Savage Love Oct 23, 2018 at 3:03 pm

Savage Love Letter of the Day

Comments

104

@102 how so?

105

@102 If you think Dan Savage's blog is an instrument of democracy, than perhaps his blog has sway with a few hundred thousand people, but the idea that my stupid, irreverent comment secured a few thousand Trump votes is abjectly absurd. I welcome an explanation though!

106

@102 Not to worry dum dums like to make up and believe stuff, it's why trump is the president.

107

@102 Sporty failed, and what a pathetic attempt. As if he had any room to talk about Trumping.

108

@59 Things did indeed work out well for me - just celebrated my 2nd wedding anniversary, happy as a pig in a mud puddle :)

109

Poor, sad christionists, they don’t have any cakes they won’t bake or weddings they won’t film, if the gay occasion arrises.

110

@108 Best to you, Chaos!

111

I’ll second that chaosgirl, Yeah.
And regards to you antiserumite.

112

@97. antiserumite. 'Ire'? I'm not angry at Dan. He is an exemplary advice-giver. In this case I think he could say, 'you know, the Straight Romance is a fairytale'.

My advice? My pointed advice was 'don't fetishize poverty', but, failing that, I suppose it's 'cut him off and look into therapy', like everybody else's.

113

You’re turning into a troll Harriet with your constant anti straight bull. You jealous or something.

114

Hey, not much to add to the advice for the LW, but -
What do you say to a friend that may be falling into this? IS there anything? Besides asking if they've met his/her friends/family/coworkers, seen their place, is there any remedy besides hoping they don't end up a single mom with herpes?

115

So, you know he is pressing your buttons somehow - the ones that override all the bullshit he's feeding you. Perfect kisser? Makes you turn to jelly when he holds you? Knight in shining armour? Always seems to know what you need?

Identifying what those buttons are is the work you have do now, the work that you are obviously avoiding.
Somewhere in there you are thinking that his presence in your life overcomes all the crap you are willing to accept from him. You need to face up to the reality that he isn't delivering the things you think he has to offer, you just think that he is.

It took me a long time: of being the supportive one sympathizing with all his misfortune; making allowances for his shortcomings; listening to all of his problems.
Then one day, he turned up and talked about himself for about 25 min with no signs of interest in the really bad time I was going through; that's when it finally clicked that it was pointless. I told him "we no longer have any common ground" and he left.

I wish I could say that a weight lifted from me that day, but it didn't.
It has taken me the best part of 15 years and I still haven't found anyone that has made me think all the effort is worth it. But at least I'm not still waiting for him to turn up.

I hope you get to let go and move on as soon as you can.
It sucks but, like all addictions, there will come a time that you realize that the drug (him) doesn't actually make you feel as good as you thought.

x

116

Hey CatB, how you doing. Speak the truth as you see it if you’re a friend.

117

@113. Lava, I would have thought you would have agreed with the advice not to fetishize poverty, farm- or rural labor or the working class.

And to agree to being wary when a man tells a 48yo with kids that he loves her, would never do anything to hurt her, and that she is The One.

118

And those questioning why the LW calls herself fierce have never been a single mom of three.

119

@114 Cat Brother
I like Dan's usual advice in that sort of situation, which IIRC goes something like:
Tell them what you think, then drop it (and if THEY ask you to tell them again until you get sick of it). At worst it still lose you a friend until they regret not taking your advice.

120

You don’t see any subtlety Harriet. Thump thump crash bang. Again how would you know what I’d respond to or not. I see no fetish. You invent bull to make noise and get attention just like any troll.

121

In A&E's own words, "what attracted me to him was our difference". I don't see what's "touristy" or "fetishizing" about that, even after re-reading the start of the letter.

122

116 Lava, #119 Curious - Yeah, my friend has, from what I can see, a bad habit of pushing all her chips into the middle of the table, real fast.

One week with him in Vegas (not either of their home towns) and He's the One. To myself, I was like, man, gimme a week, especially if you don't see any of my stuff or people back home, I can make you think I'm Prince Ranier in exile and I just drove my rocket car here from Venus. A month later, she's talking about having his child, at age 48(!) Knowing that inserting oneself into New Wub is like sticking your face in a fan, I've kept to, "Well, that will be interesting' and suchlike.
Man, I know the world is starved for love and romance, but when did everyone go bonkers? And short-notice bonkers?

123

@103 because you're a piece of shit bigot who doesn't think rural (conservatives) are valid human beings. So they hate your bitch ass and then reflexively vote against anything you stand for. Congrats, you fucking loser.

124

@121 it's borderline. Imagine if this were a white LW. For whatever reason, we think some differences are "valid" to be attracted to and others aren't. For eg, We're OK with white people who don't want to date other white people, but not white people who want to date black, latino, or asian people. It's a very curious mental bloc for a lot of people. We're also not OK with white people who only want to date white people, although what's the number, like 85% of white people have only ever dated other white people?

125

@122 Cat Brother
Correction, the Dan-advice I agree with includes not just "if THEY ask you to tell them again", but also when they later complain about it.

Tell her what she needs to hear, man. THAT is being a real friend. I know most people won't, because giving people advice that will be difficult to GIVE is, er, difficult (and risky for the advisor). A real friend steps up when it isn't easy to.

126

@125 p.s.
By risky I mean you could lose a friend as I said @119. I have (until they later thanked me for being the ONLY one willing to tell them the truth). But even if you lose a friendship for good because someone can't hear you give them your truth even though it was hard to do and out of love, maybe there's less friendship there to lose that you thought?

To me a friendship where no one will do the hard thing out of love is pretty shallow.

Do I always TAKE advice? Hell no, but I always listen compassionately and at least explain /why/ I'm not taking it. And I guess eventually I'd get so sick of it I'd ask them to not bring it up again.

127

125 I was just re-watching the first John Wick movie. Keen observers will note that the book the security guard is reading (at the airport or whatever where Wick plays Hot Wheels with his Mustang) is Shibumi, by Trevanian. Quote that pops up a couple times in there is 'Who must do the difficult things? He who can.'

I don't know, man, This seems more like a job for a Groovy Aunt or Gay Bestie, who can just lay some knowledge down with immunity;" Girl, it's OK to get dick-drunk, but you sit back and enjoy the buzz, you don't move into the bar!"

128

@127 Cat Brother
"I don't know, man..."

Then I say trust your gut.

Particularly since it seems to me that the people most in need of advice are least likely to take it.

(But still, in the example I noted @126, friend later said my advice was the seed that led to getting their life back.)

129

Mr Curious - She "swooned" over being addressed as, "Ma'am," and having doors opened for her, after opening with presenting as an Amazon. Sounds touristy to me, but it's not a biggie.

130

You're never going to get a reasonable explanation for why he is such a piece of shit. That's what I always found the hardest part of bad relationships, and this is a seismically bad relationship. There is no objective reason. You have to let go of finding answers, and write him off with the knowledge that he just does terrible things.

131

Since no one else noticed, congratulations on the hunsky Antiserumite. This hardly feels like a SL column this week with how nice most people are playing and the others simply not commentiy. Either a lot of readers came out of the woodwork to offer this lw support and encouragement or a lot of regulars used a different name! Awesome either way.

132

'My' pathological liar did me the greatest favor, ever, by dropping dead at 37. The honeymoon was replaced with grief. Until slowly but surely his lies unraveled as I dealt with his worldly goods, etc. He lied about insignificant things and and heart breaking things. Everything. As my awareness grew, so did my gratitude that he was no longer able to affect my life. I felt fortunate.
Please protect yourself. Get some relief, right now and cut him loose. It will be a very good thing.

133

LW, I think it's your feeling of vulnerability that's keeping you tied to this mess of a man. You can be alone - it would be a hell of a lot more peaceful than what you've got now. So ask yourself why being alone makes you feel so vulnerable right now. And then focus on dealing with THAT stuff. Also, build up your spirit. When I've felt obsessive about something or someone, I've found ways to laugh about it. Laughing can break the spell of obsession. Idea: make a comic strip out of your situation. When I found out my guy was cheating on me, I turned him into a pathetic 'superhero' who wore an inflatable mattress around his neck instead of a cape. That made me laugh so hard! Also, find music that inspires you and sing along with it LOUD. Rekindle your feisty spirit! And see that therapist - give yourself some solid support. What you're going through sucks. Having strong allies will help you a lot. Stay strong!

134

If you’ve made it this far in the long long long comments, this was my snap-to moment — I don’t want to be with someone who doesn’t want to be with me. Selah.

135

It's a good idea to get a ton of information about a person you are considering being life partners with. If you'd like to keep having sex with him, it sounds like you need to tell him to divorce, move in with you and stay every night, while you support him, and any kids if he has them. Be straightforward about your sexual needs from him, frequency, positions, and if you will provide an allowance etc.. He will try to bang other women but you can bang other guys too. Hopefully he can help out in some way with the kids as well as be a trophy husband. You don't say much about your kids.

It seems to be a difficult way to cope with loneliness but I don't see why she can't get what she wants, it sounds like he may be desperate enough to agree.

If she doesn't want him and just hates him she should leave him alone and learn to love again.

136

@129, Mr Venn, how is it touristy? A tourist looks, and this woman did more than look. If you think women of strength can’t enjoy being with a charming man, then you have very rigid notions. It’s not his manners which are the problem here.

137

Antiserumite @72: "I don't know why you need to be insulting"
Funny, that was exactly my thought when you made that insulting and entirely irrelevant post @45. I have got nothing more to say, my point is made and either you take it on board or you don't. Not my circus, not my monkey.

Harriet @80: "We don't know what kind of man A&E falls for, but a natural inference would be that it's one who says that 'he loves her' or 'calls her The One'."
Who WOULDN'T be taken in by such professions? Being loved isn't a "fetish." (I think you may need to look up the definition of fetish.) Again, this was a master manipulator who said all the right things to a lonely single mother who was desperate to believe them.
"So--it would seem--it isn't solitude itself she fears"
Quoting A&E herself: "holy shit Dan, I don't want to be alone."
"rather, she perhaps loses all judgment before a guy who professes undying love."
Again, very few people of any gender wouldn't.
"I don't see much evidence of the guy being a great manipulator."
Whaaaat? The whole letter is about how he manipulated her. By professing love, calling her "ma'am" and opening doors, feigning monogamy, when he didn't have enough real respect for her to tell her who he really was. He lied repeatedly: "He lies even when it carries no apparent benefit or secondary gain. He is a pathological liar." Somehow he manages to get away with this without using the one thing that works on me -- great sex. I guess this goes to show how far old-fashioned manners really will go! But yes, he picked this vulnerable woman -- these vulnerable women -- BECAUSE he is a manipulator and that's who they gravitate to. I don't know how this is even contestable.

Curious @84: "At one point I would have made that joke myself. I'm in a place now though, where I wouldn't feel good about myself for that"
I thank you on behalf of my family members who live in South Carolina and have tasteful furnishings and beautiful teeth.
"I'm just thinking something pushed a button with Harriet"
Probably; they're not generally so judgey. It's good practice to explain your buttons -- as, for example, Venn has -- when making unreasonable generalisations.

Harriet @88: The difference is that A&E is in pain, while the "stereotypical het-male behaviour" you refer to is more often than not the cause of someone else's pain. Men in pain tend to get the sympathy they deserve, too.

Antiserumite @94: I think that advice is "you got what you deserved so please punish yourself even more, and from here on out, only hypergamy for you!"

Lava @113: I agree with you this time. Harriet could have said "romance is a fairy tale." Which again wouldn't have been either helpful or what A&E asked for, but it would have been just as accurate. Gay romance is less of a fairy tale? Really?

Cat @114: Unfortunately, nope. Oxytocin is one of the most powerful drugs there is. Carolyn Hax would say: Keep checking in with the person; ask them leading questions like "are you happy? How did that make you feel?" but don't trash the partner, as that will push the victim to the abuser's side; and let them know you'll be there for them without judgment if/when it falls apart.
And bear in mind that being a single mom with herpes is not the worst thing in the world. Most people have herpes!

CatB @122: I'm sorry to hear this, but not EVERYONE has gone bonkers. This immediate "I wub you" stuff would scare off a great many of us. That's how the manipulators find their victims! The ones who don't run, who fall for it, are the ideal marks. And they have always existed. Google "Britney Spears wedding" or, well, I bet Venn can think of several Victorian-era examples. Hope your friend comes to her senses before she makes the kid mistake. (The odds are good she's already made the herpes mistake, aka "having sex.")

Sporty @123: Can't believe it, but I completely agree.

138

@121. curious. The LW goes on to say more than that about the form the 'difference' takes--her supposed partner's manners, speech, physical strength, his 'Yes, Ma'am'. She picks up on markers that are external and, to my ear, speaks about them in an externalizing way. There's no e.g. 'as well as his being articulate, his perspective on things is strikingly and challengingly different from the received views of the white-collar professionals I see every day'. As the letter goes on, its tone comes, or came, increasingly to rub me up the wrong way: the interjection of 'Dan', the capitalizations, the '10/18/18', the FIVE HOURS etc. The LW lost, for me, a sense of how she was coming over, however much pain and (rightful) indignation she was feeling--lost the sense she might be camp or ludicrous. It’s not good for anyone to do that. I think more people would have been angry at her on these grounds, or laughed at her, had it not been for Dan's guidance to the commentariat.

A&E's lover is abominable--a con artist. I think she also treated him in a shaming, depersonalizing way. Did she conduct their relationship with a due sensitivity to the disparity in their wealth, levels of education and opportunities? It occurred to @2 immediately that he might not answer her emails because he was ashamed of his near-illiteracy, as it did to me; it didn't seem to occur to her at all.

139

Well, Harriet @138. It's good to know that there are fewer assholes who'll kick someone when they're down than you anticipated.
And who's making class-based assumptions? "Near illiteracy"? Perhaps that didn't occur to her because it is not the case. She says he lacks a high school education; most people can read by age eight or so. And it doesn't explain his not returning her phone calls either; the other girlfriend and wife do. But thanks for explaining that there's no basis for your negative attitude, other than she "rubs you up the wrong way" due to her writing style, about which I see nothing objectionable.

140

The only thing I see that's objectionable is "in her filthy bed," which is probably his own description but probably should have been put in quotation marks; as is, it appears that she herself is shaming her co-victim, with whom she had bonded. But I'll cut her slack for this one snide remark given the context of how badly she's been hurt and used here.

141

Not really fussed whether you agree with me or not on this issue Fan, you are a bi woman and may not be so attuned to slights against straight people.

142

137 Bi - Yeah, it's a hell of a drug. That's why I'm wishing for the relationship version of a court jester, who can say pretty much anything without being beheaded. "You're 'in love' and it's been ONE WEEK? Sister, in a week you 'know' two things about a person: Jack, and Shit, and Jack just left town. What you 'know' is what they told you, and if they're the wrong kind of person, they're really really good at telling you just what you want to hear."

Ahhh....at least I get to say it to you guys. And to any other poor soul who thinks Merchant-Ivory makes documentaries, not fiction.

143

@137. Bi. You're usually a good reader but here you're joining the comments'-page resident bad and skim-readers, in falling in with moralized nostrums, whether or not they fit the specific case:

A&E's 'fear of being alone'. Yes, she says that she fears being alone. And she's part of a demographic, single mothers in their late 40s, often represented as being at an elevated risk of solitude. But is she alone, sexually or romantically; or likely to remain alone, if she is able to dissociate from this awful guy? When she opens the relationship, she finds other lovers. She is very sexually experienced--implying that she has either had a lot of different sex in few relationships, or many relationships. It would seem that what she means by 'being alone' is not being with someone who professes love for her, whose love is as unconditional as her own. But aloneness and this particular brand of un-fulfilment aren't quite the same thing;
' 'Anyone would' fall for protestations of undying love'. Hmm, maybe. But for how long? The LW learns very quickly that they do not match his behavior. He does not answer his phone. He 'almost always' stands her up. She elicits his professions because she 'knows' that all is not as he represents--asking repeatedly, for instance, whether 'there was any other woman in his life'. In these circumstances, I think the average person would think that--would consider whether--his marked romantic professions were a compensation for his shitty behavior. That is, they wouldn't excuse, explain away, the behavior, but would pose another question mark alongside the behavior. Isn't this the premise of how people are advising A&E? That she's unusually susceptible to fantasies of the perfect romance? (And for whatever reason). But you're now saying that everyone is susceptible;
'He is a master manipulator'. Yes ... the car is a masterstroke. And not just any car, but a 'garbage car'. True, this may come to light after she finds out about his other girlfriend (though not definitely). But she is still hooked on him. Wouldn't a master manipulator at least pick up his phone when she calls him? Wouldn't it be credibly manipulative to fake sexual interest? When she asks point blank whether he'll be spending the night with his fellow student, in the course of five hours during which he's pleading with her not to pull the plug on him, wouldn't it be prudent and just a bit masterful not to--to go round to her house, A&E's, instead? Now, he could be shrewd enough to understand that the way to keep her on the hook is to treat her appallingly. But I think he's a mess himself--however wretched he is, however much he's lied. He could find a cheaper meal ticket; there has to be some way he wants to be, thinks he should be, at least some of the time, with A&E.

This is the way he's not a 'pathological liar', as she calls him, for me. A systematic liar, sure.

144

@135. Philophile. This is an interesting suggestion. But would he want it? What does he want? Does he even know?

145

Lava @141: Snarking at me for agreeing with you? Eh?

Harriet @143: We all choose to read letters through the lens of our own experience (I assure you I did not "skim" it any more than you did), so let's just agree to differ.

One point, when did I say that "everyone is susceptible" to manipulators? I said quite the opposite -- she was susceptible because of her loneliness, her fear of being alone (which does not equate to never being able to find partners -- it's an irrational fear, like so many others), and her own view of herself as "smart except when it comes to love."

I've now lost the gist of your argument, except that you're taking a Skeptic-and-Cynic route of fleshing out this story with facts, I know not why. Mr A&E's manipulation tactics may not have worked on you, but they sure worked on A&E, and I don't know what your point is -- are you trying to paint HIM as the victim because someone better educated preyed on his blue-collar stupidity and forced him to lie? You seem to be projecting your own experience, about which I know nothing, so I'm going to let this line of discussion drop.

146

@137. Bi. (Comment about stereotypical het-male bad behavior causing pain to women). Here you make a good point, and one I considered myself. My response would be, 'which of the (main) genders' stereotypical bad behaviors, male or female, causes the most pain?'; and, even if you think it's men's, in a romantic context, you might also say that the two 'rote' or default scripts were complementary. In other words, talk of 'toxic masculinity' would seem redundant, or rather incomplete, to me, without also talk of 'toxic heteronormativity', or one that isn't working in the interests of straight women.

The 'kicking her while she's down' point is similar to Fichu's, and I'd reject it. Someone can be down, or in pain, and be monstrously wrong, or laughable. The people saying practically helpful things will be those sufficiently like A&E to have gone through similar experiences--which won't be me (or, probably, you). Given the preponderance of those comments on the thread, I don't think it's wrong of me to react spontaneously to the letter, nor to draw out from her attitudes (as I'm taking them) a wider reflection on dating practices and gender politics.

Incidentally, the numbers with which I responded above in points 1, 2, 3 have disappeared (are even numbers, as well as italics, off limits to commenters now?).

Must dash--I'm making an unscheduled bridesmaid's appearance at Lava's wedding-to-Brad-Pitt bash in Boggabilla.

147

@145. Bi. I don't think I'm inventing facts. You often think I overrread.... What 'facts' am I making up, rather than plausibly inferring?

My mother responded to my father's adulteries by soaking them up and passive-aggressively retiring to a side-chapel to pray. I was packed away to boarding-school. Don't read too much into this! ;) !

148

Harriet @146: If you think I can't relate to A&E's story, you really haven't read many of my comments. Heard the one about the ex-husband who bankrupted me and cost me my house? I'd refer you to my helpful comments @44 and @56.

But at least your comments have led me to see that Lava was right about you -- speaking at length about heterosexual relationship dynamics, and contradicting those who have far more experience in them than you do (ie zero). I'm not sure why you're here if you just want to laugh at the stupid straight people. I'll put you on my "skim this person who's talking out of their ass" list.

149

Ms Lava - This letter strikes me as largely a US-located version of the Pulp song "Common People".

150

@129 vennominon
"She "swooned" over being addressed as, "Ma'am," and having doors opened for her, after opening with presenting as an Amazon"

Oh, I hadn't thought of that math, maybe y'all are right.

I honestly never thought of this tourist thing before. (And I'd simply dismissed her Amazon self-image [as someone else did upthread] as part of her defense mechanism, instead of leaving it on the table as a clue.)

It still feels to me plausible that, particularly because she's influenced by significant insecurity, she could have always yearned for the kind of manners/respect so lacking in the modern world. Maybe it's a coincidence that he stepped out the car he lives in instead of an Austen novel?

@130 Bumble_bitch
"You're never going to get a reasonable explanation for why he is such a piece of shit...There is no objective reason. You have to let go of finding answers, and write him off with the knowledge that he just does terrible things."

Well, one /could/ produce a reasonable explanation, but it's not at all worth the effort; an explanation could theoretically help /him/ (but, A&E, no way in hell will it), but she shouldn't care about him she should leave him.

OTOH when people are crazy, /then/ there is no explanation. Crazy is about lacking something; as much as one wants to see what explains crazy, even with a microscope one can't see a MISSING thing.

151

@148. Bi. The two comments of yours you referred me to are indeed helpful, but neither are about your being bankrupted by your ex-husband.

My line here is not difficult to understand. It's 'the knight-on-a-white-charger story of heterosexual romance can be a fairytale. It can be a damaging expectation to have, for more vulnerable straight women--and heteronormative expectations don't do non-heterosexuals any favors, either'. I think someone would have to be studiedly obtuse, or else blinded by prejudice or misconception, not to see what I'm saying. As to why I said 'straight romance', rather than 'picture-book romance', 'fairytale romance', the reason is that there is still more of a range of alternative relationship models in gay male culture. There's the word 'gay-realistic'--no het equivalent (as far as I know). A straight woman won't often say, 'yes, I just got married, but hey, I'm male-realistic'.

You have implied that, after failing to pick up on a woman's phone calls, failing to turn up, on an almost constant basis, to her house for the night, a simple way for a man to disarm this straight woman's suspicions, to bowl her over, is to say that he loves her, that he would never do anything to hurt her, that he wants to marry her, that she is The One. Sorry--but no. This would not capture the response of most of the heterosexual women I know. Most such women would not be disarmed. They would want to know how a man could say such things and at the same time behave so badly.

This is a case where you're saying I know nothing about heterosexual women--and I think your line implies a comparative blankness about heterosexual women; and you're saying I'm being het-phobic, and I think the implication of your assumptions is much more het-phobic re straight women.

Before, when I said 'I see no evidence' of his being 'a great manipulator', I think you took me to be saying, 'I see no evidence of his being a manipulator', rather than 'a good, a skillful' 'manipulator'. Of course he's thoroughly manipulative.

152

That guy sounds a lot like this guy: https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2018/04/our-time-com-con-man/554057/ (I'm sorry if someone already posted this article - I didn't read all 150 comments.)

A&E I know it feels devastating to think about being without him, but please escape before he takes all of your money along with your self-esteem, faith in people and sense of safety. Go on a few dates with other people and try to remember that there are other hot, polite southern dudes out there who aren't lying shitbags.

153

Holy Fucking Shit. I only made it a few paragraphs in and I don't really have time to read the rest nor read the comments right now, but I just have to add that I lost track at the number of stupid cliches this woman expressed after counting to about a dozen of them. This person thinks she is a star in her own personal movie. My suggestion: get a hobby, make friends, travel a bit, do stuff with your kids. The arrogance and class/regional elitism and slay queen bs- sorry your rugged working class hero turned out to just be an asshole, instead of thinking about him, instead try to become the sort of person who doesn't compete for the affections of a lying cheating homeless womanizer. The man you are pining over does not exist in reality- that's not what's really distracting you from your work or causing your crisis.

154

I'm not taking either side of the tourism argument here because I think there's a little something to both. She is not slumming it- she's not coming from a place of tourism because she's desperately lonely and insecure herself. But she was in fact fetishizing poverty and the south. Since she seems totally unaware of this, I don't think she's being offensive so much as delusional- again that desperation and loneliness. Both of which are perfectly normal, folks! Human beings need to be with other human beings! There is nothing wrong with admitting this! Toxic masculinity says men should be stoic and have no emotional needs. This is terrible for the men who are lonely, emotionally repressed, suicidal, etc because they try to pretend they need nothing. It's terrible for the people (usually women but also their children) who must provide for their emotional needs while also being careful not to make the men feel needy. But this shit does not just affect men. This culture atomizes people and then tells them they are weak if they are miserable being alone and that success in life is a good career. So here we have this woman claiming how strong and independent she is and how she has a good white collar job, etc. By the end of the letter, she's admitting she's lonely. Even a glance at the letter reveals she's desperately lonely, insecure, has a big giant gaping hole where meaning/purpose/love should be- she wants to fill it with anything, the easiest is drama (I doubt she thinks about it this way). She does not love this man, she is not the one, this man- the one in her mind- doesn't exist. There are no working class heroes of rugged masculinity- people are complex and working class people are just as complex as the rest of us and just as likely or unlikely to be lying cheating pieces of shit- you might fall for it from someone unlike you because you believe the cliche and the unfamiliarity makes it easier or you to excuse the red flags, that's all, but this isn't the same as slumming it or class tourism since it's so unaware. Focus on yourself first. Admit that you want love- that you need others. Then be honest with yourself about what you are and what you can offer, and be gentle with others.

As for the romance discussion, just a quick point: first off of course not all women want romance and some men want romance as well, likewise with porn, not all men want that and some women want it as well, but in terms of generalizations, we find that more women like romance and more men like porn etc. So if I start to rant about how porn provides men with unrealistic expectations of what to expect from sex and that this can be harmful in how they relate to or treat women in real life, you will respond that actually men are perfectly capable of knowing the difference between fantasy and reality and that porn is not harmful. Likewise with women and romance. If you really think that there are more women suffering from the bias of romantic fantasy than there are men suffering from the bias of porn fantasy, then maybe examine which you take to be a default value and which you see as an anomaly.

155

My own belief is that there are in fact women who suffer from bullshit romance expectations and enter into relationships expecting them to be like their fantasies, just like there are men who suffer from bullshit sexual expectations from porn and then treat women accordingly. But most people are able to tell the difference between fantasy and reality- and that goes for romance as much as for porn. So what I think is healthy is to consider them both for what they are and play along from time to time. Your man wants to watch porn? Let him do it and ignore it. And every now and then, spice up your sex life and do something new and dirty from his fantasies, etc. Likewise with men. Your woman wants to read romance novels? Let them do it and ignore it. And every now and then, make her feel loved and do something romantic like plan an evening out with dancing, flowers and moonlight whispered sweet nothings, etc. It's not cool to say we should open up to some kinds of fantasies and devalue others.

And any case, my point was that the conversation about romance has nothing to do with the larger issue- which is the loneliness and need for others which is natural and not unique to either women nor women who consume romance (hence my comparison above to the male equivalent) - it's normal human behavior to want others and it's our society that has made us so atomized and then bullshit cultural emphasis on independence on top of that which cause people to refuse to admit it (I'm a strong woman, I'm a stoic man). That's obviously going to cause all sorts of delusions as someone tries to square away the reality of their loneliness with the myth of their self-reliance.

156

I don't have much to tell the letter writer, except that there are plenty of men who want a highly sexual woman like herself and who treat women well.

She will never find those guys when she spends every waking moment focusing on this guy who is wrong for her in just about every way.

157

Kathryn Lena - Holy Fucking Shit, thank you for posting that.
The reason I don't find, admittedly from a distance, my friend's new romance on the up and up, is that after a whirlwind week in Vegas, he said he wanted to move (from an unknown state, but not WA) to Seattle to be with her. Now, I think my friend's great, but I don't care if you have a face like an angel, brain like a computer, and an ass round and hard as a bocce ball, "I've known you for a week and now I'll move x-country for you" is shit you do in your mid-20's, usually to later regret, or younger, not in your 40's or later. Except possibly in Alaska, I hear wimmins be rare up there.
And she fits the profile - late 40's, recently divorced. And utterly without guile or duplicity, which I think may lead her to attribute the same to others.

Re the Southern Charm/slumming angle - I like in Charleston,SC, home of the show of the same name (where everyone also knows T Ravenel is a feckless cokehead) and also of the Citadel. I am here to tell you, you can be the courtliest, jump to your feet when a lady exits or enters, softly drawling mofo this side of Rhett Butler, and still beat your wife or think the blacks were better down on the old plantation...
There were a few guys from the Citadel on my dragon boat team. They were well-groomed, polite, well-spoken, and would jump to help an old lady across the street. They were also totally regressive in their political and cultural attitudes, and would be happy to see the clock back not a few decades.
Ladies, if you go touristing, do hang on to your passports. Nice to visit, wouldn't want to live some places.

158

Good to have you back EmmaLiz, I've missed you!

159

Wooo, after reading that Atlantic article, was immediately like 'fuck it,' sent my friend a link to it with an email to please consider shit objectively. Taking bets now how it'll go, but will say I feel like a load is offa me.

160

@159 Cat Brother
Good luck!
(I try to only communicate highly sensitive things in person.)

161

Harriet @151: And you have said nothing -in this particular thread- about your being genderqueer, yet I know that you are, BECAUSE YOU HAVE MENTIONED IT PREVIOUSLY on more than one occasion.

"Studiedly obtuse" seems to fit you quite well, as you continue to misconstrue everything I've said. I have implied nothing about what the majority of heterosexual women would do if they were dating someone like Mr A&E. I have said repeatedly that Mr A&E's charms and lies worked on A&E because she is lonely and has low self-esteem, which makes her vulnerable. "Everyone likes to hear 'I love you'" does not mean "Everyone will fall for any con artist who says 'I love you'."

I'd also like to point out that perhaps the fact that no one but you is indeed saying "ha ha, serves you right" means that your interpretation is in fact off?

Quick wedding, or I guess you didn't make it past the bouncers.

162

Three things I can comment on, going from snarky to not snarky.

One: I've never met anyone, man or woman, who actively describes themselves as "fierce" that doesn't have a Santa sized bag of issues.

Two: I don't know if this guy is a narcissist or not, but he's behaving and manipulating people like he is. And you're right now a back-burner emotional blood bag for this vampire. I'm sure he love bombs the crap out of you when you encounter him and then he slowly sucks you emotionally exhausted before putting you on the back burner to build up again. Look up how to deal with, leave, and recover from narcissists. I think it'll be beneficial for you.

Three: Leading from part two, you need to do two things immediately. First, you need to find some therapy here. If you're beyond any rationality with this guy you need professional help to provide context and a link to reality. Second, you need to institute No Contact. This is a concept form dealing with sociopaths and narcissists. You don't yell at him, you don't break up with him in a flourish, when he tries to bug you you've blocked him or if he gets around that, you do not respond. Because a response means you can be manipulated. Any response, even anger, is a chink in the armor your need to set up for yourself, because anger and fighting is cathartic, and after you let it out, you're vulnerable to manipulation. Don't go there.

TLDNR version: Get thee to therapy, go read up on leaving and recovering from narcissists, even if he isn't a narcissist, and No Contact.

163

Harriet, I've never heard the term "gay realistic," but if you don't think it has a straight female equivalent, you've never heard the song "Stand By Your Man" by Tammy Wynette.

164

Good points Emma Liz.
I do think most of you are not taking in how much effort the LW needs to put in emotionally and physically keeping three kids going, alone, as well as keeping a job down. That’s why her self label of fierce fits for me Flatline42 @162. Because to do that job, one would need to be fierce to create a safe and secure environment for the family by covering all fronts. Good point about looking up how to leave a narcissist.
Romance is not just for women. Some of the best love stories and scenes have been written by men, in novels or films. I think your division re porn and romance isn’t expansive enough EL. There is ethical porn, intelligent porn, which can arouse all with it’s skill. And there’s well written novels which include romance and other aspects of life. I’d hate to think all men had been stripped of their sense of play around romance with a woman.
You’re a southern man CatB, and charming. Don’t see no hidden violent bits.
Perhaps the discussion about class divide is different to my experience. One of my sons/ who is over there Fan, in England with his gf/ is a builder, and around me are working class people, farmers. What attracts is their use of their bodies. No sitting at desks for hours a day. Intelligence takes many forms.
A woman with three children, best bet is to look for a single dad, so she can create a blended family with him. She needs to quit behaving like she is a single woman indulging herself with fools like this man.

165

Agreed, Lava re: raising the kids. But even a strong person who is managing two very difficult jobs needs love and companionship- this does not make her weak to admit it. We all need help.

Re: porn and romance, I’m not claiming that they are all the same (we’ve had that conversation before) or making any judgements on quality. I’m highlighting the discrepancy between the kind of fantasy that is considered ludicrous/damaging and the kind that is considered normal so long as it stays in the realm of fantasy- this tends to fall upon gender lines. Not surprising then that het relationships would have some conflict here while gay relationships are more realistic- the men only have to deal with the fantasies of other men which they understand. The straights have to deal with two different kinds of fantasies. And of course, it’s the women’s version that is considered ludicrous. (Again, not that all women this or all men that, generalizations). 



But my bigger point is that in this particular case, romance has nothing to do with it. It’s about alienation and loneliness in a culture that values independence beyond anything else. I don't think this issue is gendered- but its manifestation is. The female version tends to be this fierce strong woman who can’t admit she needs a man. The male version tends to be the stoic emotionally repressed man who can’t admit he has feelings. 

And in this case, the woman probably fell for shit she otherwise wouldn’t have fallen for because of her patronizing view of working class men- and her lack of familiarity with them. I too am mostly surrounded by working class men, have mostly dated them (yes because I like strong bodies) and I’m in the south. As such, my familiarity with working class men would make me see red flags all over the place if one acted like this guy- working class men can be assholes just as much as any other, they can also be great guys just as much as any other. This woman was partially blind to his bad behavior because of her elitism. But she is mostly “allowing” herself to lose all willpower in this situation because she is desperately lonely. This isn’t about romance or slumming- this is a woman who is unable to admit that she is being crushed by shouldering enormous burdens alone because she takes pride in being fierce. Culturally, we have to get over this bullshit- we’ve taken the wrong lessons from the Sisyphus story. And it’s not because of ridiculous het relationship ideals, although I would like to point out yet again that it’s the women in this letter who are raising the kids alone while this piece of shit runs around philandering. I’m sure the real problem is that these women read too many white knight fairy tales and should just be more realistic about what men want, you know, like the gays.

166

Of course it’s a cultural fuck up. Where is the the father or father’s of her children. I still contend to do this job she has to find fierce in herself. Not saying she isn’t also vulnerable and wanting to share her life and her burdens. And I hope she finds that, it’ll take her to use her head and look in the right places for such a companion.
It’s a tough and hard rd she’s got herself on, and there’s no time to waste choosing waste of space men. Why she’s caught by this guy could be a zillion reasons. He’s like her dad or mom like John Wayne and she’s still waiting for the real good guy to finally show himself. It’s a jumbled mess we get fed, and for mothers especially, it’s a bunch of lies. So use her head, and first off get this guy gone and yes No Contact. This will take time and courage, and hurt.
Then using her head, go find a single dad.

168

A&E this guy is 100% psychopath My brother was this guy, so I know him well. The lying even though the truth would be better, the lousy in bed, (selfishness) the sad stories of living in his car and spending weekends helping poor, elderly Mom, I've heard them all before, because these people (psychopaths) all follow the same patterns. Like my brother, this guy will clean out your bank accounts and put credit cards in your name, as my brother did to his wife, my parents and at least one girl friend. Trust me, get yourself into counseling and run like hell from this guy. He doesn't love you, his Mom (if she exists) nor the other girl friend. He's sick. RUN

169

I wish you could buy internet spellcasting to make an ex never fucking come back. But no, always the other way, ho hum.

And spellcasting to get yourself out of love with a shitty lover. That would be huge obviously.

170

Lava @166: "Where is the the father or father’s of her children."
She said: "I'm divorced, help my now disabled ex whenever I can."

171

Mtn @169: Yes, indeed! Whoever invents the cure for love would make a (well deserved) fortune.

172

@161. Bi. The bouncers bounced me out the country :( ;) ! (Actually I think Australia is culturally in some ways a superior country to the US or Britain).

I'd dispute that my response is isolated. What's happening, to my mind, is that posters are following Dan's unusual guidance to go easy on the LW--and some people, duly and correctly, are emerging from being just readers to offer their own stories. Just to take the responses of three people who comment regularly, and who don't like the endless second-guessing or fine-slicing of reactions, we have:

"My head is still spinning from this letter, causing me to stumble about in a fog … and abandon my normal creed of “be sympathetic...” "

"...by the end [had I read more] I’d feel like giving you a head swipe and asking wtf woman".

"Holy Fucking Shit. I only made it a few paragraphs in and … just have to add that I lost track at the number of stupid cliches this woman expressed after counting to about a dozen of them. This person thinks she is a star in her own personal movie. [Such] arrogance and class/regional elitism and slay queen bs...."

I think the last person hadn't read Dan's guidance--any more than I had, actually, when I first responded. I don't think the comments typically hew to a norm of not criticising or taking exception to a LW, or of supposing them estimable in all of their traits and actions. Not mocking them is an excellent norm--which I'd hope would only be violated in extremis.

173

I agree with the people saying that men can also have reality-divorced idealisations of romance. And lots of the gay men publicly reconciling themselves to being 'gay-realistic' may well be crying themselves to sleep in their pillow on their partner's 'away' nights.

174

@163. Bi. Apropos 'Stand by Your Man', a song about standing by a cheating husband, what's the rock/country/bluegrass classic about a woman getting a little on the side? Anyone?

175

Quick update on the situation -
My friend responded civilly, which was a nice surprise. But she's keeping on, because her parents made each other unhappy, and sometimes, in this crazy world, you have to take a chance on love. And you can go bankrupt WITHOUT it being from a love-scam artist!
I swear.
One of the things that leapt out at me from the Atlantic article, well, 2 of them -
The guy in the article was forever making up sad/tragic situations involving himself, his family, and his dog. One of the red flags in my friend's situation was her relating to me how this guy had had a really hard life, had overcome many challenges...which apparently he disclosed during their first week together in Vegas. Not crazy, but made a bell ring.
These scammers go after intelligent women - doctors, lawyers, like that, both because people smart in one realm often think they're smart in all realms, and they're also more embarrassed to admit when they've been had. As the Atlantic article says, the lonely middle-ager who falls for Disney-style romance is a punchline, lots of the time.
Anyway, shot my shot and feel better. Reckon we'll see, I'll just pretend it's Sea Monkeys or an ant farm.

176

Kudos to the decent folk who left constructive messages for the LW. Up with compassion and decency.

As a mental health professional of many years, I suspect that this is a window into understanding what’s up with LW, as another commenter mentioned:

https://pro.psychcentral.com/recovery-expert/2015/10/what-is-trauma-bonding/

177

I've been there, on a much milder level. I stayed with somebody longer than I should have, because I was in love with the illusion. I knew/suspected that it was an illusion, but it was too sudden a shift to make to go from being deeply in love to cutting that person out of my life.

Here's the first thing I did. I didn't decide to leave him. But I made peace with the fact that I was eventually going to leave him. That was me giving myself time and space to reconcile with the truth. And then, in moments when I was with him, I started to notice the problem behaviours more and more. I started to see through the illusion. Because I didn't pressure myself to make and immediate decision, I was able to analyze the situation and see the cracks in his words. And then, at a certain point, it was just really easy to let go. There was nothing keeping me there. It was just.... really really easy.

This may not work for everybody. If you don't find yourself able to slowly pull away - if you find you keep getting sucked back in, sometimes you just have to sever than connection, while it's still full of nerve endings, even though it will hurt like a mother fucker. If you need to work up the courage to do the deed, do it in writing on one of those many times he's away. Email, facebook messenger, or text. Write it all up. Invite a compassionate friend over, and hit send. Then block everything and change your locks. Marathon some empowering break up movies like Under The Tuscan Sun or First Wives Club.

PS. If you don't want to tell any friends the whole truth, because it's too painful to rehash, you can just tell them that he's a serial cheater and you want to break up.

178

This guy is a sociopath. They have no morals, they are straight up conmen. Nothing he has told you has any validity or truth. No contact is the only way to go. Block him on your phone, all social media, and email accounts. Therapy will be helpful too.


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