Comments

1

The good news is that keeping anti-discrimination law is polling like 70-30 in favor. But let's pile on and go for 80-20 or 90-10. I grew up in MA, I have trans friends there, and I would love to see the concern bigots stuffed hard into the margins.

2

Not sure, if using Buck Angel is such a clever idea - he is damn hot! I wouldn't mind at all if he ends up in my bathroom... ;-) Sadly enough, the overwhelming majority of kids get abused by seemingly regular folks they actually know well and used to trust and not the 'evil stranger' lurking apparently now in women's bathrooms. Please go and vote against this hateful bs!

3

Trans guy here, echoing permission to use us this way. While it's true that I like to think of myself as non-evil, I'm actually sort of ok with being a bit scary around the edges.

The fact is that anti trans laws typically target trans women and only catch us in the cross fire (see Julia Sereno). We can typically work around the problem, and women regularly can't. But we're guys -- a lot of us kinda want to ride in, muscules glistening, face streaked with dirt and sweat, and save the day, even if it's a bit too steriotypical for us to... fully admit... that we wouldn't mind making this one all about us. You know, just having to show off our manly physiques and facial hair in order to get the job done.

4

Without that permission, the idea doesn't sit well with me. If a trans person wants to use /their own image/, as with those posted tweets, I think it's great. But I don't think that any pic of some random trans person is fair game to be used this way, well known activist or not. Glad Buck chimed in with his permission, as well as 3 above, but IMO that permission only applies to those individuals, not all trans people.

5

Nice one Buck Angel and beautifully said.

6

Doubt that law enforcement wants to get into the show-me-your-DNA-papers business.

I once backed the hell out of a public women's restroom at the beach because a straight white couple was just casually hangling out in there smoking cigarettes as the sun was setting.

Informed a local cop passing by, who was nonplussed, until I pointed out, that maybe he should just check it out...

7

For the record, I'd feel quite threatened by the presence of trans women (or even cis women) in the men's room, but of course I'm only gay, and therefore don't count for Mr Savage.

8

I'm just not sure about this approach. I've worried that it could be well intentioned but likely to backfire. Sort of like the attempts to defend abortion rights with arguments about viability.

That's fine for Buck Angel, but loads of trans people do not pass. The ones who do pass (like Buck or that transwoman that took the pic with Greg Abbot) are not the ones who will be harmed or targeted if bathroom discrimination becomes a thing. The people who will be harassed and targeted are going to be trans people who do not pass as well as androgynous and gender nonconforming people (for example, that cis woman who was followed into a bathroom by a "concerned citizen" who thought she was a man). So while I think it's great for guys who pass like Buck to show solidarity here and point out the absurdity of the situation, it can easily backfire if you want to start this conversation. How's it going to look when the right plays the same game- starts circulating pictures of non passing trans women and asking if you want them in the bathroom also. That's going to play directly to their base.

Generally then I think it's a better idea to make an argument in terms of human rights and anti discrimination for trans people generally that does not focus on people who pass. For example, imagine if civil rights advocates had tried to highlight the absurdity of separate water fountains by showing a picture of a white-passing black person drinking from the "colored only" fountain.

A transman that looks like Buck Angel- who appears traditionally masculine in every way - will be able to use the men's restroom without anyone questioning him. It's the non passing trans people as well as gender nonconforming people who are the greatest targets of abuse and violence- and this has a class/race element as well as poorer people are also less likely to access transition health care. In the long run, it's the rigid gender dichotomy that we must confront, so I always wonder about the wisdom of making passing trans people who embody traditional masculinity or femininity the focus.

Also the conservative fear mongering argument is not usually phrased in terms of trans people being violent (since the stats won't support it) but rather about the fear that cis men might dress like women and enter these facilities. So pointing out that actual transmen would look ridiculous in a woman's restroom will do nothing towards addressing those concerns. Better to just point out that there is nothing stopping them from doing that now as it is.

On the flip side, I think it's good for people to learn that there are trans people among them even though they don't know it.

9

There really needs to be more all-gender restrooms in addition to those with urinals. The only reason I say that urinals should remain is for areas with considerable restroom traffic, like arenas or schools, where large volumes of people will be wanting to use them at the same time; it helps to move things along.

I'm a cis woman. After some recent experience with using all-gender restrooms, I can say that it is not a big deal to see a guy leaving as I'm entering, entering as I'm leaving, or washing my hands alongside one.

10

I think a picture of Buck with some of his words superimposed on the picture would be very striking, EmmaLiz @8. It would appeal to peopleā€™s humanity. Acceptance is the first step.
Yes nighscrawl @9, we have unisex toilets at some of our beaches and some parks /thatā€™s a funny one/ just cubicles next to each other.

11

Go, Buck Angel!
@9 nightscrawl and @10 LavaGirl: Hear, hear!

12

This isn't even an issue in places like Europe, where many bathrooms are unisex.

13

@12 not so many bathroom are unisex but often in bars you have just one bathroom... Anyway, a lot of women just use the men toilet if there is an endless queue in front of the other door

14

Venn @7: You would fear that the woman would rape or assault you? That's the "threat" trans women -- any women -- face in men's bathrooms, far more than cis women face such a threat from trans women in women's bathrooms, as transphobes argue. If you're talking about the "threat" of embarrassment, it's not really the appropriate analogy.

EmmaLiz @8: I hear you, but the transphobes are not big on either compassion or logic. Pointing out the absurdity of their argument may be the best bet.

Agree both that in Europe there are many single-stall unisex bathrooms, and I've seen more multiple-stall unisex bathrooms. Over here the walls of the stalls go floor to ceiling, so peeping isn't an issue. However, there is beginning to be some backlash. A nightclub I frequent that draws a variety of genders including many NB and trans folks was recently told by the local council that they had to make their bathrooms single-sex -- and trans people could use the single-stall disabled toilet! However, I suspect that this was less transphobia and more tackling the practice of group drug-taking in the stalls.

I don't really like to see men using urinals, but yes, as a cis woman I've occasionally used the men's room if the queues were too long in the women's. Sorry, Venn.

15

@9 I'm also a cis woman, and I completely agree. Most people go into a bathroom, do their business, and leave. I have never seen another person's genitals when I was in a public bathroom. (I know some places have issues with drug use and hookups in public restrooms, but that's a completely different issue.)

16

@14 BiDanFan
"EmmaLiz @8: I hear you, "

Ditto; @8 was (as always, EL) thoughtful and interesting!

"but the transphobes are not big on either compassion or logic. Pointing out the absurdity of their argument may be the best bet."

Agreed. These are people driven by hatred/fear/etc., not reason. Sometimes one needs to engage in a political contest by meeting the opposition where they are.

17

I don't know. The politicians and hate groups and religious conservatives making this an issue are driven by bigotry, etc. But their fear mongering does resonate with people who are not bigots and just unfamiliar with change. I'm not in a liberal bubble (as some of you discussed earlier) which might be why I hear about it. I don't think these campaigns do anything to address the fear that men - not trans people- will claim the right to enter women's spaces on the grounds that they are trans. If you actually talk to people, this is what they say. Not transphobic stuff. I think it's better to address what people say rather than shoo it away. For one thing, it's going to be nonpassing trans women who are going to bear the brunt of it (already are) so we ought to address the issue head on and not pretend that there aren't trans women who do, in fact, look like men. I think there really isn't any way to do that without attacking the gender binary. All I've managed otherwise is pointing out that men could do this now, and then the stats that show that transwomen are not more violent and also yes personal stories of how it doesn't matter what someone in a stall next do you is doing, etc.

18

Just get rid of bathrooms like we did in San Francisco. Worked great!

19

BTW I'm realizing I'm arguing as if this is an either/or situation- it's the first time I've really thought about the effectiveness of this strategy, and these are the holes I see. That doesn't mean it's not an effective strategy also. I see actually I should have approached it "yes this and..." not an either/or. Or maybe I'm way off mark. Just see the disconnect between what the opposition says and how we respond- but it could just be that like with all bigotry, at the end it doesn't matter what they say - you can't beat them at their own game since their game is bigoted. But if that's the case, then what's the point of any strategy?

20

(That was meant to be sarcastic, not sure it came off.)

But really, gendered bathrooms are dumb. There should be urinals outside, all over the place, to stop dipshit drunk guys from peeing on everything, and all other bathrooms should be divided between considerate people and people who leave pee/poop on the seat and toilet paper on the floor.

21

lol Beccoid, hilarious.

Also made me think out of the box. OK here's an idea I just pulled out of my ass.

In many countries around the world (and in fancy places in the US where people pay to feel special), there are bathroom attendants. They stand around the place and clean up after you and you can tip them (in some places you even have to pay to enter).

Now I don't think there is anyone worried about being sexually assaulted in a Starbucks bathroom or somehting- if it's a small place, it doesn't make any fucking sense even to have a gender division since there aren't any stalls in the first place. Just one toilet. And workplaces and restaurants also seem to mostly self-regulate as the people in the building in the first place are limited. Seriously I wonder if the people afraid of going to the bathroom ever really get out of the house.

But in busy crowded places (malls, stadiums, airports) why not start hiring bathroom attendants? Would increase employment, and those are the places where the bathrooms need more attention to stay clean anyway. And there be someone there keeping an eye on stuff who could quickly notify management or security if some weirdo comes in with lollipops for peeing children.

Of course this could be used by the bigots to increase our security state. Next thing you know, they are bathroom cops doing junk inspections before you can enter. Then we shut down the freeways and demand that the bathroom cops become certified in hair waxing removal and every time I go to a ball game I can get my pubes taken care of.

Seriously though, I do think a better approach is to talk about how enforcement of these bigoted rules leads to privacy encroachments- there are stories now of self-appointed bathroom police following women with short hair and traditionally male clothing into the bathroom to make sure they belong there- there's a video of one in which the guy yells at the woman that she shouldn't dress like a man.

What we're seeing is people freaking the fuck out because a rigid gender binary is being torn down, and I think somehow our approach should be to take on this argument, head on.

22

EmmaLiz
Heck yes I agree (@19) "yes this and..." (@21) "take on...people freaking the fuck out because a rigid gender binary is being torn down".

But please let's not suggest "bathroom attendants", because that reminds me of voter suppression in that each remedy are solving non-existent problems. (Or correct me if I'm wrong, but AFAIK sexual predators don't use bathrooms, and almost no one [except Anne Coulter] votes illegally.)

23

p.s. I just hate when we jump for no reason other than that they ask.

24

Curious, the problem it would help solve are: a) dirty bathrooms in crowded public places, b) high unemployment for non skilled workers, c) alleviating people's fear of change, d) making it less likely that self-appointed enforcers will confront non-passing trans people and androgynous people in the bathroom - which is a thing that happens.

25

Also voter suppression is a remedy designed to solve a problem. The problem it solves is that when larger numbers of people vote, Democrats tend to win.

26

No no no, I hate bathroom attendants. I do not need to be handed a paper towel and I do not want to give you money for doing so!

27

Emma @17/@19: I appreciate your comments. I agree that it shouldn't be either/or -- we shouldn't give up on the idea of appealing to logic or compassion, we just need to have a realistic idea about how effective it will be, and take other tactics as well. Anything we can think of, really! It's a good point that it's not trans men and women who pass that are the issue, because they literally do pass unnoticed and therefore no one makes a fuss. It is the more masculine trans women who make pearl-clutchers go "OMG there's a MAN in here!!" And this has knock-on effects, I read at last one story about a butch cis woman who was told to get out of the ladies' bathroom. Including one here in the UK. Just shaking my head here, really.

28

TBH, I'm mostly riffing about bathroom attendants, playing around - I don't really mean that I expect to receive a free wax in a stadium bathroom.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that repeatedly focusing on trans people who conform to existing gender stereotypes does little to combat the gender binary (which is oppressive and the source of the panic) and even less to defend the people who are most likely to be victims- people who do not conform to gender stereotypes, especially if they are also members of other vulnerable groups (poor, nonwhite). I don't think its any accident that most trans people who are killed are poor black trans women with inadequate access to healthcare (meaning they are less likely to pass).

This isn't my movement of course, but there is crossover since it's the same rigid gender binary that oppresses cis women, so perhaps I'm trying to co-opt a movement and I should step back, but to me it seems wrong-headed to combat bigotry against trans people by pointing out that many of them conform to existing gender stereotypes. It's what happens to a lot of "rights" movements- the good immigrant vs the bad immigrant, the gay man who doesn't "act gay", Hilary or Thatcher celebrated for being just as bloodthirsty as their male imperialist counterpart, black people with middle class manners vs the ghetto stereotype, etc. It's good to teach people that there are trans people among them that pass. But we shouldn't accept Buck Angel as a man just because he conforms to traditional stereotypes of masculinity. It seems weird to me that this campaign focuses on that- how manly he looks and how silly it is to have a manly man in a woman's restroom. I'm not sure who this helps in the long run.

29

In the ā€œyes, this andā€¦ā€ category, I just realized how stupid I am. Let me blame sleep deprivation and the boredom of caregiving, but the obvious just occurred to me. Itā€™s a very good counterpoint to the conservative fear of ā€œmen in wigsā€ entering the womanā€™s restroom looking for prey. Forcing men like Buck to use womenā€™s restrooms would give cover to any cis man who wanted to enter for nefarious reasons more easily since they wouldnā€™t even need to don the wig. I know this whole scenario is dubious in the first place, but it really is a good counter argument, I just took a million years to see it.

30

@8

"What we're seeing is people freaking the fuck out because a rigid gender binary is being torn down, and I think somehow our approach should be to take on this argument, head on."

This is something that I have a very hard time with as a supporter of trans rights. Not having a rigid gender binary introduces a huge amount of ambiguity that makes even me extremely uncomfortable.

For example(and this is something I've heard was actually an issue a few years ago), what if a lesbian doesn't want to date a trans woman because the transwoman has a penis and the lesbian absolutely won't go near anyone with a penis ever?

What about anyone else who requires a certain sex organ for there to be sex? Or transgender athletes who still get an advantage from their gender at birth(again, this is a discussion that is currently happening)?

That's just off the top of my head, I'm sure that if I put some actual thought into it I could think of many more challenges that not having a gender binary(or a severely weakened one) would have and I'm actually pretty progressive when it comes to trans rights(totally ok with not having to use the restroom of birth, covering transition via insurance, etc).

I could only imagine what the argument would be like with someone who is more transphobic than I am so I'd say we might want to take that argument on around half past never.

31

No one has to date anyone they don't want to date for any personal reasons whatsoever with no requirement for explanation. Removing a gender binary would emphasize this point rather than distract from it. The reason some people say lesbians are supposed to date trans women is because lesbians are attracted to women and trans women are women. This is supportive of the gender binary.

As to sports, again it is the rigid gender binary that forces us to segregate athletes by gender rather than by competitive categories. I don't know what sports competition would look like that was not gendered. I suspect it would look more like boxing competitions that have leagues that separate people by their size/strength so that you don't see giant men pummeling smaller men. This would sometimes include intra-sex contact and sometimes not. I don't think this would be relevant to all sports.

The fact that there are challenges to what a world would look like without a gender binary is not an argument against it. There are challenges to a world with a rigid gender binary as well. Those challenges include the oppression of all people who do not conform to gender stereotypes and (usually) the insistence that women remain a second class. We often feel more comfortable with known equalities rather than unknown, especially if we are not currently suffering from them. Change is scary.

32

known inequalities

33

@31 You are missing my point. I'm saying that this isn't a useful argument because you are assuming people are way, way further along than they are. It would be like me arguing for universal basic income. As a country we are nowhere near there yet.

In other words, if you are running into opposition from someone who has personally been hurt by the gender binary and is very much pro trans(that would be me), it's basically a non-starter for the vast majority of people.

I brought up those two issues as particularly thorny problems that don't have easy or satisfying answers and are a direct side effect of the progress that has been made in lessening the gender binary.

34

@21, Emma, I donā€™t see taking people on with any sort of aggression is helpful.. it hasnā€™t helped in dealing with issues between cis and trans women.
And as you are not a trans woman, taking it head on doesnā€™t put you at risk.
Education and compassion/ empathy is what is needed because people donā€™t understand.
Personally I see changes happening because peopleā€™s children know gay, trans and bi people.

35

As Buck says, itā€™s about ā€˜humans making a space for ourselves.ā€™
Seriously, having to vote about it and doing scare mongering adds is gross. Making such a big deal about going to the bloody toilet. For people doing this, itā€™s sadism.. and one doesnā€™t want to join them using fear to communicate.

36

As someone who goes en femme on occasion it is my impression that in Savageville area things actually got better after the bathroom policing initiatives started raising their stinky heads few years ago. There is more awareness and accommodation, and many local businesses who used to have two separate women/men restrooms now carry the sign ā€œall gendersā€ on both.
Did anyone experience that here or elsewhere?

37

As far as some trans men not looking conventionally masculine enough, Emma. Have you not seen many of the young cis men around? My youngest and his mates look as if they could pass as either. The change is happening from below, younger people. They have no issue with any of it, the kids I know. Whatever, is their motto.

38

CMD, in Texas when places that had two separate one toilet bathrooms (not stalls) changed their signs from men and women to "all gender" the only negative thing I have witnessed has been some men complaining that they now have to wait in line longer plus some sneering comments about political correctness run amok. But there are stories around the country (and apparently according to BDF in the UK) about self-appointed enforcers following androgynous people (usually women) who are entering the woman's room to see if they are really women. There are some videos of this on YouTube if you are interested. I don't know how prevalent it is, I imagine it's rare.

Ghost, Yes, radical movements that seek to destroy existing oppressive systems in order to work towards liberation are centuries-long struggles that require responding to immediate needs while keeping long term goals in mind. The goal is to reduce harm in the here and now without reinforcing status quo power structures.

Lava, yes I hope this is the way of the future and I agree that many young people seem less hung up on these issues, however there is also a frighteningly large number of young men who are moving right.

My current stint stuck inside is ending so I'm off for a while! Catch y'all later!

39

@29 Yeah, that's exactly the element I've seen convince someone. She was concerned about creepy men coming into the women's room, but when she thought about providing them cover by (in theory) requiring AFAB men to use the women's room, that actually changed her mind.

The "in theory" is what still skeezes me about using this argument. It glosses over the fact that most trans people would not actually be safe using the as-assigned-at-birth bathroom in places that would pass these laws. They're really "trans people shouldn't exist or shouldn't go out or shouldn't pee" laws.

40

I know Emma. Some young men are very scary. Hence you meet them with education not meet their aggression.
Ok. See you later. Take care.

41

@39, Mtn. Beaver, I canā€™t quite get your comment. If you donā€™t like this idea, what do you suggest?
There has to be some push back.

42

Ms Fan - Actually, I would fear being assaulted. Early impression from an inappropriately touchy mother die hard.

I entirely support building realistically-sized women's restrooms.

43

@42 Utmost sympathy for your scenario. But women, cis or otherwise are not assaulting anyone in menā€™s rooms, unless you have anecdotal evidence of your mom doing so, Iā€™m not sure how your past experiences are relevant.

44

Iā€™ve had ambivalent feelings about this issue in the past, because I think unisex bathrooms are the answer, but in large venues, the logistics were hard to square, but I think large scale bathrooms with urinals separated from stall visibility by walls seems like a reasonable compromise. In such busy venues I speculate the opportunities for assault would be minimal.

45

Emma @29: Yes! "If this bill passes, cis men can just pose as trans men to enter women's bathrooms, so you're just making it easier for these straw-man predators you fear." Good argument.

46

@45 execellent point! The qualifying of who goes where has always been about the absurdity that this goes there.

47

Emma @32: I'll miss you! Hope you do continue to spend some time here!

49

GhostDog @30: "what if a lesbian doesn't want to date a trans woman because the transwoman has a penis and the lesbian absolutely won't go near anyone with a penis ever?"

This is fairly common and Dan addressed it, I think, in a letter from a man who is attracted to non-op trans women. He said this man was simultaneously heterosexual, as in attracted to women, and a phallophile, as in attracted to penises. A lesbian who would not date trans women would be a vaginophile. Most people's orientation (towards people) lines up with their orientation (towards genitalia), but not all. So you get trans woman fetishists on the one hand, and lesbians and straight men who would not consider a trans woman with a penis on the other hand. It's no wonder that the likeliest target market for trans folk, particularly non-op ones, is bisexuals.

More broadly I would agree with EmmaLiz's point that no one should consider themself obligated to interact with body parts they're not attracted to, whether that be a feminine trans woman who has a penis, a cis woman with tiny breasts (or very large breasts), a cis man with a hairy chest (or a fully shaved body), etc. In other words no one should have to suck a cock to prove they are not a transphobe.


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