Good column until the last "contribution". Why don't Trump supporters get it? Do they really, truly believe it's just a difference of opinion? Or was the LW gaslighting?
Oh, and the "Busty Baggage" comment thread is closed, so legal liabilities or something stymie young love yet again.
I don't see any reason to question this guy's straightness. People have sex with people they aren't attracted to all the time. Melania has had sex with Trump.
LMB seven times over. At least. The only consolation is that the straight chasers involved are out of the gay dating pool, but I'll repeat that straight chasers really need to be considered a separate orientation. As to whether even straight chasers ought to have better taste, I'm not really inclined to care much.
I can only repeat my hope that Sam is at a time when he really doesn't want a relationship. It was a little disappointing that nobody else among the assembled company (or, apparently, even Mr Savage, although I can see that, if Sam confessed Eternal Love for LW and swore him to secrecy, Mr S clearly couldn't give him away) considered what happens when Sam finds Someone to Date; the invited inferences are a bit too Queer Eye-esque.
Apparently now one can no longer divide a comment with a row of asterisks, even though it shows up in the preview.
So THROAT engages in an elaborate ritual to protect himself from thoughts of Sam, which would turn him off, at Sam's behest. What a slimy setup. I repent of anything nice I said about either.
As for the other guy, there's a reason all the good orientation play blogs are run by either gay subs into the humiliation of sleeping with a creature like that letter's writer, or gay dominants only too happy to drag boys--what boys can be salvaged--kicking and screaming from the closet until they're singing gay men's praises. Praise the Lord for gay men and their supremacy, without which the rest of you lot would have been lost long ago.
So long as we keep beating this spineless, closeted horse, I'll keep correcting these writers.
@4 Certainly straight chasers are at the very bottom of the barrel. Nevertheless I respect their sheer devotion to performing the most disgusting acts on earth. It must take a great deal of conmittment to give something so valuable to someone so inferior.
*commitment. There is a special place in Hell for people who make phone keyboard buttons so goddamn small.
I don't think either of these young men give a toss what you old fellas, Lionface and Mr Venn, feel about their interactions. Both are consenting adults and both are enjoying themselves.
@9 THROAT sure seems involved enough to go running to Dan declaring his straightness after the last batch of comments. My comments are to generally shame all setups like them, though. It isn't personal.
You know, the more I think of it, vennominon, the more I think you're right, straight chasers should be a separate orientation. That's an elegant solution!
Actually, do you mind if I repost that on my orientation play blog? I'll give you due credit or take your name off and keep you anonymous, whichever you please.
Yeah @10, so? He's not attracted to men, he's clear on that and he's not fussed about labels either. Sam is not a straight chaser, just looking after a friend and liking it.
Whether or not it's personal your position is rude and who are you to shame others' for their decisions.
@12 He consented to my rude and correct opinion the moment he sent it to Dan to be publicly posted. If he's so unconcerned, then it's no problem, is it?
Who says your opinion is correct? Except you.
Leave 'em be to enjoy their relationship their way without some old gays imposing their stuck beliefs onto them.
Geez man, get with the programme.
@12 Oops, hit enter too early; I'm doing my best to make up for my phone. Labels are not just cheap terms you buy down at the grocery store. Gay intimacy is the most valuable thing on this earth. Sam grants that gift to his straight (undeserving) friend, that's his choice and his right, I won't stop him. It's still disgusting.
I do my part to make something useful out of it, though. The only solution that I've ever seen work to curb both the 'straight chaser' trend and that disgust has been to start supplying the demands for strong dominance, humiliation, hierarchy, etc within a fantasy narrative that provides better incentives to submissives than 'straight chasing,' specifically, gay dominants capable of committing fully to their role and taking full responsibility for their actions. It's an untapped market, the response has been overwhelmingly positive. Your comments tonight are actually the only complaints I've ever received.
What bull you talk! I'm sure gay intimacy is just as capable of being a shitshow just like hetro or parental or sibling etc. intimacy.
What's disgusting is your judgement of others' consensual behaviour on Dan's site.
@14 On a given day, I receive somewhere between 4 to 6 pieces of fan mail thanking me for my blog on just this subject, and I help guys like THROAT come out to themselves and their partners like Sam regularly. Here, I'll quote some recent fan mail for you.
"I just wanted to tell you that I love your blog. I have been checking it from time to time and finally decided to follow. Humiliation and submission is one of my kinks, but before knowing your blog, I had to look for that kind of content on straight supremacy blogs and such, which don't exactly fit my preferences. Just the name of your blog is exactly what I was looking for! hahaha, thanks for the love and care you put into your blog, really."
"I really like the little bit of world building stuff you've done and would love to see more of it. As a proud submissive it truly sounds like utopia."
"this blog is going to be the death of me, wow. i've always considered myself bi but i'm gradually becoming more and more gay by reading the stuff you write while i'm jerking off 😖"
"Your confidence and masculinity are intoxicating. I'm bi, and I always feel like I'm posturing when I try to be dominant or assertive, regardless of whether it's with men or women. The lack of satisfaction I get from being dominant even when my partner plays along makes the urge to submit or to 'lose' and be cuckolded even worse. How does dominance come to you so naturally? What does it feel like to know your place at the top rather than just aspire to it?"
"i’m recently dating an openly gay man for the first time, and not only is it new for me to have him introduce me to his friends as his boy, but he’s been keeping me chaste since it started. i can’t focus on anything but getting him off. 🙊💕"
wtf? Glad you've got your own blog elsewhere.. this is not it.
@16 Sincerely? Of course I know that, I'm not actually arguing that gays are superior, but I am arguing that it's really fucking valuable, that ability to be intimate with another man! Hundreds of thousands of gay and bi men died within the last 40 years over this, you think this just comes free and suddenly it's all equal and hunky-dory forever? Turn the clock back four years and countless couples still couldn't be married, you think now the scales are perfectly set? That shit leaves some damage that will take real time and effort to heal!
I'm doing what I can to give dominant men the spine to come out and the emotional space to know that being dominant and being intimate and open are totally compatible. I'm giving submissive guys encouragement to find guys who are going to give a shit about them when the dust and cum has settled. Mostly, I'm just out encouraging gay men to be honest and open and to own what it is they do. It's perfectly true that what I perceive to be the inverse of this is not something I enjoy, but I will not stop anyone from doing anything consensual. What I promote are relationships that are kinky, interesting, and, ultimately, emotionally fulfilling.
I've talked about myself and this material enough to fill a book in these comments alone and so far you are the only one who's voiced a real problem with it. Consider this one 'won' by attrition, I would simply feel embarrassed posting any more about THROAT/Sam in this or any other thread, and I can't see any good reason to post even more shit about myself or my projects for a while. Enjoy.
@4, @6 (et ad nauseum) - there are few things funnier than sex-negative comments to a Savage Love post. Thanks for the trip back to the good ol' gay '90s here at Savage Love. There's little to nothing in your comments about THROAT and Sam that go beyond straight (pun intended) slut-shaming. And, like all intolerant moralizers, you just can't get enough of your own self-proclaimed superiority.
Oh - and on that last point, if you have to declare yourself the winner, you probably aren't...
Mr "Umpf" (it's spelled oomph) is not straight. He has four bottoms whom he sees once a month each. He's fucking male mouths weekly. And he never mentions women. THROAT may be able to claim to be straight -- he's evolved enough not to mind being called straightish -- but Umpf? Gimme a break. Umpf, you're a queer top. Own it.
To Mr "Busty Baggage" Admirer: Who isn't? Snore. You're the guy BIG is avoiding. Join the fricking queue.
To IMSAD, just because gaslighting is obvious to third parties doesn't mean it's obvious to the person being gaslighted, who has their love-blinkers on. Sometimes it takes third parties to point out the obvious. IMSAD certainly reacted with surprise to this revelation.
@20 I was and am declaring Lavagirl the winner here, for what it's worth, hence my reference to my own attrition. There's simply nothing left to say.
@20 I was and am declaring Lavagirl the winner here, for what it's worth, hence my reference to my own attrition on the subject. I've said everything I needed to.
Lava @9: Not inserting myself into this catfight, but for the record, Lionface has said he is 30 years old.
So many disappearing comments today! I find it effective to go back to the main letter, hit refresh, then return to the comments when mine seems to have vanished.
@21 It's probable Umpf knows he's queer/gay, given that he doesn't mention being straight even once in his letter. He uses 'gay' the same way some gay guys will still use 'fag' in dirty talk even though they're explicitly into 'fags.'
@24 25 actually, but that was very close!
Sorry, Lionface! My memory is fading with age.
You're right that Umpf never claimed to be straight, so I'm not sure why Dan used him as an example of THROAT not being "the only straight guy out there getting blowjobs from gay boys."
I do have to agree with Lava and join her in rebuking you and Venn for your "LMB" attitude. I am personally disgusted by hairy men, but I don't spend my life on an anti-bear crusade. I'm sure some of my preferences would provoke the desire in certain other folks to hurl their breakfasts, but I appreciate their showing the respect of keeping that to themselves, too. Lionface, you've articulated your prejudice and shown your workings. Anyone who agrees enough to read your blog can find it. Well done in making Tensor seem reasonable! :-O
@28 Thank you! It is of course embarrassing to be drawn into it again, but there's a saying about old habits. I'm working on being better, apologies for the outbursts. Though, now you can see why I wanted to channel this more productively than just being an asshole.
Mr Savage didn't like the Straight Chaser Feeder either. I would have given him FTWL instead of LMB if he had said he was put on earth to feed straight-chasers. Instead, he universalized straight-chasers into All Gays. I have seen a lot of that attitude. It causes harm. How long do you think SS right were delayed because straight men thought gays were out to turn them? Thank the straight chasers for that. They have a strongly anti-gay agenda, and the less that OS people confuse straight-chasers for gays the better.
I'm not sure whether Ms Lava and Ms Fan were among the assembled company yet, but some may remember Mr Savage's mentioning a man in New York City who'd advertised for a gay roommate who would have been basically a slave, doing the cooking, cleaning, interiour decoration/maintenance, etc., servicing him in private but not acknowledged publicly as a friend. This was the sort of person who assumed that what one might call the Straightdom Fantasy was the natural way of the world and what most gays would go for, because he fully bought into the ideas that we were inferiour to straights and had eroticized our inferiourity. Mr Savage's comment was that that person with his disgusting attitudes would be flooded with eager respondents.
Ms F, if straight chasers were clearly understood to be nothing at all like gays except for generally liking the same body parts, I could easily default into being thankful that they had straights who were happy to belittle them, so that they wouldn't be poisoning the gay well. Until that day, what will trigger LMB is that they are taken as representative of gays and used to further anti-gay politics, which suits their own desires quite nicely. And, on your own standards, Ms L, you ought not to cry for the straight chasers - my under/over on how many of them in the US voted for Mr Trump would be 90%. He's just their type.
As for Sam and the straight LW, they are in a place that works for them now. Unless Mr Savage has private information he can't in fairness divulge, he and the commentariat have provided a bunch of invited inferences that I find to be anti-gay in the way that all the concern expressed has been for what happens when LW finds a woman:
that Sam will still want to service LW when LW is dating
that Sam might be open to MMFs
that Sam should be more invested in servicing his friend than in himself dating
that if Sam finds a man, that man will be totally fine with the arrangement
that Sam wouldn't want to stop with LW if Sam starts a real relationship
and other things besides. I have nothing against LW, or their arrangement for now - if it's working for Sam and isn't keeping him from a more fulfilling relationship. Gay men can drift into pseudo-relationships with straight friends that can sometimes help us block ourselves from real relationships. That is a concern of mine for Sam. Hence my expressed hope that he's really focused on his career right now and doesn't want a full relationship, so that this arrangement helps by giving him a sexual outlet that doesn't interfere with his main goals.
@30 Setting aside my own history in this thread, I would caution strongly against taking their impulse toward serving closeted republicans (in fantasy, we hope) and enjoying a loss of rights as a genuine threat to gay rights. It may certainly be in bad taste, we can personally agree there, but this niche audience is not likely to actually negatively impact our rights.
Many if not most seem perfectly happy to stick with role-playing and plenty are in fact out and proud in a public context. Roleplayers are actually probably more likely to be the most out and proud types, since few things excite like violating a personal taboo. To the extent that this frames homophobia a socially unacceptable taboo fit solely for the bedroom, it's actually a net good. It would really only be concerning if it we're socially widely known. The notion of gay men attempting to convert straights is itself a powerful narrative that frames gay men as capable of such a thing, which only arises in a society where most closeted men know they are closeted and are not yet out. There's a reason that narrative has been almost totally abandoned.
A few actualize this, yes. Fewer than in the past, though, and increasingly in a fetish context that is hard to justify as more than a kink. Obviously it's still possible to do, but in the absence of structural support, homophobic behavior comes at much greater potential cost.
Whatever fights we would have here have pretty much already been decided. Vigilance is nice, but hard to sustain in the absence of a meaningful challenge. The best course of action right now is to work to make the experience of being out as exciting and consistently satisfying as possible. The more pleasure we produce, the more fulfilled we are, the stronger our narrative. Positive feedback loops are our goal here.
“Maybe I'm the minority, Dan, but I am capable of listening to your views. Sometimes I agree, sometimes I don’t. I’m one of those people who don’t think that just because you vote one way that you have to be in total agreement.“
ONLY A REPUBLICAN. I never hear/see this from our side! Because when you’re values are based on compassion for fellow beings, “differences of opinion” mean more than just the size of the deficit and how much you’d like to have a beer with a presidential candidate.
This reminds me of “Angels in America” — Joe was in love with Louis despite their “differences of opinion” and could not understand why Louis was breaking up with him over the brutal opinions he’d written for a conservative circuit judge. “Hey, you love me? Fuck you!” ~ Louis
THROAT’s response was perfect. I still can’t shake this vague unease about their arrangement, but that’s really NOMB.
Mr Lion - The men I count as straight chasers are exclusively into really straight men, revel in the perception of gay inferiourity to straights, and get off on straight expressions of anti-gay attitudes, especially when expressed against genuine gays who don't enjoy being degraded or oppressed. They convince the Feeder that he is God's Gift to All Gays. They actively want straight society to think all gays are just like them.
For role players, it's not the safest kink, but it's just a game that most of them manage to stop before anything dangerous happens.
You might know better than I would whether the real kind are dying out. It would be pleasant.
All this talk of Sam and throat has me going again. TGIF off to git myself some!
I can see why this situation makes some gay men uncomfortable. It comes across as a non-reciprocal degrading act, sexualization of gay men, and likely bring up some related issues. My position re trans women being fetishized and/or assumed to be sex workers is well documented..
The safety issues are common to both groups as well as sex workers of all shades, as it will often be the assumed-straight men who will resent the act once it’s over, blaming the other person to seduce them, sent by the devil or whatever.
@35 The percentage of gay men into this actively outside of fantasy is positively dinky relative to all other gay males. No way in hell would it present a credible threat to gay rights generally, even if it churns your stomach.
There are exceptionally few dominant guys into orientation play, and the quality of these dominants is also quite poor in this respect, since most are primarily findoms. They tack orientation play on as a secondary afterthought to reach a slightly wider audience, it's a strategy for getting donations rather than a sincerely-held kink. It seems to be a universal that more gay men are submissive than dominant, and this ratio is even worse in orientation play.
Essentially all public material this way is total fantasy made by submissives, the kinds of straight men depicted in their fantasies don't exist, at least not in the West right now. They almost certainly do exist more in homophobic countries, but since the fantasy is in response to experienced homophobia, as homophobic behaviors publicly cease, it becomes increasingly niche as homophobia stops being an important fear. It's not surprising guys who are capable of playing to this fantasy will be absolutely inundated in attention, they have no competition. Probably 95%+ of guys who play this out in the real world just find a bi/gay guy who's willing to play the role. The few who really won't compromise don't have sex.
Most gay men who will be in some way involved in this are 'passive,' they are capable of sleeping with straight/closeted men as a matter of convenience, but aren't specifically into the straight/gay aspect of it, or if they are, it isn't for humiliation or ideological reasons. Regardless of how you or I might feel about this behavior, it's unlikely to present a threat to gay rights, though this more direct and realistic behavior is more widespread and more likely to provoke abusive closet cases. Really, it's more an issue with the closet than with gay men who are seizing an opportunity.
@37 I really wish I could articulate this as well as you, that's a great way to put it.
I think you guys are not keeping separate these two writers. The kids are just young men, don't burden them with your hard won sexual freedoms. They just have them. For now. Like younger feminists have the benefits of what older feminists have fought for.
The guy writing the second letter, he sounds unpleasant and I couldn't even finish his letter. I can see why there has been a negative response from gay men to his words and energy.
Then again, he's not forcing anyone, and one assumes there is mutual benefit, even if there isn't mutual blow jobs.
Lava-we all have our triggers, we all have our baggage. As I recall a regular used to scold women with submissive tendencies for betraying feminism.
@40 I'm 25. My husband is 24. I'm not getting back into things with you but you keep talking as if we simply don't understand their youthful indiscretion and they're young innocents or something.
Mr Lion - To an extent, I'm happy to accept that I'm speaking historically. I encountered a good many more of these types than I wanted to know back when I was socially active, and would be pleased to know they are on the decline. However, you are thinking too literally about those who complete the act of servicing, while I am recalling the larger picture.
As repulsive as the Feeder and others of his ilk have proven, it's with straight men who clearly don't want to service MSMs and whose attitudes are at best neutral-cold where the damage has traditionally been done. These were the voters who passed all those ballot initiatives that re-elected Mr Bush fils. "Real gays" don't tend to get to know those men well, as their anti-gay shell repels us, but attracts straight-chasers, who give them the impression that all gays are like that because that's how all the "gays" they know actually are. And as long as we are dependent on the opinions of straight people, this will continue to plague us.
You sound so much older Lionface, you sure talk like you've lived, like me, for many yrs. so you're just a kid as well? Puts all your know it all BS into perspective.
Not sure what you're referring to CMD, my memory you know. Speak plain , if you're having a go at me.
I didn't say anything about youthful indiscretion, Lionface, they are buddies, mates. Not so hung up on labels and purity as some.
Now your rudeness makes more sense, my twenty six yr old son is just as uncivilised. Time will hopefully help you to grow the fuck up, and mind your own business about others' sex lives.
Correction, not mind your own business, because we all here sticking our noses there.. other people's business.
Show less judgement, because you are not the font of all that is gay, hey. Sam is gay and he's fine with his story.
Not your fault Lionface, the frontal lobe doesn't completely settle till a person is twenty five or so. It's biology.
Lava- some of us cringe when we find out that situation we believe to be demeaning or abusive turn out to be others’ fetishes/kinks/way of life.
For example, lesbian porn catering for het men can make some uncomfortable, same goes for gay porn for women. I was referring to a discussion few years back when the subject of women submitting to men in and out of the bedroom came up. Some of us expressed disappointment and worried about the potential setbacks to feminism if such sentiments are allowed.
@43 Look back in this thread and you'll see we're in agreement about which case is both more prevalent and more of an issue. Actively engaging in open self-loathing is rare, but simply being careless is still very common.
To a certain extent, that's just a personality thing, you can't get rid of that. Use and abuse always happens on some level. We can just be glad that this whole phenomenon is ultimately a relic, at least in the West. There will always be those who love to degrade and love to be degraded, thank god, but most people now, even vanilla people, have the good sense and good taste to know they can be degraded by people who love and care for them. All we can do is make being out good enough that we put this embarrassing trend/tendency to bed.
CMD @48: I'm one of those queer women who used to experience a Lionface-ish disgust at the concept of men looking at "lesbian" porn, because sapphic lust should be for OUR benefit, not for men's. (And it wasn't as if those models were lesbians anyway.) I was younger then and I admit that most of my repulsion was to do with my own not getting any pussy. And at one point I engaged myself in the thought exercise of, if I was going to look at porn, would I rather look at straight porn or gay male porn? Gay male porn of course, it feels much more taboo. At that point I forever stopped faulting straight men for looking at "lesbian" porn. Now I react with an eye roll, not a rant. Perhaps some day Lionface will have a similar epiphany to the concept of straight chasers, who are, as he says, a tiny proportion of the gay community, so why not roll your eyes and just let them enjoy their weird desires? So many of us are drawn to things we can't have or that are bad for us, this is just one example. Just count yourself lucky you, Lionface, aren't wired this way.
@51 Everyone here agrees people have every right to engage in whatever consensual behaviors they wish. Thank you, I do count myself extremely lucky for being gay.
@51 Straight men don't look at lesbian porn because it's taboo, it's not taboo for straight men at all. Straight men look at lesbian porn because women being complicit, willing partners in their sexualization toward straight men is arousing to straight men, and lesbian porn made for straight men generally is intended to imply that they are one penis away from a MFF threesome, dictated by the man. The pretense is that the men viewing it can and should have sex with them both, and that lesbianism is there for the man's pleasure and attention.
All of this you already know. For the record, I agree with your younger self, I think that's totally sleazy. Of course, it still happens, and it's consensual, right? So I guess now it's fine, everyone should just be quiet about it and be happy that the men are busting nuts.
Live and let live, that's a wonderful philosophy, Fan! Very big of you! I will be sure to work toward a greater appreciation of the positive effects of philosophies other than my own, for example, "a hole is a hole" or "any port in a storm."
I apologize for the sarcasm, Fan. I do respect where you're coming from and I get it. People are going to like what they like, I know that. Libido is more primal, more primary, than some pet moral crusade, I've always known that, and ultimately is it really hurting me or my husband? Certainly not. Don't worry about it, outside of Savage Love comment threads and one extremely niche spot on the internet, I never, ever bug people about this. Certainly there are those that do, though, those pro-straight blogs get just buckets of hate mail, and I do think a lot of that is unwarranted or silly, it's obviously kink.
Really, it's less that there's a concrete problem with it, and more that this so strongly resembles really shitty situations a lot of gay men naturally find themselves in. Rare indeed is the gay man who has not found himself drawn to a straight guy at some point in time, and of course who are the ones who are handed the blame and burden of closeted men? We, the out gay men, are blamed for their issues.
We are the ones who are turned to when other men are curious about their sexuality, and then, when they retreat from that position, inevitably immediately following sexual release, we are stuck footing the bill. We are left fixing the messes closeted men make. You must understand the degree of resentment that produces, why there is such a deep vein of animosity among certain out gay men, myself included, toward 'straight' men who do not act so straight. I personally have known straight men who have been great about it, and by all accounts, THROAT is one of them, but when the potential cost is so high, it's difficult, even dangerous, to mentally uncouple those two things. With time, that has become less the case, as I've stated pretty clearly, but that doesn't mean it doesn't still happen. Most of the world is still profoundly unwelcoming, and in those environments, these kinds of closeted men proliferate like the plague.
Glad you've enjoyed this conversation you've had with yourself, Lionface. Apology accepted. People gonna do what they gonna do no matter how much you bitch about it, so why raise your own blood pressure over it? Or make yourself look like a tedious bore on an unwinnable crusade?
Yes, as a bi female, I do understand the degree of resentment straight people of my gender can cause. Thanks for asking.
Only the boring are bored, Fan. I'd be lying if I said I didn't enjoy it. It's invigorating! Plus it's for a good cause.
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