Charles, just call Cliff Mass a Nazi...that's what you're building up to.

I used to like cliff mass. He shows the cool pictures and graphs of weather and stuff and explains things. But then you get to one of his climate change denial articles and it's like he's lost his mind. What happened to him? I can only guess he's somehow one of those people who think his personal actions shouldn't be inhibited in any way or something.

Cliffs main beef with the initiative is the shoddy accountability and half baked ideas for how to spend the actual taxes collected under it. Which are valid points, but there is value in incentivizing reduction of carbon emissions. Vote yes!

Vote no for this silly Mudede/Mass feud. That’s all played out.

The proper response to Cliff is pity - he seems incapable of moving past his own dogma and preconceived notions. His political theory has been discredited (1 out of 5 Republicans voted for the "bipartisan" I-732) and the BC tax that he holds up as a better example of climate policy was recently changed to be revenue positive (just like I-1631!) after emissions reductions in the province flatlined: https://www.sightline.org/2017/09/27/bc-is-increasing-its-carbon-tax/

Most of the folks that stood with Cliff two years ago have been able to move on and accept that climate change is too urgent of a problem to make the perfect the enemy of the good. We're in the process of relocating entire communities right now due to rising oceans, and we're only scratching the surface of the kinds of adaptation we're going to need to do. There is no free-market process that will do that and we don't have time to put a price on carbon and wait for market economics to do their magic: https://qz.com/994459/the-us-is-relocating-an-entire-town-because-of-climate-change-and-this-is-just-the-beginning/

@2 The fact that "Cliff Mass" appeared in the headline should have made it clear this was one of Charles' screeds.

Trump's weatherman is actually the awesomely-named Kelvin Droegemeier*, a respected extreme weather scientist and new Science Advisor to the White House. Of course, probably the only way to "advise" Trump is to manipulate him, so I'd guess the Fox and Friends gang will influence more policy than any scientist could.

I can't even make out how Cliff Mass and Charles fundamentally disagree**. It seems to be a clash of styles more than anything. How did this become so personal?

https://www.vox.com/2018/8/1/17639314/trump-science-adviser-kelvin-droegemeier-ostp
* Googling "Cliff Mass Climate Change Denier" doesn't result in any non-Mudede articles.
A P.I. profiles starts with "Mass, a University of Washington atmospheric sciences professor, believes that human-caused climate change is real and is influencing the world we live in today. It's just not influencing our extreme weather that much. For now. "I'm no skeptic or denier, let me make that clear..." Is this the vitriol I'm worried about?

Oh noez! Cliff mass is now hiding under German hotdogs bed!!!!!! What next!!! The horror

In other news: number of science degrees chuxk mudede has: zero.

Number of failed economic ideologies chuck mudede believes in: at least one

@7

It's pretty easy, really-- one is a man who enables people with totalitarian political impulses while refusing to acknowledge his blog posts have this effect, or even that these dangerous political tendencies exist at all... and the other holds a PhD in Atmospheric Sciences.

@7 " It's just not influencing our extreme weather that much."

He says it's insignificant for which he has no serous evidence and is clearly wrong if considering hurricanes like Harvey. Anyway, he talks like there is no urgency in addressing climate change, which isn't tenable even if climate change were insignifi9cant today. The IPCC made as much clear. If he isn't a climate denier, he has adopted one of their tactics ("yes, climate change is real but it's no big deal")

@5 "we don't have time to put a price on carbon and wait for market economics to do their magic"

So, you are a "no" on I-1631 then, I take it?

The Democratic Party’s official 2018 midterm platform buries just two passing mentions of climate change deep into the infrastructure section — and only as a benefit, not as a cause unto itself.
https://abetterdeal.democraticleader.gov/the-proposals/creating-jobs-lowering-costs-boosting-local-economies/

@10 So you are back after all? Nobody picked you off yet when they put you on an enemy list but what if Mudede puts you on his enemy list too? This time, you're fucked.

15

I wanna get on that list!!!!

https://www.ssec.wisc.edu/~kossin/articles/Kossin_et_al_2013_JClim.pdf

"Our analyses using a new homogenized record of tropical cyclone intensity suggest that the stronger tropical cyclones, globally, have become more intense at a rate of about +1 / ms / decade during the 28-yr period 1982–2009, but the statistical significance of this trend is
marginal."

https://www.gfdl.noaa.gov/global-warming-and-hurricanes/

"In summary, neither our model projections for the 21st century nor our analyses of trends in Atlantic hurricane and tropical storm counts over the past 120+ yr support the notion that greenhouse gas-induced warming leads to large increases in either tropical storm or overall hurricane numbers in the Atlantic."

http://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/1464884917698170

"Attributing blame to elites is central to populist communication. Although empirical research has provided initial insights into the effects of populist blame attribution on citizens’ political opinions, little is known about the contextual factors surrounding its presence in the media. Advancing this knowledge, this article draws on an extensive content analysis (N = 867) covering non-election and election periods to provide insights into how populist blame attributions are embedded in journalistic reporting styles. Using Latent Class Analysis, we first identified three distinct styles of reporting: neutral, conflict, and interpretative coverage. In line with our predictions, we find that populist blame attributions are present most in conjunction with an interpretative journalistic style and least when a neutral journalistic style is used. Populist blame attributions are more likely to be used by journalists of tabloid newspapers than journalists of broadsheet newspapers."

Charles...for the 100th time let me say that following:
I am NOT a denier.
I am very concerned about global warming
I believe we need effective actions to both reduce emissions and to build resilience to climate threats.

How many times do I have to say this?

I was a STRONG supporter of the I-732, the revenue neutral carbon tax. YOU and many of the Stranger folks were against it. Funny how you didn't care much about climate issues then.

I-1631 is regressive (hurts low-income folks), anti-democratic (gives unprecedented power to an unelected board to spend billions of dollars), ineffective (carbon fee is HALF that of I-732), and doles out money to special interest groups...to name a few issues.

Calling me Trump's weatherman is such nonsense. You know plays Trump's game? Folks like you. Trump calls the opposition names. He is divisive. He doesn't bother to learn facts about technical or complex subjects. Sounds familiar? Exactly what you are doing. I am working AGAINST him by trying to find ways to restore the middle...rational, bipartisan decision making.

Please stop harassing me, calling me names, and saying things that are simply not true. And stop acting like a Trump acolyte.

@18, Cliff, you need to sue Charles and The Stranger's publishers and owners to get this to stop. I'm sure you have the pieces documented: gather them touch base with any legal assistance from UW and then pursue a lawsuit. That's the only way they will stop: sue them for libel and defamation. Asking them to stop doesn't work.

19: Cliff seems very reasonable and would likely accept an apology but I doubt any is forthcoming considering the torrent of vitriol spewing like a toxic fountain from the pen of Charles.

@ 18 Liberals against I-732 because it did use the revenue the way they wanted (including apparently Mudede) irresponsibly put their political goals above helping to confront an existential risk. Your opposition to I-1631 because it does not use the revenue the way you want is an irresponsible elevation of your political preferences above confronting an existential crisis.

I've read through all of your posts explaining your opposition and came away with two main takeaways:
1) You have a fantasy that a properly constructed climate change bill could garner significant conservative support and would kick start a national movement, something for which I see absolutely no evidence for (your personal anecdotes about the Yakima rotary club notwithstanding).
2) You believe there are many important climate change mitigation projects, and I-1631 will probably invest in these projects, but you can not be sure that this initiative will spend ENOUGH of its revenue on these important projects. Textbook concern trolling.

Frankly, I find these arguments so weak that I don't believe they are the primary bases of your opposition. However, unlike Charles, I don't believe you are a closet climate change denier. I think you are frustrated that progressive groups torpedoed a bill you liked (I-732), and in your frustration and inability to forgive you have convinced yourself you are justified doing the same. They were puerile and shortsighted then, and you are being puerile and shortsighted now.

I have a hypothesis that Mass finds global warming scientifically fascinating. It’s like one big experiment, and it produces such fascinating data. He can’t help himself. He’s like the sadistic doctor, infecting his patient to watch the magnificent pathology thrive and grow. He’s secretly rooting for the extreme weather. Those pathetic humans aren’t worthy of you, awesome weather. They will never understand your persistent ridges and decadal oscillations like I do.

@18 - The middle you pretend to defend, if it’s represented by republican environmentalists (ha ha ha ha) like Bill Bryant, exists solely in your mind. Your blog’s readership is identical to Alex Jones’s.

If you’re not a denier, spare half your bile for the wanton profiteers and hypocrites in the Trump administration. Funny, you never have any left over for them after you get done with the lying media.

You are at best a misguided fool.

I actually have more respect for slog commenters like international space station and nhl in seattle than “Clifford Mass.” At least their bullshit doesnt pretend to be scientific trvth. It looks and smells like shit.

No one could sue Charles for anything he writes here, aside from maybe if he flat out said something like "Person X is literally a murderer."

See, you have to prove that someone slandering you is someone who is competent enough to understand what they are saying, and is doing so with actual malice.

Charles says so much stupid shit, that it would be hard to prove that he is to be taken seriously, or it was just not an obvious parody article like in The Onion.

Believe it or not, it is actually harder in practice to sue known liars and charlatans like Charles, because your average person should be able to realize that they can't possibly be serious in what they say.

In short, everyone knows Mudede is just a silly clown, so proving he said anything with actual malice would be hard, just by viewing his previous clownish blog posts.

@27 - Opinion is protected speech. Same thing that allows you to post your stupid shit allows Charles to post his stupid shit.

@26 - Oh no, I made it angry. Bullshit like the idea that violence is inevitable or that a lake is a suitable metaphor for 8 billion people on an already dying planet. Let’s say you kill the other people around the lake. If this were a proper metaphor, the lake is poisoned, and the surviving people can’t clean it on their own. And then the friendly happy people start multiplying again anyway (as they do) until you’re right back where you started. Looks like it’s time for the happy friendly people who once murdered their neighbors to murder again, this time their own that they’ll have to re-classify or something. Of course, just like last time, all the friendly happy people have the equivalent ability to kill, so everyone dies.

What a beautiful future. Violence: always a winning solution. Always.

Seriously? Cliff Mass isn't a climate denier at all. And he raises legitimate issues with the bill. Why is Boeing exempt? Why is there no plan for the funds they collect? I want to do something drastic and meaningful to combat climate change, too, but a half-baked and not fully effective law is not going to be it.

I would respond to Charles' inane ramblings but...I kind of feel sorry for him. He is clearly not mentally together and I'm genuinely worried that this article, and his recent slew of unintelligible drivel, are signs of his foray into the mental abyss.

Charles, we're here for you. We know you're not well and want you to seek the treatment you deserve. Please give the Seattle mental health hotline a call at 866-427-4747 to get the support you need.

it's this requirement to be in lock-step with the dogma that will be more the undoing than those that are skeptically dragging their feet. considering we only have so many fucks to give - dollars, time, issues that are elevated to importance - it still is worth questioning if this new scare is truly the real deal, or cooked up like the fear of soviets during the cold war, and many of the other now falsified rallying cries.

one of my conspiracy theories is that the human caused global warming canard is taking focus away from the hijacking of our very epistemology and our information by the tech-giants that have taken over modern life in definitely huxleyan, and almost if not potentially orwellian ways.

have any of you listened to any of the climate skeptic via youtube? names like Lindzen from MIT, Keen U. Colo. I'm not an adherent, but most of the most religious believers in CC dont know and haven't even heard their arguments, and these are people much more involved in climate studies with much more to lose than charles or info-tainer bill nye.

@29 - The lake is poisoned because a bunch of assholes have been living around it, eating shit and then shitting out the shit from that shit into it, bathing in it, dumping trash in it, fighting wars around it, leaving the diseased carcasses of the shitting cows they kill and consume to rot in its waters. But we all have to drink, so that’s why the shit creatures fight over it, because they’re too stupid to work together to protect it. No, THAT is too hard somehow, but the nonstop cycle of gorging and gouging is easy.

Go back to free associating - some of that shit is funny and inventive. You’re worse when you try coherence.

@33 - I have a theory that electricity is a dogma designed to distract us from a dinosaur army hiding under a cloak of invisbility. They want us to believe they went extinct. Thomas Edison is an immortal t-rex field general.

come on people, jump in the water's warm. let's not just leave it to a couple of randos having bus stop mumblings. i'll just say it, I am skeptical of the IPCC, the 97/100 scientists idea, fucking bill "mechanical engineering" "showtime" nye, the power and money on the table to be grabbed by any shifts in control to our energy apparatus, the hyperbole over projected warming when we are in the tenths of degrees on a wobbly graph that isn't hockey sticking nearly like people are implying, the fraction of greenhouse gasses that are human caused CO2 emissions... fuck it, i'll just fess up that I am not fully sold on the full extent of the fears, and the heretical branding of climate centrist Mass is authoritarian and downright scary. peace

do me a favor and bump some lindzen and some richard keen on your workday playlist. these guys are more climate experts than many of the talking heads we get selling us on doomsday scenarios. luckily we have the concept of tenure otherwise ideology would rule over science.

This all started because I suggested that much of what’s driving consumption is useless, unnecessary and unpleasant; Mehlman admitted our system is designed to make people miserable, but lets us kick some Amish ass.

Violence is a losing strategy, even for the winners; and I don’t know that saying that simple truth doesn’t help diminish the prospect of violence somewhere (ideally here), somehow, so Imma keep saying it.

Your thinking I’m an idiot does hurt my feelings, but if curling up in a ball and crying myself to sleep is the price I have to pay for basically advocating for human decency, sign me up.

@37, 38 - I love it when someone thinks the diligent little nerds in white lab coats are defrauding us all so they can rake in thousands of dollars in grant funds, keep shopping at thrift stores, and drive 15-year old Subarus.

Meanwhile...assholes like the Koch brothers amass billions from continuing to pump carbon into the economy and invest hundreds of millions on influencing policy.

Whom to trust more? Whom to trust? It’s a tough one.

Except it’s not.

@40 - Not biological fact, my undear Darwin. Ask Dawkins, and he’ll tell you: nature has no plan, no preconceived replies. She just makes it up as she goes along.

@44 - You flunk analogies and metaphors. Again.

Memetics is bullshit.

Hello, I’m a loser. I play a mustachioed private dick on TV. Never mind me. I just like to cheer the cage match from the shadows. I’m on the side of the winner. I tell the future once it’s arrived. How do you wrap your meat? I like mine in a glove of flesh.

I had tourettes once, but now it’s shingles. Tool.

I am the wolf. I like the sheep. They remind of my mom. I still like to gnash my teeth. I’ll find something else to eat.