I suppose my advice would turn on what the current relationship with the ex is like. Are you still friends? Acquaintances? Or is she out of your life completely? Did you part amicably? Is she on good terms with her ex-stepdad? Is she aware that he's bi (or out of the closet gay)?

Because a relationship with her ex-stepfather is the sort of thing that has a high probability of destroying her relationship with both parties if discovered. Especially since your break-up is still pretty recent. I'm generally on the side of not doing things that carry a reasonably high potential to harm someone else, and I think this qualifies.

There is a way out, and that is for one of you (I think it should be the ex-stepdad) to approach her and pre-clear this. I know she doesn't have any formal claim to either of you, but it's still the respectful thing to do. If ex-stepdad isn't willing to do that, then I think that tells you that NOT having sex with him is the best way to proceed.

Look at it this way: there are tons and tons of hot gay and bisexual daddies out there who would leap at the opportunity to bend you over the sofa. You're not really missing out on anything by foregoing sex with this one and substituting sex with someone else equally hot. This is one of the most common fetishes out there.

So why not find someone to play with who doesn't carry the risk of hurting someone else?

It seems like the ex-stepdad is the one that should really have the concerns/have written the letter. If he still has a relationship with the young woman, if she still sees him as a father figure, having sex with any of her friends would be a gross betrayal, but especially with an ex-partner. That doesn’t sound like good decision making skills on the part of the former step dad so I would say if they are still in each other’s lives to give it a pass. The damage it would do to her if discovered seems greater than the damage to him of finding someone else.

@1 OK on re-reading that was a muddle.

Best course of action: Find yourself another daddy.

Distant runner-up course of action: If you absolutely must be with this guy, have him pre-clear it first. That ensures you won't do anything that alienates your ex from either of you.

Point being, try to be respectful of everyone's feelings as much as you can.

Yeah my first thought was: step dad may not be married to her mother anymore, but they've been divorced for 5 years and she's still introducing him to guys she dates. That means he is a father figure in her life at worst, a trusted friend at best. Either way it souds like her relationship with her step-dad is still very much familial. If she grew up with him it doesn't matter that he is no longer married to her mother - he is a father figure for her. If she does think of him as a father figure and she were to find out, I'm sure it would be upsetting to say the least. It could even potentially irrevocably damage her relationship with her step dad. None of this is really on LW though...

Dan is a little too dismissive of the apparent connection between Stepdad and his Stepdaughter when he tosses off, "He's not her stepfather anymore." I agree with @4, if she's introducing men to him, she still sees him as her Stepfather, whether or not he's divorced from her Mom or not. Hell, she might see him as her actual Father for all we know. That's how I saw my Stepfather.

That said, it's really on Stepdaddy to protect the possible sensabilitites of Stepdaughter, not some random guy who went out with her briefly. If Stepdad has determined the risk of seeing this guy is acceptable, I think LW can accept that and have himself a good time. Just don't blab about it in mixed company.

@4, Good point about his still being a father figure to her. Still, it is unlikely that any details of LADWANTSDAD's activities with her former step dad would ever reach her, so I don't see anything to worry about.

Two words: Woody Allen

Daddy and mom divorced when she was 21. How old was she when they got together? Did they live in the same household? Even if they don't consider themselves family, they're still friends, going out to lunch together and with the new person she's seeing.
I question stepdad's judgment here. That sort of graphic detail shouldn't be the first message, at least wait for a response indicating interest especially given the relationships and timeline.

You’ll all be dead someday. It can’t turn out worse for you thank it did for Woody Allen, right? Just pretend you’re entitled to this and go for it.

It's the LW's job to manage his relationship with his former date.
It's the "daddy's" job to risk-manage his relationship, if any, with his former step daughter.

Woody Allen screwed his step daughter(ish) not her one-time boyfriend. Not at all the same.

These are all adults. This is the responsibility of the daddy not the LW.

As Dan said, wrong, but the right kind of wrong (properly managed). Fucking.Hot.

My erotic response says go for it, sounds like some delicious time ahead. If it does go beyong a few meetings and looks like something more solid might develop, then it could get a bit dicey, and the ex gf would need to be told.

Does that rule about "friends don't date friends' exes" still exist? I'm sure it got/ gets violated all the time and everything's fine as long as both parties are able to keep quiet about it.

Everything we do as adults carries risks. Think long and hard (and thick) about the possible risks & ramifications that could be involved, and see if you've got the stomach to face them. I'm thinking stuff like her showing up unexpectedly at his house and walking in on the two of you while you're bent over the sofa (because of course she has a key). Or him not keeping quiet about it (who knew that mirror had a camera behind it?).

I'm not saying don't do it; just because your dick wants you to say yes doesn't mean you should say no. But try to think about it with your actual brain first.

Kudos to Dan for updating with @4 post
Yeah, it’s on stepdad to protect former GF
You are a good person for questioning the situation.
You’d be a great person for not trusting stepdad to make correct decision

This is nothing like the Woody Allen scenario, he got with his own step daughter.
Why should these men assume the woman would be upset if these two got together? If she knows they are both bi, she may have picked up the attraction between them at the meal. She’s a big girl, and this should not really be any of her business.
One imagines her step father has had other lovers since he broke up with her mother, why should this connection really be much different for her? Not her business who her stepdad gets with and she and the LW were not seriously involved. Just make sure she doesn’t hear about it from third sources.

This is a risk/reward scenario. And like all risk calculations, it is a personal one. Does the high probability that you will have a hot sexual encounter with your ex's stepdad make you comfortable with the low(er) probability outcome of hurting your ex and her stepdad if the potential relationship is ever discovered? I recommend truly contemplating how low that probability has to be for you to go forward and whether that low probability can be achieved in this scenario.

Good luck!!

You saw The Rocky Horror Picture Show, and the person you thought was hot was BRAD?!

I thought Kinsey 0 males lusted after Janet, and EVERYONE else lusted after Frank. Brad. shakes head Takes all kinds, I guess. :-)

I'm confused, isn't that Tim Curry? 'Cause Dr Frank N Furter was hot hot SIZZLING HOT! And Brad was zzzzzz cornbred zzzzzzzzz!

It sucks when the forbidden fruit looks so delicious.
I think the ex-stepfather showed incredibly poor judgement here. I'm sympathetic to the lw, because the picture is really scorching, but this has the capacity to really upset a lot of people's lives and relationships and for what--a couple of hot sexual escapades.

I would advise the lw to download the photos and text and wank furiously to them indefinitely. Then find another hot daddy--surely not that difficult. This time, one who wasn't until quite recently the legal stepfather and may still be the emotional father figure of a woman the lw just stopped dating. I mean, the guy meets his still-in-spirit stepdaughter's boyfriend, and propositions him? What good can come of that. Keep it a fantasy and treasure it.

FWIW, Barry Bostwick in a corset, fishnets, and heels has always been an underappreciated component of "Rocky Horror," as far as I'm concerned. And the silly scene where Frank "seduces/assaults" Brad ("do you want Janet to see you . . . like THIS?!") made me squirm in my theater seat every week.

I think the stepfather not just reaching out when he recognized the tattoos but also describing in graphic detail what he wanted to do to LADWANTSDAD... shows poor judgment on his part.

Enough that it makes me wonder if stepdad is boning his former stepdaughter.

So -- LADWANTSDAD, what would you think if you stumbled on evidence that they were having sex?

And after Frankie, I lusted after Columbia.

Look, the stepdad has more to lose here than the LW. If hte LW and the ex have a falling out to the point that she hates the LW, that doesn't really hurt the LW. I'm not saying that is ideal; it's just that the chances of them becoming close friends is probably slim in a culture where people move around a lot and friendships drift apart. The stepdad has much more to lose since he still seems to be a father figure. If he's not worried about it then the LW shouldn't worry about. Fuck away.

Geez Louise, how long does a parent have to be answerable to their children? This woman is twenty six yrs old, she dated the LW for a few weeks. If she doesn’t know her stepdad is bi, then he obviously isn’t that close to her. If she does know, then it probably won’t come as such a big surprise.

@4 I agree, the relationship between the stepdaughter and stepdad is still familial... but the relationship between LADWANTSDAD and the Stepdaughter was never sexual or serious - he doesn't owe her anything - he should be able to date her mom or sister or brother with just as freedom as he briefly dated her and she has no right to complain - her stepdad is gonna fuck SOMEONE, eventually, yah? Or die never having sex again.

Speaking as someone with a few ex-step-parents who I still see occasionally wandering around out there, this may not be that big of a deal. It really depends on how close ex-gf actually is to ex-stepdad (I don’t think you can imply very much from a single lunch together at a restaurant; that could mean anything from “I still think of him as my dad” to “cool, a financially solvent adult I know is in town, and offered to buy me & the guy I’m dating some food”). If she’s not especially close to him, and/or wasn’t super deep into the LW, she probably wouldn’t care; she may even be supportive of the whole thing, depending on her personality.

I’d say, unless she introduced and interacted with the guy as if he were her actual dad, LW should just go for it. They’re hooking up, not getting married, and there’s no reason for this to be weird unless he overthinks it.

Lavagirl: haha. That's a great line about how long the parent has to responsible. Line of the day for me.

Thanks surfrat: even if these men have something stronger happen after their hot steamy sex /sometimes I wish I was a bi or gay man/ this young woman will cope. And if she doesn’t, it shows her connection to her stepdad is about her and not about wanting to see him happy and enjoying his life.

Don't assume her relationship with the guy is minor, as folks said. That's not the way to get a pass. But the LW's relationship with her... that is pretty minor, don't you think?

This horndog is surely banging any number of young men whether the LW is in that number or not. Does that bother his stepdaughter? Given his M.O. I would assume she's aware. Is it bad if one of those young men is one she dated for a couple of weeks? I really don't see it.

There is every reason to think that this woman and her stepfather are still close, and absent open knowledge all around, fucking other people in a lover’s family tree is inadvisable. Everyone who thinks this woman will never find out is missing the point. We sometimes need to forgo things we would like to do so as to ensure no one is hurt. Certainly, this is such a case.

However brief the relationship was between LW and this woman, they had sex, and we should operate under the reasonable assumption that she would be very disturbed to think that man with whom she had sex shortly thereafter had sex with her stepfather, and that such knowledge would damage her ongoing relationship with him.

I’m in the “not that big a deal” camp. I don’t believe in calling dibs on human beings. LW is no longer seeing the stepdaughter. He didn’t dump her to pursue her ex-stepdad instead. They only dated briefly. I don’t see any problem here. If the stepdaughter finds out somehow, she may well find it icky. Parental figures’ sex lives tend to register as icky regardless of specifics, and in this case there’s an additional squick factor. But she’s not going to die of “eww, I so did not want to picture that!” Nobody is betraying anybody. Two (presumably) single and (presumably) consenting adults are contemplating fucking. I say go for it.

Well, as Josh Groban sang in 'Crazy ex-girlfriend,' "never bang your ex-boyfriend's dad." I think stepdad counts too. It's just weird.

So we've got: a young woman who introduces men she's only been seeing for a nanosecond to the former husband of her mother (how did this lunch come about? I wonder); a young man who cruises Scruff when he's on a date; and an older guy who hits on his stepdaughter's dates (what's with the "former"; just because they're divorced doesn't mean the relationship between stepdad and stepdaughter is over, which it obviously isn't if she's introducing her dates to him). And the two young people only split a month ago. These three are all boundary challenged, to say the least.

The question I ask is: who would it hurt? And I come down on the side of just go for it. These two young people aren't seeing each other, so she can't dump him for sexting her stepdad. He didn't break her heart, so the worst she'll feel if she finds out is disgust. The stepdad's a perv regardless and will continue to be whether LADWANTSDAD says yes or not. And LADWANTSDAD is only 26; these are exactly the kind of somewhat misguided escapades one should be having in one's 20s. So I say go for it -- and I want to see the photos too!

Something here doesn’t sit right with me. By LW’s description, this man is handsome and fit, a good conversationalist, he’s got a beautiful cock, he’s single, and he’s on Scruff. One tends to think he wouldn’t have too much trouble finding willing candidates to bend over his sofa. But he’s pursuing LW, who was fucking his stepdaughter just last month, and it seems daddy is in close enough contact with his former stepdaughter to know she’s no longer seeing LW. Perhaps there’s an electric connection between daddy and the LW that cannot be explained and must be explored, but I would advise LW to proceed with caution. LW sees that the boundaries here are messy, and I wonder if on some level he questions the judgment and motivations of the man inviting him into this potential landmine. Something in LW’s gut is keeping him out of those heels and off of that sofa, and I would encourage him to continue to investigate that instinct.

@4 and others - No one so far has asked the important question: does the former stepdaughter know her former stepdad is Bi, and is she comfortable with his exploits with young men? She may be completely cool with this, and the former stepdad may know that.

Assuming that she's ignorant of this important part of his life and that she'd be damaged by knowing about it is just wrong - seriously, folks, why are you sounding so much like pop psychologists from the 1980s? It's as least as likely that she and her former stepdad compare notes on young men they see when they're out to dinner together.

Just do it.

But be discrete, man!

One of my fondest memories was a night me, my Mom, my Step Dad (who was half way between my Mom's age and mine) and his good buddy were staying up late partying. I was 18, the guys were late 20's. My Mom (great inadvertent wing man) told a story of her coming home from the hospital with me as a new born and her father's first comment was that I was hung.

Maybe that planted a seed - when my Mom and Step Dad went to bed and I was getting cozy on the hide-a-bed, my step dad's friend popped in the door told me to come out to his camper. I assumed it was to continue getting high-, but as soon as I arrived and made 10 seconds of small talk he said "well what are you waiting for, get your clothes off and get up here!" I was shocked but thrilled, he was a recent divorce with 3 kids. The sex was hot, and I was surprised at his lack of boundaries for a "straight" man. The Coke had made it harder for him to stay hard, but I was 18 and had no problem so happily fucked him with promises he could return the favor. To this day mo Mom and Step Dad have no idea. As I was leaving he mad a halfhearted threat if I told and I laughed. I wasn't intimidated by him, but i'd come out in the 80's and I knew how to be discreet. My advice is go for it! but make sure his step daughter doesn't find out. You don't want to hurt her. The down low factor will make it even hotter.

@35/ECarpenter: “No one so far has asked the important question: does the former stepdaughter know her former stepdad is Bi, and is she comfortable with his exploits with young men?”

I think this has not come up because it is irrelevant. Here, I am with others that her stepfather’s bisexuality is none of this woman’s business, whether she is comfortable with that fact or not. And even if she discusses hot men with her stepfather, that isn’t an invitation for him to fuck a man with whom she has had sex.

'If this man were still her stepfather...': this is monumentally insensitive. What kind of step-parenting, or any parenting, is it if one is not a parent for life?

Many, many gay men come to be in a position in loco parentis with the children of their bi, formerly heterosexually married partners. This is not an unusual experience--not a historically impossibly distant experience, and never will be. For some reason the idea of man in suspenders being bent backwards over a sofa is more current in Dan's mind--but I can assure you the experience of queerness is as much forming lifelong bonds of care with your partner's children.

@1. Corydon. 'Pre-clear...'. Argggh! No! This is about finding out that your ex is having sex with your father. The bi and Daddy themes are red herrings. Would you want to know that an ex was having sex with your father?

As for 'neither breaks her bones nor picks her pocket' ... I'll use that the next DTMFA letter. 'Sure, he prohibits you even meeting your high school bf, and forces you to watch an hour of extreme porn before every time you have sex, but that 'neither breaks your bones nor picks your pocket''.

A relationship which lasted two weeks, how much emotional investment did she have in the LW, and they parted ok, so she wasn’t left pining.
Doesn’t even qualify as an ex. A guy she had a short fling with.

Yes, if the relationship had been long term, it would pose a big problem for this man to bed her step father. It wasn’t, it was a casual fling, of a couple of weeks.
We don’t know how much of a relationship exists between step father and daughter, she may have five step fathers. She may have a biological father she is closest too. We don’t have that info.
We know the step father checked the LW and the woman had broken up, and if he has no issue pursuing a connection to this young man, then he knows better than any of us the status of his relationship with his step daughter.

LADWANTSDAD, which is it, "his sort-of-daughter" or his "Former Stepdaughter"?

Do you mean just that she no longer lives at home? In that case he still is her damn stepfather.

This man divorced her mother five yrs ago, curious2. Not sure why her living at home or not has anything to do with it.

@45 LavaGirl
"This man divorced her mother five yrs ago"

Oops I missed that, thanks LG. Now I see that the LW was not wrong that she was his "Former Stepdaughter".

I keep coming back to the idea that the woman introduced the guy she was seeing to the man who had been her stepdad until he and her mother divorced 5 years ago. She's 26, so that means she was 21 when that marriage broke up, but for all we know, this is the man that raised her all her life, and just because he and her mom divorced, it doesn't mean he doesn't still occupy the same emotional and psychological role in her life that he would if he were her biological father. Why would someone invite a date to meet their father/stepfather/ex-stepfather, if the "father" wasn't fulfilling some type of parental role for them? I don't routinely invite my new partners to meet my parents or really anyone if I don't think there's a potential there. I wouldn't invite my date to meet a former stepparent at all if that former stepparent weren't in my life in some sort of meaningful capacity. If my mother divorced my stepfather and I thought, "well, that's that: he's no longer a part of my life or my family," I wouldn't be in enough contact with him to be in a position to invite him to meet the guy I was dating. It seems clear that he's still providing a fatherly role in this woman's life, and she wanted him to meet the man whom she was dating (casually and recently). And while it may have only lasted a few weeks, and not been a big deal for the lw, the woman may have felt more for him and hoped for more from the relationship--else again, why the lunch?

I don't think it would kill the woman to find out that her ex-stepfather and ex-not-really boyfriend hooked up, but I think it would upset her. I think that sometimes the more important imperative is to try to not do things you think would be hurtful to others. I think the fact that the ex-stepfather would make such a move the day after, and be so graphic in his come-on shows poor judgment. If he's as hot as all that, he should have no shortage of potential young men to dress up and bend over couches. As I'm equally sure the lw could find a different sexy older daddy with a BEAUTIFUL cock to bend him over. As the lw himself says, they live in a big city.

This has all the potential for the fallout that comes when you shit where you eat--and it seems unnecessary. If the lw had felt this was "LOVE" and inevitable--well, maybe. But to potentially cause the kind of hurt that this easily has the capacity to do for a couple of fucks . . . I mean, he can do what he wants, but it's not what I would advise.

Wow, I have an ex stepdad, and I have introduced him to boys that ended up being short term flings. And he is my father figure. I’m trying to imagine those two people hooking up and how I’d feel about it. ... ... I think time is a factor. If it were many years later, and step dad was honest about it, I think it would just produce shudders of discomfort. Like ‘ew, TMI’. If the fling and meeting had recently happened it would destroy a lot of trust. I think time is a major factor here.

If Dad ceased to legally be Stepdad when Ex-Not-Even-Girlfriend was 21, it stands to reason that he was her father figure when she was a teenager. I wonder how old she was when he started hitting on her friends? Creepy if you ask me. But again, that's not LADWANTSDAD's monkey. He should just be aware that this Daddy is a bit creepy, which may or may not bother him.

As for the seeming inappropriateness of the graphic initial message, that jumped out at me too, but may be standard practice on a site like Scruff so I'll leave it to the queer men of the board as to whether it crossed any lines.

Mr Alan - Did you mean "discrete" or "discreet"?

Also, aside from Dr Frank N Furter, the sexiest of the Rocky Horror cast is without a doubt Magenta.

@49: BiDanFan, I'm not talking about the standard practices on sites like Scruff or the norms of the gay or bi/male dating-and-hookup world. I see no reason that the sexuality or gender of any of the participants plays into this or should at all. Make everyone straight, make the participants a man, his new casual girlfriend, and the man's former stepfather who raised him (or any other permutation, as long as we're not sidetracked by the genders/sexual orientations involved) and it doesn't appear appropriate behavior by any standard I can imagine.

I'm talking about going to lunch with the young woman you raised as your daughter, from whose mother you divorced 5 years ago, meeting her new beau, and, even if sensing that this was not to be a permanent or serious relationship, contacting that new beau the next day to graphically proposition him. If that isn't inappropriate behavior, I don't know what qualifies.

And it may or may not bother the lw that this guy's behavior is creepy--which it most certainly is--this isn't about him; it's about the young woman, who I think will be more than a little upset to find out about, if not the actual hookup, at least the timeline, if it ever comes out. And it probably will.

I understand that this is an appealing offer. I understand temptation. But I don't think we should all get to do every damn thing we want any time or way we want, other people's feelings be damned. Surely other opportunities for hot hookups will present themselves to both of these men.

Literally everyone in Rocky Horror except--strangely, Rocky himself--is sexy to me. In different ways. I mean, even, creepily, RiffRaff.

@38 - you're still assuming that the ex step daughter doesn't know this situation is going on, and would be upset to find out. That's not a conclusion you can come to just from the information at hand.

The ex step-dad may have cleared his call with his ex step-daughter before he made it. Or she may have suggested he make the call, if she knew he was horny for her ex boyfriend. The LW doesn't know, so we don't know (the ex-step-dad's "tell me if I've got this wrong" could very easily be just scene setting). Isn't that a question he should ask his potential hot daddy before getting all armchair-psychologist-y?

I know it's difficult for some to think that all women are not necessarily fragile blossoms, vulnerable to damage from any passing breeze. But a lot of younger women, like younger men, don't carry around the same social taboos that wracked their elders. We should take that into account before jumping to assumptions, and ask a few more questions.

Nocute @52: I was thinking of Ankyl @8's comment, though I see a few other commenters including yourself addressed it. And I do think the sexual orientation plays a part. Norms are different on gay hookup sites than in straight space; it's ridiculous to deny this.

Also, Dad didn't contact LAD the day after their breakup; he contacted him a month after: "We parted amicably last month. ... He messaged me the other day." Does this alter your reading of the creep level? I share your instinct that waiting, say, six months is probably better than jumping right in. He also doesn't say for how long they "briefly" dated. Two weeks? Three months? If they've been apart longer than they were together, I see very little issue here from the young woman's perspective. She may be grossed out that her stepdad is a creepy old perv, but he'll be a creepy old perv whether LAD gets in on the action or not. In other words, if anyone needs a smack up the ethics, it's Dad, not LAD, but Dad didn't write in, so why should LAD shoulder the responsibility for his moral dodginess?

@55: Oh, BiDanFan, thanks for the correction: I had gotten the timeline wrong, and it's not as bad as it first sounded to me, and it does sound like the stepdad heard the news of the breakup before he contacted the lw, so he seems a bit less creepy to me now.

I fully agree that it's the ex-stepdad that needs a "smack up the ethics," (great phrase), but you're right, he's not the guy who wrote in. Since the lw is the one asking for advice, he's the one we have to address. The lw obviously has some reservations, and wants to override them based on the attractiveness of the man who propositioned him. I would encourage him to respect those reservations.

It's not like it would be the end of the world if he took the daddy up on the offer. I'm sure the woman wouldn't shrivel up and die--and maybe she's already aware and is already fine with it; we don't know, because the lw either doesn't know or didn't include that information.

But the lw didn't feel entirely comfortable and wanted advice and if he were asking me (which I realize he wasn't), I would advise him to stay out of this particular hornets' nest.
I have seen too many people hurt too many times because someone wanted to get laid by someone--not because there was an inevitable pull towards a real meaningful relationship, but just because of lust. And I don't think that it's worth it or a good idea.
Personally, especially these days, I think it's our duty to try to put more love and respect for others' feelings into the world, rather than act solely selfishly just because we have the opportunity. No doubt I'm an idealist and a naive idiot--no one needs to point that out. But it doesn't seem as though the lw will be damaged if he doesn't go for it, and the fantasy could fuel masturbation sessions for years. Why does everyone assume they are owed every single thing they want in the moment they want it?

If the lw is still in contact with the young woman, he might ask her how she would feel about the hookup.

But again, the fact that the breakup happened months after the lunch and the ex-stepdad only then initiated contact with the lw, suggests that the ex-stepdad is very much in the young woman's life in the role of a father figure.

Which, again, brings me around to "not this guy; find some other hot daddy."

How gendered is the concern for XGF's feelings here? My cosmic vibrations are hinting that this encounter is hotter as a fantasy than it would be if it really happened, but I do wonder if any of those who don't want LW to pursue Steppappa because of XGF's feelings would be so concerned were the person involved XBF instead (assuming everyone in both cases to be bi to keep orientation clashes as far as possible out of factoring)?

To be clear, I started #58 right after posting #50, deleted half of it thanking Mr Savage for putting the V in LVBT, updated my bridge statistics, debated responding to a Youtube comment which I decided against doing, updated the starting positions for my bridge group tomorrow, began a column, made a pot of soup, and then posted #58, crossing with all Ms Cute's posts.

I thank Ms Cute for confirming my idea that, if there were only other person here capable of avoiding jumping on Mr Savage's Men-Are-Pigs Bandwagon, it would be she.

@58: My response is 100% gender and sexual-orientation neutral in that I'd advise the same no matter what configuration of genders or sexualities the participants were.

But I am myself a straight woman and therefore think and react from that perspective, so my concern is itself gendered. It may be that women mind more than men, but it may not be, and I don't think the young woman is a delicate flower in need of protection. But I may have internalized a lot of assumptions and I may be projecting.

And still I cannot change my response to "hey, go for it!" if I think it has the capacity to upset someone (in this case, a presumed-straight woman). Maybe men never get hurt by stuff like this. I speak from my perspective and I admit that most of the scenarios I am remembering or envisioning involve the woman as being the hurt party.

Fortunately for him, the lw didn't ask me, a straight woman; he asked a gay man, who told him to go for it.

Venn @58, I actually think it would be MORE creepy if this were LAD's ex-boyfriend rather than his ex-girlfriend. Perhaps because there will probably be little overlap over the course of their lifetimes between people with whom XGF and her stepdad experience mutual attraction, but potentially much, much more so if both were male. The idea of an older queer man proceeding through life picking over the remains of his stepson's exes like a vulture is far more off-putting to me than this situation, where LAD just happens to be bi.

If there is any bias in my view it is due to the age of the LW. If LAD were 36 writing in, I'd be more inclined to side with Nocute in a "you're older, you should have better judgment" attitude. But LAD isn't older; he isn't, and shouldn't be expected to be, the wiser one here. This is, indeed, potentially a messy mistake, but how are young people going to learn except by making mistakes? At least it will have been a hot mistake with little collateral damage. If all goes well, he's got some treasured memories; if it doesn't, it's not, as even Nocute says, the end of the world for any of them.

@61: BiDanFan, can't young people learn without making messy mistakes?
Do you not believe that lessons can be learned through instruction? Must one always make a mess of something to get it?

How much should age have to do with it; why shouldn't the young lw be assumed to be capable of having concern for others' feelings or for being able to anticipate that this might result in an estrangement between a woman and her father figure? Additionally, the lw is 26, not a child, but a full grown adult, even if he is younger than the older man seemingly in the grip of his sexual impulses. Age doesn't always equal maturity.

I think the fact that the lw is hesitating and writing in shows he is concerned that this would be a messy mistake, and it wouldn't hurt him for Dan to confirm that it indeed has that potential.

I, too, would like to think that the older man here had better judgment, but he clearly doesn't. Some people never learn to not behave selfishly 100% of the time.

Actually, come to think of it, what does it matter what the norms of gay culture are in respect to this scenario? Not everyone in it is a gay man.
If this was a trio of gay men, then alright, I could see recusing myself and saying, "the ways of this people are different from my ways and I shall not seek to imposition my ways on them."

But that's not the case. Like it or not, gender-stereotyped or not, there is woman--presumed to be straight, though she could be bi--in this mix and it's she that is the one most likely to get the fallout.

It will have been HER father figure that fucked HER ex-boyfriend, whom he propositioned as soon as he heard about the breakup. How could that not affect her ongoing relationship with him? By rights, she will be more angry at her former stepfather, and the lw can just waltz away with his memories of some hot sex, leaving a rift between two somehow-still-family members who will have to deal with this. Even if the former stepfather isn't fulfilling a parental role in the young woman's life at the moment, his memory will be forever tarnished for her. He's clearly still a big part of her life. We only have one (or a few) parental figures. I appreciate that people get weird about not wanting to regard their parents as sexual beings, and I agree that parents have the right to have their own sex lives, but really, of all the people in this big city, the lw just HAS to be the toy of the man his recent ex looks to as her father figure? Personally, if I was in the lw's position and someone pointed this out to me, I'd opt out. I'd want nothing to do with the kind of drama this could easily inspire.

Now, maybe I'm overreacting and it wouldn't register as that big a deal, but SO WHAT? We can't ever know how things will turn out, but we can use our best judgment and make our best guesses and we can decide that some hookups aren't worth the trouble they have the potential to cause to others. Is it going to kill these two men to forgo this hookup?

@63 Why not ask the assumed father figure if a) he is in fact a father figure to his former step daughter b) if his former step-daughter knew about and was ok with his contacting her ex-short-fling - did he clear it with her first.

Not all bi men are on the down low, not all young women feel threatened if anyone they know has sex with someone they used to have sex with.

@54/ECarpenter: LOL! Seriously, we all have blind spots that are worth reassessing, but it’s a very safe assumption that few people would be ok knowing that shortly after having sex with someone, our parent had sex with that same person. You may be ok knowing that you and your parent shared a sex partner, or you might feel fine having sex with your child’s sex partner, but for the overwhelming majority of people this situation would not be ok.

I would note that far more time would make it more palatable, but still far from wholly acceptable.

And I’m with nocute, this isn’t about the genders or sexual orientations of the players, so please don’t try to make that the issue.

This young woman is not involved in anyway with the sex these two men want to have with each other. How much power do you wowsers want to give someone who fucked the LW a couple of times? She Will Survive.
I can’t believe some of you are so concerned with a little hurt or whatever she might feel.
Go for it LW, suddenly many here have found their Puritan streak.

Of course the orientation plays a part, and so is the fact that grown people are not wistful little flowers, the poor girl getting all hurt because her step dad, who she may or not be close to.. we don’t know that.. wants to fuck a man she also had sex with, maybe once or twice. I mean the horror and shock will send her straight to the therapist’s couch.

If my mother's ex wanted to fuck one of my exes, I'd say, "ewww" but hey, you're all adults and have the right to fuck up your life however you want. Just don't drag me into it. I'm also with the camp that says "kids nowdays" have a more liberal view of sex, and even if she doesn't, this is just one more curveball life has a way of throwing you. You gotta learn how to deal with that shit. Anyway, not LW's responsibility.

I don’t think all men are pigs Mr Venn and I’ve never gotten the feeling Dan does either. What I see with gay men who write in is they don’t seem to get as caught up in convoluted what ifs like straights sometimes do. What if this young woman is so traumatised? What if her relationship with her step dad is irreparable damaged?
It’s none of her business who her step or real father has sex with. She might not like his choices, she may feel slightly offended one of his lovers was briefly her lover, she may never speak to him again. She also may have seen the spark pass between them at lunch and it comes as no surprise to her. What if’s till the cows come home.

Nocute @62: "BiDanFan, can't young people learn without making messy mistakes?"
Sure, but it's nowhere near as effective, nor as much fun.
"Do you not believe that lessons can be learned through instruction? Must one always make a mess of something to get it?"
I don't know what sort of twentysomething you were, but I was the kind of twentysomething that, if an older person tried to "instruct" me not to do something, that would just make me want to do it more, to find out what they were so het up about.
You seem convinced that this is inevitably going to turn out to be a mess. I disagree. There's a very good chance that XGF would never find out, or that if she did, her reaction would be somewhere between mild disgust and amusement. And that if LAD doesn't take this opportunity, he'll end up forever kicking himself, and resenting XGF, who didn't even do anything.
We've come to the point in the discussion where the more you clutch your pearls, the more I want to egg LAD on and vice versa, so let's just say we disagree. If he's reading these comments, hopefully he will take both our opinions on board -- or decide that we're irrelevant middle-aged women so what do we know?

@66 "I can’t believe some of you are so concerned with a little hurt or whatever she might feel."

Well, some of us do actually try to avoiding hurting other people if possible. But the more concerning point here is that this could permanently damage her relationship with her father, while the LW would waltz off unaffected. And that's something he's right to be concerned about.

@65 Many people here are assuming that she feels like he's her parent, and has all those parent child taboos in place, but from the original letter all we know is that he used to be married to her mom and that the former step daughter hangs out with him sometimes.

All I'm saying is that there are some further questions to ask. Most people here are making assumptions that aren't warranted with the limited info on hand. Is he really like a parent to her? She may have had either a friendly or a big brother or an uncle kind of relationship with him, not a parent relationship. Does she know he's bi? He may always have been open about that while he was married to her mom. Does she gossip with him about his escapades with young men, and does she find that an interest in young men is something they have in common? Did he clear his contact with her brief ex-boyfriend with her beforehand?

There are important unknowns here that most commenters are just assuming they know, which I find disappointing. I'm not claiming to know the answers, I'm just saying the LW should ask the questions if he's concerned about his former gf's reaction.

Fair point @71, except her getting hurt here is her problem to sort because it’s none of her concern who other adults have sex with. The step father seems to be ok with it all so why do any of you assume he’s such a dog he has no understanding of his relationship with his step daughter? He made the move on the LW, he knows how his story works.

If this young woman’s relationship to her mother’s ex husband, her step father, is so flimsy this would cause permanent damage to the relationship between her and step dad; it wasn’t that solid to begin with.

Ven: the latter, of course. Thanks for the catch!

What if LW's ex introduced him to Daddy, and the two of them fell into sweet, unavoidable love? Everyone would gush. It's only the sexiness of the situation that makes it problematic. LW's ex need never know about the stockings.

Just F*ck him, a week from now it won't even matter.

Nocute is right in her instincts, and right that the genders and sexual orientations are irrelevant. The people saying 'go for it!' need to think about how they'd be affected by learning that their father was having sex with an ex.

It’s iniquitous to discuss 'degrees of fatherhood'. I very much doubt that both fathers of gay male couples have a genetic relationship to their offspring. Now imagine Dan and Terry's child dying in a road accident, and someone saying, 'well, he wasn't biologically your son'. No. Bad remark.

In saying 'no' to the Daddy/son sex, I'm saying nothing about the thought-processes of the stepfather who proposed it, or the LW who entertained the idea. The stepfather could be able to 'fuck and forget'. It’s gotten under the LW's skin already, though, such that he couldn't, just in the sense that the daddy is his ex's father.

The issue is personal to me in that the stepfather is /precisely/ the sort of man I'm attracted to, and have had all my serious relationships with, while (without wanting to say anything identifying) I would consider myself the stepfather, father, lifelong adult supporter and carer of a former partner's child. Former partner, but not former child.

A couple of things popped out at me. When the lunch happened, I'm not sure whether LW and GF were having sex yet or whether it was shortly after they'd started dating. And we don't know HOW it came about that the three had lunch together. If she was treating ex-stepdad as a father figure, it seems precipitous for her to be introducing LW to ex-stepdad (for approval?) so early.

Another thing: LW is on a semi-date with GF but still makes time to check out Scruff in the washroom. ::rolls eyes::

Even though both men seem to be projecting immature behaviour, I wouldn't counsel LW to not do it. Find out first whether ex-GF has a key to ex-stepdad's place. If she does, then LW will just have to invite NewHotDaddy over to his place and find a different fantasy to bring to life. If the hookups continue, then perhaps the stockings and heels can be something they can do on a weekend away together.

The 'don't suppose women are delicate flowers' line is BS. 'Ah, if Oedipus had killed his mother and fucked his father, he'd maybe have been able to get over it.... Less of a biggie'. Some prohibitions may be universal.

I would doubt the LW knows how significant a figure the stepfather is in his ex-fling's life. If he knew that e.g. 'technically he's her former stepfather. But he was the second man her mother married after she broke up with her father; he got together with her mother when my ex was 18 and broke up when she was 21, and she doesn't see him as a father-figure' ... if he knew that, he would likely say. What if her stepfather is attracted to him partly on account of the boundary violation? Possibly the risk of his ex finding out increases. Is this a good situation to be getting into? There's a greater danger of doing harm.

As for the norms of gay culture, they stand to one side of the issue of fucking your children's exes.

The scruff message is not unusual; and the reply could be 1) 'coming over'; 2) 'here's what I'd like to do to you'; 3) 'I need to think about it', and 4) 'not interested'. The most or only vexatious one is 2) if no action is forthcoming. The LW could get back with a version of the last, 'no, not with the father-figure of an ex', and, based on my knowledge of gay culture, I'd say the matter would drop like a stone.

I haven't read all 81 comments, but I'm calling fake. They only dated a couple of weeks, but she invited him to lunch with her former stepdad? Who just happens to be a picture perfect bi daddy? And LW just happens to be a bi guy too? And LW was checking out Scruff in the bathroom (while he was on a date) at the very same time the former stepdad was checking out Scruff, presumably while sitting at the table with his former stepdaughter? And the stepdad messages him a few months later about it, including very explicit sexy cross-dressing scenarios and dick pics without further encouragement? Nah.

I'm going to ignore for a moment the feelings of the LW's ex, as people above are already taking good care of those. I am going to ask: what is it that makes this letter so fucking hot?

I will venture that it's not only the idea of one handsome, fit, masculine, friendly but authoritative daddy bending a youngster in high heels and stockings over his sofa - as hot as that might be. What raises my pulse here is the idea of the two finding each other's profile on Scruff while on a family lunch. Can you imagine their faces, their exchanged looks, their silent complicity, after the LW came back from the restroom? Seeing the nice family guy you're having a cosy lunch with transformed into an attractive sexual being and realising he is feeling similarly bothered? Staying in the roles of the nice boyfriend and the nice stepdad while undressing each other mentally? Literally seducing each other while keeping the appearances of two conventional hetero men just getting along splendidly?

I don't think this is a case of two guys who happen to be attracted to each other unlucky to have met in unpractical life circumstances. I think it is precisely because they met in the roles of nice boyfriend and nice stepdad - and were forced to remain in those roles - that their attraction became so hot. Unwittingly, the girlfriend became a sexual prop by creating the cosy family environment that made their attraction forbidden. For her piece of mind, I hope she never finds out; otherwise, I don't think they would be doing anything wrong (my objectivity is not clouded at all by the hotness of this situation).

More than the pictures, I would appreciate a description of what was going through their minds during that lunch. And a copy of their recent messages.

Of course the orientations matter. If the straight gf had introduced her bi casual fling to her straight step dad: nothing would have happened between the men. / That was a really inappropriate example Harriet @78.
I doubt Dan or Terry have ever thought of themselves as step fathers. They are fathers./
We don’t know how significant her relationship is with her step father and why does it matter? She was with LW for a few weeks, not months, not years. And if the step father is ok with how his life runs, how his relationship with his step daughter goes, then why should any of us or the LW second guess this man’s integrity.

You’re right Plural, it is damn hot and I’m wondering if this wave of deep concern about the poor girls feelings is nothing but jealousy.

Or is it envy. One of the two.

Ms Lava - "Men are pigs." Direct quote. Appeared at least a dozen times. Do you not believe it to be a sincere sentiment? The alternative would be that it's only invoked as a sellout point to please the punters.

Ms Fan - I agree that a parental figure's sex life is not only made worse when it's with people one's own age, but even more so when it's with people of one's own gender. If LW were female, it would seem to really raise the potential squick factor for XGF. But you weren't on Team Spare-Her-Feelings.

I did think, however, that some of those on that team were falling for the threat of Female Tears, which must be Avoided At All Cost.

Seeing as the most cynical perspective is usually correct, I agree with those who think the ex-GF and ex-stepdad are fucking. So go for it.

Oh Mr Venn, I don’t think Dan means they really are pigs and yes, he’s covers himself. He’s a Libra and they don’t like arguments, being air signs. Hence he keeps the peace. And to some of us, esp some cis women, it does look like some men gorge themselves a bit, sexually. Hence the pig reference. Lucky them is what I say. And even as parents do gay men have the same issues as straight ones? Never hear a peep from sexually frustrated gay parents thru letters. So how do they sort it?

Fresh @89, I think that’s a really gross thing to say. The guy checked if the liaison was over. You want the girl to sign off on it, you guys.
Thank you Mr Venn, @88. Like I said above, don’t treat this woman like some fragile flower. Women can’t have it both ways. Wanting their own sexual freedoms and then crying foul when somebody else’s sexual freedom confronts their idea of what the boundaries should be. And none of us know how this young woman might respond.
Projection Projection Projection.
Enjoy LW.

What matters is the degree to which the guy's ex sees her 'stepfather / former stepfather / father / that dude briefly married to her mother while she was living with her actual father' as a father-figure. (We don't know which is the case). The sexual orientations don't matter, as I see it. My desires run to the bisexual; my father was home-breakingly promiscuous, and I can easily imagine him fucking men as well as women. How I would feel, in fantasy or projection, about his fucking a male or female I slept with is just the same.

None of the parents who have thought 'go for it!' have come out and said, 'I would readily have sex with a child's ex'. Perhaps this is because they wouldn’t.

Harriet @78: "The people saying 'go for it!' need to think about how they'd be affected by learning that their father was having sex with an ex."

My sister once had sex with my future ex-husband while we were broken up. I thought it was hilarious.

Helenka @79: Snap (see my comment @33).

Plural @83: LAD says that Dad recognised him from his Scruff profile, due to his tattoos, but not that he recognised Dad. It could be that Dad's message from "the other day" led with "I saw you on Scruff while we were at lunch..." Or, yeah, that does sound like an incredible coincidence. My fake-o-meter is now going off too. Darn, I guess that means no photos.

Also, my bad: I missed the "couple of weeks" in the letter. This means LAD and XGF have in fact been broken up longer than they were together, and XGF really has zero claim to hurt feelings over this.

@94. Bi. 'Hilarious'! That wouldn't be most people's reaction.... Did she always want to have sex with him?

I have 'daddy issues', I know. But I think there is a very broad human value in the norm 'you don't have sex with your children's lovers or exes'.

Harriet @96: Oh no... it was a simple, drunken romp which neither had planned nor particularly wanted to repeat, which I guess goes some way toward my reaction. We were all very young at the time, I don't think my sister was even 20. Chalk it up to hormones. Many years later my sister took me aside and said she'd always regretted this and carried the guilt around with her, while I admitted I had completely forgotten about it. So I think people are wildly overestimating how something like what LAD contemplates would affect an ex of just two weeks. If their relationship had been in any way significant, that would be a different story.

@97. Bi. I would have been scarred deeply by my father having sex with someone I had even brought back home as a friend or date. It would have played into my sense that he had sex thoughtlessly and painlessly--to him; his philandering was obviously painful to my mother--and that I didn't or couldn't, because I was a more introverted, pained, queerer person.

Also he encouraged me to fuck round when I was a teen, in a way that was obscene--and homophobic (fuck whom you like, but don't be fucked). I think many queer people remember their parents as sexually repressive authority-figures. You don't know how lucky you are, I always think.

Harriet @98: It sounds like your relationship with your father was such that you wouldn't have introduced a partner of just two weeks to him in the first place, correct? So there you go. XGF is not you, nor is she me, and as Lava says, "what ifs until the cows come home."

You may only think that I am lucky because you know your own full familial history but you don't know mine. Add me to the list of queer people with a "sexually repressive authority figure" as a parent. My mother snooped through my things when I was 17, discovered I'd been having sex with a couple of the guys I'd been dating, called me a whore and threw me out of the house. There's a shoe for you to walk a mile in before deciding how lucky I am. (But be assured, I am very much aware of the ways in which I am lucky, along with those in which I am not.)

@99. Oh, Bi, I wasn't saying you were personally lucky.... How could I know your story? I'm sorry your mother threw you out the house. All I meant was that queer people can be left with a legacy of trauma or hurt without their parents having been throw-them-out-the-house homophobic (or sexually repressive). It can seem as if the standard experience in America is for gays to go through the fire in adolescence--burnt by the rejection of their family--to find themselves, triumphantly, in adulthood. This can make things seem simpler than they are. There are more complicated stories, too--things we maybe never get over.

I don't know what the LW should do--because I don't know how far his ex sees her stepfather as her father. But (my horrified reaction to Dan's advice put to one side) I still think the politics of his encouragement wretched. He has written a book, for heaven's sake--rightly and creditably written a book--normalizing gay men as parents. Not as sybarites, the fancy-free, 'irresponsible', but as invested in caregiving and non-erotic, different-generations relationships as straights. So now he's saying gays only do that as parents, never stepparents? The historical experience of gay men has been to find themselves caught up in childrearing willy-nilly, as uncles, the partners of formerly-married biological fathers, etc., for far longer than it has to be allowed to adopt.

The politics of his answer were almost as politically obtuse as ITMFA, but that's a whole other story.

Definitely the most interesting SLLOTD in awhile, cheers. A true dilemma (with many hotly debated pros and cons) appeals to most, I think.