As a guy who is in a similar position (married, bi, with a wife who lost interest in swinging), and who also has a pass to explore my bi side alone, I can attest, dude is very lucky, as am I. I was totally surprised at how accommodating my wife, and my girlfriend (poly triad for 3.5 years) have been, when it comes to me venturing out on my own. Hell they even said I was brave to ask for what I wanted! They are great partners in crime, they are just happy with the three of us.
Yes, thanks for not being a fucking Senator, Dan.
There’s plenty of gay dudes who want to play with straight married guys because it’s a fetish and it means no commitment. Go find them. And don’t forget to wrap it up.
"I tried to get in touch with my bisexual side, and found it pretty much missing."
You fell for the lie that everyone has that.
4 No, you fell for the lie that anybody ever said that they did.
Can hubby be convinced that her watching him IS bringing them together? If the alternative is driving them apart, then it's actually true anyhow.
You dropping out of swinging doesn't mean you're effectively pulling him out of swinging too, it means your husband will have to make more of an effort to find partners. Organized swinging clubs typically allow single women in, and a roughly equivalent number of single men. If your husband is willing to do the work necessary to ensure he is consistently one of the single men allowed he should be able to fulfill his desire to swing.
Maybe Dan should be a senator? He has a large following and knows a shit ton about politics and we know that he deeply truly cares and would fight for all of us. What do you say, Dan?
Dan for Senate! Another savage there would be great!
LW, you are an amazingly generous woman. I hope your husband knows how lucky he is.
So I'm going to echo @3 above. Even in a relatively rural area, your husband will be able to find other men to hook up with. Bagging a married guy is a major fetish for many gay men. Plus, there may very well be other bi guys out there who are just looking for a regular to scratch an itch with (this is the setup to many a gay porn scene).
The downside to this ease of access to sex with other men is sexually transmitted diseases. There are a lot of gay guys out there who have routine appointments set up with their doctor to get tested and/or treated for STIs. And while the big one, HIV, is nowhere near the killer it was 30 years ago, it's still a really big thing that would have a huge impact on your relationship.
So you are fully within your rights to lay some pretty stringent ground rules here. Like, for example, you should be allowed to vet your husband's potential partners, either by going over their profile and conversation or, better yet, meeting them in person. Remember, he will be thinking with his dick as he sets these things up. You can be the level-headed adult that keeps him from doing something stupid.
A few red flags to watch out for:
(1) Any kind of drug use. Some might say drinking, marijuana, poppers, and the like are OK. I'd still be cautious; all these things can lower inhibitions and lead to riskier sex. Anything like GHB, meth, or cocaine should be a no-go--watch out for "pnp" and random capital "T" in profiles. That signals meth use.
(2) Anyone who has to meet right now, or who otherwise pressures him into sex, especially risky sex. If the guy won't allow him time to think things through carefully or run it by you, that's no good.
(3) Obviously, anyone who lies or is cheating. Anyone not willing to share, at least privately, good recent pictures of themselves prior to meeting. Anyone who wants to jump into dangerous or risky kinks. Anyone who just gives you a bad vibe.
He should also tell you exactly where he's going to be (i.e. "123 Maple St., Apt 2" or "The Days Inn on the interstate, room 215")
It's entirely appropriate to ask for a regular STD panel (basically syphilis, gonorrhea, chlamydia + HIV) before you two get it on again. They're relatively inexpensive, even free in some places. And they also encourage him to be discussing the risks involved with his sex life with a doctor.
You won't be able to control how well he adheres to condom usage (you know how guys are the ones always complaining about them? You think two guys together would be any different?). But you can look into things like pre- and post-exposure prophylaxis, again depending on how often this happens.
As for him meeting women or swinger couples, that's not really my area of expertise. My advice about vetting these people and being very cautious about STDs still stands though.
It's a huge gift you're giving him. The least he can do is exercise it responsibly and in a way that protects you.
We have a situation like this. And like most open relationships we have a rule: "Don't ask, DO tell." He doesn't have to ask for permission to do anything, even to not use protection. But he must tell me what he's done so that I can make an informed choice about what I will do. When I was playing I followed the same rule. It works for us. Personal responsibility is the key to power.
I disagree with the whole "you're obligated to find strange for your spouse." I mean, if that's your kink, then go for it, but it's kinda bullshit that you're not only letting him swing but also finding his partners. Do you wipe his ass for him too? If he wants to screw around with men, he can put the effort in himself (it's really not that hard to find NSA dick).
Also, please, please PLEASE don't swing if you don't want to - especially not with women if you're not sexually attracted to them. Firstly, you shouldn't be having sex with people when you don't want to because it's not fair to you. Secondly, it's not fair to them. Women especially aren't thrilled to enter a sexual encounter only to realize halfway through (and yes, they will figure it out) that their partner isn't attracted to them. Unless you've established that "get sorta half-heartedly and resentfully pawed at by someone who doesn't want to be there, and sorta thinks your bits are gross" is her kink, don't put her through that. You owe yourself and them better.
Thank you, @5.
Yeah, my bullshit meter went off at "he feels like it will bring us closer together." No it won't; NCAS doesn't like it, so pressuring her to keep doing it will push her away, dude. He just knows a couple will pull more swingers than a single dude, so he wants to use her to get other partners. Not cool.
Another thing that jumped out at me was that NCAS said she did enjoy watching hubby with the other men and woman. Great! Perhaps they could go to swingers' clubs (or post ads) together, but make it clear that NCAS is a voyeur only, and that's a hard limit. That sounds like a good GGG compromise to me, alongside his taking an active role in seeking strange on his own.
Great comments from @1, @10 and @12.
@10 Corydon...bravo! That definitely outlines what she needs to know. While I haven't seen a line of gay guys beating a path to my door, I'm probably just advertising in the wrong places. I'm looking for more fwb types so I stayed on the swinger sites mostly rather than grindr and the like. Those apps kind of skeeve me out a bit...where's the romance? LOL
Had to chime in, Dan. While I'd hate on your behalf to see you in DC because I live here and it's a really weird place, it'd be great if you did run for office of any kind. I'd love to just to see you debate someone.
@12: I agree that no one is "obligated to find strange for [their] spouse." Which is why I said this in my response: "You aren't obligated to get your husband laid..."
I'm firmly on team "don't have unwanted sex to try to help your husband get laid"
But I disagree with Corydon @10 -- I don't think one person should be picking another person's partners. I do think she can give her husband advice about safety (if he wants to hear it), and she can ask him to get tested regularly, and she can start using condoms with her husband if she wants to.
17@Dan. But when you go "you're not obligated BUUUUUUT you don't want him to get resentful and jealous, do you? You want to be supportive, don't you?" you're basically saying "ok, you're not obligated, but if you were a good spouse you would, and if you don't he's probably going to resent you," which is basically the same thing.
EricaP @18: I read Dan's advice as helping vet partners, not picking them.
Hubby's being a dick if he's asking you to do something you don't want to do. But you did say, "I was happy to see him getting off, and getting something I couldn’t give him..." So if it works, and he can stop pressuring you to participate, tag along and watch, but as others have said, don't get involved. He shouldn't be asking for more than an "I'm OK with this" from you, you shouldn't have to be his pimp. If he can't get the girls, too bad. Unfortunately, this smacks of all too many men's entitled attitudes. "I want it so YOU have to give it to me." Bullshit. Maybe step back and consider why you'd want to hang out with ANY asshole who pressures you to do something you don't want to do, especially your spouse, who is supposed to love and care for you.
BiDan@20 ~ "...helping vet partners, not picking them..."
What is this guy, 13 years old? Unless she enjoys the game, he can vet his own damn partners. I once interviewed a 55 year old man for an entry level portrait photographer's job (think: no experience needed, perfect for fresh-out-of-school types) he came in with his wife, who answered ALL the questions for him! He could talk, because he said hello, but after that it was all her. Total Walter Mitty (if you get that reference)...I had to bite my tongue to keep from laughing.
Maybe I'm being a bit of a prude here (though as a kinky, bi, genderfluid person, I don't think I am), but being coerced into anything sexual that makes you feel uncomfortable or disturbing is not acceptable. Ever. No matter the relationship. It is a type of sexual and psychological abuse, just as much as date-rape by coercion is.
Donny @21: Oh come on, you can't empathise with a person whose spouse agrees to something he's always fantasised about, helps make it a reality, and it's everything you ever dreamed it would be and you can't wait to do it over and over again with this person you love? He's not an asshole for wanting this ideal (for him) situation to continue. He would be an asshole if he -pressured- her to continue. Can't say from the letter whether this is "pressure" or just "discussion."
Donny @22: No, but he is the owner of a dick, which Dan correctly pointed out that he -- like most of us -- might be using to do his vetting. His wife is probably a better judge of character. Being his wingman may make both their lives easier if she sees red flags he doesn't. And I am codgerly enough to get the Walter Mitty reference, yes. Secret life indeed. So did the guy get the job? ;-)
More sympathetically, is it possible he had some type of learning difficulty? (Trust political correctness to ruin a funny story...)
BiDan@24 ~ Good point about keeping track of where the mutual dick is residing...
Forget jealousy, go directly to resentment. They need couples counseling to resolve this impasse. Trying to resolver it themselves hasn't worked, As it now stands there is going to disappointment, bitterness, and resentment for one or the other, which is going to spill over to other aspects of their marriage. If they are twinkies then she could give on this in exchange for the right to make career decisions (to move or not to move)
Skeptic @26: "Trying to resolve it themselves hasn't worked..." Hence writing to Dan. Whose advice they seemed happy with. Not every couple with a single sticking point "needs therapy."
This woman is falling all over herself to please her husband and he doesn't seem to care that she has found these sexual experiences "increasingly uncomfortable". She is so worried that she's "taking something important" away from him but he's also taking something important away from her! They absolutely do need therapy because there is a clear power imbalance in this relationship and she lacks the ability to assert her own needs. It's more than just a question of who they do or don't fuck.
I take the husband's saying that he thinks their dating together will connect them more seriously than some other posters. Sure, he could well think this; and he isn't really listening to the LW's saying that her heart isn't in swinging. Possibly the mindset, on Mr Not-Catchy's part, is that he needs his wife's permission, even her presence, to explore his gayness. He may not be that experienced as a gay lover; and swinging is dipping his toe in the ocean for him.
They could swing together, with her as a watcher only...though the thought has to occur to anyone that this isn't the only robust or available solution to their mismatch. Isn't what he should do to get out there and find men? I would think the reading-in-between-the-lines of The Misanthrope @3 correct: he is something like a 'closeted straight husband', not necessarily a self-hating or homophobic one, and he should accept enough of this social identity as is necessary for him to find (a) lover(s). It may be scary for him--but there's not necessarily anything to be afraid of. His relationship with his wife will improve, if he is honest about who he is and unashamed of both his urges and hesitations. It will improve more if he explores this way i.e. on his own, on a 'pass' or in an open relationship, than if he tries to pressgang No-Catchy into swinging.
@28. Basidia. What is he taking away important from her? He is trying to get her to do something she doesn't want to do. And she isn't doing it. (Quite right; she is in no way obligated). So they are at 'an impasse'. How would you think 'a clear power imbalance in the relationship' manifests itself?
@30 He's taking away her feelings personal comfort, space and security by pressuring her into sexual situations that she not only says she doesn't enjoy but describes as "more and more uncomfortable." Remember that she was reluctant to try it in the first place. Read again how he responded to her concerns:
"But he wants to swing with me, because he feels like it will bring us closer together. He also worries he won’t find a partner without me."
That sounds like pure self-interest on his part and definitely pressure. And even if, as you think, he truly believes that swinging together is bringing them together he's still deciding what's best for her instead of listening to her actual feelings.
In the next part it's clear that she has not, in fact, refused to participate yet:
"I don’t want to swing again, because our last experiences were so uncomfortable. But I also feel like I’m taking something important away from my husband if I say we can’t swing again. (He can’t exactly explore his bisexuality with just me.) This issue is impacting our marriage, and we’ve got two small kids together. Please help!"
This is how a power imbalance manifests. She's been bending over backwards to accommodate his needs while he is disregarding the deep discomfort she's felt while making the effort. She also worries about the security of her family if she puts her foot down so she hasn't. And somehow she's blaming herself for her husband's inability to explore his bisexuality even though she's given him full blessing to do that on his own.
BDF @ 27 I should have reversed my comments, but point taken. [Trying to resolver it themselves hasn't worked. They need couples counseling to resolve this impasse.] The problem with relying just on DS advice is that there will be no follow up. While he has presented several good options, DS will probably never know how they played out in the real world. A downside of her not participating is that she will have no idea what risks he is taking. Is she going to avoid sex with him until he receives a clean bill of health after each solo adventure? What happens if he brings home something and gives it to her? When they were swinging they would take the same risks. I do hope DS advice results in positive outcomes.
Harriet @29: Most commenters -- and Dan -- are focusing on Mr NCAS's same-sex desires. He wants to sleep with both other men and other women. NCAS says, "He can’t exactly explore his bisexuality with just me" -- that suggests to me that what he wants isn't (just) one-on-one cock but group fun involving both sexes. So yes, while it will be easy for Mr NCAS to get on Grindr and find gay/bi/heteroflexible/closeted men, he's correct that it won't be so easy to find couples. But it isn't impossible. Perhaps Dan can put him in touch with BLOW from the weekly column... ;-)
Skeptic @32: Unless the LW writes in, which is rare (LWs! Please write back with follow-ups! Dan! Please print them!), you're right that we won't know whether they took Dan's advice or whether it worked. This letter, however, is a bit of a call-and-response with the final paragraph indicating that both partners have taken Dan's advice on board. It could just be that this husband needed to hear it from someone else. As for risks, this man's an adult and fully capable of (a) using condoms and (b) having conversations. If he's not able to discuss safer sex with his wife or his lovers, he shouldn't be having sex at all.
"I do hope DS advice results in positive outcomes." -- Wow! Coming from you, this is a ringing endorsement indeed! ;-)
BDF @ 33 "As for risks, this man's an adult and fully capable of (a) using condoms and (b) having conversations." I was thinking more in the way of lice or a UTI (men do get them, most often from deep sounding) It depends on where his explorations take him. How often do people lament. Well it seemed like a good idea at the time (most often when they are young or an advanced state of intoxication)
I can't say that I always wish people well, good fortune, or positive outcomes. but I generally do even though I don't explicitly state that. I exclude people who have done something truly reprehensible (men who cheat on their pregnant wives comes to mind, but I do have great sympathy for the wives and hope their outcomes are positive) I hope I don't come across as some fire breathing, fundamentalist zealot condemning people to hell and damnation. I know I can be argumentative and tend to look at the negatives outcomes of a situation. Since most commenters look for the positive outcomes, counter point is important for anyone to make the best decision they can. I am great believer in the iron law of unintended consequences. No matter how well intentioned the advice or the noble the purpose, the unintended (or unforeseen) consequences often outweigh the benefits (sometimes with heartbreaking results).
I accept as unescapable the fact that what I write (with a certain frame of reference and mindset) can be read entirely differently by some one else. I think that I seldom make simple declarative statements such as "someone is pure evil and are doomed to eternal damnation"
"It could just be that this husband needed to hear it from someone else." It could be a communication issue [he didn't really hear (didn't want to hear?) what his wife was saying] .
Writing something may be easier than saying it verbally (I love them and don't want to hurt them can result in self censorship). In writing to DS she clearly and coherently stated what bothered/troubled/hurt/offended her. It may have helped her husband understand her and in turn respond to her concerns (who knows, I certainly don't know, not being privy to their subsequent conversations)
@31. Basidia. So when she says, 'the issue is impacting our marriage, and we have two small kids', you think that she's worrying he will leave her if she doesn't swing? That's what you mean by 'the security of her marriage'? There isn't any warrant in the letter, for me, to suggest this is on the cards. If she fears it, she needs to talk to him. Ask 'what will happen, in your mind, if I draw the line' in refusing to swing? 'If I tell you that it can never bring us closer together?' And then listen to his answer. Hopefully, it will just be, 'oh, I'm really sorry I pressured you so much. I didn't know it was such a hard 'no' for you'.
She tried swinging three times. Not many? All the scenarios sound like foursomes, with the SS participants pairing off. She hated it (more or less). She's entitled to hate it. To say 'never again'. But why did they go for that configuration? Did she allow her husband to believe she had a hidden Sapphic side she wanted to explore? It is surely reasonable that he wants to push her to try again--a fourth time, and in some other format. After all, a number of commentators have suggested the road forward may be her going swinging purely as voyeur.
It would also seem that the solution of his getting a tightly negotiated bi hall pass hadn't occurred to either of them. Why? This would seem a fairly fundamental work-around. It can only be because they've been at cross-purposes in contradicting themselves, going back on offers they've made before. OK, this is where they are right now. Let her husband accept where she is, and what she's offered him, without reservation.
I can't see that his just encouraging her to do something she resists (if that's all it is) is 'pressuring her'.
@33. Bi. Would you think that their swinging experience was trying a foursome, men and women pairing off, three times? And unsuccessfully? I think he wants to have sex with her there. (There are still possibilities for this--maybe). But I also thought (suspected) he wanted this because it gave her sanction for his gay sex. That it would be in some way mentally forbidden for him otherwise. She would be breaking the logjam of a certain degree, on his part, of internalised homophobia. Well, she's done this already by saying 'go ahead, fuck a guy', but don't break up our marriage and keep it within boundaries. It would be unreasonable for him to ask her for any further kind of blessing.
@34. A Skeptic. You cannot go through life worrying, 'but what about lice?' With your two self-reflective comments, I think you're coming to agree.
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