Don't have kids.

@1: Solid advice.

To me it feels like the husband is gas-lighting the LW, at least that is my take.It doesn't seem like he is really willing to discuss the specifics as they pertain to his being OK with the situation.

I do agree with Dan though.
Absolutely get it in writing!!!! But in email, not just text, and go ahead and print it up.

Plenty of poly/ethical non-monogamous people have their agreements in writing, along with definitions of various things (what is a "stranger" in this case).
Some examples I use...
What does sex mean (you think you know, but your partner may have a very different idea than you do)?
When do barriers need to be used (again you think you know, but... PIV/PIA, oral, hand job/fingering, etc.)?
STD testing of potential partners, what, when, how often, for what?

Yeah, he could be trying to set her up, but he could honestly have a really shitty memory, or could be saying stuff when he's under the influence of drugs and then not remember it later.

Yeah, get it in writing.

Text can also be the worst way to discuss this topic. I've tried every means of communication with my wife to get straight answers and set boundaries regarding a monogamish arrangement (to no avail sadly)...but text seems to set off the worst arguments of all. It may be good in terms of getting it in writing...but very bad in terms of the emotionally hollow and body-language-cueless delivery that comes with text-only communication. Just my 2 cents.

what a hassle!

Feels gaslighty as all heck.

The first thing i thought of when reading was "just put it in writing". Was glad to see Dan had a similar first thought.

I don't think agreeing on if you can or cannot fuck other people, whichever choice is made, that it will repair your own crumbling sex life. Sure, Mr. Tonight might be able to diddle and fiddle more orgasms out of you in a night than your husband has in the past year, but I don't forsee that leading up to you having quality sex with your husband. Nor do I see him fucking an adventurous college girl making him look forward to having sex with his steadfast wife either.

Marital counseling, sex therapy, you guys almost need that kind of treatment that they give kids with Reactive Attachment Disorder - learn to rely and trust each other for everything most of all, from there you can open things up.

I was surprised that this tale was missing the usual "let's have an open relationship so I can get some strange, damn, wife is getting all the strange and I'm getting nothing so let's not have an open relationship after all" element.

What if he meant no Stranger staff? Like, he's over it how much the Stranger sucks nowadays and doesn't want her hooking up with any of the writers?

Screw gaslighting, at this point, I'm wondering if there's an actual carbon monoxide leak in the house.

He's cheating.

I can't help noticing that the LW seems entirely focused on what she can get her husband to agree to, as opposed to how he actually feels about it, or how he might react to it.

Sure, getting something in writing gives you ammunition to use in a subsequent argument- but that begs the question of why you want to do something you suspect will cause a big argument with your spouse. Seems like a strategy better suited to, say, filing a lawsuit than sustaining a happy marriage.

I was thinking the same thing as @12... I wonder if the LW has Aspergers or something.

@7, spot on. Although my personal reaction is to run as far and fast as possible.

Sure, get it in writing, but don't expect him to not still tell you that whatever you did or want to do isn't what he meant.

@12, 13 - yes, and why isn't curious about who he has been fucking? And what about STI tests?

I wouldn't put up with this. Have the conversations in front of a counselor, or just tell him what you're going to do, tell him when you're heading out on a date, and remind him about it when you got home. If he denies reality for too long, you may have to leave.

DTMFA. This is a total disaster waiting to happen. She needs to get out now and, please god, don’t get pregnant.

I had to read ATALOSS' letter again because I didn't understand that prior to their marriage, while their agreement was that threesomes, swinging, and women (for ATALOSS) were all acceptable, none of these sexual adventures ever took place (i.e., they were, and have been a monogamous couple). Yet, ATALOSS' husband has always hinted that for ATALOSS, the relationship is wholly non-monogamous.

Dan, you know who really has difficulties talking about sex with their spouses? Men who want their wives to have sex with other men (hotwife or cuckolding relationships), but are afraid that it will turn their spouse off to hear them say that they are aroused by the idea of themselves being entirely faithful and honoring their monogamous commitment, while their wife is having lots of sex with other men.

ATALOSS, I am going to give you a special snooping dispensation, and tell you to snoop through any porn your husband might be viewing on his computer or phone. Check all the usual places (porn collection, browser history, open iPhone webpages, Tumblr account, etc.) and see if he has been viewing or reading any hotwife or cuckolding material. What to do if you find no electronic evidence? Before writing that e-mail or text message Dan mentioned, I would raise the issue of your having sex with other men while talking dirty before or during sex with him and seeing how your husband reacts.

A bit of forewarning, if I am correct, ATALOSS, the relationship model that I think your husband enjoys can initially be a bit of an emotional roller coaster for men whose wives start having sex outside their marriage. So don't be surprised to find yourself writing Dan in another six months wondering why your husband wants to shutdown your extramarital sex when you're both really enjoying these experiences.

What a mind fuck.

Dan @2: Don't feed Commentor Commentatus's latest troll alias!!!

Is this guy Trump? "I meant non-monogamy when I said monogamy." Can he stick to a story in other contexts? I agree, get it in writing, but in a pen-and-paper-and-signature kind of way in case you get a new phone or something. And yes, get EVERYTHING in writing because this guy's changed his story so many times. Which apps are ok? What constitutes sex? What does he want to be told and not told? Does he get a veto? Is their bed off limits? Having written all this out, it seems such a nuisance that I personally would be inclined to give up on the idea of non-monogamy and just work on improving my sex life with hubby, which seems to be what he wants too -- and she says he "can be a great lover." Why not find some other way of getting sexual energy from outside the relationship -- going to bars or joining apps and flirting, or revisiting the swinging idea -- rather than navigate this minefield?

Also, I agree that this guy's definition of their relationship probably varies depending on whether HE'S currently fucking someone else.

Hubby: I told you I was fucking your best friend!
LW: YOU DID NOT!
Hubby: Well what did you THINK I meant!?

LW has much bigger problems than "what can I get away with?"

Find out who your husband is having sex with (or whether he's been fucking other women). The pattern of his changes of position suggests to me he's appeasing a guilty conscience.

Essentially you just want to have good sex (to bring that 'sexual energy' back to your husband). It isn't that important to you whether you're fucking your husband or someone else. You see fucking someone else as a way of keeping your marriage going. But the most likely reason the sex in your marriage has got boring, or infrequent, is that your husband is cheating on you.

Get clear on the facts first--calmly and without wildly expressing blame. @3 nartweag and @7 Sportlandia are right to see gaslighting. Why is he doing this? Find out.

@20 Don't lecture Dan!!!

Besides, Dan and Mr Keck realize that Seattle law forbids discrimination based on political opinion.
That deleting commenter accounts just because the facts they present expose the holes in Leftist ideology is illegal in this town.
Dan and Mr Keck probably feel bad that their stooge minions have been doing that, setting them up for fat lawsuits and sanctions.
No doubt their lawyers have pointed out to them that the ACLU makes Big Bucks suing and collecting legal fees from companies with deep pocket owners like theirs who discriminate.

@10 Traffic, @11 mightydoll & @20 Bi are all apt responses to what the letter describes.

'For me marriage is monogamous': does this mean:

'I am going to remain monogamous in this marriage'

or

'To my mind, marriage is a different order of commitment to an unmarried relationship, and my expectation is that we will both remain monogamous in our upcoming marriage'?

It means the second. I'm a lawyer; I twist words for a living. But only up to a point. The LW understood the second, and the second almost certainly was meant.

The LW wrote,"One of the reasons I want to get out there is to feel desirable and bring that sexual energy back to him!". Is this really possible for a woman in a LTR (marriage or other arrangement)? Wouldn't the NRE from the new lover essentially put the husband in the friend zone or "trusted family member" zone because there's nothing new to explore like it is with a new lover? Wouldn't all of this NRE translate into minimal sexual contact with the husband over time?
Many people fantasize about the benefits of doing what she proposes but find that reality is something different. There's no practical way to predict how one will react to a new situation because human nature itself is so unpredictable.
So my question to the women who have been in a longterm, monogamous relationship for more than 7 years, who then opened their relationship is, were you able to turn that NRE into a rekindled, super hot sexual relationship with your long term partner?

I think Harriet @23 nails it. It seems highly likely to me that the husband is changing his mind to fit what he wants to do or is doing. In which case the wife needs to get tested, and force a conversation (as non-antagonistically as possible). Although I agree texting may be a bad form of communication, I also agree that doing it in writing is good--not just for "proof" but because it gives you time to reflect and you can look over the wording again if you need to clarify. How about a letter (email or snail)? Sometimes people do better on hard communication when they have time to sit down and think about how/what to say.

ATALOSS characterizing hubby as having "horrible communication skills" is quite generous. I'm concerned it's gaslighting and/or some significant mental/memory issue(s). Dan's suggestions for accommodating hubby's communication deficiencies are practical, but if he's a gaslighter he'll counter by churning up even more confusion to combat her attempts at creating clarity. Knowing what we know now I wonder if we'd advise her to have ever married this guy; I would urge her to consider getting out if hubby won't get help.

Is Dan just ignoring the fact that he threatened to call off the wedding until she submitted to his will? He's a liar and an asshole. People like this are the reason the word gaslighting exists. Do not trust this person, no matter what they say or what medium they use to say it. Liars do not care about evidence.

Just say this to your husband:

"we need to have a discussion about monogamy, non-monogamy, and openness and what it means to you and to me. We need to come to a resolution about what is/isn't acceptable, and who is/isn't acceptable. We need to agree on disclosure/nondisclosure (it can be different for each of us). After we have discussed and agreed we will write it down in great detail so we don't have this level of confusion in the future. Of course, it is always up for renegotiation, but if we renegotiate we need to have a similar discussion and resolution. Also, are you a cuckold?"

@29 TheLastComment
That makes such a good Last Comment that I hesistate to add another.

So many good observations above. That people's communication skills may suffer with such a topic they feel anxiety/insecurity about. That people's statements might differ depending upon what they are doing themselves. That some people just have poor memories. (And that texting isn't the best place to put in writing something so consequential.)

But as @29 TheLastComment said, that pre-Wedding ultimatum is a very bad sign.

I'm skeptical that her gaslighting hubby would even benefit from therapy. Is gaslighting something people are likely to overcome? A quick look at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaslighting tells me they are often not doing so consciously, so I can say this:

Subconscious behavior grounded in personality disorders can be futile for others to try to modify. The perpetrator's subconscious does not want it's toxic behavior pattern taken away, so it will influence the person's conscious self to disregard any number of examples, and refuse to acknowledge let alone agree to seek help, let alone to actually change. More likely, when subconscious toxic behavior is named by others, the perpetrator's subconscious will actually craftily exponentially increase the toxic behavior to punish the victim for seeking to "take away" this toxic behavior pattern from it (to dissuade in the future naming it again).

Oh, and suggesting that behavior may be unconscious in no way reduces the full blame for it the hubby deserves. She has every right to DTMFA. It would serve him right if she kicked him in the balls on her way out the door. But hey she isn't blameless either, she has so far chosen him and thus chosen to accept this behavior; whatever happens she could benefit from therapy herself to avoid settling for such a person with such behavior in the future/next time.

He's a gaslighter. DTMFA.

I think that Dan's response is an example of a pattern I've noticed of him addressing an aspect of a letter he's superb at (such as open relationships), but not addressing psychological danger signs that are of significantly greater concern. I know Dan isn't a mental health pro, but in the advice column biz I think it behooves one to be alert for critical psychological problems and if needed call in appropriate backup.

Get it written in blood, then when he denies he ever signed it you can get the blood verified as his. Geez, then he’ll accuse you of stealing his blood while he slept.
This guy is psycho LW, get away before he does your head in.

JuanMas @26 "Wouldn't the NRE from the new lover essentially put the husband in the friend zone?"

No.

"Wouldn't all of this NRE translate into minimal sexual contact with the husband over time?"

No.

"So my question to the women who have been in a longterm, monogamous relationship for more than 7 years, who then opened their relationship is, were you able to turn that NRE into a rekindled, super hot sexual relationship with your long term partner?"

Yes. We've been married two decades. We were monogamous for the first decade or so, while the kids were young. Since then we've been open and, yes, our marital sex is certainly hotter than it was when our kids were young. Much less "wham bang thank you maam" and much more creativity, dirty talk, and kink. Some of the dirty talk is talking about me fucking other people (both imagined and actual) and some of it is just new stuff we connect about now that we talk about sex a whole lot more.

Plus Mr. P. dates other people on his own. What's not to like?

Did anyone else read the headline, and immediately think "DTMFA"? (I don't often do that.)

Ms Roseanne - My first, though not immediate, response was that Husband deserved to be dumped, but I'm not sure that LW deserves to dump him.

@34 LavaGirl
"Get it written in blood...then he’ll accuse you of stealing his blood while he slept."

This is so true. It's amazing the lengths (both consciously and unconsciously) to which a disordered person will go to protect their dysfunctional patterns. I had a family member whose intelligence was only truly apparent from how crafty their subsconscious was in fucking with people.

Reading this letter, and the comments, has helped me understand the current political situation in the US much better.

ATALOSS: I don't know you or your husband, but does he have strong beliefs (in whatever), is he particularly religious, have a strong belief in the Christian god (I am assuming that you are at lest nominally Christians), in a personal relationship to that god or the concept of the soul? Excluding the issue of having an open marriage, does he take his promises and commitments to you and agreements with you seriously? Did you have a traditional religious ceremony (Dearly Beloved, We are gathered here in the presence of God to witness and bless the exchanging of vows that will bind) and vows (forsaking all others)?

Mental stress or discomfort experienced by an individual who holds two or more contradictory beliefs, ideas, or values at the same time, performs an action that is contradictory to one or more beliefs, ideas or values, or is confronted by new information that conflicts with existing beliefs, ideas, or values is called cognitive dissonance. Avoidance is a way to deal with cognitive dissonance.

Personally, I've never understood why (except for family/social pressure) people make commitments (unrealistic as they may be that) they know in advance that they have no intention of honoring. I can understand why people get cold feet about doing so (the ultimatum 2 weeks before the wedding)

As I said, I don't know you or your husband. I am trying to rule out possibilities, unlikely though they may be.

Don't text. Talk in front of a counsellor who will demand that your husband be clear.

No, no, no, no, no, no!

The problem is that the husband is absolutely not OK with wife sleeping with other men period end of sentence, but he is experiencing the cognitive dissonance of a self-perception that he is open and swinging and all that. So mixed signals when pressed. I imagine this is a problem with the wife to a certain extent too as they did make plans for threesomes and swinging without doing it and she sought permission for sex with women and even dated women without doing it.

They need to have a serious IN PERSON conversation about what their actually want in real life in their sexualities and not what they want to think of themselves as wanting. And while getting some stuff in writing might be good to cut through that delusion and face what they are actually talking about, it's a bad bad bad approach for the wife to get the husband on paper saying she can do a thing and then going out and doing it and trying to use that paper (or text conversation) as proof that the thing she did was fine and dandy. This is not a law or a courthouse- having a document proving the husband said it was OK is not going to prevent consequences to their relationship.

If they do step out of their marriage, they should baby step it. First swing together or threesome. Then move on up to other encounters. And loads of face to face talking.

This "get it in text" advice is TERRIBLE.

LastComment @29: Another vote for yours as the eureka comment. Run, ATALOSS, run!

@42 EmmaLiz
"cognitive dissonance" is a valid theory, particularly as diagnosing someone's psychological disorder from a single short letter written by someone else isn't an exact science. That said, I'm not personally familiar with cognitive dissonance driving someone to such manipulative extremes. Oh heck I haven't personally known a gaslighter either. (No shortage of narcisists and pathological liars and passive agressives, or course.) But I digress.

But I still like the 'gaslighting' theory, I think it fits better with hubby's pattern of abuse. But for all we and ATALOSS know it's something else entirely and even worse. Maybe he's just using gaslighting as a technique to break her down before he cannibalizes her (facetious example; my point is just that we can't be sure from a letter).

Gaslighting gaslighting gaslighting gaslighting gaslighting gaslighting.

LW’s Dear Hubby is trying to set LW up for a fall.

It is SO NICE to FINALLY see some legit gaslighting, since so many people seem to want to use the term, but end of up using it incorrectly. This, finally, is gaslighting. And it's rare, people. Drink deeply. The next 20 accusations of gaslighting are likely to NOT be gaslighting...

@29 My thoughts exactly.

How are you both upset about the lack of sex you are having together? That seems like an easy fix: do the thing you both want to do. He strikes me as incredibly manipulative. Or insane. Or both.

Strong emotions are often a barrier to effective communication.

ATALOSS: What else is happening in your life? Sex is not (can not be) isolated from the rest of your life. Stress can affect memory and sex drive. Given that you've been together for nine years (married for 3) I assume that you are in your mid to late 30 years. How much stress is your husband under at work, what is his profession and where is he at in his career, does he bring work home with him (actual work), can he compartmentalize work and personal life, does he work 40, 60, 80 hours a week?

I know everyone is saying DTMFA, but her husband is so clearly gaslighting her, he actually seems pretty sadistic, so I had to add my own - DTMFA!! Like yesterday! I usually agree with Dan's advice but I really wish he'd just called this for what it is and told the LW to get out now. LW - your marriage and your husband are not fixable. He's an ass. Find someone who isn't.

I'll skip responding to the fact that none of us know this people and therefore it's absurd to speculate about their mental statuses- of course it is. We can only make assumptions based on what they say, obviously. We can't actually know if they are gas lighting or narcissistic or any number of things- we can only look at the evidence in the letters and speculate. What else is there to do? I don't see what extremes you are talking about it driving the person to- all the husband has done is say a bunch of contradictory stuff that has distressed his wife. While that's damaging to their relationship and her mental health- perhaps even to the point of breaking apart the marriage- it's hardly an extreme response to cognitive dissonance. What would you consider to be less extreme or "normal" response to such a state? I propose they seem themselves as especially open and exciting sexually- the reality is that they are rather prudish. In the wife's case, this manifests as her saying she can have certain experiences (swinging, threesomes, girlfriends) then never going through with them. Husband does a similar thing, telling the wife she can do this or that, but then when pressed on it (when the possibilities become a reality) he backtracks but avoids any real acknowledgement of the contradiction by continuing to pretend actually he really is totally open, she just misunderstood, etc. I see similar things regarding people who say they want to change their lifestyles in all sorts of way- they have a self-perception of themselves as free spirited or adventuresome or whatever when in reality they are creatures of habit or routines or whatever and so instead of facing this contradiction and reconciling it with a change of self-perception that more accurately reflects reality, they make some excuse as to why they would live X lifestyle if not for Y and this carries them through the decades. I don't think it's any accident that the last death rattle of lots of marriages includes people finally trying to give X lifestyle a shot (maybe if we quit our jobs and buy those motorcycles, maybe if we open up our marriage)- often when they have to finally face those contradictions it all falls apart and one or both partners have to admit that X isn't really the way they want to live.

Gaslighting involves intent right? I'm saying this husband might be super deluded as well. The wife doesn't actually sound too self-aware herself is what I'm adding. She wants more and better sex but doesn't have it with her husband. She agreed to an open relationship that involved swinging and threesomes but then never actually had swinging or threesome experiences. She agreed to an arrangement that would let her sleep with women but then never actually wanted to sleep with women. So now she's saying she wants to have sex with other men solo and her husband is sometimes giving permission and sometimes not, and she's never actually done it. What I'm saying is it's possible that what she wants is the illusion that she's in an open relationship as well. This is obviously what the husband wants, and it's possible that the wife might not be so different based on her past behavior.

@51 EmmaLiz
I think what you say is ALSO true. I think your observation that they both appear not to be the people they think they are is bright, aware, and insightful. I always find EmmaLiz interesting.

"Gaslighting involves intent right?"

According to the wiki URL I posted upthread, it's not uncommon for gaslighters to not be conscious of their gaslighting. But (as I posted upthread) behavior by the subconscious is driven by 'intent' that is entirely unconscious...so only if by "intent" you include subconscious intent is the answer to your question "yes".

But that doesn't stop it from being the behavior pattern almost all of us are (I think correctly) calling gaslighting which is (as I posted upthread) the husband's fault regardless of whether the pattern is consciously intended.

@46 Yes, this annoys me so much. "Gaslighting" has almost become a meaningless buzzword. People use it when someone says something they don't like, and/or something against their political agenda. Gaslighting isn't just when someone says something wrong or mean. It's a very specific form of manipulation and abuse and LW's situation fits the definition perfectly.