No turning back the clock. Perhaps you can get a better read but revealing your "irrational" trepidation and see how he reacts.
trust your gut,
and don't second guess your instincts.
There are plenty of fish in the sea.
@1 "by" revealing. Sorry!
When I first read this column eight (!) years ago, I totally agreed with Dan, but since then I've spent a lot time in New York's kink community and went out on dates with a lot kinky women. Often a date would transition from vanilla talk to kink, during which there was detailed conversation about kinks, some of which are more intense than others. Typically, these conversation were a way to assess whether we were kinky-compatible, to discuss hard and soft limits, and to get a sense about how we each liked to engage in certain kinks, which is a necessary preliminary to actually engaging with someone, particularly if that play will happen outside a public play place. So I'm no longer convinced that detailed discussion of varsity-level kinks on a first date is per se a red flag, especially if TOAD herself broached the topic of sex and porn, and her date sussed out that TOAD enjoys intense kinky sex.
Where he may have gone wrong is that he is relatively inexperienced in discussing his kinks, so instead of describing an interest in consensual nonconsent, he talked about "rape play." I've had the opposite experience in which newbie women discuss their "rape fantasies." It's quite likely given the age of TOAD that her date was also inexperienced, rather than untrustworthy. So if TOAD liked this guy, I think she should have seen him again, to make a better informed judgment about him.
Importantly, if she does decided to engage in any kink activities with him, she should have a very detailed discussion about how a scene would unfold, safe words, and limits. That discussion should take place before any date on which she would engage in kink with him, and if she has any sense that he might not be willing to engage with her in a way that she is comfortable she should cancel any plans to meet. TOAD should also be in the habit of having a check-in call with a trusted friend who knows where she is and who she is with, and her date should know that she will expect a call at a pre-determined time.
I disagree with Dan's advice. Just because someone is fully open with their kinks doesn't mean you should base their entire character on it. Maybe he's simply sick of going out on 3-4-5 dates and when someone finally "feels comfortable" he tells them what he's into and they bolt, forcing him to start all over again. Dating is one of the most annoying processes to go through.
I wonder if Dan would give the exact same advice today?
Urgutha @ 5 - If he reposted it, we should perhaps assume that he still felt his answer was appropriate.
Then again, maybe those reposts are chosen by some unpaid intern who doesn't give a shit.
It ultimately doesn't matter. She did the right thing in listening to her gut instinct. She can look back later and wonder if maybe she overreacted, but at least she's there to wonder at all. So often women are socialised to defer to logic rather than intuition, when intuition is the thing that will protect them. Whether it was in his words, his tone, his attitude towards her, there was something about the situation that triggered her protective instinct, and she was perfectly within her rights to skedaddle. She doesn't owe him an explanation or a second chance.
Group sex with gender imbalances? I'm going to have to remember that.
Basically what Sublime said. It's not what he's into that's the problem and it's not when he told her what he's into that's the problem. It's the way he expressed it. Since the LW had no way to know if he was a creep or just chose words in an inexperienced way, she left. This makes sense since she has to prioritize her comfort and safety. But if the LW is still interested, she could have a follow up conversation in a public place to clarify- ask questions about it. His response might reveal which it is. It might do him some good to hear some feedback too if she's interested enough in him to have that chat.
My experience is that most of the time I've wondered if a guy was deliberately saying something in a way to be a creep or to display power or resentment, it turned out that this was exactly what he was doing. So I'm a big fan of gut trusting.
Also, "gang bangs" and "rape scenarios" are a porn category so if someone asks "what porn do you like" and someone answers with either of those, that makes sense and gives me some idea of what sort of porn they are watching. But is "dirty whores" a distinct porn category? I googled it and looked at the thumbnails from what comes up, and it just looks like typical het porn to me- just rougher or degrading for the woman which seems to be the norm in het porn. What differentiates dirty whore porn from het porn generally?
Yea, words from the wise. I don't know if there's a str8 equivalent here, but maybe go by studos you like. I'd say, "Oh I like that Frat X, Sketchy Sex, Ericvideos kind of porn." Not, "I like videos where guys who look like you are drugged and abused." And that's even with gay sensibilities!
"DRUGGED and abused?" How would the sub use his safe word - should he needs to while drugged and out of control mentally - in this type of play?
I am lucky in that these type of women gravitate to me, it seems. I don't come on at all. They just sort of let me know when the clothes come off. I never push, until I am wanted to. Then, it's on.
Are his kinks (rape and gang bangs) really your kinks?
13 those are perfectly valid fantasies for women.
But to reiterate: trust your gut. Women are socialized not to. It COULD be a lot of things. And you could decide to give it another slower go under different (much more sober) circumstances. Nothing stopping you from giving him a heads-up at any rate. Trust yourself, though.
The opening burden is rightly harder on someone with an Abuser Kink than someone with an Abusee Kink. Once the relationship is going, though, for a GGG partner, it could be trickier the other way.
Here's something to consider:
Does it matter whether LW was overreacting or not? I submit it doesn't.
Part of the reason for going on dates is to figure out if you (a) like someone, (b) are attracted to them, and (c) feel good around them. If any one of the above conditions fail, then call it a day and go home.
LW, if you're reading this by any chance (years later), this guy failed the "do I feel good around him" condition. Feeling unsafe around someone is not feeling good around them. Feeling creeped out or like your boundaries are being pushed on is not feeling good around them. Feeling like you might have bitten off a bit more than you can chew (and having a kink for gang-banging is pretty hard-core) and like you should bail is not feeling good around them.
I'm into some pretty rough stuff, but if someone off the street told me about theirs, I'd be deeply concerned. There is a specific context in which those can be shared, and a specific context in which they can be discussed. Face to face, real life, that does concern me unless it's been set up. The distance granted by online interactions allows for sharing at a much deeper level, but some people seem to have real trouble separating out when and where to draw the line between that and a situation which is immediate and real. Context is really important, I might love owning the guy I love in bed but if someone randomly told me off the street they believe in slavery, you better believe I'll treat that as a red flag.
In situations where your safety is a concern, you have every right to be concerned. He can feel mildly put off by it, but you didn't come in and knock the porn out of his lap. He'll be fine. You feeling safe and personally respected is worth infinitely more than his comfort.
@ 11 - I believe that's the whole point, sadly enough.
It’s easy to downplay a feeling that can be rationalized away. But trust that feeling and act.
Particularly when the stakes are high.
@17/Lionface: Except no one "off the street" told TOAD about their kinks. TOAD went on a date with someone and broached the topics of sex and porn. For many people that would be huge red flag. So its kind of funny to give TOAD a pass on sexualizing the conversation, but then find something suspect about her date for honestly answering her questions.
@4 Sublime, I read this as a vanilla date, and both the LW and her date as porn watchers, not experienced members of the kink community, versed in the terminology and rules.
I’d advise any 22-year-old submissive who wants to explore the kind of extreme play TOAD describes to first Google “safe sane and consensual”, connect with the local Fet community and find an experienced opposite-sex or opposite-orientation protector, and then go on kink-aware dates with all the safeguards in place.
Disagree with you again here, Dan.
@21 myself - major brain fart there... meant to say "same-sex, opposite-orientation protector". That is, someone who won't try to take advantage.
@Lionface: This wasn't a random stranger on the street, it wasn't a conversation over any internet platform. It was a date (I don't think the first one, either; maybe the second), and in person:
"I just started seeing this guy. I haven't known him for long—no serious sexual activity yet. The other night, a few drinks in, we ventured into talking about sex and porn."
But my disagreement with you doesn't mean I agree with SublimeAfterglow.
@SublimeAfterglow: This isn't about being hypocritical and it isn't about putting one's kinks on the table. This response in this language would me off, too, and would do so whether I was a relative newbie or an old hand at the kink scene thing.
It's the guy's apparent lack of understanding of context or what will be likely to be off-putting-- or to turn one off or displease someone, as the lw phrases it in her sign-off.
"When I asked what type of porn he watches, he said that he likes videos of "dirty whores, rape scenarios, and gang bangs.""
There are other ways to answer the question honestly that don't make one sound like a violent misogynist. ("I like group scenes; I like watching women who seem to really be into the sex." "I like scenarios where the woman is enthusiastic about being humiliated, but is clearing getting off on the attention;" "Well, I'm into BDSM /I'm a bit kinky/I like power exchange situations, so the porn I like tends to be sort of extreme.")
But not only does his answer sound like what he's putting in the search bar, which reveals a gross dearth of personal skills possibly indicating a high level of social dysfunction or maybe placement on the Autism spectrum, it sounds bro/frat-boy/#metoo-like--someone who doesn't value women as people, and only sees them as objects at all times.
You can be kinky and want to objectify your partner as a dirty whore when you're having sex; but you should be able to see her as a human person and talk to her appropriately when you're not having sex and/or you don't know her well. You should know the social rules of not using ultra-vulgar/racist/misogynist/homophobic language. You should be able to read the social cues in the responses to you should you have--through negligence or unsophistication or ignorance--uttered the response the guy did. And then you apologize, restate, and rectify. Which it doesn't sound as though this guy did.
Although the conversation was about sex, it was more than just some sexy flirtation or the dirty talk between members of a couple who know what's appropriate and what's off limits for the other person. This was a conversation where the two were trying to discover if there are mutual kinks or to see if there's potential for sexual compatibility. Maybe they were trying to determine sexual compatibility because they are interested in a long-term relationship.
For me, and it sounds like for TOAD, for there to be sexual compatibility, in addition to chemistry and attraction and an affinity for the same activities, there needs to be a baseline of comfort and conversational compatibility and chemistry. We have to not be awkward or make the other person feel awkward. If that's missing, it's as though someone has thrown a bucket of water over whatever spark might have been conducted through initial looks-based attraction. For me, "chemistry" has physical, pheromonal, personality, intelligence, social, and conversational components. If one of those components is missing or underdeveloped, it is the end of my interest.
If I had been on this date, I would have thought: this guy doesn't like women. He doesn't see women as people. And it's not because of the kinky nature of the porn he watches. He revealed that in his obliviousness when he answered her question.
Her gut was wise; I'm glad she trusted it.
@24/nocutename: I'm with @9/EmmaLiz on this question. You and Dan want TOAD's date to redefine what are standard porn genre, with rather outlandish euphemisms. When TOAD asked what porn are you into, responding that he likes to watch gangbangs it completely sensible as it accurately names the industry category. If TOAD finds porn per se misogynistic is turned off by her date watching porn, that's fine, but she indicated that she is watching the same genres of porn. Your preferred phraseology redefines a conversation about porn into one about kink, but that wasn't the topic of conversation.
Please, the idea that anyone can be diagnosed with Autism based on TOAD's letter is nonsense. Moreover, as you yourself noted, TOAD's letter suggested that this conversation didn't happen on the first date, a fact that really undermines much of the rest of your comment, for instance, whether he was capable of seeing TOAD as a human being.
Every once in a while there are letters about DD/lg, and many people find absolutely nothing wrong with female littles, but for some reason presume that Daddies are secret pedophiles. Like those comments, you're totally cool with TOAD expressing an interest in her consensual non-consent fantasies, but are deeply troubled by a man who has complementary interests.
@25: No, SublimeAfterglow: it wasn't a conversation about porn, it was a conversation about what they are into. Which is indicated by what porn he watches. If I ask a date about what kind of porn he watches and he says (as someone recently did): "All the porn I watch involves women bent over and taking it doggy style," I can infer that this is an important position to him and he would like the sex he has with another person to include that position. If someone says that they like to watch porn of women breastfeeding adult men, I infer that this turns him on, and as it doesn't turn me on, but rather kind of disgusts me, I will have some doubts as to our compatibility. If he says he likes porn featuring bondage, I will assume that he is interested in incorporating bondage into the sex he has with a partner. When you talk about porn preferences on a date, it's a way of gauging compatibility.
And you said, "you're totally cool with TOAD expressing an interest in her consensual non-consent fantasies, but are deeply troubled by a man who has complementary interests." NOPE--not what I said; not what I think.
I agree with you sangu @7, intuition got this LW worried and it remained that's why she wrote into Dan.
Intuition takes in the whole scenario, not just the words. His body language, voice tone, etc all feed into an intuitive response. And hers was to run, and she trusted it.
Good points nocute. His language was gross which would indicate to me his sexual skills would also probably be gross as well. Good this woman gave him a pass.
I shared a house in the 70s, with a breastfeeding mother. She answered some add from an artist wanting to draw a breastfeeding mother, and yep, once he got to ours, his aim was to latch on himself.
@26 That's not necessarily true re: porn watching habits translating into actions. I like gay porn but have no desire whatsoever to participate in a FMM threesome or to do any real-life watching of gay men having sex. My interests in that area are strictly limited to porn and whatever mental fantasies I have. Sometimes porn and wank material is just that: porn and wank material.
@30: okay, fair enough, nighstcrawl. But SublimeAfterglow makes it sound as though the conversation was about porn, in that what was required was a list of search terms. Whereas I think the question "what kind of porn do you like?" was a way of trying to gauge compatibility and should have been answered in a different way, even if conveying the same information. I understand that SublimeAfterglow thinks that my suggestions were stilted and outdated euphemisms, but I guess that's the way my friends and I all talk, because they didn't seem euphemistic at all to me!
Debinzzeer @ 14 She was apparently, for some reason, put off by his watching porn that included rape scenarios and gang bangs, which set off her creep detector.
She doesn't say what his actual kinks are. "The other night, a few drinks in, we ventured into talking about sex and porn". which may or may not have included their kinks.
"I've indulged other partners in bondage, BDSM, power games, and so on (which I am very much into)." My question to TOAD was does HER kinks (specifically) include (actual) rape scenarios and gang bangs. From her statement above it is not unreasonable to assume that they are. It had nothing to do with her or anyone else's fantasies.
I think Dan got this one totally right. What he said, was what I was thinking when I read the letter. "You dodged a bullet, dearie". Not all kinksters are creeps, and not all creeps are kinksters. But it's probably best to stay away someone who triggers your creepdar.
Perhaps TOAD was creeped out because she likes these things but they're something she would want to work up to, and he cited them right off the bat. I agree that using the phrase "dirty whores" suggests a disrespect for women. It could also be the way they've said it. When I've talked to lovers about their porn preferences, if they are into stuff generally considered "degrading" they tend to be a bit apologetic about it. If this guy just blithely announced, "My favourite scenes involve women being degraded," no wonder that came off as creepy.
I do feel a bit sorry for the guy; on the chance he isn't a rapist, he answered a question honestly and that cost him this potential partner. But, as Slinky @16 says, that's the point of dating -- not just to rule someone in, but to rule them out, based on learning more about them.
I think to a degree he was set up to fail here. Asking and discussing porn on a first date in explicit terms is fraught. While she asked, he should have demurred with a general response that was non-specific, implying that he may or may not watch and enjoy porn. If I were asked by a woman about what I like in terms of porn, I might turn it around and ask her to tell me her preferences first, since she started on the theme it appears. If not, I would not go negative as he did. Perhaps she moved on because she discerned that he lacked the emotional intelligence to know when to withhold.
Also it is important to recognize that liking a porn genre does not mean that a person wants to engage accordingly. In my viewing history, I am quite eclectic and have enjoyed watching some things that I definitely would not want to be part of.
I don't get it. "Dirty Whores" is demeaning but BDSM and all it entails is not?
IMHO, TOAD is a hypocrite. She asked the question but is then creeped out by her date's, direct, honest answer. She claims to be into BDSM but didn't have the "balls" to ask decent follow up questions to flesh out what it is he liked about those genres and why. TOAD is not only a hypocrite but she's also a fake, wanna be kinkster who is easily offended by what she considered to be demeaning, dirty talk. Maybe she should just stick to good, old fashion, plain vanilla sex.
Ms Cute - A Croft Award, perhaps? You'll recall Admiral C's comment, "One man's ways may be as good as another's, but we all like our own best;" a bonus for recollecting which habit of the Elliots led to that.
LW sensed they weren't a match and bolted at the right time; the machinery worked as it was designed to do. While your overall read is very likely accurate, I'd advise people who want partners to play a creepy role to have a somewhat higher standard before making Creep an "official verdict".
Iseult @11: The same way an actor in a film is portrayed as flying, when humans can't actually fly. IT'S A VIDEO, the person is -acting- drugged.
Fubar @21: Yes, I read it like that as well.
Turible @22: So, you think Dan should advise women who are feeling a sense of unease around a man to force themselves to get over whatever red flags are waving in their heads and continue seeing that man? Really? (That's called gaslighting, by the way.)
Park Place @35: It wasn't their first date.
JuanMas @36: TOAD was just 22 when she wrote this letter. Even if she enjoys submission, she's right to be cautious about partners/Doms. There are so many bad ones out there and if this guy set off warning bells, she's better off looking for a different one. And yes, using the phrase "dirty whores," in light of NoCute's research that indicates there is no such key term in porn, indicates a disrespect for women who enjoy sex, whereas BDSM is consensual and requires high levels of trust and respect on both/all sides.
Certainly TOAD was being sensible in not escalating with her date...ON THAT OCCASION. Drunken, sloppy, overdisclosure with creepy undertones isn't a signal for dragging someone back to your cave.
Continuing the conversation, under better circumstances, wouldn't be unreasonable. Over coffee, in broad daylight, he might confirm his rapey, misogynistic potential; OR, turn out to be on the same wavelength as she.
Someone else mentioned it here, but I agree, SHE asked about porn on the first date! HE answered honestly. Both are red flags. If I was on a first date with someone and they asked about what porn I watched not only would I dumb it down, I might not have been interested in a second date. I'm kind of old school when it comes to dating. Put your best foot forward. Eventually I'll be happy to hold your hair back while you puke but you gotta work up to that.
@40: It wasn't a first date.
@38: BiDanFan, thanks for the credit, but I wasn't the one to research porn search terms.
@38 BiDanFan it was @9 EmmaLiz that Googled "dirty whore" and said it looks like typical het porn... "just rougher or degrading for the woman". But I agree... there are so many abusive so-called Doms out there. Alarm bells mean leave the building.
@36 JuanMas: calling women "Dirty Whores" in a mutually agreed fantasy role-play would not be demeaning. BDSM and all it entails, when done right, is definitely not demeaning.
Well, this woman is now 30 and this unpleasant assignation is now just a faded memory.
When I asked what type of porn he watches, he said that he likes videos of "dirty whores, rape scenarios, and gang bangs."
He then asked me, "so...what about you? What type of porn do you like to watch?"
I replied, "I love videos of Burmese pythons slithering around guys who like videos of dirty whores, rape scenarios, and gang bangs...and slowly squeezing them to death. That always gets me off!"
@43: Not too different from the nasty talk on the Access Hollywood tape. Sorry, they're both demeaning.
Talking about your kinks on a first date, as others have said, is not a red flag for me. Lots of fun men have done that and we've gone on to have a great and safe time.
But we all pick up on non-verbal clues - tones of voice, changes in volume, body positions, body movements, facial expressions, facial responses and more that are not big enough to notice consciously but which some part of our brain is attending to and processing.
When the back of our brain notices things we don't and puts up a red flag, we feel uncomfortable - and you were right to pay attention to that and act on it. You don't have to understand it to treat it as valid.
I've had some strange and unpleasant experiences whenever I've ignored that kind of feeling. I've (luckily) never been in actual danger - but I was drugged once (the dose was too small to knock me out, he was incompetently evil) and have had some other bad times.
@41 first date, second date, whatever, if it is wrong for him to answer honestly it is also wrong for her to ask such a potentially loaded question, especially since, as she says, his kinks are her kinks.
Why reprint a letter from of April of 2010 unless DS has received an update. After 8 years, nothing posted here is of benefit to TOAD (assuming she even reads) talk about water under the bridge. I wonder how many of comments are posted by the same people who commented in 2010 and to what degree are same comments. (mild curiosity, but not strong enough to take the time to answer my own questions) Do people actually get wiser as they get older?
@47: Is it dishonest to answer using less violently misogynistic terms? Is the only way to honestly answer the question "what kind of porn do you like?" by using terms like "dirty whores, rape scenarios, gang bangs."?
I keep coming back to the fact that it's not the porn he likes or the fact that he was honest, so much as it was they way he expressed himself that made the lw decide not to see him again. I also find it interesting that most of the women who've written in understand just what was off-putting to the lw, while many of the men seem to not see what she saw or what some of the female commenters are trying to explain.
The way he phrased his answer made her feel unsafe.
"I've indulged other partners in bondage, BDSM, power games, and so on (which I am very much into)." Is this letter a fake? TOAD is 22, has had multiple partners, and has engaged in some serious kink with them (if she is to believed). This would seem to undermine the suggestion that she was inexperienced. Porn is most likely how she decided that she had an interest in more than vanilla sex. Then again, her previous partners may have been experienced and much (a relative term) than older her.
Clearly, the guy is a rapey creep misogynist.
Asking a question, and getting that type of response would be a red flag. The fact that she felt like getting the hell away from him is her intuition. She was smart to listen to it.
BTW, isn't saying "she asked, but now she can't handle the reply, it's her fault" (when she is insulted by his woman hater answer), sort of like saying, "she wore that short skirt, she had it coming, and shouldn't complain??
She asked a question.
The guy had two choices. Speak somewhat respectfully of women, or give his alarm ringing dangerous probably a rapist answer. He made that choice, not her.
True coolie@47, she did ask first and ParkPlace @35 gave a good take on that point.
It's not about him answering her question truthfully it was his use of language. One could image him raising his left butt cheek straight after saying it and letting off a fart.
@48 S&C.. some people get wiser as they get older, learn to trust their intuition without needing someone else to verify its legitimacy.
Apologies, and credit to EmmaLiz for researching the porn categories cited by the LW.
Raindrop @45: It's not demeaning to call someone a dirty whore -at that person's request-, which is the context in BDSM scenarios. The sub has CONSENTED to be called a dirty whore because that gets them off. Anything consensual is not demeaning.
There is an element of if she didn't want to know, she shouldn't have asked, but then again, if she hadn't asked and found herself alone with a guy who was both dominant and boundary challenged, I bet she'd find herself wishing she'd looked harder for warning signs.
Maybe this is because I"m somewhat prudish but I've been with my now fiance for years and I still am not a big fan of sharing my interests in porn(which, to be clear, are WAY more tame than anything discussed here) with her.
On a first date I'd most likely say something ridiculously vague(you know, MFF threesomes, nothing too extreme, really) and then change the subject to literally anything else.
I just want to lodge my disagreement that he's clearly a creepy rapist. The whole point is that we - and the LW - don't know if the guy is a creep or not. The LW is unsure herself. His word choice was poor. There are a million possibilities about why he chose his words poorly, and the more likely and more common ones are that he just phrased something in an awkward way, that he was excited / nervous and just blurted out the porn categories he likes, that's he's young and inexperienced and hasn't reflected on how his words come across, etc. The other possibility is that he's a creep. The LW doesn't know, neither do we, so there's no point in trying to decide if he is a creep or not. The LW did the right thing because the stakes are high and she was correct to go with her gut. Should she follow up with the dude to clarify? There are safe and appropriate ways to do that if she wants to. Since they seem compatible and since the LW is curious, I think she should. Since it turns out this letter is a repeat, this is moot point, but if people are in a similar situation in the future, I think a follow up meeting in a public place to discuss these things could clarify, maybe even help the man (assuming he's not a creep) by giving him some feedback and maybe even help the LW who is clearly interested in these kinks by helping her learn how to find out what she wants to know.
The interesting part of the discussion above is the implication that the LW asked for something and then coudln't take it. That seems to me (and maybe to most women?) as a complete misunderstanding of the purpose of a "feel you out" conversation. You bring topics up to see how people respond to see if you are compatible- that includes safety, respect, etc. It's as much about how the other person responds (word choice, body language, tone) as it is what they say. This is totally normal human behavior.
For example, what coolie said. Asking about porn on the first date would be a red flag for them. It clearly isn't for the LW and helps her determine compatibility. So coolie might jet at that point when other people might think to themselves "awesome". For myself personally, talking about porn, even in an early encounter or first date, would not be a red flag about me. It's how that conversation goes. If the mention of porn makes a guy look like he's suddenly super horny and desperate to fuck- if he can't be casual about it or if he can't acknowledge that it's entirely fictional, people playing a role- that would be a turn off for me. I'm trying to think about why, and it's because in my experience there's a switch that goes off in some dudes' heads when they realize that you are a woman who is into sex. Some guys handle that fine- they remain open to conversation, able to think clearly, able to listen and treat you like a human. Other guys immediately flip to a sort of kid in a candy store mode where it's like they found a play thing and it's really gross. But this is speculation. I've never actually talked about porn with someone I was dating outside the context of a larger discussion about sex for whatever reason- just hasn't come up. Not into kink or BDSM either, so I wonder if actually the LW's problem is that she needs to figure out a better way to bring up her kinks in the first place. Porn is probably not the best place to start.
I don't consider misogyny a "kink", this guy on the date stated some pretty degrading things he likes.. I don't see this as a fantasy as much as a paradigm.
I don't consider misogyny a "Kink". The guy on the date, sounds he stating his paradigm than a "Kink". I think the LW was right in kicking this guy to the curb. No matter if the guy was bad in stating what he liked, or he was really not a bad guy. It is pretty disturbing to see his fantasies are about degradation. I consider all "gang bangs" no matter if there is a model consent form with the actor's signature on it or not, a form of rape..
opps. sorry for the double post, my bad..
Ferret, can you explain that? I've never participated in a gangbang but I've seen plenty of discussion planning around them as a (silent) reader on FetLife, and it's definitely the fantasy of plenty of women (and men). There's no way a well-organized gang bang that originated from the desire of the gang banged person to to be gang banged could be considered a form of rape, like how? So I'm guessing you just mean gang bang porn (since you mentioned consent forms and actors). I don't know anything about how those are filmed, etc, so that's why I'm asking you to explain. Seems a really hard stance to take- that it's all a form of rape. Could you explain that?
@EmmaLiz: I don't know if the guy is a creep or not. My point was that if someone said that to me early on, I would be too put off to want to see them again. The lw felt that way, too. Maybe it was based on non-verbal communication, as well as what was said. But she had a reaction and she trusted her gut and I think one should always do that and shouldn't try to second guess that gut reaction. After all, she was a 22-y/o woman--this wasn't her last chance to date someone.
@nocute, yeah me too. I was mostly referencing "Clearly, the guy is a rapey creep misogynist" above (not you) since I don't think that's at all clear. I agree about her trusting her gut regardless and I disagree entirely with Coolie's stance that seems to be that if you ask a question you are obligated to accept any answer to it which is not how conversation works, especially when you are getting to know someone.
@49 For the record I agree that dirty whores is pretty degrading and off putting for me. But there are certainly women who get off on that and more extreme things, more power to them! To quote, "Now mind you, I like being treated like a dirty whore." So I'm just surmising that to HER it wasn't off putting. And certainly there are lots of women who get off on "rape scenarios" which are consensual and NOT rape. I never got off on that, but that is just me. AND for fucks sake gang bangs? puh-leeez! My very own girlfriend is into gang bangs, and she LOVES the no condom/creampie variety MOST! Lucky for her I didn't run for the hills when she told me about it...I went and got some gang bang porn for us to watch together, and discovered, much to my surprise, I was into it too! Ain't love grand when your kinks line up (Like LW and "Creepy Misogyny Guy")?
@61 "There's no way a well-organized gang bang that originated from the desire of the gang banged person to to be gang banged could be considered a form of rape, like how? "
I just see a gangbang as uncontrollable for the recipient, there is also a person at the receiving end, dealing with a bunch of horny men, who either have their own fantasies about this, or their own strong desires, unclothed, ready for penetration.
I just don't see it as consensual, mainly, if the recipient wants to stop, it is difficult for them to stop, given others either haven't been pleasure, or the other participants have had their turn.. I also see if anyone has fantasies about a gangbang, the reality is different. Mainly the lack of control in the situation. I don't see a safe word working very well..
coolie, up until now, you've seemed like a reasonably intelligent person, so I'm mystified at how you keep missing it. How can you "surmise that to HER it wasn't off-putting," (referring to TOAD) when she herself said she did indeed find this guy's response off-putting:
("Now mind you, I like being treated like a dirty whore. And I love porn. But for some reason, this put me off. I ended up heading home early, and I am apprehensive about seeing him again.
. . . So why am I judging this nice, good-looking guy as a creep?
Turned Off And Displeased")
She's turned off and displeased not because he likes rough sex that degrades women, but because of the way he expressed that to her--a way that made her decide he is a "creep."
Why is this so hard to understand?
Are you trying to misunderstand? It's not that he said what he's into that is the problem. She's into that too. It's the way he said it.
There is a difference between liking consensual rape play, liking to role play at being treated like a dirty whore, etc, and actually being a man that likes to push boundaries and really likes dirty whores. If you are a man that really likes dirty whores, that means you believe that dirty whores are a thing (not something we play at) and that you are just out looking for them. A man with this worldview is a creep and not someone you'd want to trust with respecting consent. There's a difference from being someone who enjoys consensual degradation in a sexual context that both people enjoy and being a man that really has disrespectful and degrading attitudes about sex and women. This is a real thing- there really are men like that out there- they don't always know it about themselves. Women who are on guard against these things sometimes get a gut feeling that the dude you are with could be one of those guys.
You keep saying that since she asked about porn and he answered about porn that the conversation is OK. She asked about it. He answered. I can't tell if you are just arguing for the sake of it or if you really can't understand why this is a bizarre stance. Yes, you ask people questions about their interests (sexual or otherwise) so that you can get a feel for what they are like based on their responses and then you decide about compatibility. The responses that this guy gave made the LW think that there's a possibility that he's a creep who can't tell the difference between playing around degradation and misogyny and nonconsent vs being someone who is actually into those things in real life.
Whether or not this guy really is a creep is secondary. The LW could clarify if she wants to, especially considering that she's into this stuff too. But something in his word choice made her think he should be a creep. And she's 100% correct to go with her gut and decide she shouldn't risk it. Creeps abound, and they pretty frequently push push push to get dominance - if you let one thing slide, they will ramp up the next thing. So it's a defense mechanism to shut that shit down right away. It's a smart thing to do. Hopefully the LW will learn to do that in a way that clarifies the situation so that she doesn't eliminate potential partners who are just awkward. Hopefully the man (if he's not a creep) will learn to express his desires in a way that doesn't raise people's red flags. This is all normal, unfortunate but normal.
And it sounds like in practice, you know the difference, hence your own discussion of getting into gang bang porn with your gf. However this was expressed to you, it felt like it was safe/fun (at least potentially) for you to continue to explore this with her. However it was expressed to the LW, it did not. It's not about the actual thing you are into but rather whether or not you and the other person are on the same page. There are loads of scenarios in which a man can treat you like a dirty whore and the majority of them are not fun and I guarantee it's not what the LW means when she says she likes to be treated like a dirty whore or else she would not be having this conversation in the first place. If she just means she likes men who have no respect for her and treat her like shit and degrade her and have a sex negative attitude, then she would not be writing this letter. She means she likes to play at it in a consensually way- all the behaviors might be the same in the sexual moment, but that doesn't mean the man REALLY degrades, disrespects women who like sex. It means they can play at it. For whatever, this woman got a vibe that this man is really that way, not play but really. She may be wrong, but she felt that way and there is nothing prudish about her deciding to leave at that point. This was the wise decision. And since she's experienced with BDSM and since she's a woman dating men, then I'd say she's likely to know more of what she's talking about.
@68: Thank you, EmmaLiz. That was perfect.
I'm sorry but could you clarify if you mean in porn or in real life? I don't know anything about how porn gang bangs are arranged and I could see that it might be a situation in which the female actress has no control after initially consenting depending on the situations on set.
Also I can see how in real life it might end up that way too, but the gang bangs I've read being planned online (again just as a reader not a participant as it was hot for me to follow the planning but I don't actually want to be involved), none of the concerns you raised have to be that way. There are loads of discussions, mostly female led, about how to have a good gang bang, from the points of view of the women who organized them themselves and had good experiences and plan them again and again. Usually it involves a lot of vetting of men ahead of time and the most difficult part seems to be establishing a group of people who are who they say they are and will show up reliably, etc. The whole thing seems hot for me to read and fantasize about, but my gut says the actual logistics of it would entirely turn me off if I were to attempt it in real life.
I don't know about on set and I also don't know about sex clubs that have those gang bang nights. That seems pretty dangerous to me. I've heard Dan give advice about how you make sure you have advocates there for the woman- one who is not involved in the sex itself- who can shut things down and make sure that things stay cool and consensual so I don't think people are just relying on a safe word (or at least they shouldn't be) as I agree that would be nearly impossible to enforce if it's just a woman alone with a loads of horny strange men- what a fucking horror story that would be.
Alright fine, I give up. I was seeing this through my lens which may not be his, as if it was me on the receiving end of a question like that. I can assure you that if I was on the receiving end of that question, I would have tempered my response and thought pretty hard about a second date. In the case of my girlfriend, we had that talk after about 6 months of dating, so we were pretty cool with each other already. AND I'm older (54) so pretty old school about dating, and porn tastes for that matter. Finally, I still think they were both wrong...too early for that conversation especially given the tastes of the people involved. If you have an interest in something that requires a lot of trust, then that conversation should wait until the trust is there. We don't know what she would have said if he was interested in blowjob porn and then turned the question back at her. Would she reveal all? What if the roles were reversed and he asked her, and she spilled the beans?
@69 "I'm sorry but could you clarify if you mean in porn or in real life?"
I consider it raped both for commercial use (ie Porn) and that people are trying to put together in real life.. I just feel that is difficult to control for one person when having sex, let alone let's say over three others..
I don't read Fet Life, but I also feel to take a grain of salt about what is posted. If there are only "good" experience by women doing gangbangs, I am wondering where are the bad experiences being posted. Much like there are many three ways, that end up with someone emotionally hurt, or feeling it was a bad idea..
Sex can be wonderful, and we are programmed to have a sex drive, or wanting to be intimate. However, as we all know sex can turned into horror, when things get out of control, or without consent. I don't see "gang bangs", as consensual. No matter it it is at a swingers' party or at a porn shoot. A director may have much more say in a Porn Shoot to control the situation, but it still can be overwhelming for a recipient, male or female..
I'm not saying there are only good experiences. Part of the discussion of organizing a successful gang bang includes what not to do because some horror show shit can result, similar to your concerns. I'm pushing back against the "it's always rape" stance which seems demonstrably not true as plenty of people enjoy gang bangs and organize them for themselves and do not feel that they have been raped or violated in any way. I don't know if this is true on porn sets, which is why I was asking for clarification on your stance. I don't see how you could argue it's not consensual for a woman to approve and arrange a group of men to fuck her.
I like being treated like a pretend dirty whore when I'm having sex; it's a role I play. I like pretending that the man fucking me doesn't have to care about me or treat me well. Most of the men I've been seriously involved with enjoyed playing that during sex, too. If I thought that any of them really didn't respect me, I wouldn't want to play that game with them. I have had several boyfriends who made it absolutely clear that they respect and admire me, and there was genuine affection and regard for my feelings--they could call me a dirty whore while we were having sex, and that was fine.
I happen to prefer the word "cunt' to refer to female genitalia when I'm having sex or dirty talking about it. As a word for vagina, I find it sexy. But I am well aware of how--at least in the U.S.--when it is used to describe a woman (like Sam Bee calling Ivanka T a "feckless cunt") it is an insult of the deepest order.
I was having sex for the first time with a man I didn't know all that well (it was a third date) once who, during sex, called me a "fucking cunt." Not my vagina; ME. That was the last time I saw him. I later told several men, as part of a discussion about what we liked and how we felt about dirty talk and various limits or deal-breakers: "I have a cunt, but I'm not a cunt. If you are referring to that part of my body, that's fine, even great, but if you use that word to refer to me as a person, that is absolutely NOT okay."
I am Jewish and once, having sex for the first time with a gentile man who had been married to a Jewish woman before we met, he called me, in the heat of (?)passion(?) "fucking Jew." I was out of the room before he pulled his pants up.
DAN WHY CAN'T WE MAKE ITALICS OR BOLD FACE ANYMORE?
Can I just say a bit louder for all the people who are repeatedly missing this...
THIS WAS NOT THE FIRST DATE.
Also, as a data point, I have had a sexcapade with four men, which I suppose would qualify as a gang bang. Let me assure you that I not only consented but enjoyed myself immensely. This was in the days before the internet; I had slept with one of the men before, and two others were really hot, so when a small afterparty turned naughty I was well up for it and didn't feel at all violated. YMMV.
Also, congrats to EmmaLiz on the lucky number.
@BiDanFan: For all we know, this could have been a fourth date.
@20, 24, anyone responding to my earlier post, I'm aware it was not some unprompted bit of TMI from a creep off the street, but a response to a question sincerely posed. However, 'too much too soon' is a form of TMI and to my mind, still a red flag. My point is that they had only just recently met and she still knew little about this person. If she was getting bad vibes, she made the right call.
I say they had only just met because it seems far fetched that she would randomly ghost someone she felt she knew well, first date or otherwise. Certainly it happens, but not as often as ghosting someone you've only known a short time.
Perfect answer, Dan. Women have to be cautious, unfortunately. Always run with your instincts on these things. As others have pointed out above, if nothing else, it demonstrates a concerning lack of social skills.
W/R/T "Acceptable" porn genres vs. unacceptable.
Can we instead say it's acceptable porn performers? I don't want to see the 20-year old mother fucking a middle age porn director in a random hotel room. I DO want to see Princess Donna tied up and being gangbanged, slapped, whipped and called dirty names and made to lick boots or tongue butts and whatever else.
Why? Because Donna loves that shit. I have come to be the belief that most successful, long-term porn stars enjoy some aspect of their work - they love the sex, or they love that they're the center of attention, or that other people are watching/masturbating to them, or even just the money. They're adults who are making from their perspective, a positive-value trade. That's cool, I wish this were a bigger part of the discussion!
Meanwhile, someone who wouldn't otherwise be in porn doing say to pay the bills/support a habit/forced to by their pimp, I don't care if it's piano music and rose pedals and 'female friendly' scenes, if the person ends up there due to lack of their own agency/power/situation, that's degrading, regardless of the content. There's a reason why "upskirt" videos and the leaked Erin Andrews videos have a sense of degradation to them and are illegal, even tho much more hardcore porn activities which are considered mainstream.
The best slant you could put on this would be 'bad judgement'. The worst is 'checking out how far I will go in being degraded and possibly assaulted'. Lets look at his words- 'Dirty whores'- sex workers are unclean and contemptible. "Rape'- women assaulted sexually. 'Gang bangs'- women fucked by multiple men, with or without consent. If he had only mentioned the gang bang scenario, I might have given him a pass, but three forms of porn, all with a degradation/humiliation element, all with elements of non-consent, and I don't even know this guy?? I'm out of there, so fast there would be a woman-shaped hole in the wall if the wall was closer than the door. He sounds dangerous, and as I am a woman, and therefore have to face the risk of sexual assault, and some guy I don't know but might potentially accompany out of the door and into a dark and empty car park mentions that he is turned on by porn featuring sexual assault- oh man, there are no words. Any man who is stupid enough to sound me out in this way before I have spent six months getting to know and trust him, deserves a swift DTMFA. She was right to be concerned. It might have saved her life.
Lionface @78: Where are you getting the idea that she intended to "randomly ghost" him? It's possible to decide to not see someone again, and give them a polite goodbye text. I hope that's what she did.
Lindy @81: Bingo.
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