Gay Kinkster Wonders Whether He Should Sound Off Online About a Pair of Inept Tops Or Contact Them Directly?

Comments

1

Honestly you could have cut the first 2/3rds of the letter - "I was annoyed by this thing that I knew about in advance and agreed to...", "i have no issue with CP time I know about but I'm a westerner so I'll demand adherence anyhow"... like c'mon, you're an adult. I know I myself would never wait an hour, I'd bounce beforehand. You didn't bounce, so there's your decision regarding that. You were annoyed that this other guy wanted to blow you, enjoyed the blowjob... and are annoyed still? Whose consent are you saying was violated?

Anyhow, all these non-issues being presented as side issue makes me think that the rest of the issues are non-issues as well.

The couple responded to an ad for sounding play and apparently had never done it. OK. That's obnoxious if they represented themselves as experienced; not every vet wants to break in a rookie, I think that's valid. Give em 1 star. Fin.

2

Hi, I'm just a little ol' red flag. 🚩

Mind if I bring my friends? 🚩🚩🚩🚩🚩🚩🚩🚩🚩🚩🚩🚩🚩🚩🚩🚩🚩🚩🚩🚩🚩🚩🚩

3

Few of us have time to waste waiting for a play partner, but even fewer have time to reschedule something after someone stands us up, so I can understand waiting 20 minutes, but not an hour.

Getting sucked and getting sounded don't go together. One should take a piss break after getting sucked before getting sounded.

When the supposed doms demonstrated their lack of knowledge about sterile protocol for sounding, I would have stopped and left. Even if I had all of the necessary stuff, the fact that they didn't know what they were doing before they started would have told me not to let them continue. Even a sterile sound can be used improperly.

One major point of negotiating ahead of a scene is to define hard limits. I wouldn't trust anyone who tried to renegotiate during a scene.

While I do like to try things on myself before doing them to others, there are things I'm not into that others crave. Perhaps a better example than the whipping is this: While a surgeon's bedside manner and patient interaction might be improved by their undergoing a procedure themselves, it would not enhance their ability to perform the procedure.

My advice is to write up the event and post it on FetLife. Include the places, but not any names. Then contact the supposed doms and link them to the FetLife discussion and to this Savage Love Letter so that they can also read the comments.

4

"But what irked me about it was they kept goading the guy to suck my cock—great sucker, btw—and when it was very obvious that the guy had no interest in sounding they kept goading him to watch or to sound me or to get sounded himself. Which I felt violated Consent."
Then you violated Consent! If Consent was violated, then you were an actor doing the violating too.

5

Does it strike anyone else as odd that someone would own a set of sounds without ever having tried any out themselves? It may not be stated outright that the sounds didn't belong to POSO, but "weren't washed beforehand" strongly suggests it. If they were his and he made plans to meet up with the Filipinos to use them on himself, it seems like that's something he would have tended to himself beforehand.

Anyway, LW —being both Asian and gay — shouldn't have been too surprised about the double whammy of "rubber time" and "gay time"*. Allowing a half hour for each seems about right.

*not to be confused with Golden Gaytime, the Australian ice cream novelty. Slogan: "It's hard to have a Gaytime on your own!"

6

Another pre-production meeting in a public place should be the standard prior to any action.
This first meeting should not be in your hotel room nor apartment, but rather a coffee shop, hotel bar, etc. I always offer my id and ask others to present theirs.

Pre-production face-to-face is great to clarify things, reiterate boundaries and asses one’s safety, including the ability to call it quits on the spot without facing any potential risk of while the other party is already at your place.

7

Might I suggest placing several billboards around Singapore featuring two veiny cocks protruding in, one from the left one from the right. Each would have a metal sounding rod sticking out of their bulbous, purple heads with these two peoples’ faces photoshopped on the bulb at the end. Overall would be a red, circular “do not enter” graphic to get your point across.

8

First off, anti-bacterial wipes aren't sufficient to sterilize sounds for urethral insertion. Second, when your red flags went up (all of which were valid) you should have called it and not allowed things to proceed. Yes, they were dangerous, but you were also complicit, both by engaging in unsafe play (even though you knew better) and in pushing someone's blowjob boundaries. The best thing you can do for the other participants is educate them. You can also warn folks on Fetlife, leaving out names due to the site's terms of service, but be sure to own your piece in the problem, too.

9

I have no real life kink experience but I've spent some time in kinky online communities, have kinky friends, etc. I consider myself a dominant woman. It's always seemed kind of strange to me that dominants are supposed to have experience with submission before being dominant. I get that the idea is to put yourself in the shoes of the submissive and understand what they are going through, only problem is there is not a great chance I will enjoy submission. So if someone else enjoys being hit and called a "slut" or whatever, and I do not, I don't see how I gain any useful knowledge of their perspective by subjecting myself to something I know I will dislike. Does anyone actually become a better person from that experience, or is it a hazing ritual/barrier to entry? Also, as a woman I fear this social norm is just another way to put women in their place because women are "supposed" to be submissive. I don't know, maybe if I was actually involved in these activities it wouldn't seem this way to me but from my perspective it just seems weird.

10

And Dan scoffs and says hetero people makes things too complicated. Ha!

11

Sporty @1: It's time for me to play the reverse-the-genders card on you and say hello, victim blaming much?

Fred @5: That doesn't strike me as odd. They are both tops. They may have had previous subs with whom they engaged in this kind of play, or bought them in hopes of meeting someone like POSO. I have a kinky ex who had purchased a veritable arsenal of toys despite not (previously) having had anyone to use them with.

CMD @6: Excellent point. Hope POSO has learned a number of what-not-to-do's from this experience.

TLC @9: Exactly. The whole point of being a Dominant is that one does not enjoy submission. So if one -does- try it, for whatever pointless reason, one will not achieve the goal of experiencing the act through the sub's eyes. Better advice is to proceed with caution, let the sub take the lead in asking for what they want and check in often.

Marty @10: Where does he do/say that? What a homophobic comment. Why are you reading Dan's column?

12

@11 Fuck you. I'm the opposite of homophobic.

13

Now we’ve got that out of the way.
Heavens, what a story. Obviously a few of you were not very considerate re consent and skill. As CMD above says, don’t meet strangers in a room, meet them in public and talk thru their skills and check your intuitive response to them. You sense danger and/ or incompetence, stop the meet.
This is your penis they are messing with and you are so cavalier about it. This poor boy they dragged along, he’s the one most abused in this story. You other three should communicate and together apologise to the fourth, and each other.
Rubber brain more like it.

14

Frankly, everyone I know who's met people on fet life has at least one bad story about a consent-violator, or incompetent practitioner doing something dangerous - usually a couple of both, actually.

So yes, post the full write up, but also for the future, any time you meet someone from fetlife you should be prepared for a 50-50 chance that this person is predatory, incompetent, or both.

15

Can it be a good idea to be sounded by strangers even if not covered with red flags?
And who on first read I thought had never sounded anyone before...but I see it's just receiving sounding the assholes hadn't done, which sounds like a big flag.

16

Marty @12: Heterophobic? Yeah, I'll buy that.

Lava @13: Great suggestion that he get in touch with the fourth man, if possible, and apologise for his role in violating Fourth's consent.

17

re: consent
fwiw, I interpreted the LW's comments to mean the 4th was enthusiastic about blowing, but not about being involved in the sounding. (as opposed to unenthusiastic about all of it). I can see how things played out the way they did in that case, especially if the blowing was earlier in the scene. (happily accepting the blowjob, pushing back against the tops pressure to the other sub on the sounding.)

re: @9 tops experiences what the subs experience
In my experience, this recommendation (to have experienced something of what the sub will feel) is usually not so much about the whole scene, as the physical sense play. The idea behind it is to help you calibrate what you're doing. If you've never had that sensation its harder to guess how this will work for a given sub. Its kind of like asking a chef to taste their food. Even if you're not a fan of chocolate cake, if you're making it anyway, you'll improve your craft if you can bring yourself to know the difference between the different types and brands of chocolate.

On the other hand, it's just a general rule. Sounding is a pretty intense kink, not everyone who's willing to sound is going to be willing to be sounded. fwiw, to me, that doesn't seem like a red flag on its face. BUT a lack of willingness to learn about proper technique, esp when your own bits aren't on the line, is.

18

@15 p.s.
"Can it be a good idea to be sounded by strangers"

I should have asked "what kind of feedback did they have on the app"?

19

@9, I think your example is a bit different because D/s is a dynamic, not a specific action. (I could kinda see a dom ordering his sub to sound him, if he wanted.) The situations where this principle applies are more like when you're asking someone to do something for your enjoyment that isn't necessarily something the other person has tried or enjoyed. The classic example is a guy asking a girl to fuck her in the ass. It's not something that's inherently pleasurable for her (usually). And it's not the girl asking to get fucked in the ass in this scenario. It's also not very extreme (like Dan's whipping exception). It isn't easier for me to get over getting buttfucked and learn to enjoy it than it is for the guy, but lots of guys have an "oh hell no" reaction if I suggest turning the tables. Why should I be able to enjoy that more than you? And why should I trust that you're going to take care of me and prioritize my pleasure as well as your own when you do this thing? Reciprocity is not a requirement, but it definitely helps.

20

@11 I'm not sure I see any victims here at all? Like this dude had a bad experience. No one got hurt, move on.

I feel like my take is consistent with my previous takes, and I don't really see how this would be different if it were a group of women? I dunno I just don't see how gender comes in to play w/r/t my comment.

21

I thought every vaguely experienced online player follows the "yeah, no" rule if the situation, participants, or toys change. Third guy turns up who isn't in to the deal? I'm gone. Toys are dirty? Gone. Won't respect my boundaries? Gone. Fake pics? So totally Gone. Why is this so complex?

22

Oh, and did I mention to clean your place before having company over? That too.

23

A group of women wouldn’t let this train wreak happen Sportlandia. That you don’t see it was that, shows how different perceptions can be. Because the LW dodged a bullet.. nobody got hurt.. is good, this still is s teachable moment.
There are crazy people out there, best to check before letting them into a private space with tools they are gonna insert into a small hole at the end of one’s penis. Reckless behaviour around sex doesn’t change, it’s the tolerance for it that varies.
Men together appear to have a lot of that, tolerance for reckless behaviour around sex.

24

Dan, PLEASE! Can we have some sort of warning about letters involving sounding, or better yet, just skip them like you do things relating to scat?

I'm totally not squicked out by gay porn or anything like that, but for me sounding is just a fetish to far. I can't not be horrified by it, sort of like coprophagy would be for you.

I'll be hiding under my desk now.

Yes. I'm a middle-aged snowflake looking for a trigger warning. Sad.

25

@24 what potential warning about sounding could you receive that's less explicit than in the letter? Is it just the word, "Sounding"?

Also, be glad you weren't reading Savage Love in the 90s.

26

"I am a firm believer that if haven’t experienced something your self, you shouldn’t do it to others."

This is a categorically terrible rule. Given the biological differences that are usually a factor, almost all straight sex is out (receptive anal is the only thing that both members of nearly all straight couples are able to experience), plus all queer sex where both people aren't interested in all possible roles. Really, that rule is just a recipe for coercing people to do things sexually they don't like, which is gross and creepy. "People should only do things sexually uncoerced," is a much better rule in every way.

27

@21: Because people have a tendency to lose all self-control and reason when it comes to sex. Not all of us, but apparently most of us.

@6: You wrote "asses" instead of "assess", and for the first time ever, I'm glad these comments have no edit function. :-)

28

@24 so taking a commuter train to catch a pro soccer game at CenturyLink Field is a hard "no", I guess?

29

@23 "A group of women wouldn’t let this train wreak happen" - you've been reading this column well long enough to know that's not true.

30

@BiDanFan No, silly. The opposite of " homophobic" is "not homophobic."

I'm going to adopt Dan's Exasperated Asterisk Caveat system. I hope that isn't trademarked.

31

Marty @30: If you're going to make a comment that is on its face homophobic, you should really have some evidence against your not being homophobic than just claiming you aren't. And "fuck you" is not an appropriate response to someone who, gee, read a homophobic sounding comment as homophobic. If what you're implying is that there is no way you could be homophobic because you yourself are gay, how are strangers on a board supposed to know that?
You didn't get my joke, so that should serve as a good example that not everyone is going to get yours.

DCP @24: Yeah, I'll second the laughing off of the trigger warnings. You read "gay kinkster" in the headline, that should have been a clue that there might be something in there that's unsuitable for the squeamish?

32

Sporty @20: Yes, you're right -- you've shows similar callousness in the past to female rape victims. Guess that thought exercise isn't going to help in this case.

33

Sportlandia @29, I meant what I said, and I said what I meant. A scenario like this three stooges rountine would not happen with a group of women.

34

Lava @33: Three stooges routine, LOL! I have to say, I agree with you. In my experience, when women get together, we err so far on the side of making sure no one's consent is violated that nothing happens.

35

Lulu @ 17 - "The idea behind it is to help you calibrate what you're doing."

Indeed. I have grown to hate sex with total tops, as they have no clue what they're doing up my ass. And that's just for regular anal sex, so imagine sounding!

36

@31 BiDanFan. Nope. Sorry. Nothing I wrote was homophobic. I am hereby accusing you of suffering from Kneejerkitis and urge you to have that treated.

37

Fred Casey @ 28 made a great local joke that should be explained to the rest of the world: Savageville’s local soccer team is called The Sounders.
Watch out, dcp123.

38

@37 CMDwannabe
Oh great, now every time I think of Puget Sound I'm gonna cringe.

39

Lava @ 33, BDF @ 34
Sporty may have a point. The two of you come across as ethical and considerate, but you’re not the only ones out there.
I don’t know if my own experience would count here as I’m not a cister, yet few years ago I was under the jurisdiction of two bios, as a woman, and a boundary violation occurred towards the end of the afternoon session. Not too major yet a big enough red flag to cut the contacts despite one of them offering the possibility of an ongoing play time.

Inconsiderate assholes have all kind of genitalia and as an experienced person pointed out recently, some of them claim “dom” in order to mask their assholism.

40

CMD @39, Fan and I were talking of an all women group, like this was an all mens, not a mixed one. Why would you bring in a confusing twist.
Goes without saying All humans are capable of being asswipes or as we say here, arsewipes.

41

You were talking about two women against one in a DD/s experience; implying women would never cross any boundaries. Yes, it is less likely to happen than in all-men situations, yet still a possibility. Is your definite “never” based on any real life experience? Would it be ok to cross lines if the “s” is a male-born?
Confusing twist will be my epitaph.

42

I thought it was a mixed gender couple who were domming?

43

"reach out to them and educate them"
If you mean tell him how you feel, and tell them how their behavior hurt you, so they are unlikely to hurt anyone else, that sounds awesome. Trying to give away free lessons sounds preachy or cultish.

44

CMD, The dynamic changes in a mixed grouping. I talk from experience as a woman. Does that count? And Fan talks from experience as a bi woman.
No Philo. Gay men in this group.

45

Lava- the specific situation we’re talking here is that of a bdsm activity done behind closed doors. Is that your experience or is it only being a woman?

I think BDF was relating mostly to hookups with women as opposed to D/s activity, though I get a vibe that she is a decent person who will not violate others’ boundaries. Yet she’s not the only woman who’s into kink. BDSM is a power dynamic and violations are possible regardless of gender.

46

I actually read that the first time as a mixed gender couple domming. It made perfect sense that way, if you buy that a gay guy would still have group sex if a woman was involved.

But I've just been reading about western women who joined ISIS, not offering to fight of course, but signing up to marry the martyrs every year before they died. Now they say they made a mistake. Ew. But I don't think we should strand them in refuge camps I think we should bring them home for trial so any other idiots can see what will happen if they admire the holy wars and burn their passport in Turkey to go fuck martyrs.

I think it's only ethical to wait for enthusiastic consent, and speak up every time you see someone else's or your own consent disrespected. It's hard to tell where that absolutely happened here except when they disregarded LWs hard red. Was goading really off limits for the other 3? I guess he wanted to try to salvage the scene but I think he should have just left when they pushed his boundaries and admitted it couldn't be salvaged if they couldn't respect hard reds from a stranger, and maybe he shouldn't wait an hour for a first date unless they are super apologetic if he really doesn't want to fuck someone who's disrespectful.

I still think he should tell them they are fucking scary and might hurt the next guy worse. But I liked the idea about linking to a Fetlife write up and this column too, maybe with just a "consent is important assholes" or something if he wants something easier..

47

And I thought the rule was "don't ask others for something you wouldn't do yourself".. if you're finding it hard to be empathetic then yeah do it too.

48

Jesus CMD. The situation described here is about four men, two Ds, one s and one ring it. It was organised to occur in a private room as the first meet, the rogue three were an hour late, two of them didn’t seem to know wtf they were doing the ring in they tried to coerce into activities he didn’t want to do, jury is out on whether that includes giving oral sex to the s, and the s puts up with these shenanigans, down to being given oral sex and masturbating; then he storms off and complains the Ds were incompetent.
That scenario, that train wreak, that stupid sequence of events is what I was referring to when I said I don’t think a group of women would let this all unfold so messily and dangerously.
You tried to turn it into something else, and you started by changing the sexual composite of the group.

49

Moses Lava. I'm telling you that such scenarios can still go wrong regardless of genitalia. I didn't turn it into anything, only brought up my own experience. What is your conclusion based on?

50

Like I said, my conclusion is based on being a woman. How long you wanna do this for?

51

And your conclusion CMD is not relevant, because the group you experienced was not a group of women.

52

Moses? That’s funny. Hugs to you CMD.

53

I don't think that CMD was violated because she had a penis. Some women are just jerks.

54

@53 Philophile
Just to confirm, are CMD's pronouns she/her? (I recently posted referring to CMD with gender-neutral phrasing because I honestly don't know.)

55

p.s. I'm just asking because I want to use the right pronouns should I find myself in that situation again.

I'm absolutely not about to (a la Venn) start formally addressing people with Mr./Ms./etc. (That just feels too divisive to me here in particular, and to place importance upon gender that makes me uncomfortable. Speaking of which, every time I see our friend by the bullrushes referred to as "M??? Harriet" I wonder how /that/ feels to the person being addressed.)

56

Marty @36, well at least you said sorry.

CMD/Lava: I'll agree with Philo @53. Some women are indeed jerks, and CMD, yes, consent violations are more likely to occur in BDSM situations than in vanilla ones because by definition one (or more) people are (consensually) hurting another and often gleefully overriding insincere "no, stop!"s. Domming can be a power trip and power does go to some folks' heads, and especially when combined with being turned on (as John @27 astutely describes), people of any gender can get carried away. I regret my misguided attempt to stir sympathy in Sportlandia, an impossible task in retrospect, with unfortunate side effects of setting off a war between you and Lava. I shall steer clear of such devil's advocacy in the future.

57

Curious, I think CMD prefers female pronouns while en femme, iirc identifies as genderfluid, and I believe father.

Sporty is kinda heartbreaking except it's frustrating he doesn't seize on learning opportunities more... but sadness can run deep.. I would prefer people to kick and scream about being hurt instead of suck it up and believe it's forever..

And the crappy dom couple might learn to respect hard reds if it stopped working for them, right now they might consider LW equally rude if he simply acted sort of coldly and quickly left without explanation. If they learned it was awful for him even if he could not speak up mid scene, the next guy might not have such a crappy time with them. +karma comes around.

58

Thanks for the renewed interest in this thread.
I think of myself as a “they” generally, and a “she” when in such role and corresponding appearance.

59

@58 CMDwannabe
"I think of myself as a “they” generally"

1.
Cool, down with categorization! (I think the purpose of it all is growth, and I think growth calls for transcending whatever niches one starts out in. Oh, and I think gender norms do a great deal of harm.)

2.
I guess I did it right after all (purely to not get it wrong) when I avoided specifying a few weeks back.

60

Some great comments, here. I'd just like to add a note about "pushing limits" and consent. Pushing limits NEVER means breaking limits, or going over current limits. A top pushing a bottom's limits needs to go up to, but not over, the current limit, and then by his or her actions convince the bottom that pushing a bit further is for the bottom's benefit, and that the top can be trusted to push only so far as is safe and good for the bottom. If that happens, the bottom's limit becomes movable and you can push it further without breaking it.

"For the bottom's benefit" and "Good" in this case can mean a wide range of things! Including many that an outsider would not recognize, but the two involved agree on (not necessarily verbally) in the moment. Safe, however, is safe - no permanent damage, and following any other safety restrictions the bottom established before play (one of mine is no marks above the shirt collar line).

Then, if and when the bottom's consent comes (it doesn't have to be verbal, but it has to be clear), that is the signal that his or her limit has become flexible, and is ready to be moved - always with continuing consent as it is moved, and always stopping when the bottom signals "enough".

A good top elicits consent before he or she moves forward. A good bottom always makes sure the top understands "yes" when the bottom is feeling "yes", and "no" when the bottom is feeling "no". Honest and clear consent or withholding consent is the job of the bottom, eliciting consent from the bottom (and then using it up and eliciting more) is the job of the top.

Some tops have no clue how to elicit consent and then consume consent - some tops have only a vague notion of what consent means. Some tops have either no care for the well-being of a bottom or actively want to damage him or her. Avoid bad tops like the plague.

And always ensure that you can get up and leave when getting together with a new top, and do not hesitate to do so if you feel uncomfortable. Good bottoms do not reward bad tops.

61

Ecarpenter, I don't think this pushing limits that you describe should be part of a scene unless it's one of the bottom's kinks. I don't understand why tops can't just stick to prenegotiated boundaries by default. As Dan said, there is extra pressure when you are renegotiating in scene. It may feel like all the sex will end if you reject the top. At the very least when you have to reject someone it usually dampens your mood. Why not just push limits during the out-of-bed negotiations? Unless the bottom proposes in scene, so there is no risk of rejection. On a similar note, if a bottom is pulled out of the scene enough to say stop, isn't that a sign that this technique may not work great?

If "pushing limits" is a kink of both, then I like your method. Although I can't think of a signal that is both clear and nonverbal for "my limits have changed", unless prearranged.

Now if someone changes their limits in scene without being asked, but completely of their own volition, I see no harm in accommodating that.

Yay politeness and compassion. It requires more skill than bulling your way thoughtlessly through life. Which is such a lazy, universal temptation. Is it more appropriate to condemn or pity "manipulative jerks"?

62

unskilled “tops” with unclean sounds, possibly never sterilized even once?
this risk taking bottom is lucky that they got a blowie from some rando and still walked away from this veritable germ fest unscathed, but, then again, they at least had the right kind of lube.

LW: dude, you HAVE TO let them know that they are doing it wrong, before somebody really gets hurt! your question was where and how, but do it, and soon. don’t let them think that their buttesex lube is good enough, what in the actual barf?

additionally, i feel that Luluisme in comment 17 wisely answered the issue brought up in 9. i would only add that it was once a traditional, old guard type method that was more prevalent in the days before the Internet connectivity that kinky folks are privy to today, somewhat like an apprenticeship, if you will.
TheLastComment, i totally feel you, i am not inclined that way either, so i would also have a hard time submitting as a form of education.
on that note, on to my kink shamey soapbox i always jump on for sounds!
humans with female anatomy, sound at dire risk!
oh yes, i went there, and i don’t care if you do it, you do you, have fun in your diaper, i hope that is also your kink. without going into great detail, because all you need to do is open a comparative cross section of the urinary tract to see the 2 fold disadvantage XX has over XY (yes, a chromosomal generalization, i know) in this game, you will see that gravity is a bitch that is taking away all of your fun, not me. add the fact the the female urethra is a fraction of the length of a male, hey, at least it is usually near the clit, there could be some sensation involved, for those mere centimeters before you are directly in the bladder and opening yourself up to a really fun UTI... oh wait! you just stretched it out and now you are constantly getting infected, your kidneys are fucked and, why did you open it on purpose again? it is just a constant, dribbling mess anytime you are not literally upside down.
don’t let someone talk you into it because they saw it in a porn, for the love of all that is holey, i beseech you, random kinkster!