SSFN, I would show this to your girlfriend and tell her it's your letter. That way you'll have all the support you need to be strong and not spend as much time around this young woman.

Now you really didn't expect a different answer than what Dan gave, did you SSFN?

WTF Dan? Where is the advice to break up with the girlfriend and remove himself from the situation entirely? This guy obviously already doesn't respect the girlfriend at all.

SSFN, this girl's already going to remember you as a creepy fuck and shitty person, once she's a little older than 16 and looks back on this situation through non-teen eyes. Why? Because that's what you are. Flirting with her when she was just a young horny teen with a crush - let alone flirting with her in front of your girlfriend, her aunt: she's gonna see you for what you really were.

Sixteen is very young. You initiate anything more than what you already have, and the fallout's gonna be a lot worse for both of you than just her gagging when she remembers you now.

A better thing to do would be to apologize to the girlfriend for even thinking about this and if it’s OK with her, to the 16-year-old to explain why she didn’t do anything wrong but he did and was considering doing something worse.

She ought to be made to feel no shame about being attracted to an older person but clearly, ‘don’t shit where you eat’ includes family as well as work, and if she ever does get in a relationship with someone literal that more than twice her age, she has to be mindful of the resources and experience that person has at an advantage over her, as well as how, in heterosexual relationships, the risk of pregnancy is entirely one-sided for how it sidetracks life.

There’s no way for the letter writer to be a good guy. It’s too late for that. But some good could come out of it, even if that results in him leaving his girlfriend because of his predatory tendencies he, hopefully, self-arrested at the grooming stage.

She's coming into her sexuality and figuring it out. One common way girls do that is to practice/flirt with men who are safe. Who is safer than the uncle she likes and is comfortable with? She's relying on you to continue to be a safe person. And if she isn't, if she doesn't see you as sexually safe, if she wants you to respond sexually to her despite being her de facto uncle, presumably not in an open relationship, ask yourself where that is coming from. Past abuse? Previous shitty relationship with a similar aged partner? Wherever it's coming from, you don't want to be part of it or add to it. If you can't see her as absolutely untouchable and take pleasure in being nothing more than a positive part of her life, you need to distance yourself. And knock off the private/intimate time. The inherent secrecy is toxic.

LW, are you fucking serious? This girl is your gf’s relative and while she’ll kick you to the curb when she finds out what a sleaze bag you are and never have to see you again, her family could be greatly disrupted if you indulge your ‘crush.’

No.

Teenage girls practice their flirting skills on older, trusted men (often family members, or friends of family). I remember a horny 13 year old daughter of friends batting her eyelashes at my boyfriend (who was mid 20s at the time). It's the responsibility of those men to not see an invitation, to be a safe target. Men can be flattered, but they absolutely shouldn't treat it as an offer.

Ewww. Disgusting. I have a 15 year old daughter, and if a 40 year old man (that’s my age!) did ANYTHING to her (even a year from now), all I would have to do is make a couple of phone calls and that nasty f@ck would never be heard from again. And I am NOT playing;
I don’t give a sh!t with the “age of consent” is. Dan didn’t mention that possible outcome, but if the LW’s girlfriend or her sister/brother or anyone else in the family has any money or connections whatsoever, the LW may find himself severely and permanently injured or dead and I would never be implicated. Seriously dude, there is nothing even remotely ok with you! You had better find some excuses to avoid this girl or, better yet, dump your girlfriend and move on because if this happened in my family, you would be seriously fucked (and NOT in a good way).

I know how angry I am at SSFN. I'm surprised that no one's mentioned how physically unsafe he might be when the relationship is discovered.

Run, SSFN. Run now, give whatever fake explanation to your girlfriend you have to give, and run out of state. It's the right thing to do, but it's also the safest.

@10 CosmicPrincess: "all I would have to do is make a couple of phone calls and that nasty f@ck would never be heard from again... the LW may find himself severely and permanently injured or dead and I would never be implicated".

You're worse than the LW, I think.

FFS. I had a crush on almost all of my (decade-older) sister's boyfriends, from the age of 5 on up to about 17, which is probably why this made me shudder. Fortunately none of those guys was this much of an asshole. I would put money on this having nothing to do with SSFN himself. Consciously or subconsciously, teenage girls tend to model their romantic interests and relationships off of female role models in the "cool, slightly older" range. That immediately puts SSFN on the "ideal boyfriend" pedestal, despite his obvious failings.

SSFN, take your sleazy dick and GTFO. Girlfriend is way better off without you, as is the niece.

It smells like LW already crossed the Rubicon and is writing to Dan for retroactive approval/permission. This just reeks of "already did it" - he already went beyond hand-holding and he's panicking. Yeah, dude, that's your teensy, squashed conscience trying to make you STOP!

@12 Worse than the LW? I think you don’t understand the fierce love a mother can have for her kids, and it’s not just me. There is absolutely nothing I wouldn’t do to protect my kids from a predator. If that makes me a horrible person— well, I don’t care ! But the LW should because there are a lot of parents out there who will do what we have to do, and that’s just a fact.

@12 As CosmicPrincess says, I think lots and lots of parents would disagree with you there. That's not so important in a comment stream, but it might be life-or-death to SSFN.

So disgusting. @6 and @9. Exactly. Young girl coming of age and testing some limits. I did this even as an 18/19 year old not realizing that guys that freaking old would think I was into it. It took a much older married coworker in his fifties pulling me into an office and trying something for me to stop playing around like that. Only then did I understand that my flirting wasn't as harmless as I thought it was.

Even if the young neice was up for it, it would in no way end well. Also his rationalization is laughable. It's legal where he lives? She's tall and has a hot body? She's wise beyond her years? Um no. Just no. Those aren't good reasons to make that much trouble. A little bit of smarts and sarcasm in a young girl don't mean she is a grownup capable of consenting to sex with a sleazebag in his forties. She deserves a nice boy her own age.

Shameful. Dirty. Old. Man.

@15 CosmicPrincess. I'm sure your daughter will be delighted to know that you killed the person with whom she flirted. That will teach her a lesson, but probably not the one you expect.

@10, @15: Nobody has any sympathy for the LW, who is the adult and should not have gone as far as he has, whatever the age of consent number may be where they are. He should get away from this young lady by whatever means necessary, and not because some Internet Tough Girl is ominously threatening his safety or person.

Do you really believe life would be better for her if she someday learns a member of her own family was responsible for having a guy she liked roughed up -- or worse?

What he's already done is going to come out! He should mercy dump this poor woman and move to a new town!

@18: CP isn't saying she'd kill them personally, but that she knows murderers who would do it for her (wow, you do?) and never snitch. of course, she's exactly who the cops would start sweating when the 40 year old creeper turns up dead. which is why such murders rarely happen. you've got to plan murders thoroughly, people.

Good point on the flirting with older men. When I was 19, a friend's younger 14-year-old sister would flirt with me, and I wanted nothing to do with it.

She happened to still interested 20 years later, so there's that, but not sure that's much help to a LW who will be 60+ at that time.

Also, it's worth mentioning that those age of consent laws are really directed more towatds 16 year old girls whose boyfriends just turned 18. Just saying. Only loser trash would be like, yes, awesome, it's legal now so it's time to cruise some high school girls. Gross.

Ok, I’ll be the first to say it: Fake!

This is a fantasy story, not a real one. In the real world, 16-year-old girls don’t come on strong to 40 year-olds. They do it all the time in the May/December and Taboo sections of Literotica, which this seems to be lifted from.

Don't hold hands, you idiot.

@25 precocious young women are intoxicating. but don't do it. you aren't woody allen.

Did anyone check which states this guy could be from? Tremendously surprised at the number that have blanketly open age of consent for 16-year-olds, as well as what some of those states are. Like all of New England, Minnesota, Washington... get your shit together.

Age of consent should be 18 with the usual exception for teens close in age.

@24: teenage girls don't come on to older men? Have you read all the comments? Loads of us have actual experience of this happening to us or people we know. We're not all writing erotic fiction.

My mother married my father when she was 16. Now, stop - I'm not writing to defend that, but to explain why, despite their very long marriage, it was a bad fucking idea then, and a worse idea now. My mother may have stayed married to my father, a serious pain in the ass and a sexist bastard, for nearly sixty years, but as far as I could see most of those years were pretty damn miserable. This was a woman intelligent enough to be anything she wanted. Unfortunately, she was stubborn and decided she wanted to get married, and her parents indulged her. There were family members willing to pay her way through college, or travel abroad, or anything she wanted. She told them to go to hell and instead married and lived a life of unfulfilling motherhood and jobs that just barely touched her potential. Retail, a stint at the IRS late in life; she sold her whole life short. This nearly sixty year marriage? They had nothing in common, little to talk about. I didn't see or hear her blame him, but she sure seemed to resent us kids, unfairly enough.

She got married in the Fifties, so arguably, for that and other reasons it's possible that a richer life or a profession might not have been open to her even if she hadn't married so young. But today? That would not be the case. I know this guy isn't talking marriage at this point but he can wreck her life badly enough that even if it is just a fling, her future is screwed. Leave. Her. Alone. Let her date dudes in or near her age group and grow up normally. Listen to Dan!

Letter writer is an absolute idiot. No, scratch that. This is malice, not ignorance. You're talking about raping a teenager. I'm reminded of Lolita, in which a creepy old dude thinks a teenager is into him and starts raping her.

Do everyone a favor and never see this child again. If that means you have to dump your girlfriend then do it.

Also, even if she looked like "a 20 year old" that's still too young for you, dumbass.

"half your age plus seven" is as young as you can go. Don't look at women under age 27.

It's worth noting that if we increase the age of all three by five years, LW would still be an utter fool, because the younger lady in question would still be his girlfriend's niece. The ick factor would be lower, but it's still highly unlikely any harmless outcome would actually ever happen. (The only difference is that Internet Tough Girl would have even less of an excuse to confuse "The Sopranos" with her own real life.)

Holy fucking SHIT, SSFN! You admit your crush on your girlfriend's 16 year old niece is wrong, and that it doesn't matter if she appears to have a crush on you, too. I know fully well that I'm just echoing Dan and so many commenters, here, but WTF did you think Dan's response would be? Come on, THINK--and not through what's dangling between your legs!

Maybe go watch American Beauty. Cut to the end.

Ok so I know that the notice was entirely different, but point still is he didn't make it out in one piece.

I should have mentioned that while my father wasn't 40 when he met my mother, he was 24 and had already fought in WWII, spent a year recovering from a combat injury, and otherwise had more life experience than her.

@29 & @35 btmom: Our parents have some similarities. Mine married and had children young (at least the first three of four): dad was a U.S. sailor during the Korean War; my mom was a senior in high school when they married. My oldest sister was born the following January. I came much later--almost 8 years after my brother and next closest sibling in age. In their 55 years of marriage, my parents basically had two families, with me a generation apart. By the time I had turned 10, my older sibs had all graduated from high school and were out of the house.

Dude! this is a major shit show in the making. You say you care about the girl...okay....great but even if you don't give a fuck about her........16 is gonna land you in jail. Bottom fuckin' line. Move on ... get blow up doll.

Just one more thing, SSFN, if you're still undecided about taking such shamelessly irresponsible actions with someone young enough to be your daughter: how does the possibility of your serving life in prison for having sex with a minor and fucking up the lives of your most likely soon to be ex-girlfriend, her 16 year old niece, and their relatives sound to you?

Suddenly, a certain long ago letter written to Dan from a guy in his 30s having incest with his mother, and all because they "were very good looking; it's just sex, so why not" springs to my mind. Dan's apt reply was 'Sometimes I think I should boil my mail before reading it.' I believe that would be a good addition to Dan's already spot on response to SSFN.

If LW tells the niece that they have to stop whatever it is they've been doing (do we really believe that he stopped at holding hands for hours?), it's also possible the niece will be so hurt she lashes out in some unpredictable way. She may claim that she had sex with him willingly or that he raped her. He needs to extricate himself from this mess he created any way he can and as quickly as possible. I recommend moving to another city and changing his name.

LW- people are pretty harsh on you as we all identify as ethical perverts in here. I suspect so are you, at least to some degree, and despite the spite. Yes, you have crossed too many lines already, yet you could have also had sex with your gf’s niece by now if you only wanted.
You are flattered, tension keeps building up, and that tinge in the left testicle won’t go away. You try to rationalize, maybe dream of some yes answer.
Please be realistic.

If your relationship with your gf is important to you then follow EP’s @ 1 advice with some of my own modifications. No need to show her your letter, she may freak out. Just tell her in general that her niece seems to flirt with you, that you are triggered, that you don’t want to hurt the relationship you two have, nor hurt the girl and the entire family.
As such you ask gf not to be hostile to the niece, and yet niece cannot stay at your place anymore in order to ensure everyone’s safety. When attending family events gf helps making sure you and niece never stay alone at the same room.

tensor @ 19, 32
As someone who fought relentlessly not to long ago to convince us there’s nothing wrong with a mother-son sexual relationship, which started when the boy was 15 or so, I’m unpleasantly surprised to find you to be the in-house self-defining authority of the ick factor.

LW, if you're really not a pedophile, then stop flirting with your girlfriend's SIXTEEN YEAR OLD niece, stop holding her hand, NEVER do anything alone with her, and go get some counseling to figure out what's causing your midlife crisis!

If you're a pedophile, then break up with your girlfriend today, move to another state, and cease ALL contact with any members of this family. Or your future will be decades in prison. Even if the sixteen year old want to have sex with you, and that's a BIG if, her parents will have you prosecuted for rape! And the little girl will say what her parents want her to say, because they feed and house her!

Do you know how pedophiles are treated in prison by other inmates? Go look it up. Then get away from that family now!

One more way to frame it—your girlfriend is going to have to tell her SISTER: My boyfriend had sex with your DAUGHTER. It will ruin their relationship for life. Can you imagine trusting your kid to one of your siblings, feeling good that she has family to count on, and then finding out that sibling has been going to bed and leaving the kid to canoodle all night on the couch with their disgusting lecherous partner? The fact that the 16 year old is doing this proves that she’s still a child, because she is not anticipating the obvious consequences of her participation: the destruction of her own relationship with her aunt and the brutal end of her mom’s relationship with her sister the aunt. This goes any further, and it won’t be fixed even when the 16 year old is 40. Does that timeline break through your fog of dick-driven idiocy? You can redeem yourself one tiny iota by breaking up with girlfriend and ending all contact with niece—or tell your girlfriend what you’ve been doing and she’ll take care of it for you. Currently you are a shitty shit of a person who I hope to the FSM gets hit by a bus before you do can any more damage to this clueless kid, your clueless and negligent girlfriend, and their family.

You know it's wrong so don't do it even if you want to. It's that simple. If you can't stop yourself then you gotta break up. There's no loophole where you can keep with this shit and not be an asshole.

One more thing, LW, a sixteen year old's brain isn't even completely formed yet. Even if she says she wants to have sex with you now, when she grows up and recognizes the power imbalance in a relationship between the two of you, she could come forward and tell her story, and your career, your future, any marriage and family you have will be destroyed! You will be seen as worse than Roy Moore! Stay away from the kid!

@41: Not only are you wrong about what I believe and wrote, multiple other commenters in that very thread explained exactly how you were wrong about what I wrote. You can argue it with them, since I’m done.

Here, I wasn’t claiming to define any ick factor, especially as I was clearly late to that party. I merely noted that even in the hypothetical situation where the younger lady was fully of age, LW was still wrong. (Advanced practitioners of this newfangled thing called “reading comprehension” may have noticed that the idea that LW would still be wrong under a better scenario implies he’s even more wrong in the actual situation.)

What, am I the only one thinking aunt/niece threesome?

(Ducks)

The best advice was to tell the girlfriend that there's too much temptation with this young woman, innocent as she is in it all, and that you both need to take steps to distance the young woman from you. I agree completely with @40.

There are hundreds of ways this could go wrong, and no ways this could go right - if you don't tamp it down right now and distance yourself from it, way too many people will get hurt, some of them for life.

Plan murders Max @21? Now hold on everybody, nobody is gonna murder anyone.

One of the reasons older men find very young people attractive (I say one of because plenty of the others are obvious) is that the younger person, with no experience of life, seems open and thoughtful and spontaneous and fresh, etc. This is because they've rarely had to test any of their convictions against reality- it's nice to see a clean slate and even nicer (for a certain kind of guy) to project their own story on that plate. The irony here is that you, the older person, will be one in a long line of experiences that take all those innocent, attractive and admittedly naive aspects of the personality of the younger person and smash them against the rocks of reality. Grow the fuck up and let this young girl be a young girl. Evidence of what I'm saying- you think the girl is wise beyond her years. She clearly IS NOT or she wouldn't be holding hands with you on the couch while her aunt is sleeping in the next room. She's as immature and reckless as fuck to be doing that or else so wise beyond her years that she's trying to start some shit and you can't see it. But there's absolutely no interpretation of this situation in which she's being wise and mature. She's acting like a confused teenager. So now that's out of the way- the focus is on you. What is it about the behavior of confused teenagers that you misinterpret for "wise beyond her years"? You say you like to do self-reflection. OK sit with that for a second then. Why are you pretending that this girl is wise and mature? I suspect it's because she says oh-so-deep things that flatter you (partially) and because it's exciting (partially) and because she's tall, hot, young and you are approaching middle age and thinking with your dick (almost entirely). You just want to fuck a young hot thing no matter what, and you don't want to feel guilty about it. So admit that about yourself, and it should be easier for you to decide what to do. Most of us would like to fuck a young hot thing with no consequences. The difference between us and you is that we realize this desire for what it is and don't dupe ourselves with a bunch of bullshit about wisdom beyond years and other justifications. Now, continuing in this line of thought, the only other possibilities for you are: a) you are a fucking blooming idiot or b) you are in fact a manipulative scheming ephebophile who should stay the fuck away from teenagers. The most generous (to you) interpretation is simply that you have the normal human desires of any old man to fuck young hot idealistic naive things, but you also have the self-awareness and self-control to know that you want to do so simply because you are a grown up who has been around for a while. Stop with all this bullshit that it's any more than that. I can't tell if you believe it or not, but it makes you sound pathetic.

And break up with your girlfriend already. You aren't really into her anyway or you wouldn't be starry eyed about someone else, and you don't give a shit about her or you wouldn't be creeping on her niece.

May not be a pedophile, but the tortured rationalizations make him an imbecile.

@CMD while I agree with you in spirit, the problem with the modification of your advice is that it throws the entire situation on the back of the young girl while taking zero responsibility for his own role in creating it. Even if it's a 50/50 thing or even if the young girl initiated, the LW has exacerbated and encouraged the situation. Leaving out his part in it creates a few consequences- the first and most obvious being that the aunt is going to get mad at the girl or at least feel concerned for her. It's not exactly victim blaming since the girl is not a victim (as of yet) but it is a weird sort of way of asking her to be responsible for the actions of a man over twice her age combined with some slut shaming. The young vixen makes me uncomfortable bullshit is a really old trope. But the second and more immediate issue is that the LW's aunt will no doubt confront the teen about it who will no doubt defend herself by pointing out that the LW reciprocated and encouraged, and then the LW is caught in a lie. The LW should solve the problems all around by leaving this family- the aunt AND the niece- completely alone.

@btmom I know you weren't justifying, but there's a universe of difference between a 24 year old with a 16 year old vs a 40 year old with a 16 year old- especially decades ago when both were more common. The problem in your parents' case is more about getting married way too young and how this negatively affected women (but it had its impact on men too and their kids!) rather than having an affair. If your mom as a 16 year old had an affair with a 24 year old that did not lead to marriage, the outcomes may vary between inconsequential to devastating (if she'd gotten pregnant for example) to formative to exciting.

The LW is in a different situation altogether, being a 40 year old man deluding himself about the maturity of the 16 year old teen that has tickled his horny fancy, and all this before we complicate things with her being the niece of his girlfriend.

But yes, let the young be young. Why contribute to their experiences of all the things that make you not like people your own fucking age?

Agreed with @3. Do the entire family a favor and break up with your girlfriend. As many have pointed out, your late night hand-holding and secret sharing sessions with her teenaged niece already constitute an enormous and irreparable violation of trust. There's also no need to do further damage to any familial relationships by admitting the real reason for your needing to leave. Just pick a garden-variety excuse -- it's not you, it's me -- and bounce. You won't even have to feel bad about lying because it IS you who's the problem. Learn from this and move on.

It's worth remembering that we haven't actually heard the niece's actual feelings about all this, only this asshole's perception of them. Further, it sounds like he hasn't either, although they are "both perfectly aware of our feelings." It would not surprise me if a strong enough overture from him didn't kick off the most spectacular of shit shows starting with the niece's rebuff.

I also want to say I am uncomfortable with the inaccurate usage of terms like pedophile, as it makes discussion about such matters difficult. The situation described is icky and unacceptable enough without conflating it with other things.

To close, I am in the camp that reads this letter as indicating this asshole is only sticking around at this point to retain access to the niece, and that should be reason enough to leave on its own.

I have a close friend with a daughter (now over 20, then around age 14) who began to flirt with me. I’m a 40-year-old man. After that moment I made sure not to spend a single moment with her alone, and gave her zero attention beyond bare courtesy. She continues to be flirty to this day. I really don’t like it and I don’t think I like her. Even though I did nothing wrong, distanced myself immediately, I always feel very uncomfortable around her, and feel like she attempted to put me in a dangerous social situation in a way that somehow feels malicious, but was probably just her experimenting with her newfound power. So LW, do what I did. What you should have done. Put up a big fucking wall, and have nothing to do with her.

tensor @ 46
So sorry, let me try again: majority opinion should be applied at your discretion.

EL @ 52
“The young vixen makes me uncomfortable bullshit is a really old trope.”
My apologies if my post didn’t convey that, and I’m afraid it didn’t. I was alluding to a 12-step process in which I presumed the step uncle has already assumed responsibility to some people, regardless if gf is one of them or not, and took action.
It is very possible that EricaP’s approach, showing the letter to the aunt/gf, is better. Still very hard to tell with what we know about their relationship, and extremely likely to vary from case to case. Your point about the aunt confronting her niece should also be a consideration

That said, while I’m generally in favor of disclosure and taking responsibility, some times brutal honesty can be needlessly too brutal and may be saved for a later stage, after some trust has been restored.
Maybe I’m being too forgiving and he should indeed bolt without a reason and leave the family alone.
I also sense here a tendency to accept and forgive female teenage flirting. It is less threatening than forcefully forcing oneself, yet still part of a power play.

tensor @ 46
So sorry, let me try again: majority opinion should be applied at your discretion.

EL @ 52
“The young vixen makes me uncomfortable bullshit is a really old trope.”
My apologies if my post didn’t convey that, and I’m afraid it didn’t. I was alluding to a 12-step process in which I presumed the step uncle has already assumed responsibility to some people, regardless if gf is one of them or not, and took action.
It is very possible that EricaP’s approach, showing the letter to the aunt/gf, is better. Still very hard to tell with what we know about their relationship, and extremely likely to vary from case to case. Your point about the aunt confronting her niece should also be a consideration

That said, while I’m generally in favor of disclosure and taking responsibility, some times brutal honesty can be needlessly too brutal and may be saved for a later stage, after some trust has been restored.
Maybe I’m being too forgiving and he should indeed bolt without a reason and leave the family alone.
I also sense here a tendency to accept and forgive female teenage flirting. It is less threatening than forcefully forcing oneself, yet still part of a power play.

I passionately hate and despise the new "age of consent" laws in my state. I remember I cried when I heard that 16 is now old enough. Don't parents have enough to go through, sheltering, feeding, and raising this tiny, rebellious, naive nonadult, without worrying about the greasy-assed, mid-life crisis club members who've been given the state's 'okay' to creep on them? 16 years old is an age where you're still just learning who YOU really are. If you care anything for this girl (or your girlfriend!), you should realize how you're ruining her life. Stop saying you haven't "made a move" when you're holding her hand for hours like a polite gentleman, when you're actually hoping to get into her pants. You can rationalize it all you want, LW...you're sexually attracted to someone who's not even old enough to drink, smoke, or vote, a DEPENDENT whose parents still probably have to tell her to clean her room, and do her homework, and give her a curfew so creepy clowns like you don't get the time to move in on her. FYI, a crush doesn't guarantee she'd fuck you or date you. Don't pretend you KNOW what goes on in this 16-year old's head or heart.

You're spending this relationship with all of your thoughts on how to transfer from the adult-sized bed to the twin. It's obvious by how you're behaving and what you're asking Dan about. You clearly don't care enough about the girl, OR her aunt, because if you did, you wouldn't be doing what you're doing, and disrupting this family's harmony by making time for her little niece. Break up with this woman for her own good, and for fuck's sake, stay the hell out of the girl's locker room, LW.

This is bad already. Don't make it a catastrophe. I'm in the bow-out-of-the-relationship-for-some-BS-reason-and-remove-yourself-from-the-situation camp.

That said, I don't think he should be murdered, even if he goes full catastrophe.

What's WORST of all, is that her aunt probably thinks they've become closer than ever, and is overjoyed that her niece comes over to spend time with her. She must be thrilled that she's so readily accepting you as a part of the family.

...But what happens when you leave, LW, and the girl withdraws, too? All thanks to your own sick, and selfish behavior. I can only hope that she'll never guess why.

You should absolutely NOT show your girlfriend this letter. You'll be creating an immense distance between them, not to mention opening a void of distrust, blame, guilt, and insecurity between them that has probably never been there before.

Cut them loose.

@CMD showing the letter to the aunt would also address (without excuse) the issue of teen girls flirting. I disagree with Erica's approach btw since I think the LW just should leave. He's already no good for the aunt regardless. But what her approach has in favor of it is precisely that it will raise the aunt's awareness that the teen needs some redirection. No fair or well-intentioned way to do that without the LW also acknowledging his own role in encouraging it. So I agree that brutal honesty might be too much, but the alternative is not a middle ground or revealing some things to some and not to others (which will backfire in all sorts of ways) but instead to just leave the situation altogether. A story in which a teen flirts with an older forbidden man who encourages it is very different from one in which a teen flirts with an older forbidden man who responds with discomfort and tries to stop it and then discloses this to the adults in the teens' life. The way the adult responds would also be different, so no good could come of the LW revealing part and not all of the story. It's all or nothing, and either way, the LW should leave.

Teenage flirting is normal adolescent recklessness. Should be redirected and addressed by responsible adults, just like other reckless teenage behaviors are. Teens play at risks and hazards and get their egos involved and do stupid shit. It's not excusing it to point out that adults in positions of familiarity and authority (like teachers, parents, step uncles, etc) who instead of redirecting and handling this responsibly, act like immature horndogs themselves, are doing something much worse. But even in that context, I'd have more sympathy for the guy if it were not his partner's niece and he wasn't creeping on her in his partner's house while his partner sleeps. Massive betrayal. The aunt obviously thinks her niece is safe and the LW is being an uncle. If she were a precocious 16 year old he'd met in some more neutral environment (but I really can't think of how that would happen) then I'd be a lot more understanding of his point of view.

Anyone who unironically tries to justify shit like this with the phrase "wise beyond their years" needs fucking counseling.

I couldn't even read all of Dan's answer. I'm fucking sick of grown ass men using the she wants it too excuse to fuck a child. She's still a child, young people want to test their sexuality. They should be doing this with people their own age. It is our responsibility as adults to keep those boundaries and understand this is what they are doing. Everytime I see this it makes me so angry. ... Yes dude you are a predator, you're using weak ass excuses to justify sleeping with a child. Yes she's old enough to make that decision legally but that doesn't make what you're doing ok. ... I'm sick of this for me, I'm sick of this behaviour for my female friends, I'm sick of this for my mum, im sick of this for my aunties, I'm sick of this for my 12yr old daughter who have all been hit on by grown fucking men when they were children.... I don't usually do these rants but this gets me more than any other bullshit behaviour hetero men pull. ... Fucking just stop it!

All the older dudes creeping on me when I was a teenager said some form of "You're so mature for your age." It's Creeper 101, LW. This girl is not "wise beyond her years" - that's your dick talking. This girl is sneaking around with her aunt's boyfriend.

I should say hit on and or fucked by grown ass men. ... Gah ... This makes me so mad

Anemone @ 64
OK but the niece who is of legal age for sexual activity bares no responsibility or blame in this situation. Is that what your saying? If it is then YOU are the one that needs to stop it! You can't condemn him but give her a free pass.

I was in a similar situation but without the family ties. And the fact that the second I figured out there was flirty behavior on her side I informed my SO immediately(with a tone of “Shit fuck dammit no super awful bad”). And the fact that I can count the times I have seen the girl on one hand. And resolved to stay far away from teenagers in the future.

I think we hugged once, though. No bueno.

Ok, other than the fact that she was 16 and I was 40, it actually wasn’t that similar at all.

@Rod Iron: If you don't understand how she bares no responsibility in this, you're also a creppy fuck.

And that I spelled it "bares" and not "bears". Jesus.

I am very surprised no one else has noticed -

LW, here’s what you will do. You’re gonna have a romantic dinner with your totally real niece, and use a red glass pickle dish that your GF received as a wedding gift from a previous marriage, which she keeps on a high shelf where nobody can get at it. The cat’s gonna break the red dish on the table and you’ll try to hide it from your GF, but’s she’ll find it and figure out the emotional (if not actual) affair you’re having with her younger, hotter niece. She will decide to send her niece to get a housekeeping job in Albany, and when you and the niece are on the way there you will both decide to toboggan down a snow covered hill, which you had repeatedly promised to do with the niece but never carried out. Midway down the hill you’ll intentionally steer into a tree, hoping to kill both you and the niece, but you both survive. She’ll have a horrible disability and her aunt will have to care for her, and you will become a shattered man who invites random strangers from the post office back to his house in heavy snow storms.

Before you all say I’m clairvoyant; I also know the LW’s name: its Ethan Frome.

to explain my previous comment; the LW is describing almost to a T the plot of Ethan Frome, a novella by Edith Wharton; which makes me suspect it may not be true.

What!! Fooled again.

It’s a letter Corey @ 71, about a fantasy, a book plot or real life.

I guess you’re right Lava- it could be for real. Older man attracted to hot young niece isn’t that uncommon; and he didn’t mention dead ringers for the book (his GF isn’t managing a bunch of chronic, mostly psychosomatic health conditions. The niece “comes over a lot”, doesn’t live with them. LW isn’t married; the aunts just a long term GF.)

Still - there is a very striking resemblance between this letter and the content of that story; he’s struggling to balance his moral duty not to fuck this girl with their hearts desire to do so. It reminds me very much of Ethan Frome, and if t is real it’s not gonna end well.

Hebephiles are drawn to those in early pubescence — roughly 11 to 14. According to Jesse Bering, LW should be protesting that he's not an ephebophile.

goo.gl/5rU4Fn

It reminds me of the first movie Abby Cornish was in, forget the name, and she, the saucy little number, got it on with her mother’s boyfriend. Then she was rescued by a sweet Sam Worthington. Even if this letter is fake Corey, the story lines in real life of inappropriate connections in a domestic situation are many..and this rings true as possibly one of them.

In case it's a real letter:

LW: Your behavior has already been deeply wrong. That you did it anyway means you need professional help to become a person who would not do what you've done. Cut ties with this family and move away to a city where you can get excellent help, and do so in a way that doesn't do anyone any further harm.

p.s. You make me sick.

I can't help but wonder if this letter was a set-up, along the lines of something that sounds vaguely plausible so some right-wing creep (a la Roy Moore) could say something along the lines of "Dan Savage supports pedophilia!"

And both Dan and the commenters have it right: 1. Keep your hands to yourself. 2. If you can't keep your hands to yourself, you need to get away from this kid. For the Christian types out there, I'll refer you to Matthew 18:8-9: "If your hand or your foot causes you to fall into sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life crippled or lame than to have two hands and two feet and be thrown into the eternal fire. And if your eye causes you to stumble, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into the fire of hell." If LW really can't control his attraction to this kid, he needs to consider chemical castration or some other medical response.

EricaP @1: That was sort of my thought: Show your girlfriend this letter, tell her it's from you, she'll dump your sleazy ass, problem solved. Next!

I’m a big Dan fan, but I do wonder sometimes if his promotion of the Campsite Rule does more harm than good. I mean, how many times has some jerk like our LW here said to himself, “I may be a perv but I’m an ethical perv and I promise myself I’ll obey the Campsite Rule and thus Dan Himself says it’s ok for me to jump this kids’ bones.” Of course, in this particular case, there’s no way in holy hell this thing could ever end in a way which is not devastating for the niece. Thus the Campsite Rule, properly understood, is saying “don’t even fucking think about it!” But LW instead sees the Campsite Rule as a Get Out of Shame Free pass, and I’ve got to wonder, how many other people have done the same? I suppose, if you are creep, you will always find a way to justify your creepiness to yourself, with or without Dan, but still.

Please, please, please let this letter be fake.

Ask yourself: Do I want to be like Dane Cook?

Ew.

Gross. Not as gross as Trump’s latest tweets, but still gross.

It’s gross because he describes her as having wisdom beyond her years. No. We now know, from hard science, that the part of the brain which establishes the ability to act with good judgment and not impulsively is the last part of the brain and adult functioning to develop and continues to age 23 or so. It’s science. Regardless of her other abilities to impress LW with humor, moderately sophisticated observations or knowledge of politics or pop culture, or impressive vocabulary, she is organically unable to reliably make responsible decisions snd is susceptible to undue influence. LW’s rationalization that she is wise beyond her years is gross.

It’s also gross because she is his girlfriend’s niece.

LW gets props for understanding that acting on this mutual crush would be his moral failure and would be ruinous for the family. His mistake is in not recognizing that he has already acted on it. The closeness. The shared glances. And most of all the secret handholding. He has already moral failed in doing all these things, in failing to do appropriately when first realizing her crush and overt flirtation. He hasn’t ruined his girlftiend’s and neice’s family yet, but it is coming. The only potential way to avoid it that I can see is to break up with the girlfriend snd gave nothing further to do with either of them. Even then, things could go very badly.

Perhaps he has already figured this out and wrote this letter as insurance to protect himself.

@71-I think it is more likely to be Roy Moore.

LW, about 25 years ago I was the GF's 17-year-old nephew. I slept with her BF (He was 40 years old.) and everything Dan is telling you is true. We got caught. He and my aunt broke up. There were family members who blamed me. To be clear, I sucked his dick and let him f*ck me because I was gay. I did not become gay because I sucked his dick and let him f*ck me, but I still have family members who insist that I'd be heterosexual today if it weren't for this affair. (Obviously they're wrong but combatting this line of thinking gets exhausting.)

So, 25 years later and the whole thing still gets brought up from time to time. In case you're wondering, it's not fun to have your life dissected in this way over Thanksgiving dinner or behind your back.

Whenever I dated someone and this topic came up, it was met with sympathy, revulsion, or titillating excitement in which the person wanted me to recount every lurid detail. It is not fun, sexy, or pleasant to be on the receiving end of those emotions.

I'm now married to a wonderful man and we have two young adopted children. But, I know one day this part of my past will come up (Families never successfully keep secrets.) and I'll have to discuss it, explaining how and why I could have made such a foolish decision.

The entire experience, which seemed so right at the time, has left me with an albatross that I wear around my neck 25 years later.

I can't tell you what happened to him because I have no earthly idea. After he and my aunt broke up, I lost contact with him. Maybe his life went on fine and dandy, I don't know. However, while my life hasn't been wrecked, I've never been allowed to forget this poor decision on my part. Having your poor decisions periodically replayed for you by your family is really not a lot of fun.

I encourage you to abandon this fantasy in your head that everything will somehow be ok and work out. It won't.

Eric, Rod, etc, re: older people with younger lovers:

The reality is that the excitement of slowly working your way up into sexual contact with others, (oh wow, my hand touched his in the popcorn box) is something we should be going through with other teenagers. And I do think there can be healthy ways for a younger person to have sexual contact with an older one, but I think in our society a few things should be clear. One is that the younger should obviously be out of high school and two is that the older should obviously not be in a position of family/school/work/church authority. So already all this stuff with the LW is fucked up.

But the third reasons is that a relationship in which a more experienced older person is fucking a younger inexperienced person should include a lot of communication about what you are doing and what your feelings are- including birth control decisions and also the fact that no, you probably aren't really wise beyond your years and totally in love. Don't fill a teenagers head with bullshit about how wise they are and how you, as a 40 year old, feel love for them specifically as an equal. That is a bunch of bullshit. You might genuinely enjoy the person's company- youthful energy is refreshing at times and their outlooks can be exciting, introducing the older person to new things as well. But at the core of it is the older person really excited to be fucking this hot sexy young body and the younger person being a little bit starry eyed about all the things that adulthood offers and all the new experiences (sexual and otherwise) that the older person can initiate. You can take a younger person to all sorts of normal adult experiences that they may never have had before (concerts, plays, different meals, weekends out of town, formal gatherings, whatever it might be) and they will be fresh and new and exciting to them. So long as you don't start to actually believe that you are as special and interesting as you like to feel like you are (if someone your own age wouldn't respond the same way, you probably aren't) and as long as you don't start to believe that you and this younger person are deeply truly in a love that will last for centuries (so many young women give up everything for old men, but luckily I think this is far less common) then you're cool. Same thing, sexually.

But sitting on the couch giggling and horny over getting to hold a young girl's hand while aunt is in the next room is terrible for everyone involved- no one is being self-aware here, not the teenager who is exploring her sexuality, not the old man who's acting like a teenager but pretending it's the teenager who's acting like and adult, and not the aunt who is kept in the dark about her partner's betrayal. It's a bunch of dangerous bullshit.

@Corey,

It's possible it's not real. But there are loads of stories of older men with younger women- both in real life and fiction- in which the younger partner either initiates or appears to from the pov of the horny dude. And the initial contact is almost always something that is seemingly innocent but creepy, like Humbert bouncing Lolita on his legs. Holding hands on the couch is part of this. This is the part that really strikes up the creep factor. If this girl were 30, let's say, do you think this LW would think it's so hot that she sometimes holds his hand when no one else is around? This guy is so horny for this girl that the hand holding is turning his brains to mush. This appears in literature because it happens in real life, not the other way around.

I'm sure most women here have stories of being a teenager and having men find what should be innocent contact to be super arousing and they suddenly become really interested- goofy, talk different. It's a weird thing to notice about the world as you come of age as a girl. All these grown men who seem so in-control and distant otherwise, suddenly can't really talk normally and get stupid smiles on their face and really start asking you questions if they get to rub your back or give you a long hug. I was not a girl who was interested in older men, so I never pursued that sort of thing and it never escalated beyond that, but it is part of growing up to learn how to deal with this. And it is absolutely different than when two adults are interested in each other. By the time I was in college even, obviously there are still super horny guys who might try to come on to you, but it's rarely that combination of innocent touch and thirsty man. It's like guys that get into pushing the envelop with teenage girls really feel some glee about each little step along the way. Today I touched her hand and she liked it. Today we sat close on the couch and she liked it. Today she leaned forward and wanted to kiss me. It's a weird creepy glee that they'd never for one moment put up with from another adult. Maybe it makes them feel like kids again? The reason this is in loads of novels is because it's in loads of real life. And yes, it's frequently considered as a teenager seducing an older helpless man b/c that's how it seems from the point of view of both the men themselves (ah, shucks bullshit) and the more responsible women / men who try to redirect or reprimand the girl.

Oh btw, I'm not among those pretending that the teenage girl plays no role in this as well. Obviously noticing the way you can get grown ass men to respond to you can be exhilirating. Obviously also teen girls are also horny and looking to explore their sexuality. I'm saying that for them, this is relatively normal though of course they need trusted adult guidance to help them learn to deal with it and be safe. It's the old men who are being weird. Why does a 40 year old get off sitting around holding someone's hand? And if he wants to have some ethical campfire initiate-the-young experience, why is he messing with a high school kid in his partner's care in his partner's house? Let's not mix these things up.

This is the problem with the campsite rule. It sounds great to say age disparity relationships are fine as long as the younger is okay at the end of it, but the older likely sees it as a loophole with how-was-I-to-know-it-would-all-blow-to-hell as the end excuse. I prefer a blanket rule that says don't touch anyone under 18 unless you're within a year of the same age. (Don't touch anyone in their 20s unless you're within 5 years of the same age, etc.)

Anyway, for SSFN-- You say she's so mature, funny, sarcastic, intelligent and wise? Here's an idea: Buy a ring and ask for her hand in marriage. Tell her everything you can offer her in terms of fidelity and lifelong support (which should include sending her to college and footing the bill). Do it publicly. If she refuses you, nobly step aside and remove yourself from her life.

(Don't touch anyone in their 20s unless you're within 5 years of the same age, etc.)

Really? This seems ridiculous. So a 25 year old can't date a 31 year old?

Also when I was in college and in my early 20s I sometimes had experiences with older men- in their 30s. Why wouldn't I? We were all adults. They were not in positions of authority over me. Sometimes I got to enjoy things with them that I could not with people my own age- for example, they usually had houses/flats without room mates. They could afford going out to nice meals. They sometimes had work/life experience that my peers did not have so it was interesting to discuss with them about my own options, get perspectives on choices I was making that were different than I got from peers and family/professors.

I don't think it's a good idea to force people to exclusively have relationships with their peers, and I can hold this position with ZERO conflict to my position that likewise high schoolers are off limits, children of our partners (and other young people over whom we have authority) are off limits, creeping on someone secretly while their guardians sleep in the next room is off limits, and any old fart getting off on holding hands with a teen and fantasizing that it's love is up to no good.

@90 Fichu, what a terrible suggestion; it wouldn't be good for anyone.

SFFN, stay away from anyone under 27 ("half your age plus seven")!

I had this happen to me when I was 18 and my GF's younger sister was the tease. I never encouraged it, never even went with any "hand-holding" but also never told my GF (I thought it might ruin their friendship) Little sister moved on to someone else, and I stayed away, sighed a deep sigh of relief, and everyone's life went on. I have never been known for being "non-impulsive" but have always thanked the universe for not testing me too hard on this occasion.

This letter triggers me so much because it sounds so familiar. I was struck by puberty very suddenly at age 12 and developed a very curvy figure very quickly. Many grown, adult men would say things like "oh you're so MATURE for your age" while ogling my tits I can't even tell you. Adults including middle age friends-of-the-family types who would commence to creep the moment their wives' backs were turned. Quite a few of them also said they "noticed I was looking" or flirting with them when I had not, in fact been doing anything of the sort. Those experiences had a huge impact on the way I related with men, especially in my twenties. I had a really hard time believing that guys were interested in me as a person despite what came out of their mouths, found guys just really hard to trust in general and felt that most guys' behavior was ultimately just ruled by their dicks. In no way could this be a positive thing for the niece and the fact that LW can twist Dan's "Campsite Rule" to fit the scenario in his head is proof that he is pretty far removed from reality.

LW, leave this girl alone. And leave her family alone. And get some counseling if you care at all about not being a huge, delusional piece of shit.

In an attempt to salvage a real conversation here:

Why do we find older man younger women relationships so troubling, despite the fact that an overwhelming percentage of relationships have an older make and younger female (even when the gap is relatively small)? It's a foundation of human romantic relationships in essentially all times and all societies in human history (with a handful of small outliers). It seems to be as good a case as any to say it's "hard-wired" into is. Evo Psych offers a simple, relatable theory as to why this is so common that had been fundamentally debunked as best I know.

Most other modern societies regard this as less distasteful than Americans do. Only the West seems to consider this unpalatable, and even along western societies, only Americans and Canadians consider this disgusting (in France, this would be an endearing rom-com). Is it just Puritania 101? Should we, uh, change?

Fundamental question: is the older man relationship inherently more damaging than relationships with similar aged people? Most women I know have had experiences with significantly older men, and experiences with shitty partners. But I don't necessarily think that those relationships are one and the same. What's the worst this guy is going to do with her? Use her for sex, get her hopes up, then dump her? Get get pregnant? A high school or college boy can do that (and do with high regularity).

Maybe we're all wrong?

He thinks she's wise behind her years because they have the same maturity. But this girl isn't wise beyond her years. He's unwise behind his own.

*beyond

Ducking phone

@96 Precisely. Well said.

The letter writer needs to control the damage they are causing: Leave now. Don't divulge why if you care at all about that girl.

@95 When there are aspects of the story that change it's complexion and meaning as much as the custodial/familial relationship in this one, it's difficult to have a "real conversation" tangential to that.

If instead of the niece, this story was about a great grandmother, who was now at least as dependent on family as a sixteen year old, I suspect there would still be a lot of the same condemnation.

That said, some of the replies do seem to be tinged with the old idea that a girl's "virtue" belongs to the family.

As for dating outside of your age group, I think that adults can and should do as they please and that years mean a lot less when you've had more of them. Still, at least in America, it does seem like significantly older people who tend to aim for the young and inexperienced, are damaged and damaging, and more experienced people avoid their shit.

I'm not going to shame you. There's no point in it.

Crushes are powerful. Intimacy is powerful. This is giving you a feeling of being close which is hard to resist, but you have to end things cleanly.

Do you think you'd be able to have two separate conversations with the girlfriend and the niece, ending this? I feel the niece deserves an explanation and respectful closure. She needs to know this is not her fault.

Sporty, I don't think that is the problem, as I said in my post. It's not an issue of older men and younger women being distasteful. That conversation is just always brought to divert from the specifics at hand. What is distasteful about this particular situation (and ones like it) is the fact that the person is still high school age and the older man is dating her aunt and that it's taking place in her own home while the aunt is away, and the creepy blushing virgin delusional bullshit about real connections and the thrill of hand holding.

If this were a 19 year old young woman flirting with a 40 year old man who was not dating the girl's guardian and who was not sneaking away to hold hands while those guardians slept in the next room, then the responses would be very different.

As to particularly why there might still be some taboo about older men dating much younger women, I agree there is still disapproval but it's of a totally different nature, and I think Americans are incorrect about the extent to which this is approved in other cultures. Maybe 50 years ago.

If we want to play at thought experiments, let's remove the nastier creep factor aspects and say we are talking about a 21 year old in a relationship with a single man in his early 40s who is not in a position of authority over the younger person. Perhaps they met at a neutral place like a club - whatever.

Well two things about this. In the first place, it's incorrect to pretend there is not likewise a taboo if we flip the gender. As if no one bats an eye at 40 year old women with 21 year old lovers?

And second, I think in regards to the older man and younger woman, it's because historically it has taken opportunities away from women. For most of history in most cultures, women are married very young to older men, and that determines the direction that their lives take from then out. There's a double standard in which men get to have a youth to explore many things (personal and professional) and then when they are ready to settle down, they marry some young woman who does not get the same opportunity and then she has his children as he's in middle age and then she care for him as he's old and then she's a grandma.

I agree also that in societies with modern medicine, this no longer has to be the case, and there are plenty of ways that younger women and older men can have ethical relationships. I personally defend the spirit of the campfire rule. But I think it's obvious that we still have some lingering suspicions around the consequences- young women do still divert their own life paths for men and then regret it later, middle aged men do still seek young wives to bear them children, etc. It doesn't have to be that way, but don't go from generalizations to specifics and pretend you are talking about the same thing. You are correct than an older-younger relationship is not the same as a damaging one, even if there is overlap at times. But in this particular case, the worst he can do to her is destroy her relationship with her family, divert her from any path in which she can set off on her own youth (college, other lovers), fill her head with bullshit about love and wisdom that he should know better, and also base her relationship upon massive betrayals. And the fact that a reckless teenager could get knocked up by another reckless teenager has nothing whatsoever to do with the reality that it's worse when a 40 year old man does it. Does this man want children? We don't know, but plenty of middle aged men do decide that they'd like to settle down and they find young women to do it. How long will he wait? How much would his presence in her life shape the path that she takes?

The way to have ethical old-young relationships is for each person to have some awareness of what is going on, and you can't have that sort of agency when you are a 16 year old. The elder should know better than to think sneaking off and holding hands is wise and mature. If he were also a kid, we could call them both dumbasses and find something endearing and innocent in it. But he's a grown ass man playing a teenage game- he's either a fool or a creep.