T H E R A P Y

Good god.

that's a lot of words

When you grow up in an environment of oppressive neglect, your experience of self gets destroyed, and the only way you learn to assert yourself is by rejecting things in your life and subjecting yourself to extreme physical sensation.

That is what it sounds like LW is doing. She has to keep rejecting and seeking. If so, I don’t have an answer for her, other than to find other people who are seeking in the same way and develop bonds with them. Maybe, in time, you won’t feel the need to feel so alone.

BOA should also consider that this young man from another country may be interested in more than sex, in part, because a commitment can come with immigration benefits. I am not saying that he's using her, but that can sweeten the deal for some.

I make this statement as someone who will shortly marry my partner from another country (which comes with immigration benefits for him) and as an immigrantion paralegal. I'm not anti-immigration at all! Just think she should consider this possibility in addition to all Dan said.

Nailed it harder than husband #1, Dan.

Excellent answer, Dan! Is there a Pulitzer for advice? I nominate this column.

This poor woman. Sounds like she has only been with two men her entire life, which explains why her letter sounds more like it was written by a 19-year-old than a 30-year-old. BOA, you're not a "monster" for wanting to have more than two sex partners in your entire life. And forget your programming: You CAN have your cake and eat it. You may have grown up thinking that monogamy was the only way to live, but it's not. Many poly people are like you -- only occasionally attracted to people outside of their primary relationship. It's a myth to think that we just want to fuck everyone. Back to you, your husband has given you his blessing to have this fling, so have it! It could help you learn things about yourself that you never had the opportunity to learn. (And things about other people, since you've only been involved with two.) But yes -- therapy would be a very good thing for you, as you're so confused about who you are and what you want.

Also, Husband #1 is why women fake orgasms. Just saying. And you ARE "coming during sex" with Husband #2. You're with him, he's getting you off, you're coming during sex, and it's 100% normal to come this way during partnered sex.

The only thing Dan didn't mention is: What does Husband want in return for granting you this wish? If he truly only wants to see you have a fun adventure of the sort you missed out on when younger, your husband is 100% a keeper. Unless you do decide that what you really need is to be on your own, live your life, discover who you are. If you picked your signoff, maybe you already know that this is what you need. Good luck.

Husband #1 probably considers himself a
superior lover because he “won’t quit until she comes.” To be fair to him, sounds like he was just a teenager himself when they got together and he probably didn’t know any better, but ouch. That’s how you give women bladder infections, not orgasms. That out of the way, this poor girl needs about five years of therapy to help figure out what she even wants, much less how to go about getting it without blowing up one life after another. Good luck!

No wonder Dan too a few weeks off. It probably took him that long to read this letter and make some sensible suggestions.

I won't say that all relationships that start off as international blind dates are suspect, but if BOA reads her own letter, I think she will see that rather than starting an extramarital adventure, she would be better off getting some intensive therapy to unpack all of her many issues. At the same time, she might consider getting her own apartment near her husband to test out living independently. This could be especially effective if her husband is willing to give her some degree of sexual freedom. Such an arrangement wouldn't preclude BOA from seeing her husband often if she wanted, but it would clarify whether she wants in or out of this marriage in a safer, more effective, and less disruptive manner.

Therapy.

Also, LW should watch out for when her crush from another country asks her for money.

Also, LW should video chat with her crush from another country before traveling there.

Also, LW should make sure she has the means to get home on her own and have her own place to stay in the other country before traveling there.

Also also, LW should not go to another country where adultery is illegal.

LW shouldn’t go anywhere to meet new lover/s. I was about to make some funny remarks like what a wonderful way it is to start the new year knowing there are people out there way more fucked up then myself.
Yet I find LW’s situation to be very sad. The way she was brought up, her low self-esteem, her unrealistic hopes of finding her true love in the form of some young dude from Poland who is likely to have totally different expectations and agenda.
As the Quentin Crisp character announced in The Naked Civil Servant, “There is no tall dark man.” Even more so when we’re talking Poland, at least in terms of darkness, which admittedly I just made up.

There's a Zora Neale Hurston quote that I've always found quite meaningful - perhaps LW could identify: "Ships at a distance have every man's wish on board. For some they come in with the tide. For others they sail forever on the horizon, never out of sight, never landing until the Watcher turns his eyes away in resignation, his dreams mocked to death by Time."

"I have some therts."

What's a 'thert'?
(That should have been theory, not thert, yes?)

So much to unpack!
As many religions (subliminally) say: "Pack your bags, we're going on a Guilt Trip!"
(But oddly they /never/ help you unpack when the trip is over....)
(Is the trip ever over..?)

Therapy is a great idea, for sure.

Biggie @9: Yes, very good points.
Mike @12: I read that as "thoughts," but spelled that way... I don't know why. Echoing the spelling of "ermagherd", perhaps? Dan? Is there a "therts" meme that we're missing somewhere?
At least this couple don't have children, so the collateral damage will be minimised.

@14 I think we are the collateral damage.

Biggie @9 nailed it. The reason she has to leave her husband is the cash she sent the guy.

The LW needs to read about Terry McMillan, the writer of How Stella Got Her Groove Back. That work was autobiographical...except that the much young Jamaican man she married in real life turned out to be a gay guy using her for an immigration scam.

As Christopher Hitchens aptly put it:
"Religion Poisons EVERYTHING"

Therts -- perhaps while sitting on the terlet?

L-dub, you're a wreck! And it's no surprise given the life you've lived. You need to get your shit together, though. Come to an understanding of what happened to you, what it's done to you, what you want to change about yourself, what you can change about yourself, and most importantly how you want to interact with the people in your life in light of your new understandings. Therapy? Sure. But introspection, lots of reading, journaling, contemplating and some friends (but not too much friends if you want to keep them) can do it too.

As far as being worried about being a bad person, that's about your impact on others. Sometimes nothing can be done. People will be hurt. Sounds like you're family fits in that bucket. Sometimes, you are hurting other people who don't deserve it just to act out your insecurities. Sounds like your husband fits in that bucket. Gotta figure out where those lines are drawn. For people like us, people with crazy oppressive families/backgrounds that's really hard to do. But it's the big problem to solve.

Good luck, L-dub! It's a long hard road but it's one you gotta take!

Why are we giving her a pass for a relatively normal Christian upbringing? Her experience is a common one for what, 100 million Americans? Just because almost all of us live in big, secular cities where churchgoing is rare, doesn't mean it's rare by American standards - "Urban White Liberal" [you'll find a picture in the dictionary next to "99% of Dan Savage's Audience"] is basically the only segment of America where church attendance is unusual. Ask your black and latino friends (if you have em) about church growing up. Somehow they ended up only like 5% as fucked up as this LW is.

Anywho, there isn't really ever any evidence that she had an upbringing any different than tons and tons and tons of other Americans

@22 yes and many millions of Christian Americans are kind of messed in the head around sex, especially the ones who married young. It's not unusual. Not limited to believing Christians either of course.

(A "pass"? Why is a "pass" even a thing here, you're frustrated we're not judging her harder?)

This letter should be a case study of the intellectual and emotional damage caused by religiosity.

@24 is correct. The cognitive dissonance required to keep believing in a thing which is not true and which is telling you that you are bad and sinful must be really hard on people.

Sportlandia, why have you assumed LW is white?

You would be better off at therapy LW, as has already been suggested.
What are you so angry about Sportlandia.
This young woman is obviously not in a good and sane way, and you crap on. Gf been giving you a hard time or something?

If LW follows SublimeAfterglow’s excellent advice @8, I’d like to suggest the following thought: It is fine and natural to feel love for more than one partner at the same time. Feeling passion or love for a fling does not mean you are meant to be together and you should throw away your life to start again.

You say you want to grow old with your husband LW, yet you are contemplating going to another country to meet up with some dude you’ve never met? You must have lots of money to throw around. And why are you talking to random men online anyway.
I agree with you CMD @10.. and you’re not fucked up: this letter is sad. Why would this young woman sacrifice such a good life, or risk it, unless it’s just another way to inflict punishment on herself. Going to church three times a week. That religious stuff is deep inside and only thru some form of therapy, and asap, will she be able to untangle her story.

BOA, you and a guy in another country that you're never even seen are in love? Dear heart, that sounds nuts to me. Please get therapy.

"I think I’m a monster."

Oh c'mon, you're not a "monster". But you have issues I won't even speculate about. Life and being healthy is about growth, so please work on yourself with the help of a really good therapist. (Honestly everyone should see a therapist, no one more so than those who are most opposed to doing so.)

"Maybe being alone isn't something you fear, BOA, but something you want."

I don't know if Dan is right, but it would've been great advice to get yourself more together before you started having relationships. Maybe with therapy you'll decide you do want to be alone for a while, but since you're married now I certainly won't suggest it.

"you're at risk of subconsciously rounding every fleeting infatuation up to "deep feelings" in order to avoid feeling like a "bad girl""

This sounds entirely plausible too.

A lot of good advice, and Dan's answer is excellent. Her history of cutting and self-punishment is a real red flag. She's connecting the right dots - get into therapy, LW, and get some help, guidance and support for why you feel the urge to punish yourself, and how your current dilemma relates to that pattern. It would be good to re-evaluate your own priorities and values with the support of an outside perspective. It sounds like you still feel some closeness to your own family, and that could be re-enforcing that self-punishment thing. Wishing you all the best.

Dan u get a gold medal for this one, dang.

@23 yes I am bothered that she's not being judged as harshly as I would be judged for the same behavior. Wouldn't you?

@26 I haven't assumed LW is white, I've assumed almost all Dan's readers are (sidenote: a few weeks back Dan asked his black podcast listeners to call in with feedback on some issue, the only call he actually played about it was from a white woman - who didn't think it was right for black listeners to give feedback. Something tells me it was slim pickings)

@27 yes, I'm annoyed that everyone is making excuses for her behavior. She's thirty, not thirteen.

Dear LW: SLOW DOWN! Take a moment and take a deep breath. Dan's answer was very good, as far as it went, which didn't even unpack some tidbits that hint at more that needs to be untangled.

This unpacking is best done with a very good therapist.

For instance, "I grew up going to church 2-3 times a week until I was 21, when I cheated on and left my Christian husband, a man I started dating when I was 16 years old (right after my mom died). No one would have ever thought I would be capable of such cruelty, especially not me."
For one thing, you were a teenager reeling from your mother's death when you started dating the man who would become husband #1--that's significant.
And while it was perhaps cruel to cheat on your husband (certainly not a cool thing to do), it sounds like you're really focused on creating a sense of identity around being cruel. You call yourself a monster; you have a history of self-punishment.

In reality, your first husband is okay now: he survived and thrived. Your second husband sounds understanding.

I think this is more interesting: you say that "I wasn't ever physically attracted to either of my husbands." This needs real unpacking. Sometimes, once the initial first fizz wears off and the real-life irritations creep into a relationship, and especially if some new shiny thing comes along, it's easy to tell ourselves that we were never really attracted to our long-term partner. If that's the case, it is a cause for slowing down. But sometimes, that is the case: people partner with people to whom they aren't really physically attracted. It happens. And then they come across someone who turns them on and it's like a bomb goes off.

I get it, lw. Your 30. You don't want passion to pass you by. You love your husband but you want to try something different and you feel like an ungrateful person who hurts those she loves. But that's shifting the conversation so that now the focus is on whether you're a good person or not; it doesn't address the issue.

Is your husband really so okay with you having sex with this young man or did he offer this as a way of hoping you'd get something out of your system or because he's scared you're going to leave him and he's trying desperately to keep you. Find out. If he's genuinely not possessive or jealous or insecure and he means it, this may be a good way to learn some things about yourself.

For instance: maybe you get bored of all your partners; maybe you discover that your husband is better in bed than you realized; maybe being poly and maintaining two relationships is what works for you (does your husband want other partners or at least the opportunity and permission to have sex with someone else, too? If so, I hope you're okay with that); maybe one or the other of you realizes that this marriage isn't working for you.

BUT YOU DON'T NEED TO DO ANYTHING RIGHT AWAY. Don't have sex with this guy (yet). Don't cheat on your husband (at all). Don't leave the marriage (maybe; yet.).
You should get into therapy and work through lots of this.

I hope things resolve for you and that someday you write back and tell us that you're feeling better.

@33: I heard two or three calls and at least one of the people identified themselves as black.

I agree that the majority of Dan's audience is white, but only because there are more white people than black people in the country.

I'd bet the LW is white too, and I think Sportlandia is correct about urban white libs being Dan's main audience, though I doubt it's 99%.

The religious upbringing being common, yes, cheating is common too as is divorce as is selfishness as is sexual dissatisfaciton. I dont know how much the correlation is the causation anymore than other things. But several times a week isn't the norm, even in the heartland, even among most POC, for most people under 30. That's extremely religious, unless they were using the church as some sort of childcare (like afterschool programs).

For her first marriage, the obvious problem was trying to marry your highschool sweetheart and then be with them for decades- that rarely works out. The religion might've caused the young marriage, but any number of things could have. Regardless, I think she gets a pass there. She didn't handle that skillfully, but she was barely (if even?) drinking age by the time that marriage ended, so full forgiveness.

The second marriage, the same problem. She went straight from one to another- classic mistake again- which means she would've been around 21 then. Too young again. It's not surprising she's looking about. Sounds like a decent marriage though if you stop the letter before she starts her fantasies about overseas man. But even though youth can excuse the immaturity as she entered the marriage, it doesn't excuse her immaturity now- she's 30, not a child, not being made to go to church, and while it's natural she would have issues around all this, those are no longer understandable excuses to lie to people- especially about life altering stuff like marriage and finances. The "one time fling" "only time I've been tempted" "will stay with me until I die" "fell for really hard and quick" - this is all delusion. She's suffering from the problem of not understanding that things that happen are not the things that will always happen forever. I don't know if this is a common feature of Christian people, but it is delusional and she should seek therapy.

Also as for the current marriage, sounds like they have no kids. If they want to try to make it work out in a more truthful situaiton, that would involve her doing a lot of growing up and probably some allowance for an opening of marriage. Like a lot of poeple, she's gotten married before she explored or understood her sexuality, and it's extra difficult given the baggage. Otherwise, they could split in which case she's advised to be alone for a while and figure herself out. What she has to do is stop thinking every infatuation is love or that normal feelings (like lust for flings) are one time things. This is where she's deluding herself, and so long as she keeps doing that, the marriage and all subsequent relationships are doomed, and she might not get so lucky next time as to throw herself at a decent guy like her first two husbands. Also, stop getting married people! It's not a requirement! You can wait a bit!

Also- no you don't get to have the fling and lie to your husband about it, likewise you will be lying to yourself because you will do it again. Or the guilt will make you tell him or cut yourself. Or the situation will grow and you'll have to admit it later on. And besides, what will you do next tiem you feel this way- which you will. Grow up, it's hard but you have to do it.

The "hurt myself" part of the letter is where things get really troubling- there are some serious issues going on and I think she's avoiding thinking/talking about them.

@6 BiDanFan
The /situation/ with Husband #1 was wrong, but the way you phrased it

"Husband #1 is why women fake orgasms."

implies it was his fault. What she actually said

"When we had sex he wouldn’t finish until I had an orgasm, but sometimes I didn’t want it to go on that long"

leaves it unclear whether she said a word to him (or he to her) to make the situation different. (And having read her letter I suspect she didn't.)(Yes "He was domineering" but that doesn't make a failure to communicate all his fault.)

Given they were both very Christiany and, perhaps both lacked the maturity and sophistication to use their words to make sex together what they both wanted, this is not surprising and probably very common. And very sad. But people aren't mind readers, so I don't think we know enough to blame Husband #1 for any faked orgasms.

Re the orgasms with husband one- they were both kids basically. For a young man to care about his partner's orgasms at all shows that he's got some willingness. His cluelessness about it isn't his fault- what sex ed has he learned otherwise? How did she teach him or communicate otherwise? What did she even know about her own body? Sounds like he just humped all day long and she endured and avoided. No one is going to learn anything in that situation.

I get what BDF means though. Some men see it as an ego thing- they must make you cum this way and will not let sex go until you do. They will "make you orgasm" their way like a challenge. But quite a leap to jump from there to this guy who might've earnestly been doing his best based on his lack of feedback from his partner. And since she does not say that she faked, we can only assume that she had orgasms this way (she even contrasts this with her current husband, better sex, but orgasms LESS during PIV which means she was having them more during PIV with first husband even though it took a long time)- so unless the LW sat him down and communicated with him then she's reinforcing his behavior also. He persists, she cums. If dude's domineering nature meant that he was not receptive to any feedback, then that's why women fake orgasms. Your choice is to endure or fake since the feedback hurts their ego. But I don't see that here (or at least not exclusively) since she seems unable to communicate with her partners more generally and is painfully lacking in self-awareness.

@38 EmmaLiz
"They will "make you orgasm" their way like a challenge."

I hear you (and BiDanFan) that this is f-ed up. If someone tries to communicate with a partner about that and it continues, then DTMFA.

This sort of response from Dan is why I read SL.

"When a person refuses to take "yes" for an answer — you're husband has given you a yes here, BOA, and you're not taking it — it's usually an indication that "yes" wasn't the answer they wanted. So why would you want a "no" instead? Why would you prefer for this to be a choice between your husband and this kid?"

I had a different take on that than Dan - I suspect, if her husband had said "no," the LW would have been relieved that the choice was taken away from her and she wouldn't have to make what she sees as a "damned if you do damned if you don't" decision: either she becomes a CPOS again, or she denies herself the torrid affair with a handsome and exotic stranger. A "no" would give her a genuine out-of-her-hands reason to turn down a physical affair and thus avoid becoming a CPOS: "sorry, I really WANT to, but husband says no, and I don't want to lie to him..." She also wouldn't have to kick herself for passing up on what could have been a once-in-a-lifetime passionate affair, since it was Husband who reined her in, not her. Alternately, if he said no and she did it anyways, she might assume he would divorce her, which would, again, take the choice out of her hands and leave her free to link her life with Internet boyfriend. And then it would be Husband's fault they won't grow old together, not hers.

I'm not trying to say she's a bad person in trying to make Husband her moral gatekeeper or anything, just that that's the kind of reasoning I can see falling in line with LW's background. I could be totally wrong, of course. But I grew up in a very sexually-repressive culture myself and thought that way and wondered why I played such messed up games. Nancy Friday's book My Secret Garden did a lot to help me understand why I thought the way I did. I do agree with Dan, though, that what the LW is really looking for is an escape, and since her husband is giving her his blessing, perhaps she should let herself take it this time without self-flagellating.

Is this letter for real? "I wasn't ever physically attracted to either of my husbands" WTF

For the enjoyment of Ms Cute, it's highly tempting to make a parody of Henry Tilney's statement about its being undeniable that little boys and girls should be tormented.

I agree with almost all the analysis of #34, but cannot get around, "My current husband is a sure thing." Even if accurate, that way of stating it is about as unflattering as possible. Current husband could be predatory, opportunistic or heroic; I could make out a case for any of the above. Perhaps he deserves to be dumped; perhaps he'll just be better off without someone who calls him "a sure thing" and judges his sexual performance by toxic standards. Maybe delay the divorce, but she should at least leave for a bit.

First off, this young stranger BOA is in love with. How does BOA know he's real? I read the letter and smelled catfishing. I don't know enough about it to say how the scam was supposed to work, but I imagine a situation where somehow that trip to meet him turns into an amount of money to be given over to the guy she's never met.

My first idea was that she invite him to visit her on his own dime, but I could see that quickly turning into something where she pays him and he's supposed to pay her back. My next idea is one I like more. Why don't BOA and Mr. BOA take a vacation together to Mr. Young Stranger's country of origin? That way, in the unlikely event that everything is above board with Mr. Young Stranger, BOA and he go off with Mr. BOA's blessing for their sexual adventure. If, as I suspect, there's something catfishy going on, BOA has the back-up and advice of her husband, and they enjoy a vacation in an exotic location. That by itself might be good for their marriage.

But more than that, use the fantasy. What is it that excites BOA about her flirtation with Mr. Young Stranger? Share that. Get specific. What does she imagine Mr. YS says? What does she imagine he does? How does he treat her? What, in her imagination, does he get right? Then role play or find porn movies so all that good sexual energy can be put to use.

Because that's the way it so often works with fantasy-men that we feel that intense pull towards. When we finally get them, too often they're using the wrong pressure or the wrong rhythm or they say the wrong thing or their breath smells of onions or they fart at the wrong time too. Fantasy men have the annoying habit of being too much like husbands. It's tragic.

@43 vennominon
"My current husband is a sure thing."

I never thought of it that way because, in context, I think what she really meant was that he's 'a bird in the hand' plus (as she writes in the following sentence "He would do anything for me and stay with me until we die. I am sure of it.".

In other words I think it just meant that unlike her (crazy) plan, her husband is not a gamble.

I also think he might be helpful to her as she remakes herself in therapy. Who knows it's not impossible that the eventual new her might be compatible with her husband.

I think she is compatible with her husband curious, she wants to grow old with him. She loves him. And really what wife gets wet looking at her husband, after yrs of marriage. Is that some measure of something. It all sounds unhinged and I hope she puts the breaks on this adventure and seeks professional help.

Sporty @33: Thanks for admitting that you're being an asshole. Why do you read advice columns if you haven't got a shred of sympathy for other people? Genuine question.

EmmaLiz @36: "Also, stop getting married people! It's not a requirement! You can wait a bit!"
Thank you! This whole "no sex outside of marriage" bias has led countless religious people to get married prematurely just so they can have sex with their partners, guilt free.

"Also- no you don't get to have the fling and lie to your husband about it" -- I don't think she's considering this. She says she has already got her husband's blessing for the fling. No lying required.

Curious2 @37: You're correct; men like Husband #1 and societal messages that women must always please their men and not stop the sex before he's finished are why women fake orgasms. Women AND men fall for these messages. Many people -- even people who are regular readers and commenters on this very column -- think it's "awkward af" to actually exchange words about the sex they are having. It wouldn't even occur to a young, inexperienced woman to ask her partner to go ahead and finish because she is tired. I say this as a former young, inexperienced woman who did employ this tactic to try to get guys to come already. If only I'd known then that some guys just don't come from intercourse, and my efforts were doomed anyway. (From the letter, it does not appear BOA faked orgasms: "I was just trying really hard to have an orgasm so the sex could finally be over" sounds to me like it didn't occur to her to pretend she'd had one.)

Emma @38: "they were both kids basically" -- We don't know this for sure, but it is probable that they were a similar age. He certainly acts inexperienced and too eager to prove himself. I agree, that's better than being selfish. I think it's likely they experienced abstinence education and had zero clue.

Skeptic @42: I see an awful lot of ugly married people. I don't think marrying two guys she wasn't physically attracted to is implausible, particularly when she has such a high degree of wanting to be partnered.

Venn @43: I don't know; "I know he'll never leave me" is indeed a big point in someone's favour.

Fichu @44: I had that idea too. The husband is on board with the plan. He should go with her, and maybe do tourist stuff on his own while she's on a date with Mr Exotic, while they also spend time together exploring this new country. That way, even if he is a catfisher or just a player, the trip is not ruined.

Lava @46: "And really what wife gets wet looking at her husband, after yrs of marriage." I did; they've been together for just nine years, as we were. Not saying my ex and I are a great example :-P

I see in the letter the bones of a very good situation and potentially wonderful life-chance if--and it's a huge if--BOA is able to respond in a proportionate way to what this new guy is offering. The sexually attractive guy wants--at least--a romance. Her husband has given her the all-clear. She loves her husband and wants to grow old with him. It seems, then, that what might happen is a fling (at least) outside her primary relationship (her marriage).

She has never had sex with someone she desires before. This isn't a state of affairs likely to continue throughout her life. Either with this guy--whom she knows next to nothing about--or with someone more proximate, it's on the cards that at some point she'll act out and find someone hot--the risk being that this will blow up her marriage with what sounds a decent man. This may be why her husband has given her the go-ahead. The situation is painfully unclear to BOA, in that she's always moved before from set-up to set-up, almost from protector to protector, with each man being an evident improvement on the last (or her first husband, with all his faults and good intentions, taking her up after the early death of hee mother). Alongside the explicit religious teaching she would have received on relationships, she seems to have inculcated in her the idea that you are only ever with one person at a time; and that person should uniquely satisfy you. The letter shows how damaging this view of the world is. BOA has thought she is a bad person--but she is not a bad person for desiring someone other than her husband, nor for leaving a possibly suffocating first marriage with a man to whom she was ill-suited. It is possible to gratify your desires in relationships while dealing fairly with everyone to whom you have a responsibility.

I agree with both Bi @7 and Sublime @8. Therapy--which is a common cry--is evidently nit a bad suggestion, but I would think BOA simply being able to say--'what I was taught--this ideal of one all-encompassing love--was BS, impossible, life-destroying BS' might be the outcome of a thousand sessions.

Mr Curious/Ms Fan - It's the worst way to express what would other not be a bad sentiment. She could have called him something complimentary or praised his fidelity. A "sure thing" invites the inference that he'd never leave "because he can't do any better".

@22. Sportlandia. People are sympathetic because she lost her mother at 16 and made, or had made for her, a possibly precipitate or unwise decision about marrying that has shaped the rest of her life.

@46 LavaGirl
"think she is compatible with her husband curious"

You're right, sorry, I didn't intend otherwise, I meant to say "the eventual new her might STILL be compatible with her husband" AFTER "she remakes herself in therapy". My thinking is that people can change a lot in therapy, so much that they may no longer be right for each other.

Frankly I'm amazed at how good for her he apparently is right now...except I'm extremely prepared to blame him if he failed to also recommend therapy to her for her crazy plan. Sadly, the most religiousy people I know are very unwilling to get needed therapy; it's like all good things including personal growth are only supposed to be magically delivered unto them by "God" in exchange for their irrational belief in a cloud being.

@47 BiDanFan
Very well said.

"think it's "awkward af" to actually exchange words about the sex they are having"

This makes me sad, including with the LW. I imagine that it's easy to be uncomfortable talking about sex in this culture, and even more repressed if one is very Christiany.

@48 Harriet_by_the_bulrushes
"The sexually attractive guy"

WHAT sexually attractive guy? From the letter we don't know if she's even seen him (that's why Dan invoked the meme that 'on the Internet no one knows you're a dog'). Though I admit, despite her poor judgement, they probably did exchange photos (and maybe his WAS even real!).

@22 Sportlandia
"Somehow they ended up only like 5% as fucked up as this LW is."
@33 Sportlandia
"yes I am bothered that she's not being judged as harshly as I would be judged for the same behavior."

The same behavior? Did you cut yourself as a teenager, Sportlandia?

I'm filled with compassion for her BECAUSE she's so (to use your words, sorry BOA) "fucked up". I've been very close to such people before. It's not what they ARE, it's a painful (to everyone involved including them) condition they (HAVE and) can overcome with work on themself/therapy.

Perhaps you've never been messed up and hurting very very badly, but imagine if you were and turned to someone for advice...would you like it and would it be most helpful if instead they just got angry with you? Maybe that's what Dan and all of us should do, just get angry with everyone instead of giving them the advice they wrote in for.

@49 vennominon
I agreed in my reply that she used the wrong phrase; all I blame her for is (my theory) that she didn't choose the best phrase (in other words, that her communication skills failed her).

@42. A Skeptic. That part of the letter entirely rang true for me. The LW has relationships with men that get her out of a worse situation. There's an element of 'blowing the doors off' whenever it happens (well, it's happened twice). It’s better for a while but doesn't lead to an ideal outcome. BOA recognizes this, which is partly why she's writing asking for advice--for a head's up--now.

@44. Fichu. I don't think it's a good idea for the existing married couple to go off on vacation to where this possibly flaky, possibly non-existent correspondent is. How much disposable income do they have? Probably less than you or I. And it sends out the wrong message to her husband--that their time together will be shaped by, is in a sense subordinate to, the presence of another man entirely. On reflection, I think BOA should be able to say to her husband (something like), 'you know I came to you when I was in crisis, at a dead end with my first husband. And you've been a good friend to me. I've only ever been with two men--I feel I'm missing out, not exploring my sexual potential. Let's work out what relationship we're going to have--open, poly (on what terms), closed but more exploratory in bed, just friends but not married, just friends in a companionable marriage--before each of us starts seeing anyone else'. That's going to take a scary level of honesty and unflinching self-analysis--but it's better than the hell of self-recrimination she's going through now (and the possibly very unwise choice she's possibly about to make).

There's very little about the character of the other guy in her letter, nor about her husband's psychology. This suggests to me the first is some sort of cipher for her, answering to a psychic need.

I wish people wouldn't recommend 'therapy' so quickly, however much they think a LW has deep-seated problems. So many hear the words as immediately stigmatising, as implying they would just be dysfunctional or defective by themselves. Yes, it would be a good thing if everyone's health plan included the option of a session a week with a non-threatening, non-pathologising generalist. I've lived in countries with socialised medicine, though; and the national health care budget doesn't stretch to that.

@47 Sorry I'm unclear. I'm assuming it will not be a one time thing hence the lying to herself part, she'll do it again, plus past history, etc. So I'm thinking through the various options- be more honest and talk about an open marriage, be more honest and talk about splitting, be more honest and maybe come to the realization your husband is actually who you want to be with but (like with anyone) it is not true that he is a given who will always be there - you have to work at it. What is not an option: having a one time fling then all is well like magic, having an affair and lying about it, leaving current husband and living happily ever after with international internet man of mystery.

Any of this will be much harder in real life because there's obviously some pretty deep problems beneath all of this as all have explored. My own interpretation is that she's having trouble understanding that the current moment / current feelings are not permanent and will change. I think that's what's behind her thinking she's madly in love with this guy which is clearly just an infatuation, it's why she's so sure her husband will be there forever, it's why she married a guy that should have been a good friend who got her through a divorce in the first place. And why she writes about hurting herself when she's not the person she thinks she should be or not letting down her younger self. Like she feels like a feelign in a moment must last forever or else it's a failure/crisis.

When BOA says her online crush is 'a much younger man', does she mean younger than her or younger than her husband? How much older is he than her? Perhaps she doesn't want to be with an old man.... Though inevitably she will be, and be an old person herself....

@53. EmmaLiz. I'm entirely in sympathy with your whole train of thought. What I'd think is, as Dan and others have diagnosed, that lustful feelings are to a degree impermissible for BOA without them being romantically invested.

@harriet, she says as much herself, that she has to have a deep connection to have sex with someone. But I think it's about more than sex. The letter is full of stuff about who she thinks she should be, who others think she is, who she actually is, how her behavior is inconsistent with what she thinks of herself, self-loathing and punishment, etc. Also not able to see other people clearly- as faithful and supportive her husband might be, there is no one who is a sure thing who will never leave you no matter what and even if he were that, it's shitty to think of your partner in that dismissive way (though I don't think she's intentionally thinking that). She calls this man online "my young love" which would be immature even for an older teenager- some random young guy she's never met. And to juxtapose that with her husband- as if these are the only two choices in life for her, literally saying it's the end of her life. Talking about leaving everything and running away with mystery man vs being with hubbie until they die, being old vs being young, helping people vs being a monster, etc. These aren't issues with sex- the sex issues are caught up in this but chicken/egg. What's the word for when a person takes a normal idea/feeling and blows it up into a life-altering perspective? I can't remember, but it works along these lines: I twist my ankle and a rational response is to seek medical care and even stress a bit about long term repercussions and medical bills. But then someone with this problem would- before even getting to that next step- then think about how they will probably never walk again and go into debt and eventually be homeless which will be so miserable that they'll have to self-medicate on heroin which will no doubt eventually cause them to overdose alone in an encampment in the cold woods.

Harriet @52: If the BOAs' income stretches to a trip abroad for her, why wouldn't it stretch to a trip abroad for them both -- or for private counselling sessions, either instead of or in addition to this trip? Yes, therapy costs money; those of us who recommend it do so knowing it may not be an option due to budgetary concerns (same as those of us who recommend sex workers). But we can't not recommend it if it seems warranted, just because we don't know whether a particular LW can afford it. We can only hope that (a) they can and (b) they find a good therapist who's actually helpful, both of which are big if's in the real world -- but no bigger if's than assuming any LW will, say, take a DTMFA suggestion on board. As for therapy being stigmatised, that is a shame indeed but no reason to suggest LWs who clearly need help should just muddle through, given how badly that's worked for them so far. I have indeed seen commenters react to the suggestion of therapy as if it's an insult, when that couldn't be further from the truth. "Therapy" just means "your problems appear too large for an advice columnist to solve, please seek more expert help." And to go back to your prior paragraph, I don't think this LW has the tools to have a conversation about polyamory without some thorough soul-searching first.

Harriet @54: If Mr BOA's age were an issue, I think she would have mentioned it.

@52 Harriet_by_the_bulrushes
"I wish people wouldn't recommend 'therapy' so quickly, however much they think a LW has deep-seated problems. So many hear the words as immediately stigmatising, as implying they would just be dysfunctional or defective by themselves. Yes, it would be a good thing if everyone's health plan included the option of a session a week with a non-threatening, non-pathologising generalist. I've lived in countries with socialised medicine, though; and the national health care budget doesn't stretch to that."

All good points, but I don't have time to carry every LW past feeling stigmatised when they hear that word(1). And they have written for advice. This LW's behavior /is/ dysfunctional; as expensive as the advice is, in some cases I think one should take the perspective of not being able to afford NOT to do something when the quality of one's whole life is at stake. And she could save a bit on international airfare and divorce filings not and into the otherwise possibly inevitable future.

(1) Though maybe sometime I should write a short chapter to paste into every thread I recommend therapy in. (I say that both seriously and in jest.)(Yes, I recommend it a hell of a lot, probably more than anyone, way way way more than Dan. [Which is understandable, what kind of pro would constantly defer?])

Sportlandia @33:

"...yes I am bothered that she's not being judged as harshly as I would be judged for the same behavior. Wouldn't you?"

What "behavior"?
1 - Leaving her first husband?
2 - Considering the possibility of a fling with her second husband's blessing? Considering how this might impact her marriage?

Her thought process is a mess, but her behavior doesn't seem so terrible to me. Perhaps, instead of harsher on her, people ought to be easier on you?

Sportlandia @22:

"Her experience is a common one for what, 100 million Americans?"

Sadly, yes.

"Somehow they ended up only like 5% as fucked up as this LW is."

From what I've seen, no. This is typical.

The LW actually looks a bit ahead of the curve, in that she's pausing to consider the implications and at least self-aware enough to think her admittedly fickle affections need a second opinion.

She's catastrophizing. That's the word I was looking for. About sex, yes, but about everything.

@56. EmmaLiz. There's a sense to me that she's regressing to her first major romantic relationship, which started at 16 when she found a stable connection with a guy which partly replaced her relationship with her mother. The large-scale and abrupt changes she's made since then would seem to be recapitulating that shift--which would have been scary and made her feel the full extent of people's vulnerability.

It's clear that culturally she's been schooled in the idea that you're with one person at a time. Or just with one person--whom you love exclusively and unreservedly. The 'bar' to move from one person to another will then be very high in her mind--so much that, as Dan has said, she unconsciously exaggerates, talks and thinks up, any attraction to a man not her husband who looks like being receptive to a relationship. It would be helpful for her if she could think, 'it's just a crush', even 'just a fuck' (presuming she's in a consensually open relationship) ... but she's a long way away from being able to do that at the moment.... And it's quite possible for someone to have more exciting sex, mentally and physically, with a partner other than their 'spouse', day-to-day life partner, co-homemaker, co-parent--this implies no fault with the main relationship and casts no blame on anyone.... Again, this is very far from anything she's ever been taught.

@57. Bi. I'd find 'get yourself into therapy' and 'DTMFA' quite different in terms of whether there are financial or 'class'/cultural constraints in whether the advice can be carried out. With 'DTMFA', anyone can do that. Rihanna dumped Chris Brown's sorry ass (I'm not well enough up on pop culture to know whether she actually did), and the humblest among us can emulate her and exercise a modicum of self-determination in saying no to abuse (or to relationships that are structurally or pervasively one-sided). I don't think all of us can book ourselves into therapy for both the brute financial reason, and on cultural grounds--for very many, it's something outside their experience, that may imply too great an admission of fallibility, helplessness, lack of control or psychological extremity than they're willing to accept about themselves. (There's also a sense of shaming or belittling self-loss to many--'give yourself up to the pointyheads, to the mind doctors; accept you're so fucked in the head that you can't sort yourself out; that a stiff drink, a few beers, a 'cup of tea and a natter' (in England) isn't going to do the trick'.

I would actually see a subtext of class superiority on many occasions when people recommend therapy (esp. middle-class women to working-class men).

@58. curious. I think an agony aunt or uncle with a sassy voice and deal of wisdom, who obviously isn't professionally qualified as a shrink, will often do a lot more good than the mind-doctor. (This is both when giving the same advice and giving different advice). Often people have to be in extremis to consent to being medicalised. As someone with a minority sexuality and what would readily have been diagnosed even recently as gender dysphoria, I have a resistance to being medicalised.... Even if I know I have problems, can't I try to understand my life more on my own terms...?

@63 Harriet_by_the_bulrushes
Yes other people in one's life, or perhaps even better oneself (particularly the farther along one's journey one goes), can be better than a therapist. Good point. And I hear you, in your case a vital point.
But a point that I don't have time to write on to each such LW I recommend therapy a chapter about, but I think that's OK because it goes without saying.

"Often people have to be in extremis to consent to being medicalised."

Yes, I think I spoke of how unfortunate that is myself upthread. I think thinking "medicalized" really misunderstands the inner growth/psychological and spiritual development therapy can be about, and every human is on a journey of (whether or not their journey is so unconscious it's spent stationary).

"can't I try to understand my life more on my own terms"

LW's and you should OF COURSE try that first. Harriet, you're far too sophisticated to need the help most anyone could offer. (Though I bet there are a small number of superstars you could bounce ideas back and forth with to the benefit of all.)

But a LW who isn't functional has obviously not done great at it on their own, and I bet it's even more unlikely that someone in their life is capable than it is they can afford a little therapy (just talk, at least at first); and while both are hard, generally speaking one can throw money one can't afford not to spend more practically than one can magically conjure a wise person in one's life. Of course I also fear people won't make it to the /right/ therapist; sigh, yet another thing a chapter needs to be written about.

Anyway...looking outside oneself is only really important when one can't do it alone; but it often helps if one looks in the right place. I've done some pretty wild and profoundly beneficial transpersonal stuff in therapy (and far more on my own), and calling it 'medical' would be quite offbase.

@64 p.s.
I was in way too much of a hurry (still am), but I had to come back and fix this

"But a point that I don't have time to write on to each such LW I recommend therapy a chapter about..."

mucking fess I started but didn't finish revising. How about instead:

"But a point that I don't have time to write a chapter about to each such LW I recommend therapy to..."

@64. curious. I think 'resistance to being medicalised' is a thing among people with deep-seated problems. People don't want to hear 'your ego never formed perfectly, never separated from your mother's' from a psychotherapist. (Now, of course, a therapist won't necessarily offer their diagnoses in medical or psychologising language--they will say, 'but what do you do for yourself?; (e.g.), 'but isn't it about standing up for yourself?'--but they might think it). It can be undermining of patients or analysands to think that they're a case. A loss of autonomy or the power of self-determination is almost written into the process. I would be interested to talk with a professional therapist to see whether they shared any of my concerns about the relationship as having a tendency to incapacitate or enfeeble the advisee, or to deprive them of their own language or vernacular modes of (self-)understanding.

What I think better about advice columns like Dan's is that they're less likely to oblige people to give up their own vernacular. Indeed, they give people a personally inclusive, non-shaming vernacular.

Personally I have gone to counseling and benefited from it. My sophistication takes the form of having complicated reasons not to take the very obvious advice that anyone--that a friend, that a well-wishing observer, that a trained professional--would have for me.

Re: "get yourself into therapy"

Aside from the obstacles mentioned here (cultural, financial, taboo), I want to repeat again that therapy doesn't work for most people. Whether or not it could work for those people if the various obstacles were removed and the person had enough time and access to search for a long time for "the right fit" and also have a willingness/ability to accept and work with treatment (which often isn't the case even for people who realize they need help) is another issue. The reality of the matter is that for all these reasons, therapy does not work for most people. It's a hard thing to study because defining the terms of what therapy is and how many times a person goes and what treatments they receive is all tricky so researchers can have run these studies a few different ways with different outcomes, but overall it remains that most people who enter therapy do not leave with any change.

Again, not trying to dismiss it as an option because when it does work for people, it really helps them, so I'm all for people giving it a try and I'm all for removing the barriers that make it difficult for people to find the help they need. However, those barriers are so varied and complex (as we see in this thread) that I wonder if the sort of utopian world in which those barriers didn't exist would require much therapy in the first place. Back to the topic at hand though, I'm not opposed to therapy, but the reason the "get therapy" advice rubs me the wrong way is because it's often offered as a solution- that if the person would just seek help they would find it and then their life would be fine. As if you are dealing with someone who is bleeding who foolishly refuses to apply a bandage. The reality is that people often seek help insomuch as they can in the situation they are in (which includes their mental state, culture, amount of free time, resources, insurance, skilled therapists/facilities in their area) and none of this makes any difference. So the advice is fine so long as we don't give it with the expectation that it will help the person any more than it does in reality- which statistically ranges from almost never to just over half depending on what sort of therapy and what they are being treated for.

@68 Harriet_by_the_bulrushes
First time I ever tried therapy (as a freshman, a free benefit of my University), I was surprised to discover a school of psychotherapists that never say a word other than to echo the last phrase one said. Even while I was cutting short the first visit explaining that that wasn't worth my time; even as I was walking out the door! (Maybe the University offered that free because it was so easy to train a beginning therapist to do almost nothing.)

I wish I had more to respond to your thoughtful comment with.

"A loss of autonomy or the power of self-determination is almost written into the process."

We are all connected and no one can do everything by themselves; but that in no way means one isn't autonomous/self-determining. I got helped by various periods of therapy a number of times for a number of difficult life things over the years. OTOH...

When it came not to getting over issues, but to growth in awareness/psycho-spiritually, I can totally relate. For decades I carefully avoided seeking advanced guidance, very determined to not be 'programmed'. Then after a period when I felt my growth had stagnated/plateaued and wondered if there were more I could do, I stumbled upon someone, and tried some stuff, and was glad I was open to help since I left that plateau far behind, in other words it was wonderfully beneficial. But I wasn't programmed, I never wasn't self-determining, I never became an unquestioning vessel to be filled by someone else's determination.

@69 EmmaLiz
"therapy doesn't work for most people...It's a hard thing to study because defining the terms of what therapy is and how many times a person goes and what treatments they receive is all tricky so researchers can have run these studies a few different ways with different outcomes"

I'll take your word for this stat, but your assertion isn't super relevant to most of our LW's.

For example, 0% of Donald Trump would benefit from therapy because (like many many many people) he has a problem (narcissism) for which there is no effective treatment. Which I think is not the case with most of the LW's writing to Dan, just for starters because (unlike just for example Donald Trump) they are self-describing as wanting help (by writing).

I'm not advising against offering therapy. I'm contributing to the discussion of why the advice "go seek therapy" sometimes rubs people the wrong way. It can come across as assuming a solution which can seem like passing the blame on the person who is suffering for not simply fixing their problem by getting therapy. When we give this advice, we need to keep in mind that while therapy might help some people (and therefore it's worthwhile for people to give it a shot insomuch as they are able), it is not a solution for most people, even those that earnestly seek and desire help.

What I'm saying is that I think people who give this advice start out with the assumption that if the person is willing to seek help, they will find it. Statistically, this is not the case. The response to this is that the circumstances around that should change (barriers removed etc) but reality is that those barriers are there, so this isn't really helpful to individuals in those situations. Moreover, even that makes an assumption- that if the barriers were removed, more people would find therapy helpful. There is no evidence for this because those barriers have not been removed, so we are starting with this assumption.

CBT was all the rage a few years ago, lots of research saying THIS is the thing that works. Now loads of further research criticizing the original, loads more saying its efficacy was never so good in the first place. If you've been around these studies for a while, you'll recognize the pattern, every time there is a new treatment or fix. Americans really do need to believe that problems have solutions that are in the control of individuals, and I think that is why they persist in their "seek therapy" advice, but statistically, there just isn't much evidence that this is true for most people. The conditions and causes that create mental illness are too holistic and complex and not well understood, therefore solutions tend to be hit and miss. By all means, someone should seek therapy with an earnest and open mind, but when giving advice to someone who is suffering, we should be a bit more understanding of the complexity of the situation- the reality is that therapy does not work for most people. Most mental health problems do not have individual solutions.

@72@73 EmmaLiz

I hear you and unfortunately I agree.

I think the biggest impediments are things like:
1.
Willingness to try.
2.
Sufficient awareness (including self-awareness) to see the potential benefit/growth, and/or actually realize the benefit/growth.

Almost everyone is too far from 'present' (too blinded and identified with their hamster-wheel of thoughts) to even be more than superficially aware of their own body, let alone their emotions and being.

Maybe when (for example with this LW) we answer "therapy", what we're really saying is:

'Dear LW, nothing we can say here will provide a quick fix. we invite you on what will not be a short path to transforming this pattern and yourself. look inside yourself. look to others who might be able to help. maybe one of them might be a therapist? we hope it helps; if so it can be worth everything you do to make it so.'

Why don't I say that? Well, I'm busy. I also probably (as you accuse Americans of) have been wanting to feel like I'm giving a solution. I also probably don't want to be as bummed out as I am now thinking about the real chances people will benefit. I also probably am projecting the wonderful success I've had personally as being possible for people without #2 above.

In short, paradoxically, you're right, but I don't know exactly how we are to do it differently here in advice-column land.

Well it appears we are not agreeing completely because I'm arguing that even with sufficient self-awareness and a willingness to try (even a desperation to do so) a person cannot always become mentally healthy, even with all the abundance of resources and privilege a person has on offer. A quick example just because my nephew is reading him right now and I just finished chatting with him, David Foster Wallace.

In terms of advice here, yes on that we are agreeing. Of course all we can do here is offer advice, and just to clarify, I'm not criticising the advice of recommending therapy precisely because it does help some people so why not. I offered that same advice in my first post in this very thread to this very LW. I'm commenting on the reasons why advice to "get therapy" sometimes rubs people the wrong way. It assumes that the therapy could solve the problem and if not, then it is somehow the fault of the person seeking it- say, they aren't willing enough to get help or that they aren't self-aware enough to see the potential growth- rather than a recognition of the fact that some mental health problems do not currently have solutions (sometimes they are not even understood), and in fact any solutions on offer are often a product of the same wider problems that created the mental health issues in the first place.

@75 EmmaLiz
First, I would distinguish between mental health and psychological health. Mental (aka plhsical brain) health issues can be intractable even with available psychiatric meds. Psychological issues (my Donald Trump example) can also be intractable.

"even with sufficient self-awareness and a willingness to try (even a desperation to do so) a person cannot always become mentally healthy"

True, but I think with those two things they can usually become more psychological healthy. (Maybe my notion of the stats differs from yours because as I wrote I think "Almost everyone" is 'insufficiently' aware, so I think your quoted sentence refers to small minority of people.)

Perhaps, instead of harsher on her, people ought to be easier on you?

You know, I agree. But the world is going the opposite direction, gleefully. So the later is absolutely not going to happen.

@70. Imv, there is much less of a loss of self-determination in taking (even just in canvassing) others' advice when talking to friends over a coffee morning, e.g., or chatting in the locker room ('don't love her? Just dump her, dude!'), than there is in a structured setting with a counselor (of any description) and advisee. In the first, the language and concepts at play are just those of a person's ordinary conversation. There's no element of re-education, as there can be with therapy. Next, these social interactions are more two-way and aren't at all principally about advice-giving. I'm a curious, let's say, person, and (I'd estimate) not 5% of the conversation I'd have with any friend turns on life-guidance.

You're right, though, that we're all connected and imperfectly autonomous.

In my case, I almost got myself onto a treadmill of stints of punitive asceticism followed by stints of equally punitive promiscuity, due to my objection to relationships. (They were heteronormative). Almost anyone could have said that my behavior was self-defeating and rationalisations strained; that they covered over unresolved issues. I hid my behavior from many friends and lived in a compartmentalised way, with no one getting the full picture. Finally it took a good therapist to help me see I could think differently without jettisoning my values.

How often are the people who write into advice columns 'mentally ill'? I think there has to be a presumption that they (that most) are mentally healthy individuals, with a circumstantially specific problem (and nexus of associated psychological issues) which they will be able to deal with more or less self-interestedly and rationally.

It’s by no means a straightforward question, since if the answer between Option A and Option B were simple, the advice in toto would never be anything but 'Option B'; and if people just posing their question was so involved and entailed so many questionable assumptions or contradictions, the advice could never be anything other than 'too much to unpack. Seek therapy'. We know most cases aren't of the first sort. Dan, or the person in his position, always has lots to say--so much so there's a struggle not to say 'too much to unpack'.

Upon reflection I want to revisit:
@71 EmmaLiz "therapy doesn't work for most people..."

All but one of the psychological issues I've used therapy for were successful. OTOH, I realize that few people would have gone to therapy for these issues...

And wouldn't/mightn't have even been /aware/ of some issues. One was subconscious; I only became aware of it because a GF mentioned it (on her way out the door). I didn't think she was right, but I went to therapy anyway because I eagerly embrace any possible chance to grow (I think it's my purpose and the purpose of the universe). In therapy I quickly became aware of the subconscious issue. It was a very significant challenge of years to overcome it, and I did; this is one of the things I'm proudest of in life.

The issue I haven't overcome is some early childhood trauma. Unfortunately trauma is extremely resistant to resolution. I worked long and hard, and have learned to prevent my reaction/manage it's effects, but can only say this issue is for me roughly 1/4 better. I'd love to do better, particularly because I've got some very challenging medical issues the trauma inflames, but I just can't afford the therapy to go any further, and the returns would be diminishing/uncertain.

In other words, for me 0% of the issues the average (by which I also mean therapy-averse) person would even go to therapy about have been resolved. OTOH, the vast majority of the things /I/ went to therapy about /have/ been resolved.

Oh, and @73 you mentioned CBT, and thanks. I never thought if would help me at all, I just figured 'good for those who say it was right for them'. Interesting to hear it wasn't just me who questioned it.

@78 Harriet_by_the_bulrushes
"element of re-education...with therapy"

That sounds terrible! I'd never let that happen to me. I would only go to a therapist to give advice/assistance, not brainwashing.

"...I could think differently without jettisoning my values"

A very understandable journey, thank you for that, and...
Good for you H!

@79 Harriet_by_the_bulrushes
"How often are the people who write into advice columns 'mentally ill'? I think there has to be a presumption that they (that most) are mentally healthy individuals"

Based upon what letters get printed, I agree. Some have psychological issues, but most aren't I think ill let alone saddled with physical brain (what I personally like to reserve "mentally" to describe) problems (which often call for the hope that meds will provide a missing chemical 'puzzle piece').

"It’s by no means a straightforward question..."

Absolutely. Given all the unknowables, and that Dan simultaneously needs to be concerned with readership, I think he has helped people (and the culture) quite impressively. I honestly think people here (least of all me) have also helped LW's who look at the comments quite impressively. Though nowhere can or does anyone hope to say everything possibly necessary, sometimes a push is hopefully enough to precipitate a successful journey.

@80. curious. Echoing what you say about Dan helping.

On the approximate topic of your therapy-resistant trauma, there are some triggers I can't defuse. If someone starts packing in front of me, I give them anything they want. If they say 'I'm packing' and I'm away, I DTMFA (or let the kind person go, depending on circumstances).