I've been to swing clubs in my home town...one that I went to was nicer and cleaner than any regular club I've ever been to. But the people were very cliquey, just hard to talk to. The other one I wouldn't let any naked part of my body touch anything in the club. Totally gross, but the people were very friendly and super easy to talk to. At neither of the clubs I've been to would that ass grabbing behavior have been tolerated, and the perp would have been banned and shown the door.

I will say that women get way more of a pass behaviorally at these clubs but it is pretty rare for them to get out of hand, although boob grabbing is pretty common. Swingers are partiers, especially the club crowd, but even then grabbing a stranger would be uncommon. I'm not a fan of the club crowd because I just don't dig the anonymity. Love group stuff, but like LW, I prefer people I know.

As far as your partner going and you not liking that, I think the best bet is to insist on showers after, or the DADT thing (although that is a bit of a crutch). I think it is better to own your shit and work through it, you'll come out happier in the end. I am sure I get covered in more muck flying coach than in a swinger club.

My limited swinger sample size...

Swing clubs and kink clubs do not operate on the same consent rules. There is no implied consent at kink clubs. There is some implied consent at swing clubs, which varies from club to club, but I would find (as LW has) that most swingers regard women grabbing other women's boobs as a given. Most swingers would also regard anyone Trumping your below-the-waist sex organs as a bootable offense.
Swing clubs are, by and large, very white, tend to be upper income, and tend to be very superficial, because the swing scene has become a race to the top (bottom?), where everybody has sex pretty much the same way, and the less attractive people get less attention, feel excluded, and stop coming, so you get a self-fulfilling prophecy. In fact some of the "best" swing clubs filter by appearance in advance - if you're not meeting the physical ideal, you're not getting the address.
Men at swing clubs tend to be creepy. They usually have enough money to have one trophy wife, but not enough social skills to have a girlfriend. Relatively well-off white guys with social skills don't go to swing clubs because they don't have to share with other men, so why would they?
LW almost certainly has never experienced consent violations going to swing clubs by himself because he's a dude.
Swing clubs tend to involve a lot of sex. So if LW's BF enjoys being immersed in lots of sex, with lots of people, then swing clubs may appeal to him.
If LW's BF is able to go to swing clubs as a single male, he is either already well-established in the community or really, really desirable in some other way. Most swing clubs are very single-male hostile, as they would get quickly overrun otherwise.

(caveat: Some men enjoy watching their partners with other men, so swing clubs do work for them... but so do adult theaters.)

Yuk. I share your dislike of too many germs around LW, then there are bugs in our noses just waiting to take us down. The worry re STIs would find me walking away from your man unless he chose a much cleaner place with more aware people. That he tolerates it, why, is what I’d be asking him. Doesn’t he think of his body as a temple?

I'd also ask for more frequent STI testing if he goes monthly to such places. Condoms really don't provide enough protection without the extra testing.

I found this back-and-forth lacking in one key aspect: input from the partner. If the relationship is in fact “really great,” then the partner should be more than happy to reach a compromise for the good of the relationship. We heard lots about her POV, but what about his? Given his partner’s many issues, does he have ideas of his own about how best to reach a compromise? The whole dialogue seemed to revolve around the assumption that he’s gonna do what he wants and she has to deal with it - and that doesn’t sound like a “really great” relationship to me.

I don't even like to use public restrooms out of a fear of germs. If LW is correct about the cleanliness of these establishments, then I scratch them off my bucket list.

biggie @2 you discussed how swing clubs are single-male hostile. The LW said "we both have other play partners," so it's possible that he goes out swinging with someone else.

@2@3 biggie
Thanks, that was even more interesting than the LW exchange!

I have been in the position of LW's partner, not in the sense of sex clubs, but in the sense of engaging in some lewd stuff that my partner was less than thrilled by, but put up with, bless his patience. If the LW's partner can keep it totally silent, okay, but if that's still bugging his partner, that's something he ought to weigh.

In my case, my husband came first and comes first. What I did was fun but it's no contest. The lesson here is, discretion is the better part of valor. If fun comes at the cost of your partner being happy, it's not really fun, is it?

With that said, if they can make it work, that's the ideal. More power to the both of them, and more power to the person who will eventually have to clean up that scuzzy club.

Yo, how about go to two places before sensing a pattern?

Biggie @2: "Men at swing clubs tend to be creepy. They usually have enough money to have one trophy wife, but not enough social skills to have a girlfriend."

You know, I was trying to figure out what was that special creep-feel I got from swing-club dudes, and I think you nailed it. Although sometimes it's also "they're manipulative enough to get a wife with extra-low self-esteem, but not nice enough for standard poly girlfriend."

Lava @ 4 - "That he tolerates it, why, is what I’d be asking him. Doesn’t he think of his body as a temple?"

If I may project a bit (which I think I may, considering that the letter hits quite close to home for me), he doesn't TOLERATE it, he ENJOYS it. I know i do. I find group sex in scuzzy environments quite thrilling. I feel most alive in such situations.

Why? I have no idea. Perhaps because it goes against the norm, and I've always enjoyed that. At any rate, like a kink, it's not a liking I can convince myself that I should avoid indulging in, because it makes me feel great... and I don't want to abandon anything that makes me feel great.

Is that what Dan would do if Terry started straight chasing? Or legal teen chasing? Ignore any creepy feelings?

I think the LW seems worried about bf's respect of consent. He clearly doesn't want another man touching his gf without permission, and maybe not a woman either, but he still gets off in these clubs.. Despite the shady consent and double standards? Does he not care, usually ignore it if he's not involved? Or is it necessary for his needs to be met?

Ignore or talk? I think it may be more respectful to talk than to suspect.

"He actually enjoys the grungy seediness".

Erm, ye-e-e-s, that's what a lot of people like about sex. Like, that's what they really like. I'm not that sympathetic to the LW's tone. He has a 'fetish' for casual group sex. Is 'fetish' quite the right term? No? That's the sort of sex he really likes; that (one of the) sort(s) of sex that really rings his bells. 'PIV is his thing'. The two remarks sound to me equally off....

Nothing and nobody is forcing GGG to go to some unappetizing club where women or men grab her boobs or intrude or violate consent in other ways. She's given her hard 'no' and her partner respects it. But the issue ... is that she finds what he likes morally disgusting. Get over it! We're all a bit like that with sex. We try to get over it, except when consent is breached, of course ... this 'getting over it' is what GGG, the actual GGG, is all about. Isn't this something the LW should know, or theoretically knows, already...? Why is there a problem?

Harriet @ 15 - I second that.

@16. Ricardo. I was actually going to agree with you @13 when I got called away. You say, " I find group sex in scuzzy environments quite thrilling". Yes! Emphatically!

I've never had sex in a normatively heterosexual swingers' club, though. I can believe that there is something that gives pause in the skewed gender and sexuality dynamics the LW describes. If she's saying 'ewww' for herself, I'm not going to gainsay that.... Grouping is absolutely my favorite form of sex; and a massive part of the attraction is seeing people I don't know (or, realistically, only know superficially) enjoy themselves. I wouldn't want to be the person vetting potential participants for this reason. Everyone involved is queer, in some shape or form, but--and this is also personal to me, personal but important--another key feature is that not everyone is male. The scene wouldn't be one-up on a bathhouse is this were so for me.

The LW should try to tease out what her partner likes--the anonymity? watching strangers fuck? fucking out-and-out strangers? the scuzz?--to separate what she can give her blessing to and what she can't ... and that way they should try to work out a compromise.

One main difference I have found between Swingers and BDSM clubs is the use of alcohol. Swing parties/clubs tend to let it flow freely reducing people's inhibitions. Where I have never been to a dungeon or BDSM event that allowed alcohol.

I’ll say one word to you Ricardo @13, germs. Then another, consent. I hear you don’t much mind the germs, I hope you and the other men remember consent.

Lava @ 19 - I'm not obsessed with germs, and I think it's a non-issue that just reflects our societal problems with sex. It's no longer allowed to slut-shame, so we shift the attention to "germs". In truth, many other situations are just as germ-ridden, and most people deal with it without giving it a second thought if they enjoy the activity that brought them there. I am, of course, talking about germs generally, not just STIs.

As for consent, the crowd at an all-male sex-club probably has a very different dynamic because you don't find the same power imbalance, as Harriet points out @ 17. I couldn't care less if someone grabs my butt or pinches my nipples without asking while I'm busy with someone else. I actually think it adds to the fun, even if I would never choose to have a more intimate form of contact with that particular person. I even find it rather hot if someone comes up from behind to penetrate me while I'm topping another guy. I do draw the line at condoms, though, which are mandatory for me. But even then, I've learned to say no graciously so as not to make a scene (which would be detrimental first and foremost to MY enjoyment).

And from what I can tell, everyone at the sex clubs I've been too had the same attitude. Maybe we're all just unrepentent sluts. But I like it that way.

I've been to, not too

An unrepentant slut can still be concerned about germs Ricardo. I’m all for strengthening the immune system with germs, you should check my housekeeping skills.
Just around sex, well, clean towels and surfaces surely isn’t too much to ask. And wash your hands and cover every cut with tea tree oil. There’s superbugs now resistant to any antibiotics.

@20. Ricardo. "I couldn't care less if someone grabs my butt or pinches my nipples without asking while I'm busy with someone else".

No, I couldn't either. My nipples are sensitive, so I'm likely to say, 'erm, no' or suggest another body-part. It's a sex party; there's already the understanding people will be having sex exhibitionistically and perving, voyeur-ing, on other people having sex. The boundary line between this degree of visibility and casual physical contact with people you're not actually making out with is very fine, to me. I would expect to bump up against another fucking or making-out couple, or to be interrupted for a peck or some kind of frot or passing contact in a foursome or more-some context, especially, say, if I and the person I was with were waiting for a good spot in some funky john or just on a couch. Lighting is important to me, if there's an 80s disco vibe. An issue of consent only comes up if someone says 'hey, no' and then the guy decides to push on selfishly.

Why are there so few posts on this hot, urgent, absorbing topic? When 'I've just come off the pill and want it all the time' gets e.g. 177? When 'I've just found out my bridesmaid dated the groom' gets 300+?? SOMETHING IS WRONG IN THE STATE OF AMERICA.

Lava @ 22 - A) My "unrepentent slut" sentence was in relation to the consent issue, not the germs.

B) "I’m all for strengthening the immune system with germs, you should check my housekeeping skills."

Please allow me to use that line for the rest of my life.

Harriet @ 23 - "An issue of consent only comes up if someone says 'hey, no' and then the guy decides to push on selfishly."

Exactly.

"Why are there so few posts on this hot, urgent, absorbing topic? When 'I've just come off the pill and want it all the time' gets e.g. 177? When 'I've just found out my bridesmaid dated the groom' gets 300"

Perhaps because there are a lot more people on the pill than into sex clubs? As for the bridesmaid thing, it just shows how everyone loves trashy tabloidy click-bait, whether we admit it or not.

It looks like it's up to you and me to make the number go up, but I've just moved and my new flat looks like a war zone, so I can't really be of help, as that's definitely a more urgent, absorbing topic for me right now (not a hotter one by any means, though).

The swinger guys I've met in a kink environment always seemed a bit off to me. On the self-important, self-centered side. Why in the world does anyone think it's okay to grab someone's ass without checking? Especially someone you don't even know. That woman doesn't get a pass either; those tits aren't yours? Don't touch 'em without permission.

Good god, this sounds like an awful place.

I think LW shouldn't dismiss her instincts just because they seem sex negative. Maybe it's not sex negativity or prudishness. He took her to a place which was unsafe without warning her about it. Maybe he was unaware, but if he frequents this place he should be aware. He had sex with her there even though she was uncomfortable. Maybe his engaging with this community and risky behavior shouldn't be brushed aside so easily. I'm not saying they have to break up but he could be called out on his passive tolerance for misogyny. It sounds like she didn't open up about her feelings on this subject and just wants to sweep it under the rug.

@26. TheLastComment. Of course she shouldn't dismiss her instincts. She shouldn't feel under any pressure to go back to those creepy swinging joints. She's told her partner she thinks they're misogynistic zoos, right? Crawling with consent-violators? Why do you have the idea she's swept her concerns under the carpet? The issue is whether she can rest easy in her mind giving HIM permission to go under certain conditions.

What she might have just to accept is that these scuzzy clubs with their very casual group sex offer the best possible sexual experience, the most exciting, the most out-of-body (and yet not), to her 'nesting' partner. The kinds of grouping she likes--in a squeaky clean place, only with people they know--are, to her partner, possibly a second-best to the shitty, godawful dives he wants to frequent. She should stop minimising what he really likes by using words like 'fetish'. 'He loves what I hate'--that's something all, or almost all, relationships have to learn to live with. Even if it's only Puccini and cilantro (I hate the first; he hates the second). You deal by conpartmentalising. The issue of consent is a red herring. There's no suggestion that her partner wants to force himself on women, or enjoys being in a context where consent is violated. The issue of elevated STI risks is a red herring. They both have other sex partners; they presumably have chapter-and-verse conversations about protection. It’s inconceivable the guy's swinging-club adventures aren't appropriately sheathed.

The idea of group sex where it is expected that groping and slapping ass etc is an OK way to express interest sounds hot. So does the group sex the LW likes, where everyone already trusts each other to respect consent. The sex club in the letter and most of the descriptions in the comments seem like it could be a hot scene for bi women and straight men, if men get punished for stranger groping but women don't. But LW is a straight woman. I don't think it was nice to invite her, also that she wasn't warned about the looser standards of consent.

He seems to need these sex clubs, not just group sex. She seems to need kink, hygiene, and a lot of respect for consent. The overlap they have found so far are super respectful kinky group sex and this weird power play over orientation and consent where he has sex and she cries. These two seem to be the definition of sexually incompatible, she needs an ethical kinkster and he needs an adventurous bi woman.

@28. Philophile. She's in her mid-40s and this is her 'nesting' relationship. Would she find another one? Does she want to look for another one? I think she'll make the compromises re specific varieties of grouping.

Harriet. People may choose to keep miserable sex lives for a variety of reasons. I don't see much point in romantic commitment without a happy sex life. Ymmv