give them up to protect the LW. And buying a house is a huge decision and LW you don't sound like someone who wants to make that choice, just yet.
Break up with James because you are not compatible, even though you have love for him. Go live on your own or in a share house and decide your next move re job/ city and your friend. Give some time before you enter another romance. Treat James well and enjoy your life.
27
"Future misery"? Venn @3, you win the cynical award.

Sublime @4: BI isn't, or at least I hope she isn't, talking about moving in/away with her friend, at least not straightaway. But it sounds like there's more future potential there than there is with James. She already knows the life James wants won't make her happy -- and I'll echo her instinct, DO NOT buy a house with someone you're unsure about; this is a bigger commitment than marriage and harder to get out of! I think BI should break up with James, move out on her own, date Adorable Friend, and see where that goes. I don't think she should pass up her opportunity to "start over" -- either on her own or with this friend, if their preferences align and they're still going strong in six months or a year's time. She's just the right age and if she doesn't go for it, I think she will regret it.

In other words, I agree 100% with EmmaLiz and NoCute. BI, go live your life!

Harriet @13: "It will be hard for her not to think she's passing up a big chance--the chance of a house in the suburbs, potentially a durable relationship, marriage and kids--if she leaves him."
To some of us, that sounds like a "big chance." To others, it sounds like our worst nightmare. BI's unhappiness with her current arrangement -- and temptation by a potential same-sex, not-necessarily-monogamous relationship -- suggests she's in the latter camp. It sounds to me as if she's 30 and worried, not tempted, by the prospect of getting trapped into a Suburban Wife and Mother lifestyle. That's not what all 30-year-old women want. It's not what she wants.
28
Her and James don’t seem a good long term match. It sounds like she is not ready to settle down, so she shouldn’t. Explore life and have fun doing so, LW. To help you do that, you may want to start/continue counseling, for your depression and to help you overcome your trauma legacy. If being around someone playing video games triggers you, you will find yourself seriously limited in romantic partners in todays world. James sounds reasonable but he may want to do some self-reflection as well. Moving in together will result in both partners having to adjust their behavior to their new reality and it’s not clear that he’s doing so.
29
@27 BDF

Yes seriously. A house in the suburbs, a commute to work, marriage/kids, man cave... war zones are worse. Aside from fleeing violence though, I really can't think of anything that would drive me to that.
30
I have nothing to add on the main topic, I just want to suggest therapy to BI if she hasn't already had it. (It seems warranted based upon her trauma history and depression, and multiple annoyances. I understand "Somatic Experiencing" can be helpful, BI.)
31
Move into a place you love. When you walk in you should feel a sense of 'yes!' And 'this is mine!' Having full creative control of your home surroundings can not be understated. For myself and a lot of women I know our mental health deteriorates in shitty living situations. So live alone in an apartment or house you can really make yours and feels like you. Then make decisions from a clearer headspace.
32
Not sure why "James" is referred to as a "Nerd" in the title and nowhere else. I always understood that nerds are geeky and bookish.
33
While great, thoughtful advice by many I was still impressed with Sprty’s @ 12 prose, which inspired me for this erasure poetry:

burb your adorbies
years regardless
with Jane or
disposable dispose
like you wanna
this
shit
is
food
34
LW wants out, has wanted out for a while, and is using the video games as an excuse so that she doesn't have to deal with deeper stuff.

She knows this deep down, which is why she is writing the letter. Like most letters I read here, she is asking Dan for permission to leave James.

@12: Why do so many people think that you either have to be in the city 100% of the time, or in the suburbs 100% of the time?

I bought a home in the suburbs, and can take a twenty minute train ride into the city whenever I want. While in the city I can go to whatever bars or dance parties I want to, and then return to the peaceful and safe suburbs when I am done.

You can enjoy what both have to offer if you want to.
35
I was not in the mood when the original comment was made to show the work. Remember, though, people - you asked for it.

Mr Savage painted quite a reasonable picture of LW's present and potential future misery with James. I had nothing to say against that portion of the response. He seemed to invite the inference (Ms Cute - I have been using ITI fairly often lately as I am growing increasingly dissatisfied with the difficulties of saying someone is implying something, given how much guesswork there is about intent; do you have any opinion on this?) that running off with the Temptress would be all kale and Brussels sprouts (to guess at two of LW's favourite foods). However, on the whole, I was highly pleased with Mr Savage's answer. Especially from the way the response began, I gave Mr Savage a massive quantity of credit for not ending the response with DTMFA. In fact, his declining to do so even though LW seemed to be kinda-sorta maybe subconsciously angling for it (which I infer from the way she positioned James' monogamy in the letter, as if she were trying to make it stand out while simultaneously looking as if she were really trying to hide it [if I wanted to annoy Ms Phile, I'd say that here LW did something sneaky]) was such a surprise that I am going to make a guess rather similar to Edward Ferrars' telling Marianne Dashwood, "I guess that Mr Willoughby hunts." My guess is that Le Fils has taught his sissy daddy to love First Person Shooters.

I can come up with a number of reads for The Grand Confession Scene. To be fair, I find the opening sentence of that paragraph to be so increasingly unbearably twee as to belong in a bad female-penned MM fiction. But, given LW's pre-existing crush, I can't really be satisfied with any confession scene that exonerates them both as honourable people in the style of Christopher Tietjens and Valentine Wannop in the Parade's End tetralogy. Either Temptress is the sort of person who does not scruple to attempt to poach a partnered friend, LW either consciously or subconsciously nudged Temptress into it, or some combination of the two.

As for the misery, while we know that Mr Savage approves of and (subtly) encourages people's acting like Linnet Doyle, it's certainly plausible that Temptress, if the initiative for the Grand Confession was all her own, may eventually poach in a manner not not to LW's liking. Some of us might consider it probable. But I have another idea about LW to which I gave a hint when I mentioned guessing.

Ms Cute and Ms Ods - does LW remind you of anybody? Perhaps not, if we recall the letter that so amazed me when nobody thought an expert at pestering similar to that prototype of PPP, Mr Collins. But LW here does strike me as bearing a resemblance to Willoughby, perhaps in a slightly less blameworthy version. Only here perhaps we could frame it with Miss Grey and Marianne reversed, or slightly altered. Recall Elinor's assessment that, had Willoughby married Marianne, he would have had a wife he loved with whose temper he could find no fault, but that he would soon increase his estimation of the value of a large income after their poverty finally began to encroach upon his pursuits. Compatibility vs stability. Perhaps the stability might be rather less financial in this case, but I could easily see either LW's staying with James while pining for her superiour compatibility with the Temptress, or going off with the Temptress only to find growing on her a longing for the stodgy monogamy of poor old James.
36
Harriet @13 does make a good point, though. While "settling down in the suburbs" obviously isn't appealing to this LW, at her age she is no doubt feeling some pressure -- from parents and society at large -- to do just that. You're 30 now! Grow up! Take that soul-sucking, high-paying job you hate! Move away from the fun, to the big house with lots of bedrooms for your inevitable sprogs! Settle down -- even if that means settling! Perhaps she's feeling less dissatisfaction with James himself than with these expectations, and they're the main reason she wants to get away -- while she still can.

Fubar @32: I wondered that too -- the only evidence of his "nerdiness" seems to be that he likes video games, and he doesn't like "nerdy" games, he likes violent ones. Misleading title alert!
37
@27/BiDanFan: "Confusing the situation, an adorable friend that I've always had a crush on just confessed feelings for me. She and I are two peas in a pod with really similar lifestyle choices, hobbies, food preferences, much more similar than me and my partner, and I've had her in my head the last few days. She's also been fantasizing about starting over somewhere new..?"

Bi, I may be reading more into this than BI intends, but I her letter strongly suggests she feels trapped somewhere she doesn't want to be and is fantasizing about leaving the area, and it so happens that AF is also fantasizing about starting over somewhere new. I read that and think BI is considering running with her feelings and moving away with AF.

Maybe you're right, and BI is thinking about doing something sensible, like getting her own place, not rushing into any any too serious with AF, while exploring their connection. However, the combination of feeling trapped and the strong scent of NRE, makes me want to throw a bit of cold water on BI, before she finds herself in an entirely new part of the country renting an apartment with AF, and realizing that things aren't so rosy after the NRE wears off.
38
Mr Venn: I think there's a decent chance you're right about LW; although she's certainly not in the minority in wanting to be able to mix-and-match characteristics from (potential) lovers. It's not totally clear to me that she's the type to end up unhappy either way...but the potential is there.

In this case, I think what we have is a sunken cost fallacy. She's invested time and love into James; she wants to get something out of that--hence the attempt to imagine that it might all work out, if only every single aspect were different. That's the problem with sunken cost, eh? Leaving him seems to make all that love and effort worthless. It's not true, of course, and it's certainly not sufficient reason for staying. But it's a hard call to make, emotionally (or else she clearly would have already made it).

LW: Please PLEASE don't buy a house with someone you aren't positive about. In fact, it's questionable whether you should buy a house even then. But nothing accelerates your distaste for a given relationship like feeling that you're completely trapped in it because you made a huge financial commitment together.

An aspect that I think is under-discussed in the comments in general is biological time line. The statement of Dan's that 30 is young is certainly true in a social context; but it's decidedly not true, biologically. People who have no desire to have children (or to have them themselves) therefore have much more flexibility about these things. I hope the LW is in this camp, as then she can go forth and frolic and not be brought up short five years from now in a place far from where she wants to be. (I don't advocate staying in a so-so relationship in order to have kids. But it's a real and major factor for some people, and I feel like it never gets much sympathy around here when considering how much time a given LW has to play around and try new things/people. Of course, since my feeling is that we have far too many people already, I'll err in the direction of encouraging people to keep exploring other options--and if in the end, it's too late for kids, ah well, such is life.)

All that said, if it were me, I would have left the minute it turned out his main hobby was video games--without even getting to the worrisome aspects of past trauma and present lack of consideration. What a bore to live with.
39
When I started #35, #25 was the last post up.

Ms Fan - Consider me appropriately thankful.

Mr Alan - Well spotted; James strikes me as resembling Mr Rushworth in the matter of partner selection.

M? Bar - Maybe an SJW headline writer?
40
Ms Ods - Thank you for mentioning the reproductive factor, which I wanted to leave for an OS woman.

41
I think ciods' sunk cost factor is exactly what's going on here.
42
And nocute is right that it's "sunk cost." I'd like to say something defensive about posting pre-caffeine, but really that's no excuse...
43
Sublime @37: It depends on how sympathetically you view the LW. I view her sympathetically, so I choose to read "not sure I want to stay in this city" + "he's tied here" + "she's been fantasising about starting over somewhere new" as adding up to "she's more compatible with my life plan than he is." But, we don't know her from just one letter. It is possible she is, in fact, impulsive enough to be thinking, or to be easily talked into, running off with someone she hasn't been dating for very long.

Even if this is the case, though, I refer to EmmaLiz's @6 -- she doesn't seem to have much to lose by making the impetuous choice and seeing where the chips fall, so long as she's cautious about it, for instance not signing both their names to a long-term lease. Self-dousing with cold water isn't a bad idea, but she does seem to me as if she's thinking with her brain and not just her hormones.
44
@38 agree entirely.

As for therapy -yes maybe, especially considering the trauma.

I just want to push back a bit against this idea that it's reckless or not sensible or unhealthy or on a path to misery for someone to not know what they want to do and to make choices that are short-term and directionless. An unrooted lifestyle, with different partners and jobs and impetuous choices, is not an inherently negative thing. It's negative because it often comes with evading responsibility to others or lying to others (or oneself) in order to have your cake and eat it too (settling down into a marriage/mortgage/family while having an affair for example). Or because it requires others to pay your way or requires you to go into debt. None of these things apply to the LW who has a little bit of money, has managed to hold jobs (but not one she wants to build into a career), has no responsibility to others, has no financial responsibility, and is not lying to anyone (yet). If she wants to literally bounce around the world from one job to another and one exciting new relationship to another and never figures out "what she wants" or "who she is" there is nothing inherently wrong with that nor does it indicate she needs therapy nor does it indicate that she's going to have a disappointing life of unhappiness or misery. And if she does want to one day have children, then yes she needs to figure out how to settle down into a happy relationship, but not any time soon as she's only 30. That's old enough that she needs to think on it a little, but not old enough that there is any urgency there. And the first step towards that, anyway, would be to leave James.

Leaving James (gently, ethically) also happens to be the best thing she can do for him and his life as well.
45
Also I might point out that lots of people who want to one day have a family (something the LW didn't mention BTW) do not feel compelled to be the biological creator of that family. I mention this because, as a woman who never wanted kids, I find that people frequently bring up (but biology!) when a woman starts making unconventional life choices, even if the woman herself has said nothing to indicate that there is any reason to consider that. I guarantee you that it has occurred to her, so bringing it up isn't going to be a new idea to her. Therefore, I often wonder if our motivations in reminding women that they need to consider their biology have more to do with discomfort when a woman in her 30s is like "you know? I'd rather just step out of the conventional life available to me and knock around with my hot friend for a while".
46
This guy sounds prettttyyyy boring. Suburbs, video games, and monogamy, fun! ...and on top of it the LW doesn't like her job or the town. I'd be depressed too. You can either change course, or your future is basically laid out for you.
47
NOOOOOOO DON'T MOVE TO THE BURBS
48
A person can be wonderful but not the person for you. That sounds like the case here. Letter writer, your gut is telling you this ain't working. Listen to your gut!

I used to live with a person who liked to play violent video games and whose only acceptable volume settings were "loud" and "louder." I don't have a traumatic past, but hearing gunshots and screams for hours at a time isn't exactly restful background noise. I didn't realize until I started seeing someone new how much nicer it is to wake up the sound of, say, the Everly Brothers than the blaring sirens and machine-gun fire of a shoot-'em-up. I'm not saying that there's anything wrong with enjoying a good shoot-'em-up, just that people can be incompatible for reasons that have nothing to do with sex or emotional availability or any of the other standard relationship stumbling blocks.
49
Mr. Ven: I like your use of "invite the inference" over "implies." At the same time, I think this column invites the over-inference fairly regularly!
50
Monogamy, her dealing with his emotionally triggering violent video games, living together in a community she doesn't like, in a stressful dead-end job she hates---AND she's thinking of their buying a house, too??
No, BI--don't do it! That's a big mistake. I know and have the suburbia battle scars to prove it as a veteran and former Navy dependent wife. If my parents weren't still alive way back when to bail me out of a total nightmare I would be among the dead now.
@44 Well said and summarized, EmmaLiz.
51
@EmmaLiz @45:
> Therefore, I often wonder if our motivations in reminding women that they need to
> consider their biology have more to do with discomfort when a woman in her 30s
> is like "you know? I'd rather just step out of the conventional life available to me
> and knock around with my hot friend for a while".

I suppose this is possible! And you're right that you don't have to have kids yourself to have kids. In my case, I bring it up despite my quite sizable comfort with unconventional life choices (I made most of them myself ;) because I have found that it's common now for girls/women to think that they can easily have kids in their mid or late thirties, having seen many examples (e.g. celebrities), and they don't realize that many of those examples involved a large amount of medical intervention and an even larger amount of money. Hence I object (very slightly) to statements like this:
> And if she does want to one day have children, then yes she needs to
> figure out how to settle down into a happy relationship, but not any time
> soon as she's only 30.

...given that most people don't meet the right person as soon as they decide to settle down, and most people want to test drive a relationship for a few years before considering kids, and most women's reproductive capability starts decreasing at 30 and decreases sharply at 35.

I know a number of women (more than eight) who waited until their mid-30s to start trying, either because they weren't in the right relationship or because they wanted to get settled in a career first (e.g. academics who wanted to first get tenure), who were then unable to conceive naturally. Some (four) managed it with repeated rounds of IVF (which can run $20k a pop) and the rest did not. As I've said before, I don't want kids, so to me it's hard to understand, but I know that for some of them it was a real and great sadness.

That's all.
52
Yes I know what you mean, ciods, but since she didn't mention children at all, it seems a strange thing to bring up rather than any of the other millions of life-altering choices that women could make or misunderstand. I also disagree that waiting too long to have children and then having complications around it is a more important or consequential 'mistake' that one might make than any other decision- taking on debt, going into the wrong marriage, taking the wrong job, considerations of health, etc. I might be biased though because by default, I think people should err on the side of not having children as in my experience, people who were unable to have them even when they desired them mostly figured out other ways to have meaningful lives whereas people who had children and then it turned out to be different than they expected (either because they weren't suited to parenthood or because the children had disabilities/issues that made life harder or because they couldn't afford it or because they were psychological unable to parent) have their lives destroyed or at least a few decades of misery and poverty. So as a gamble or as the considerations that a person who doesn't quite know what they want out of life and who they want it with, I'd say worrying about whether or not they'd be able to easily have kids in six or seven years should be near the bottom of their immediate considerations. But really I was responding more to the fact that people giving women advice who bring up biological clocks are basically saying, "so have you noticed that you have a uterus?" as if it hasn't been a major factor in most women's lives since puberty.
53
@38 ciods.. I'd imagine any woman hitting thirty who wants children is starting to factor in a bit of panic, even if it's unconscious. You are right it could be a reason she hasn't left what is obviously a unsatisfactory relationship.
54
Ciods @51: If BI does want kids, that seems an even stronger argument in favour of her leaving James, who she knows is not the partner she wants to be with long-term, and start looking for the one she does want to be with. The worst thing she could do for herself, James, or any future kids is couple up with an unsuitable spouse for breeding purposes. Also, not only does she not need to give birth to be a mother, she doesn't need a partner. If she gets to 35 and is still single, she has the option of having a kid on her own.
55
@52, 53, 54: agree!

@Bi, I definitely wasn't meaning to imply she should stay with James if she wants kids. The only reason I brought it up at all was as a counterpoint to what I think of as the fairly frequent "30 is young! You don't have to have things figured out!"-style statements of Dan and the commetariat. And I did mean it as a general comment on that type of response, not as a particular comment on this letter, especially since she didn't mention kids at all--I tried to say that in my initial post, but it didn't come through well. Anyway, yes, you're right!

And Emma @52:
> I also disagree that waiting too long to have children and then
> having complications around it is a more important or consequential
> 'mistake' that one might make than any other decision- taking on
> debt, going into the wrong marriage, taking the wrong job,
> considerations of health, etc.

Maybe you're just disagreeing with a general attitude? But I agree with you about this completely, so just wanted to say you're not disagreeing with me :)
56
ciods, I'm certainly biased about kids and often disagreeable in general, ha ha. Disagreeing with you specifically, I doubt it!
57
Ciods @55: I wasn't implying that you were implying that BI should stay with James if she wants kids. I tagged you to note that my point on "what if she wants kids" was a follow-on from your comment, not a disagreement with it. Hope that's cleared things up!
58
*struggles to find way out of paper bag*

:)
59
@22: "you're my new spirit animal"
Instead of going for implicitly racist exoticism, I suggest using "inspiration" in this context instead.
60
There is nothing more soul crushing than finding yourself living in the suburbs with a house, kids, pets, husband, monogamy, debt, nosy neighbors and domestication, when you started out as an adventurous bi independent woman. I speak from experience. I can understand the perspective of a 30 year old asking herself, “what if I want children one day” now is the time to plan. But seriously, unless you’re ok with living selflessly, for someone else (husband/kids) and delaying some of your fantasies for 10-20 years, don’t do this. Picking out curtains and arguing about paint colour can be mind numbing experiences, unless you’re doing it with your very best friend
61
Ms Cute - I'd probably already decided to keep ITI, but respect your input, and am glad it was favourable. I'd gotten the situation of not proclaiming on someone else's implication to be a counterpart to Elizabeth Bennet's telling Mr Darcy that she must not decide on her own performance. My thanks to Ms Fan as well for providing an example of its utility.
62
@27. Bi. I think the LW does see settling down in the 'burbs at 30 as a 'big chance' or otherwise she wouldn't be writing the letter. But she's with the wrong guy/person, imv. The alternative view is that she feels guilty at having to break off with James. But it can't be helped; and better she does it cleanly.
63
The discussion has already touched all the bases with remarkable thoroughness and empathy. Good luck to BI and James!

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