Especially if you’re anywhere near middle-aged, SID, next time you’re in a bar hitting on someone, your best bet is to excuse yourself briefly, nip home, call a lawyer, get a divorce, separate your assets, ditch the woman in the bar, and devote a portion of your settlement to regular visits with a sex worker. Forget this open marriage business—as a married guy those are your best odds at a sex-based relationship.

@1 "Sex will always cost, but marriage is the most expensive option"

I just want to thank this letter writer and the many other letter writers that write in to Dan about the problems that come from opening up/polifying their relationships. Now I can know for sure that I wouldn't want the headaches. Best of luck to all of you who go for it!

It's harder for men in open relationships, alert the press.
Tough shit, LW. This is how it is - and there are a multitude of factors that contribute to that.
The list includes, but is not limited to - societal shaming of noncommittal sexual behavior of women, social protocol of "courting" that is expected to go one way, general rustiness of the dating game among married men, the fact that straight married men often let themselves go and are not someone one would like to have a purely sexual relationship with, etc etc

Only advice i could give - try to accept it, this is just how things are - most, if not all, open relationships are imbalanced in some way, becoming more skewed to either side during different periods of time.
Actually, another one - try to become a person women want to fuck without getting to know you. You might still be in the "husband mode", forgetting that this isn't what you are offering.

@3: People who aren't having problems don't write in. Don't assume that there's no such thing as happy, rewarding open relationships that are low on drama, conflict, and letters to advice columnists. They're out there.

Oh, and most of the letters I get from people in closed relationships? Total shit shows. That woman married to the diaper fetishist from last week? 2/3s of the letters in this week's column? Most of the calls on any given week's Lovecast? If you're not going to enter into X-style relationship because you read something from someone in one of those X-style Rs and it sounded complicated... you have to swear off open, closed, gay, straight, poly, vanilla, and kinky Rs too.

I will disagree with Dan slightly and say that the steps he mentioned (attending swingers parties with you, inquiring whether male friends are in open relationships, etc.) aren't just things she "can" do, they are things she SHOULD do based on the experience of countless men like you. Also, Dan is correct that we can't be certain what you are doing wrong since we can't observe you, here are some things that are definitely "right":
With your wife: see if there are any swingers organizations where you live. The sometimes refer to themselves as "lifestyle" clubs, so that may help you find them.
In swinger's clubs/groups: it's considered best practice for the woman to take the lead, or at least be 50/50 involved in making introductions. If you've read Dan for a long time, what he states about women having the true power in swinging is accurate, and your wife being involved in meeting new people will be an invaluable assist
Online: Your wife needs to be involved as well. At a bare minimum she should be in pictures with you (maybe not the main profile pic, but ones people can easily see when viewing your profile) and willing to confirm to potential partners that you are in an open relationship
Which online services should you set up profiles on?
OKCupid: It may be primarily for dating but it allows you to search for casual sex / hookups and I have met multiple friends with benefits there, one in an open relationship. As a tip, don't specify whether the woman is single or in a non-monogamous relationship when searching for casual sex.
Adult Friend Finder: My FWB's have all been on AFF and have found partners or couples to swing with there.
Couple's Cupid: This is more located in the PNW, but you can find people interested in swinging there (again, another area where it would be reasonable for your wife to step up and join in your search). There may be other more local organizations with similar setups where you live
FetLife: More of a kink social networking setup than dating (can't search for people who are single, or even filter on gender), but overlap between kink, swinging, and open relationships is high. Do you have some kink you can lay out on the table to create a profile? Awesome. Even if your interests are more vanilla, the previously mentioned overlap means it is best practice to have a FetLife profile so people can learn the basics about you. Your wife would also be supportive to set up a Fetlife profile for herself so you two can list your relationship status and her profile can state she is not looking for new partners except for couples who might be into swinging.
Hope this helps.

I have herpes, so that is roughly the equivalent of being a partnered man in an open relationship…lol…I kid…not really. My little triad isn’t really open so it isn’t much of an issue, although I support the gals getting out and getting laid if there’s someone they are into. Likewise, they support me getting out and fooling around with guys, which is much easier than trying to find women who are into casual sex, forgetting about the herpes, which just…no.

I do kind of disagree with Dan a bit on this, just on the disclosure part, for one on one relationships, when picking a partner, you are really only responsible for your own sexual health. For open or Poly people you have others to think about when it comes to sexual safety, there are also a lot of people that treat their polycule like a hivemind and just say no to any kind of KNOWN risk in the name of protecting everyone, even if that means they are still hooking up with randos who might or might not have something.

Herpes is a pretty big deal breaker for a lot of people. I have taken the approach of just putting it right at the top of any profile, just rip the band-aid off. Sure, I get basically no emails from people but that just saves me the trouble of investing time and then having them say no later. I still manage to do ok, especially when I do the reaching out. That gives me a chance to make some kind of impression first, without having to commit to a couple of dates and a bunch of chatting before dropping the bomb.

@4—“Try to become a person women want to fuck.” Oh, okay, then. That sounds pretty straightforward.

I always kinda wish there were photos and demographic information attached to the open relationship questions. From Dans callers one would assume at least 50% of the population is in some kind of consensually open relationship but I have a suspicion it is subcultural. Like, this is actually only for pretty, young, hip people who regularly get hit on by strangers. The old, the nerds, the rural, the 7s and below, this conversation is not for you.

@4 Judgmental much? Heck, did you even read the letter where he mentions he is getting dates and that the problem is when he mentions being in an open relationship is where the women bolt?
As for the body shaming and saying "you suck at dating" (both with no evidence), go spend time in a swinging community and you will discover that people of all ages and body types (not to mention genders and sexual interests). Even if he's middle aged and not in top shape, chances are there will be couples there who are similar age and body type looking to swing (or even some single women).
Finally, his wife doing her part to let his potential partners know that this is all on the up and up will help overcome some of the societal barriers, like the men who dishonestly say they are in a DADT open relationship.

@5, @6

Dan, no disputes here. It is the common headaches related specifically to opening up or polifying an existing closed relationship that I have no interest in/don't trust myself to deal with well. As I said before (and truly meant wo/ sarcasm)... best of luck to those that go for it!

Having lived in Denver for 27 miserable years my advice is to be quite up front and honest. College women will be more willing and accepting of you than someone say over 30.

The older you get; the more long term relationship minded you get and they want love and a commitment... this is your hint she's not for you and keep looking

Avoid women with children if you can; some women don't know how to keep their kids away from their swinging ways. It's really uncomfortable when the kids run in because she's on top having a great time.

@4 "try to become a person women want to fuck" - isn't that the catchphrase of pick-up artists?

@5: Yeah, Of the friends who've disclosed to me they are in mutual, honest open relationships, none have split up for that reason nor written to Dan.

The topic of relationships hasn't been breached yet (did you mean broached?) because most people would assume that you're single, based on the events you describe. I take it you don't wear a wedding ring and your personal/home life never came up at all? Hitting it off at a bar, exchanging contact information, making plans to go out. The standard assumption is that people interested in dating are not in a serious relationship. You can argue that it's on them to make this assumption, I suppose, and I'd say you're wrong.

I also question your phrase "scared away the women". I doubt they're scared, more like uninterested. They're probably looking for their own primary partner (if they're single themselves), or they think you're not worth the trouble (can you invite people to your house?), or they question the truth of your open relationship explanation ("my wife says it's ok").

@17 This is funny - a few LW's ago, Slog chat was telling the guy (SWAT - https://www.thestranger.com/savage-love/2018/06/12/27298971/savage-love) he was a total idiot for assuming the woman who came over to fuck him was interested dating and that it was inappropriate for him to make such an assumption (I generally agree). Yet here, you're telling this guy that people are free to assume you want to date them when you express sexual interest. Which do you think is more correct? Flirting implies a future relationship, or fucking does not imply a future relationship?

As a single woman who is exploring non-monogamy, if a dude waited until the third date to disclose his married/not-single status, I’d be pissed. Being HIV positive isn’t a dealbreaker (for me); lots of people with HIV partner up and live happy and sexed up lives with one or multiple people. Kinks can be accommodated in any number of ways, either by exploring as a couple or encouraging your partner to play outside the relationship. If I am looking for a primary partner (whether it’s for a monogamous or open relationship), you leaving off your relationship status until I like you? Is fucking cruel. Dating is already an emotionally mindfield. Be honest about your situation and what you’re looking for.

On OkCupid, I encounter a huge number of women who are non-monogamous. Granted I am looking in New York City, but New York can’t be the only area with non-monogamous women.

Candidly, non-monogamy is a huge dealbreaker for many people, and as someone not looking for a non-monogamous relationship, I really hate meeting someone online and having them disclose after we’ve met. So I would advocate being upfront.

You might also want to participate in the kink scene in your area, if you have any kinky side. Although kink and non-monagamy are not synonymous, there is a fair degree of overlap, so it could be a good avenue to meeting fun women open to casual sexual experiences with you.

Aaaahhhgghh! Solid advice, but for the love of gawd will you please fix crotchparcher to the seemingly intended crotch partner?!
(I even reset my damn forgotten pw to comment, it’s killing me! Have you been answering these and some ridiculously overpriced iPhone that fucks up every autocorrect unless it’s the word iPhone?;)

*crotchpartner *on some *fuck you iphone

LW - being non-monogamous should be a feature - not a bug - for your target audience, and your target audience should generally be women looking for guys just like you, i.e. NM and already in a committed relationship. Because those women are comparatively rare, chance encounters in bars, at the gym, etc. really shouldn't be where you're looking. Try instead OKC, other dating sites, and kink/fethish forums where such women are looking for YOU too. (sidenote - you'll have to filter out a lot of overweight, gamer, blue-haired wierdos - they dominate the ranks of NM women, it seems...)

The imagined ease with which NM wives get action is greatly overstated. When my wife and I were open, I got wayyy more action on the side than she did. Granted, I put in more effort - buy your sexy funtimes are out there waiting for you. Denver is a big town. Have fun exploring!

@21/22
I think it is supposed to be crotch parcher. As in the opposite of the wet panties a woman might have had until LW dropped the "married" bomb. Aka dealbraker, as Dan said.

Deal breaker, that is...

Nothing wrong with withholding information on a first date to see if there is any spark at all (a lot of times there isn’t) so trotting out the old, “By the way I already have a wife at home” line is offering too much information. But if things are going great, I’d definitely fess up first thing on date 2. “Look. I really liked our first date, but I’m not going to pull the wool over your eyes. Before we go any further I have something to tell you. If it’s a deal-breaker, let’s enjoy our meal and have some conversation and then we can wish each other well and go our separate ways. If it’s not a deal-breaker, it would make me very happy to get to know you better and take it from there.

Looking for women who will accept your married status in the general population is like looking for a specific needle in a haystack made out of needles. So wise up and improve your odds. Look in the haystack which already has the women who are more likely to accept your status. Unknown@7 had some good suggestions of places to start.

I disagree with Dan about disclosure. Unlike medical history, the existence of a spouse or significant other should be disclosed on the first date or preferably before. That's the only ethical thing to do.

Many guys in newly-open relationships make the mistake of trying to date like they did when they were single. That doesn't work.

If you want to be a successful poly guy, it's best to go where the poly women are. That means online dating or poly groups. Then your potential partners are self-selected to be open to non-monogamous relationships.

Also re: visiting swingers events/fetlife, if LW doesn't feel like he wants to join a a a particular "scene", he could bring his wife to the bars where he meets people to be a wing woman occasionally. I have been approached in this way for 3somes as well as wife shopping for someone for husband to fuck, and, while I have never taken anyone up (because I'm in relationship that is currently monogamous not because wife is a deal breaker) I have always found it charming.

@21 Monkeywrench, I'm pretty sure Dan meant "crotchparcher" as shown (as ill-advised as the expression may be -- not that I'm judging!), as an analog to "boner-killer," as in "something that turns women off."

This question has come up before and I've tried to qualify it with rules, etc. The best I can come up with is a "when it feels like" answer rather than a hard and fast one. For myself, here's how it worked. If you find that you are avoiding mentioning your spouse or directing the conversation in a way that causes you to avoid mentioning your spouse, then you are being dishonest. That is the time that you need to reveal it. Because I disagree that it should always be before sex- there are hookups where it is irrelevant as well as with stated NSA stuff. But if it's something different from that then you'll be having conversations and you'll notice if there are places in the conversation in which it would be natural to mention your partner- if that is happening, then you are being dishonest. This isn't necessarily always before sex- sometimes you have what both of you think is a hookup and then later start to get to know each other and realize it might be more.

TLDR- if the other person has even the slightest feeling that this could be about more than sex, you are being deceptive.

As to this guy's question specifically, I'd say he should be asking specifically for what he wants online if he's having trouble meeting women in the wild. Most women aren't going to be out looking for a married FWB so it seems to me that if he wants a FWB and he's married, then he's looking in the wrong place by not setting up a profile that states this explicitly or else looking in swinger communities. If he's looking for an NSA hookup (not an ongoing thing) then there is no reason to mention the wife or reveal the marriage at all. Just be clear that you are only looking to hookup.

I'm personally against withholding information. As someone who's HIV+, I put that right out in my profiles online. If we meet in a bar or something, I make it a point to have that conversation before we leave so that the other guy can gracefully back out.

Now, I'm in a privileged position because most of the gay men who would be on my shortlist are either HIV+ themselves or educated about it and know how to protect themselves. So the consequences of my disclosure aren't as severe for me as they are for LW.

But when I formed this policy, I came at it from an ethical point of view. If the roles were reversed, how would I want to be treated? Considered from that point of view, my course became crystal clear. And I do hope that I would have the moral fortitude to stick to it even if it meant I never got laid again.

LW, maybe it's a bit harder for you to put yourself into this lady's shoes, but if you were her, what would you want? How would you want to be treated?

Consider that question honestly, and the correct course of action will become clear to you.

PS: This golden rule stuff does cut both ways. If your wife is aware of this situation and is shrugging her shoulders at your dilemma while she's off shagging with her two boy toys, that's pretty inconsiderate and selfish behavior. I don't think it's too much to ask for both of you to cooperate to ensure that both of you benefit from your arrangement.

If only, there were rings people could wear on certain fingers, indicating marital status to those inclined to be looking for such things.

Or did I miss something?
(other than the boat)

Mr. P had decent success telling prospective sex partners he had "an arrangement" with his wife. Women who like cheaters assumed he was lying; women who didn't want a cheater asked more questions and found out it was true.

Otherwise the advice above about OKCupid, Fetlife, AFF, etc. is solid. List yourself as non-monogamous or polyamorous and look for women who already have a partner.

In particular, a non-monogamous man needs to demonstrate that he can handle his partners fucking other men without losing his shit. Dating women with established male partners is a good way to cross that hurdle.

Dan @5 -- I know, right! It has been almost 4 years since I pestered you for advice. Mr. P and I (and our respective partners) have found this works for us.

Too bad you're not bi. You'd probably have a much easier time finding guys willing to a fuck a married guy than you will women wanting to fuck a married guy. But, don't despair. Keep looking. Be patient. You'll find a woman into it.

As a woman who regularly seeks out men in open relationships to sleep with and have hopefully a medium/long term sexual relationship with. I'd be super pissed if I went in a date with someone who turned out to be in an open relationship and didn't tell me either before the date or shortly after meeting. I go into dates with different mindsets and if I've gone in thinking about it as a potential romantic connection and that's not a possibility yes I feel duped. If I slept with them and then found out I'd be super pissed off... It's a numbers game. Join an app, be upfront. There are definitely women out there looking for men in open relationships. Personally I'm single and I like to form these relationships because I can develop a good sexual relationship with them without emotional complications. (In theory) until I find someone to be in a romantic relationship with.

Ohhhh, that headline. Which has nothing to do with the letter itself and is bound to provoke "see? Women have all the privilege, guys are so hard done by, yadda yadda" -- I may have to skip reading this letter's comments.

As to the actual question, when must a person disclose that they are married and open, if you don't do this before you have sex, you are an asshole. Ideally, the answer is "as soon as possible." In this instance, it seems as if he's interested in dating rather than just hooking up -- he talks about a "third date" as something that may happen before sex does. I think he should tell her very early in their next date. As he's learned, being married is a dealbreaker for many -- that would be the case for those women no matter when he told them, so it's best that he saves both their time by telling sooner rather than later. As soon as it's obvious that there is mutual interest, I would say.

And maybe he's looking for poly love in all the wrong places if 100 percent of the women he's met won't date a poly guy. SIDNAFT should get an OKCupid profile and go to poly meetup groups. And good point about enlisting the wife's help in his pursuits. Good luck, SIDNAFT!

So I read the comments and was pleasantly surprised! Thanks, everyone but LateBloomer, for proving me wrong.

Dan @5/@6: Thank you for pointing out that if we were to assume from Dan's letters that all monogamous relationships are problematic, we'd all decide to be celibate. But, sure. If those who are biased against non-monogamy get those biases confirmed here and decide not to date us happy polys, they've saved us some drama, so thank you Dan for this service!

Dumnogenous @13: "Date women who aren't old enough to drink"? Ugh, what awful advice. Surely SIDNAFT had enough drama when he was that age? "Date women who are also in open relationships" is a far better recipe for happy ongoing secondary relationships.

Sporty @14: No, that's "try to trick women into thinking you're someone they want to fuck."

Sporty @18: False equivalency. The fact that Ms Drunk STATED that she didn't want to date implied that she didn't want to date -- that particular LW, at least. This cannot be extrapolated to "women don't want to date."

Monkey @21: Yes, it's "crotchparcher," ie something that will dry up a woman's crotch. A fantastic term, IMO!

Good points from @19, @23 and @27. I agree with NotYourMom: I am in fact poly, and if someone waited until the third date to disclose that they were in a significant relationship, I'd think that person was a slimy liar and run a mile.

100% do not hide your married status. Like, wear a ring or drop "my wife" in the next conversation you have - before you make her shave her legs and put on makeup for that date. Some women are into poly, some aren't. However, a guy who hides his partner in the hopes that he can get a date first and then spring it on her now that she's already there is fundamentally dishonest and an absolute dealbreaker, even to a lot of poly people. If you're willing to start out with a lie of omission, how many more will there be? How many more times is there going to be some "oh, by the way, I didn't tell you about this earlier because I thought you might not like it, but now that you're already here..."

Also, who cares how many partners your wife has? Whether or not she's getting laid has no bearing on your obligation not to lie (including lies of omission) to other people. If you want to be successfully poly, one of the most essential things you are going to have to learn is to handle your own shit and your own relationships, and not pass drama between your metamours. Absolutely no "well, I wasn't happy about something that partner 1 did, so I did something shitty to partner 2."

P.S. I agree and disagree with Dan's advice on how to meet poly women. You do need to go to the poly community - where the poly women are. Like ThatOtherGuy @ 27 said, you're trying to date like you're single, but you're not - that's a recipe for failure. If you have a niche interest, you need to go to the place where the niche interest is. I disagree that having your wife find your partners will help much. Lots of women find it very creepy when another woman starts pimping her husband to them. 1.) There's an assumption of "I'm sorry, is your man so crap that he can't get his own women? Do you wipe his ass for him too? Pass." 2.) Unless she opens with "hello, would you like to fuck my husband," the women will assume she's approaching them on her own behalf, and lots of women have very unpleasant reactions to "I thought you were my friend, but no, you were pulling some creepy '1st-degree-removed' friendzone shit in order to get a human blowup doll for your husband, so he'll stop sulking about your own boyfriends;" or "I thought you were flirting with me, but no, you're looking for a vagina to throw at your husband."

Also should add that even if you go into a first date with all upfront, please remember it's still a first date. Just because the woman you are dating is interested in sleeping with a married man she may for whatever reason not be interested in you. It's not a forgone conclusion. I have found that some men I've dated with a view to starting a sexual relationship come expecting it to happen which for me is a turn off. I want to decide if I want to have sex with you. Also go dressed nice and shower etc etc. I cannot believe the amount of men who put no effort into a first meeting especially when they know sex is already on the table (which frankly makes it even worse!) Basic hygiene please people!!!

@4. Yasunori. I was pleased to hear your voice after the first three male or male-aligned contributions.

I don't have much sympathy on a point of principle with husbands in poly marriages who can't get outside lays. (Of course I will have sympathy with virtually every individual). The double standard about dogging is one, on the whole, which is much more adverse to women. I think my advice would be to 'make openness your philosophy'--to be articulate to the intelligent, thoughtful women you meet that your relationship is open for a reason, is stronger for the openness (though that may not be to the point) and that you're happier for your wife fucking other men and your fucking other women--presuming that some of these women will be on the market for some respectful, unembarrassed sex. The presumption that 'men want it more than women' is another I'd think biased. Sure, women don't want to run the risk of it blowing up in their faces--of being beaten up, of their being shamed....

The LW sounds as if his marriage has evolved to a place where it's poly, but that he hasn't put much thinking into the whys and wherefores--the gender politics, if you will. I guess he should. It would improve his chances.

Traffic Spiral @38: I agree 100% with everything you've said. Applause!

Agreed that it's good for a wife to help in an indirect way- have a presence on web profiles so it's easy for a potential date to click through and see that you are both on board. Introduce him to people you know, help him network, suggest him to that friend looking for a third. But I balk at the idea that I owe him my attendance and/or participation at parties or swing clubs to keep things "fair".

It sounds like the wife wants connection with her lovers. Some of us are non-monogamous and demisexual, and swinging is not for every non-monogamous person. It's certainly not for me- and if my husband insisted on it to make things "fair", I'd choose to go back to monogamy. If he can't respect my boundaries, he doesn't deserve an open (or any) relationship with me, end of story.

Anemone (#39) has some excellent points. Nothing is more of a turnoff than entitlement... unless it's entitlement combined with a lack of effort. Even if you don't hit it off with your date, make a good enough impression and perhaps you'll end up meeting someone else through them. Disclose any deal breakers before you meet, and enjoy the time spent getting to know each other, regardless of the outcome.

Aw, thanks, BiDanFan.

Yes to Spiral and BiDan. Disclose. Do it both subtly and non-self consciously. Wear your wedding ring to bars. Put your full marital status in online profiles. By "full" I mean say that you're married, open, and that your wife has friends that she sees. Answer inquiries about the ring (if there are any) the same as you do in the profile. Also, in the getting to know you flirtatious stage before sex, ask about her marital status/relationship status. Do that conversationally. It makes it easier for her to inquire about what she wants to know about you.

I don't know where you live- because that may matter a lot - but here in DC it would be difficult for a man to be in an open marriage like the one you describe and be successful with "mainstream" dating (i.e., picking up women at bars, on mainstream dating apps without clearly stating on the app, upfront, that you are married, etc.), at least if you are going for the more attractive women in the crowd. I would say I'm a very attractive woman (by DC standards- so keep that in mind! haha) and I can only think of 1 or 2 occasions where someone in a non-monogamous relationship/marriage approached me, either on line or in person. And for me it was a total and absolute deal breaker. When you are a very attractive woman getting approached by multiple men every single day, the prospect of getting involved with someone who is married- open or not- is just a non-starter. Why go through the trouble? I can fuck whoever I want, whenever I want, so dealing with that complication is just not necessary. So if you live in a similar relatively conservative area, you may consider approaching women who just don't have as many options. A beautiful woman doesn't need to screw married men! Also, if someone told me that at anytime after our initial meeting, I would go ballistic on them for wasting my time. A younger me might have even sought revenge somehow (now I am more laid back so I'd probably end it with just screaming at them). I'm assuming that in hipper areas, on the West Coast and the like, more people are into non-monogamy and its more accepted, so maybe there it is different- I wouldn't know.

I think that women have it easier finding men at a younger age, but for older women the tables are turned. Since women live longer than men there are way more dating women than men by age 50. It's two to one by age 60. I have experienced the opposite problem of the letter writer as an older woman. Maybe younger open men need to hit on older single women of the balance is to be maintained.

@45:
"I can fuck whoever I want, whenever I want, so dealing with that complication is just not necessary."

Wow, CosmicPrincess - you sound like a walking human shit show, utterly convinced of your own paper thin gold plating and - as your words would indicate - also at least as deeply vapid, ugly-on-the-inside, and dripping with entitlement. The impotent rage expressed by the incels - you are their female antithesis, awarding a kernel of truth to their bullshit worldview.

I wouldn't touch you with a 20 foot pole.

Any tips for someone (me!) in an open marriage looking for a relationship, as opposed to just sex? Even here, most of the comments suggest that “dating like a single person” is a bad idea and that a married person isn’t looking for love, but as a poly person, that falling in love feeling is exactly what I’m looking for in my non-marriage relationships. I don’t have any problem meeting people on apps but I find those interactions aren’t natural enough for feelings to develop. Meeting people in the usual way (friends, coworkers, etc) is fraught since most people in my day to day life aren’t looking to get involved with a married woman.

DatingBlogger @46: "Date older women" is MUCH better advice than "date younger women." Not only are we more plentiful, we're more likely to be past the "wanting to settle down" stage and happy to have a part-time partner who doesn't take up too much of our time. (By "we" I of course mean me.) And we don't expect perfection, unlike CosmicPrincess.

CTMcMull @47: CosmicPrincess just struck me as realistic. It's the married, less attractive men who are constantly hitting on women like her who are "dripping with entitlement." I think her point that men like SIDNAFT need to be realistic about what sort of women will go for men like him is worth bearing in mind.

SomethingElse @48: In my experience the best way to meet other poly people is to have poly friends. I know a network of poly folks, most of whom seem to either be dating or have dated each other. Long-term things, not just fuck buddies. If you don't have any poly friends, join a poly meetup group. Also, I'd say be open to a FWB relationship that might grow into more. I was only looking for FWBs and now I've been with two of them, in a far more deeply connected way, for four and six-and-a-half years. Remember the Supremes' advice -- you can't hurry love! That goes for poly folks too. Good luck.

SomethingElse@48 -- following up on BiDanFan's good advice, I'll add -- be open to friendships evolving into more. (But not with coworkers!)

If you're kinky, hang out without your established partner at kink events -- not everyone kinky is polyamorous, but many are.

And, generally, go out and about without your established partner. Take classes, go dancing, etc. Make your own friends, be warm and chatty about your new explorations, and give it time.

Dude, why are you trying to find women in bars? As you've noticed, the default assumption is that you're looking for someone monogamous. Why not look for non-monogamous women on Fetlife, OK Cupid, whatever other apps out there (I'm not looking these days so I'm sure there are ones I'm missing) -- where you can lay your cards on the table? They are out there.
Meeting people at non-monogamous events is also a good idea, and Dan's right to suggest you should go together. I will say, personally I would not opt for the swinger scene though -- as a cis woman I feel too much like I'm going as a bargaining chip, and your wife might feel that way too -- but there are other non-monogamous communities out there and hopefully you can find some in your area. A good approach is to go to parties primarily with the intent to meet people, don't assume you'll get laid right away, but at least you being married will not be a deal-breaker (or even a surprise), and you can take it from there.
It can definitely work. I'm in an open triad (have been for about 10 years), and the guy of our trio has more outside relationships than the other two of us combined. (He's more motivated, surprise surprise.) All the women he's currently dating knew about his relationship status before they got together.

BiDanFan @49: I agree with you about the "entitlement" thing. The thing about poly is that you are, to put it a little bluntly, a 3/4 eaten meal. A lot of what most people would expect for a full meal has already been taken off the plate, and you've got someone else's bite-marks all over you. Now, there's people out there that don't mind sharing their meals with the right person, or having "just one or two french fries" off someone else's plate. However, if you go somewhere for lunch and you get unexpectedly served someone else's half-eaten sandwich and a few fries grabbed off a fellow diner's plate, you're gonna be pissed, because that's not what you went out for. You might also be like "I'm not a hobo, I don't have to settle for half-eaten sandwiches!"

CosmicPrincess is essentially right. Poly does come with extra complications, so if she doesn't get any "benefit" from those complications (like getting someone who is ok with her own poly lifestyle, or getting someone that she couldn't get otherwise) there's not much reason for her to date a poly person, as opposed to a monogamous one.

@ctmcmull: calm your tits. A woman's not "stuck up" just because she's aware of what her options are and chooses to exclude the less-appealing-to-her options. Women are not the trustees of a charity for equitable pussy distribution. You aren't being oppressed just because a woman doesn't want to touch your dick (because you're married or for any other reason).

The correct answer is: second date.

You disclose on the second date.

Don't bother disclosing on the first date because there's so many other things to talk about. There's so many other reasons to not have a second date. Especially today with the popularity of online dating date number 1 is almost like a trial run for the "real" date.

On date number 2 you have already established that you are considering "dating" each other, so at that point you can start to lay down some other cards.

Obviously don't fuck on the first date.

I’m sorry to start the thread off with what was meant to be a flip comment but apparently comes across as something an incel would say. I still stand by the gist of it though.

This is a sex advice column, and the people who read and contribute to Slog are by definition sexually motivated. The gay guys and the women who date men I think sometimes forget that, modern values notwithstanding, the majority of women on the dating scene are not motivated as much by sex as by the desire for a primary partner or for companionship of some kind. I think it’s safe to say that, yes? I’m not saying all women all the time, I’m saying this is the prime motivator for a lot of women. So that removes a large swath of the dating population for a guy who is just looking for a fuckbuddy (assuming he’s a straight-up and honest guy who doesn’t string people along, which this LW sounds like he is).

Of those remaining who are interested in or are open to a physical connection, the overwhelming majority of them would consider marriage a dealbreaker, open or not. Either they find the idea offputting or offensive, or like @45 they just don’t want the hassle: loaded down with obligations, a busy schedule and no place to entertain is not a sexy look. If I were a woman looking for a fling or an NSA connection, I would absolutely be going for the single guy who’s got lots of time for me and a big empty house to play in. And the middle-aged, married guy who hits on women at bars is the one they tell their girlfriends about to illustrate how awful the dating scene is.

So as a married guy, unless you’ve got serious charisma or lots of spare time and money, you’re not bringing a lot to the table, from the point of view of the woman who doesn’t read or contribute to Slog, which—again, just to drive this point home—is the majority of women. So, married men of the world in open marriages, as I said @1 you’re up against formidable odds, don’t have any illusions about that, and be advised accordingly.

I’m not saying it’s impossible, and there’s been a lot of encouragement and constructive advice on this thread on how you might make it happen (other than “Make yourself fuckable” which, as advice goes, ranks right up there with “Just do better!” and “Maybe try a little harder!”). But based on my own experience of open marriage (one and a half years, countless online exchanges, several uninspiring dates, one brief but okay fling), it is simply not worth the time and effort, and takes too much of a toll of one’s primary relationship. If I were still motivated by (and cleared for) extra-marital sex today, I would be going straight to a sex worker. I realize that my own shortcomings play into this—I think I hit all four of drjones’ disqualifying criteria @10–so take my view for what it’s worth.

But if I could have an opinion based on my own experience, hamish2 @17, without being compared to guys who murder random women, that would be just tip top.

@LateBloomer: Or instead of trying to persuade single monogamous women that you're what they're looking for even though you really don't fit their criteria, seek out women in the poly community who actually do want poly guys because they share the same lifestyle.

@52/BiDanFan: I find you metaphor for the poly dynamic interesting because it actually encapsulates many non-poly people's fears or concerns about having multiple ongoing relationships: your partner is used by other lovers, while you're left to scrounge for leftovers in the form of someone else's well-used partner. I wonder if you really seeing being poly in quite those terms.

Of course, people's other fear is seeing their partner feasting at a buffet of lovers, while being unable to get even a taste. I'm sympathetic to men or women who open up their relationship and see their partner deeply engaging with others, while they sit in front of a computer looking for partners, and I wonder how thoroughly couples taking about opening up their relationship discuss what happens when there is such an imbalance. One turn-off I've encountered when talking with poly women has been raising that for discussion and having them reply that gets into "score keeping." Naturally, when I hear such a reply, I surmise that they will prioritize their own sexual adventures over our relationship, and don't want to feel that anything would limit their sexual freedom, including our relationship. Here, I would note, that it's not just married men who fail to disclose their partnered status. I've put in a lot of time exchanging messages with women who fail to disclose that until late into our first date. And that felt too late to be hearing that information, especially given the complex relationships in which she was already engaged.

Bi, I would think that poly people would think of the poly dynamic like a chef's menu at a fancy restaurant. Many small portions of elegantly crafted food that you are able to sample, but aren't meant to fill you up.

Still sticking to the "by date 3" advice, eh Dan? It's one of the few things I disagree with you on. I agree that societal norms fuck up peoples' stance on the issue, but it is what it is, and I can't advocate potentially wasting the time of people who aren't down with it.

When I was in an open relationship, I disclosed it in the first line my online dating profile, and I didn't suffer for it in the least. I was very successful in finding women who were interested on Tinder, OkCupid, and Bumble.

@10, Hahahaha! If you really think nerds have a hard time getting laid, you haven't been to a science fiction convention. 100% of the poly people I know are in the convention scene in one way or another, and the general theory is, if you can't get laid at a convention, you can't get laid. There are a few angry, incel types who don't, but in general the ratio of enlightened, interesting men is very high in the nerd community.

As with any personality quirk, unusual interest, kink, or other special cases, you need to find your people. Dan says this all the time, but it really boils down to finding like-minded people and exploring your options there. It may take a few tries (the first poly meetup I went to was filled with the most boring people ever) but your people are out there, waiting for you to find them.

@Sublime Afterglow: the problem with your metaphor is that in the chef's menu, everything on your plate is still yours - that's just a lot of very short monogamous relationships. If you're poly, you're going to have to learn to share. You gotta be ok with other people taking bites out of your plate, and you gotta be ok with taking bites out of other people's plates. You quite simply can't ignore that there are other people in your relationship, and in your partners' relationships, and all of those have a direct impact on your life. Priorities, time, space, emotional energy, attention, energy for sex, money for fun activities, all of these things are finite and do have to be divided up among people. Trying to ignore those very real issues in favor of some pseudo-deep "love is infinite" creed is a recipe for failure.

If all you have to offer in a relationship is the equivalent of a bite of your sandwich and 3 fries, that's fine, because there are a lot of people out there that really only want a bite and 3 fries (usually because they have their own pizza or just aren't hungry at the moment). Go hang out around people who like sharing all the food and you can do that all you like.

But don't try and present yourself as offering a full meal because philosophically it offends you that some people don't like sharing food off their plates. You present yourself as a restaurant offering a full meal and then go "actually it's just a bite of this sandwich and 3 fries - but I didn't tell you because then I thought you wouldn't come in and order anything - but now that you're here and have spent time looking at the menu and the ambiance, don't you want to stay and try?" people will tell you to fuck off.

@48. Something Else. Well, the same advice that @23 ctmcmull & @35 anemone gave. Meetups, an honest and carefully-crafted online profile (or a handful) and openness. Their advice was clear and helpful. Having poly friends, being in poly networks. You are dipping your toe into a whole culture. It’s worth it--'come on in, the water's lovely', the English say; the people there will likely prove more congenial to you than straight married monogamous types.

I don't set out to date women (I'd only ever be on the fringes of the straight partnered world), but I've always been struck by how many straight women there are just looking to fuck. For comfortable, happy sex--not necessarily something leading to a relationship. Be interesting, intelligent, mentally flexible, accomplished, charismatic or funny--or just be a Mensch --and these women find their way to you. Don't bemoan your life if you're not getting anywhere.

The vast majority of straight women probably still are looking for an exclusive relationship. And why not? This is their ideal, their norm. You will get nowhere with these people and should not waste their time by intruding yourself.

'Try harder' is comprehensible as advice. I think we all know what it means. Like, go to a gym. If your 10k time is 50 minutes, try to get it down to 40. Or whatever it is you do. Read a hundred books a year, not twenty. Eat roughage. Practice mental hygiene--however you do this--meditation, mindfulness, 'flow' in work, downtime, self-examination, prayer. Cook for yourself or eat healthily. Have short- and medium-term plans. Always be learning something new--with new people. We know all this. There's no secret to any of it. It’s just hard to do. (For anyone affected by mental illness or just with a persistent pattern of sadness, very hard).

I agree with sugarloaf and Traffic Spiral that it can be unreasonable to try to rope a female partner into finding fuckbuddies. The gender politics of its being 'on her' is rather unappetising too. Appearing on a joint profile--this, though, is quite above board and not a 'big ask'.

@61 Harriet—was that comment directed my way? If so, I have to disagree. If someone asks for advice, one assumes they are already trying as hard as they know how, and are finding it has no result, or not the desired result. They are asking you what they should do differently. If you respond, “Just try harder,” it’s unhelpful and a little condescending, as if you don’t believe they’re already doing the best they can.

Success is not always a result of more effort, it’s often doing things better or smarter. But if it’s persistence that’s required, “You got this, just stick with it,” (whatever “it” is) might be a more supportive and helpful thing to say.

Harriet_by_the_bulrushes @61 -- linked profiles make sense, but a shared profile is no way for either person to meet anyone. Prospective partners (whether casual or serious) are going to want to hear your voice, not some mishmash of both people's voices, written by committee.

LateBloomer @54, I agree, sex workers are great for many people who want sexual intimacy but aren't finding success dating. If you (generic you) see one a few times, she'd probably be able to give good advice on how to tackle the dating scene.

As for poly women picking single men over married men, my experience differs from yours. A single guy seems inherently poor relationship material (why hasn't anyone else wanted him?) (unless he's recently bereaved/divorced, in which case he's not emotionally ready for a relationship). And if he's great, well, Mr. Single won't be single long, and then she'll probably make him break up with me.

Whereas a guy who is married to someone who has her own other partners, and they both have experience managing multiple relationships -- that's a lot more attractive to me and women like me, who don't want to cause any problems at home (our home or the guy's home).

DrJones @10
I always kinda wish there were photos and demographic information attached to the open relationship questions. From Dans callers one would assume at least 50% of the population is in some kind of consensually open relationship but I have a suspicion it is subcultural. Like, this is actually only for pretty, young, hip people who regularly get hit on by strangers. The old, the nerds, the rural, the 7s and below, this conversation is not for you.

+++ +++ +++

Really? Yes, the rural can be kinda stuck. Everyone can see your business and the dating pool is small.

But for the rest...

One of my boyfriends just turned 60. He’s got six regular girlfriends and some FWBs. Most of his girlfriends are in their 40s and 50s, though he has had girlfriends and FWBs anywhere from 35 years younger to 15 years older than he is. (Yes, he goes to swing clubs with a very busy woman in her 70s.) And as others have mentioned upthread, people out of their breeding years can be very open to pulling a few fries of someone else’s plate. So no, poly is not restricted to the young.

Nerds don’t seem to be in the swing scene much, but they dominate the poly and kinky scenes. So no, nerdliness is not a disqualifier. Google

7s and below? An issue in the swing scene. Not so much the kink and poly scenes. The most active poly guy I know is obese and warty. (Latebloomer, we’ve met. You are not obese and warty. Don’t pretend.)

If you’re looking for examples, google Ferrett Steinmetz. Gaze upon his sexy, sexy images. He’s a science fiction writer, goes to cons, lives in Suburban Cleveland, looks older than 48... and is a minor polyamory celebrity.

@Traffic Spiral: I’m not really interested in arguing over metaphors, as it really is meaningful.

@Alison - yes, exactly! I mean, my partners are 10s in my book, but I'm pushing 50 and don't have the hubris to think I rank over 7 myself.

As for the sharing food metaphor, it doesn't work for me. I'm not a dish, to be shared. I'm a person, and I connect with other people, my friends, my family, my lovers. If I don't have enough time for someone, then oh, well, we're not compatible. That still doesn't make me a plate of french fries and a shake.

Traffic @52: Whoa. When I'm on a date with someone, I am 100% with that person. I don't understand how a poly person is "a 3/4 eaten meal" any more than, say, a person who travels extensively for work or has time-consuming hobbies would be. My only limitation is that I can't spend several nights a week with someone. It's not as if having more than one partner diminishes my desire for each of them, if that's what your analogy is presuming? It's not as if I say, "I just gave Joe a blowjob the other day, therefore I have no desire to give Jim a blowjob tonight." That is not how it works.

Late @54: Do you have similar sympathy for gays and lesbians? People who won't date the same sex vastly outnumber people who aren't up for non-monogamous/casual opposite-sex relationships. And how about trans folk? The pool of people who will date them is even smaller. And how about disabled people? Point is that there are a lot of categories of people who are struggling against common dealbreakers, not just married men, whom I have less sympathy for because hello, they are already having sex with their wives!

Sublime @56: You're quoting Traffic Spiral, not me. The idea that people with multiple partners are "used up" sounds like some incel bullshit to me. Anyone who thinks that way, I will thank to stay far away from the poly dating pool. I do prefer your analogy of polyamory being tapas while monogamy is a large pizza! :) It is a case of getting our needs met by multiple people rather than looking for just one who can meet all our needs. The "three-quarters eaten meal" implies that there's no overlap, though, that anything I share with Joe I'm not sharing with Jim, which is not true.

Turible @57: Perhaps people who wait to disclose aren't getting rejected because they're partnered, but because they waited to disclose? Hmm.

Liz @58: Great point -- the geek, and the goth, scenes are other great places to meet poly people. Geeky goths in particular :)

Traffic @59: Thanks for the explanation, that does make more sense. Poly people need to disclose this up front because if you have the expectation that they will be able to meet 100% of your relationship needs, you are barking up the wrong tree. If you're possessive enough to think of another person as "your plate" -- oy vey -- you shouldn't be dating someone who thinks of themself as their OWN plate! But, so many monogamous relationships fail because people go into them expecting the other person to meet ALL of their needs. At least when you are poly, you know that this will never be the case; you have the option to, as you say, sample a different plate if you want something sweet but your partner is umami.

Harriet @61: If they're not trying to date as a couple (ie seeking threesomes), a joint profile is a terrible idea.

Late @62: I don't know, a well-timed "just try harder" has on occasion prompted me to stop moaning about how hard it is to meet women and go on a targeted OKCupid binge, occasionally with good results. So sometimes it is what one needs to hear.

@62. Late Bloomer. It wasn't specifically directed at you, in that the recommendations were too general to be helpful to any particular person. It was sort-of addressed to your ideas and broad viewpoint.

Take in toto, people are a bit fascistic. By this I mean that the youngest person, the fittest, the strongest, the most attractive, the richest, the most charismatic, the most accomplished tends to get their pick of the world's prizes. These include casual sex--but I would still think they include them a lot less than the programmatic Randian would want to make out. The straight woman who's been single for a while, who wants to have sex, who doesn't think it a good time for a relationship because of work or the lasting effects of a break-up--this woman probably isn't going to choose 'you' or 'me'--if you are a married guy, older than 40, not in great physical shape, or if 'I' am an effeminate, career high-flying bisexual. But this should be no skin off our nose. We are not in the running for this kind of sex anyways; it isn't (in all probability) really what we want.

'Wanting to have sex with a woman other than your wife': surely this is not that enticing a proposition to a straight woman? Too needy, insufficiently personalised or particular. I live in a part of a world blessed with spectacular scenery. In two weeks' time, I'm going camping/hiking with 'Heidi' and 'Stefanie', a gay couple, with their own child and probably another in tow. They would be taking me on primarily because they like my cooking and to help with the kids. I'd put the chances of sex as about 20% (knowing what I do about their relationship, I'd put their chances of having sex with each other at about 50%). The chances of an interesting discussion about patent law, computer science, cyborgs or bionic feminism would be about 80%, and of my making a joke about 'metoo' meaning my wanting to be a woman or wanting to join in grouping about 99%. If it were only about the sex, I wouldn't go; I'd go to get sucked off where I could easily get sucked off. It is too easy to sex as something separate from our relationships and the rest of our lives. This is a fantasy, and usually a disabling fantasy--one that perpetuates a sense of isolation or even grievance. Good general advice is surely to look to your own relationships and see whether they have the potential to develop in the direction of getting someone more outside sex, if that is what they want. And, yes, keep trying.

@63. Erica. What you said. Yes. I meant a profile where there's a link ('in a relationship with') to your wife's/partner's profile, even if your wife isn't actually searching. A joint profile is not right for the purpose of one person finding fuckbuddies they i.e. he, in this case, will play with by themselves.

For some people the psychic costs (resentment, the feelings of exclusion, let alone the standard jealousy) of poly are too great. I'm talking about straight people here--I would always have been gay 'realistic' before I even knew the word 'poly'.

Congrats, Harriet @69!

The theme seems to be "don't try to date single people, just other poly people," which is a good rule of thumb, but there are exceptions. I became poly during a post-breakup phase of wanting to, well, sample a lot of plates and not date anyone seriously. So it didn't matter that some of the people I hooked up with had primary partners. I didn't envision that some of those people would remain in my life for years. So the advice amends to "date people who are open to dating someone partnered," and in order to do that, you have to let your dating pool know you're partnered. You won't be "scaring off" people who aren't down with that, you'll be "weeding them out." And that's a good thing.

@BiDanFan @EricaP I'd like to ask your advice on something. I'm open to a variety of relationship types, as long as they're ethical. I don't feel like I have one distinct orientation other than needing to feel a strong connection (an open thing that restricted feelings would not be for me). Beyond that, whether it's monogamous, non-monogamous, FWB, primary or secondary or solo poly, casual dating, I really care more about the individual dynamic and what works best for the specific people involved. I never go into it with a specific goal that way. For that reason, I've never specifically sought out poly people, though I would definitely swipe right on profiles of people identifying as poly as easily as those who do not identify that way.

With OKC, is it an option to select multiple orientations? If not, would it maybe be best to select poly but then elaborate in my profile? I ask this because I've found my FWB relationships have been fulfilling and will often go on for years but they also lack continuity because the FWB partners will occasionally engage in monogamous (or "monogamous" as per the 3rd paragraph of Erica P's @33) relationships and we break during those times. The lack of continuity is getting a little old and I found myself very much envying your current setup, @BiDanFan (as described in @49).

A Franklin Award to Ms Fan (in calling herself an Older Woman). If memory serves, it was Benny who popularized the concept that became the rhyme about not yelling/telling/swelling.

I'm not sure whether to salute Ms or Msr Erica, or have them share one salute between them (they don't get two).

I shall avoid recommending that LW take up bridge, as, even though the demographics would seem to be in his favour, I'd hate to think of the game's developing into a means of seduction.

FutureCat @71: In OKCupid (just logging in to refresh my memory), they keep tinkering with the non-monogamy settings. It looks like currently, you can set your own relationship status as single, "seeing someone," or married. I got a notification advising poly people to mark themselves as "seeing someone." You can also select a relationship type of monogamous, non-monogamous, or leave that field blank. When you search, you can select monogamous or non-monogamous as criteria, or again leave it blank. If you left it blank you'd get all the profiles. So I guess for you, I'd go with single, leave the relationship type blank, and elaborate in my profile.

@BiDanFan @73 Thank you. Very helpful info about the settings, though "single" with no specific relationship goal is already how I operate on other sites and it doesn't attract poly people. It generally attracts other single people who either want exclusivity with me or want to continue seeking exclusivity (or at least one-sided exclusivity) elsewhere while we do the FWB thing. I was just wondering if there was some way to attract poly people but without excluding non-poly people since I can go either way but rarely encounter/attract poly people.

FutureCat @74: Then my suggestions are: 1. You could select single as your status and non-monogamous as your relationship type, as you'll then show up in searches for people who are non-monogamous. (But you'd then exclude those who are looking exclusively for folk who are monogamous.) 2. Message people yourself! Don't wait for them to message you! 3. Have two different profiles, one for monos and one for nons.
You say that listing yourself as single has ruled out polys on other sites, but perhaps try it on OKC -- that site is far more poly friendly. Worth a try.

@futurecatlady -- have you tried going to poly events and getting to know more poly people? I'm not actively searching myself, but I've heard OKC is losing a lot of its appeal as it shifts to be more like Tinder/Grindr.

Bi @67–I’m not actually looking for sympathy. My comment @54 was written with the LW in mind, spelling out some basic points he maybe hadn’t considered or wasn’t aware of when he thought about how great having an open marriage would be. Based on his letter I feel he didn’t get the memo about straight men in open marriages. Anyone who is surprised that women find marriage, open or not, a dealbreaker, and men find it NBD, is a guy who hasn’t thought things through in much detail and maybe needs a heads up.

But since you ask, I find it terribly sad when anyone wants to feel wanted and doesn’t get to experience that. Or to feel loved.

Maybe sharing my story can help. I've had a mini tryst with a married man. He lives out of town and we've seen each other 3 times over the course of a year. I knew he was married from before he hit on me. We met when I was out at a bar. He mentioned his wife and kids in the group convo. I am very much looking for a serious LTR as opposed to one-off flings. So this is not something I would pursue normally at all. That being said, when he made it very clear he wanted to hook up with me. I figured why not. He seemed like a nice guy and I wasn't doing anyone else at the time. The few times I've spent with him have been fun and hassle-free. My advice is to get to know the person you want to f*ck. Then just be straightforward about what you want (sex) and being married. If they say no, keep it moving.

@BiDanFan Thanks for the tips! It's not that I feel listing myself as single on other sites has deterred poly people, I just very rarely encounter profiles specifying poly orientation. If it's true that OKC has a higher proportion of poly folks or some way to search for them in a targeted way, that appeals to me.

@EricaP I haven't yet searched specifically for poly guys since I'm open to mono and poly and non-mono FWBs and thought it would be unnecessarily limiting. But after encountering so many situations where people want it both ways and have a hard time with their partners sharing the same level of freedom, maybe it would be smarter to search for poly dudes and not as limiting as I thought (barring one penis policy situations). I tried OKC a couple years ago and hated it and had much better luck with Tinder, so if it has become more like Tinder, that would be bonus for me.