WOE, I am so sorry this happened to you. Grub of a man.
Reminds me a little of my mother’s sorry, in as much as I’ve learnt a secret of hers only since she has entered a nursing home. The secret doesn’t involve incest, it involves a catholic priest. And she told me.
I suggest you don’t say anything to your mother, if she needs to clear these sad and horrible experiences, she will let you know.
I sense my mother being in a home, has given her a lot of time for self reflection. Maybe the same will happen for your mother. Ask her open ended questions, ‘ are there things you want to talk about mom?’ That sort of thing.
You, you have to keep processing this new information. Maybe return to therapy, help you move thru it.

Sorry story.

Agree with @1.

I'm very sad that he did this to so many people, and limit questions to open-ended ones to let your mom take the lead.

I'm so glad you referenced Leaving Neverland, Dan. I watched it just last night, and it is devastating, and also massively important. I was abused only once as a child, by a stranger, and equally as impactful as the abuse was the fact that my amazing and wonderful parents (not sarcasm) allowed me to recant my story and lie to them that it had never happened for nearly twenty years. Not because they were bad people, but because we all so desperately wanted it to not be true, that it was easier for all of us to compartmentalize and lie about it for so long - until in my early 20s, that ticking time bomb went off, and I had to come to terms, or die.

I think I'm with @1 on this one as far as what to do as a practical matter.

You've worked hard to come to terms with what he did you you. Congratulations.

I think the best thing to do is to allow your mother to have come to terms with this in her own way. If she feels the need to discuss it with you, she knows she can.

Beyond that, it's her business, for her to handle as she sees fit. I'd respect that, and keep silent unless asked.

She's in a nursing home now and the most important thing is that she know that she's loved and with her family. Which it sounds like you're already doing.

WOE you say you want answers but don't your already know? Your grandfather was a charismatic abuser who pulled the wool over everyone's eyes for years. Your mother lived with him, was raised by him. Is it so hard to see that he spent years brainwashing her? That she didn't tell you the truth because she wanted to protect him because she loved him despite the horrible things he did to her?

Your grandfather is dead and your mother is not doing well. Burn the photos and try to treat your Mom with compassion.

Don't try and make her tragedy about you.

Excellent, sensitive answer to this harrowing question. I wish the very best possible outcome for the letter writer, whatever she decides about confronting her ill and elderly mother.

Regarding repressed memories - It’s comforting to think they don’t exist and that if you don’t remember being abused, then you weren’t. However, even if repressed memories are complete bullshit, there are at least two scenarios under which a person wouldn’t remember the abuse. The first is if it happened while they were extremely young, before the age that memories become conscious and coherent. That age varies widely among individuals - some people have clear memories going back to toddlerhood, and for others coherent memories don’t kick in until well into the grade school years. Its entirely possible a child could be abused in early childhood and not remember it.

Less common but well documented are cases of DID (Dissacociative Identity Disorder), which used to be sensationally called Multiple Personality Disorder. Some people, when they suffer severe and repeated abuse, learn to avoid the pain by disassociating or entering a fugue state. Rather like being under the influence of the kinds of drugs they give you at a sedation dentistry appointment, a person is technically conscious and able to respond but is not forming long-term memories and will have little or no recall of events. If you are having trouble believing this, think about blackouts. The lights are on, but nobody’s home.

From a personal perspective, I have long suspected I may have been sexually abused. I had an awful childhood and adolescence, and only very slowly recovered. In my twenties and thirties, I learned about how sexually abused people act and respond - I learned both in therapy and in school for a medical field degree. I was startled and also relieved to recognize so very many of my own destructive behaviors. And I’m
Not talking about just general things like substance abuse or depression. I mean that I recognized my own behavior in very specific situations (like childbirth) that had been researched and described by experts in the field of child abuse survival.

I will never know if I was sexually abused as a young child, because the prime suspect is dead. That being the case, I don’t care to interrogate my surviving family members who might have something to say. My problems could be adequately explained by other events - including multiple rapes that I most certainly DO remember at later dates. Maybe I was never abused as a small child.

How do I even decide if it matters? Isn’t the work I have done and continue to do towards recovery the same, anyway? I don’t know. Shouldn’t I just dedicate myself to that work and not worry about the possible awful deeds of a dead man who can’t hurt anyone anymore?

These questions never end for those of us who have survived what you (and maybe I) have survived, dear letter writer. We have to make peace with our history over and over again, at different stages of our lives. My love to you. Strength and healing to you.

I feel sometimes that the entire world was raped as children and I will never understand why we as a society do not end the lives of the people who rape children. For example, why does the Catholic Church still exist and thrive when it is the largest rape organization in the history of the world? I don't believe it happened to me but my stepfather was psychopath (and a minister) who allegedly raped my sister and definitely physically abused my mother. And my maternal grandfather? He raped his female children and made them have sex with him in exchange for the privilege of going to school. Most (but not all) of his sons went on to rape children, too, theirs and others. My great aunt had a son by her father who was told what he was at some point and he too became a rapist. Me, I vowed never to get married and never have children and know without a doubt that if anyone tries to rape me I will literally rip their eyes off and cut their penis off and make them eat it. I really don't understand what the fuck is wrong with humanity, but I for one believe the universe will be better off when humans no longer exist. Humans are an aberration that never should have happened and we are deeply sick and disturbed animals that do horrific and heinous things to each other for no fucking reason at all.

Let your poor mother have peace.

LW- so sorry you have to relive all of this once again.
It is my observation from life in general and years in SAA and SLAA 12-step groups that abusive parents of any kind are often idolized by their children. Things can be more complex when there’s sex involved.
Manipulative, charismatic parents have a lifelong manipulation experience they acquired in a young age. Sometimes they model themselves after their own parents, though not always the case.

As for talking with mom, give her the option to respond. Nothing wrong with you bringing up the issue once again after 25 years or so since your last attempt. Keep it general, at least for starter, and see where she goes with it. She may open up, she may deny once again.
Assess how you feel about her reaction. Do you feel she gives you more information that you want to know? If you think she’s still hiding stuff would it be worthwhile for you to bring it up?

If so I would advocate the gentle yet firm approach. Tell her you would like to know more about it for your own sake. Assure her you will still support her in her last years, that you’re not angry with her. If need be go ahead and tell her you found some pictures that call for an explanation.

As for Dan’s advice, I’d say at this point don’t watch the Michael Jackson doc. While abuse is indeed abuse your situation is different. It is a family tragedy that has been going on for generations. It is likely grandpa picked it up for someone else. It’s hard to have compassion for the abuser, yet sometimes this is the case. As someone who heard abusers talk about their act, I understood what they said about the shame associated with the after the act, yet the compulsive need to do it all again “one more time.”

Not sure if Michael Jackson suffered sexual abuse as a child, though I can certainly see him sexualizing his lost childhood, youth, and very sadly also adulthood.

Lots of pain in these comments, lots of pain. Still, we grow.

Yes raindrop.
Hugs to you all sharing deep wounds here.
I really do not feel WOE should bring it up now with her mother, CMD. My mother mentioned her ‘secret’ twice now, the second time short responses at my questions, and that’s it. I offer to listen if she has anything to share. Nothing. Not one insight into her nearly 98 yr old life. Doesn’t mean she’s not talking with herself about it.
My mother is this weak frail in pain old woman, hanging in as long as she can. Bit scared of God I think, so she’s doing her purgatory down here.
These older women are not like baby boomers +, share share share. So one has to work with who they are.
Misanon @6 has broached it, for WOE’s Mother this is caught up with her love for her dad. He would have groomed her from an early age so to her the relationship with her father included his sexual violations. If she hasn’t shared these truths with her daughter, that’s her need, help to keep her psyche together.
This woman was a victim of one of the most heinous crimes, a parent’s total betrayal. That WOE’s mother got a separate life together enough to breed, says a lot about this woman’s great inner strength.

Undoubtedly, the most difficult part of this story to process are the many graphic Polaroid photos of sex between her mother as a young, but adult, woman and her grandfather. Particularly the sense that she is captured as being happy while giving her father a blow job or in other sexual situations, and the fact that these were taken over a period of years. It is easy to say that her mother was expertly manipulated, so that one is not seeing genuine pleasure in the context of sexual activity, but that is the impression the photos captured, and we are not wired to disbelieve their eyes. One also wonders how her mother came to possess these photos. Did she ask for them at the time, pocket some without his knowledge, or discover them after her father's death?

All we do know is that these photos are a window into a troubled and complex relationship, which will play out until WOE's mother passes away. But for WOE, I would recommend she speak to a therapist about this discovery, which has not only unearthed things from her past, but complicated her relationship with her mother.

At any rate, these photos are not WOE's to burn. I think she should place them in an envelope (or back in the envelope in which they were kept) and given them to her mother. I am sure there will be any number of things WOE will be bringing to her from her home, so these need not be specially delivered. WOE's mother will know or suspect that WOE knows the subject matter of the photos, and this would be the entre into a conversation that WOE would like to have with her.

As for the photos themselves, if her mother no longer wants them, she will dispose of them herself, and if not, those photos will be there for WOE to burn in few years.

I'm not sure if it's inappropriate to mention in this context, but this letter writer is incredibly good at expressing herself. One of the clearest, most well-written letters to Savage Love in a long time.

No SA @13; don’t give them to her mother. The mother left what she wanted to leave in her home. Heavens. No. No.
Burn them.WOE. Don’t look at them again, and as you burn them clear the path forward for both you and your mother in your heart. Say some words which release both of you from this sick man’s deeds.

@13 Good point. I should've mentioned that if WOE has or had a psychiatrist it might be a good time to call them. They can help her make sense of this and refind her peace.

I disagree about giving the photos to her Mom. What would she do with them? I can't imagine they would do anything but hurt her. And what if someone else finds them? I mean there are people out there facing charges for having naked pictures of themselves as teens on their computers, I can't imagine what legal hell having straight up child porn could bring.

@15/LavaGirl: You have no idea about the circumstances under which WOE’s mother left her home. Decisions to move an elderly parent often happen quickly, which doesn’t allow a person to go through their personal items. Burning these photos is not a therapeutic path available to WOE at this time. Certainly not because a recent movie showed a victim of Michael Jackson do so. These photos do not belong to her. If WOE is in any doubt, I would recommend treating her mother as someone with autonomy to make her own decisions without pressure.

@16/msanonymous: WOE’s letter suggest that her mother was an adult when these photos were taken. And given an estimate of her mother’s age (80+), and the history of instant cameras, WOE’s mother would have be at least 20 when the first photos were taken, and by the time Polaroids were in widespread use she would have been in her 30s. And she has kept these photos for 40, 50, or 60 years.

I don’t think we can understand the significance of these photos to WOE’s mother. I also believe that something you said in @6 is very true. WOE should avoid making these photos about herself. Burning them for her own psychic benefit would be to do just that.

It is possible the mother could be haunted wondering if anyone's going to find (or has found) the photos. But I agree with LavaGirl. Also, what would the mother do with them in the nursing home? Not many hiding places.

Here's where a white lie would be in order: "Mother, in going through things to help you move, I didn't get a chance to go through the drawers in the armoires, and unfortunately everything got tossed out and incinerated. I hope there wasn't anything of value."

Might be the best sleep the mother will have in months.

@17, SA: If those photos were important to WOE’s mother, she would have kept them close by her.
She may have not destroyed them herself, so one day her daughter would find out the truth.
What do you mean burning these photos are not a therapeutic path forward at this time. Of course it is. It is the best way forward.
Get rid of them.
Why give that man any more power now, at the end of WOE’s mother’s life by bringing up these photos? Not only that, contaminating her new space by taking them there.

Poor WOE, no one should ever see that. She should burn the photos immediately and stuff them down the memory hole as best she can. How her mother came to terms with the abuse is her mother's problem, not hers. If she needs to talk about it, a therapist seems a better option. Sending a hug, WOE.

Gueralinda and Xina, sending hugs to you too.

I like the idea of digging up his corpse and setting fire to it.

@20/LavaGirl: WOE found the photos in a draw. Although we don’t know in which room, it seems very unlikely that these were found anywhere other than her mother’s bedroom, which for most people is our inner scantum. That strikes me a close enough to suggest their importance.

As I mentioned, because these photos are not WOE’s burning them without permission violates her mother’s autonomy, so that is simply not a viable option, if she wants to respect her mother’s choices.

You have decided that these photos have (negative) power over her mother and that her mother would not want these photos. If anything, the evidence suggests otherwise; she obtained them and kept them for decades. As disturbing as it may be to contemplate, WOE’s mother may want these photos, and there is reason to believe that she may have enjoyed looking as these images.

We don’t have to guess as to her rationale for keeping these photos, WOE can speak to her if she has any doubts. But no matter what we think of these images and the relationship between her mother and grandfather, we cannot chose how her mother should feel about those events in her life. Possibly, with therapy 40 years ago, her mother might have felt differently, but if for whatever reason, her mother looks back fondly on those events, and for that reason kept those photos, it is not for us, and I believe WOE too, to supplant our choices for her mother’s.

Looks back fondly on those events!! SA. What are you saying? How perverse to even think that.

WOE can ask that question, SA, because she is caught up in this generational abuse.
WOE has every right to dispose of these photos, because she is the one who will be sitting with her mother thru this last stage of her life, loving and protecting her. Why remind her of the violations which occurred decades ago. Why present photos, when I’m sure WOE’s mother has imprinted images in her mind, just as WOE does.
Don’t drive yourself crazy asking these questions, WOE. He groomed your mother and violated her. Leave the sick bastard out of her final years. He’s done enough damage.

At the risk of being called a liar, please don't dismiss repressed memories too hastily. This can and does happen, and it's far too easy for skepticism to be used as a tool against victims. I displayed a large number of red flags for sexual abuse but nobody in my family wanted to see it (my mother had been sexually abused and was determined it wouldn't happen to me, so to this day she won't admit it).

It took working with a good therapist for me to recall the abuse, some 20 years after it happened, and it was because of the ticking time bomb Dan mentioned. He convinced me that I couldn't tell anyone (because I wanted it, because no one would believe me, because my parents and God would love me less), so I just buried the memories. But the signs were still there. They were there in the outgoing girl who became shy and fearful, who freaked out at being in the same room with a man; in the teenager who unconsciously sent boys the signal she was unapproachable; in the woman who would shut down when touched a certain way and cried when she tried to have sex.

I buried those memories for self-protection, because as a child I couldn't reconcile them with 'loving uncle.' As an adult, the wound was still festering, and recalling the abuse allowed me to start healing, this time with the advantage of not needing to rely on my family. The thing is, the time delay allows people a convenient excuse not to believe me if doing so is uncomfortable for them.

I'm not saying you have to take every story of repressed memories at face value. I am asking that you not dismiss them all. That nagging feeling that there's a memory blocked away could very well be right.

Let LW decide what she wants to do in terms of approaching mom or not and how. As others already pointed out she seems to be an intelligent and thoughtful person, once again left to struggle with heavy duty family secrets. FWIW, it seems like she did not pass on the abusive pattern torch to her own family, which is already a huge success on her part.

VP @ 27
Repressed memories are a real thing and I do trust you.

The problem with the concept of repressed memories is, the effort to uncover repressed memories can lead to the formation of false memories. It's something that has unfortunately happened a lot in the history of therapy. For a horrifying case of false memories look up Gerald Amirault. The "victims" may still believe their memories are real.

I suspect it may have happened to my mother. She saw a therapist who I believe is unreliable. Her response to my Mom's complaints about arguing with my Dad just to encourage divorce. And she came out of therapy with a lot of memories of abuse from my grandfather. Many seem rather vague, like him walking around the house at night wearing pajamas that are too transparent. Nobody who knew him seems at all convinced that he was abusive. I never really knew him that much. I don't really know what happened I can imagine she might be trying to come up with some kind of justification for her substandard relationship with her father other than him being emotionally distant.

If Dan, or anyone else, is interested: Elizabeth Loftus, one of the memory experts cited in the psmag article, endorsed a book exploring the possibility that Jerry Sandusky was the victim of a recovered memory panic similar to the Satanic ritual abuse cases from the late 80's. Here's her quote: “If potential readers are convinced that Jerry Sandusky is guilty, they need to read The Most Hated Man in America. This meticulously researched, provocative, and wonderfully written book by Mark Pendergrast, an enormously important contributor to the repressed memory debate, will certainly make them see another side. Maybe they will think twice.” I recommend at least checking out the skeptic.com review of the book, which at minimum exposes a lot of what's considered common knowledge about the case to be much more complicated than we think, and occasionally simply false.

fucking heavy

Repressed memories is unprovable or provable but nevertheless overzealous psychiatrists and or confused patients have ruined lives over misguided efforts. Just saying.

Sublime - Have you ever been sexually molested by a parent? If not, STFU about the photos. I'm with Lava - burn them yesterday...

Hard disagree with some of Dan’s advice - survivors don’t need to watch Leaving Neverland. EVERYONE ELSE should watch it, but honestly that sort of thing can be so potentially triggering and so potentially devastating to survivors of sexual violence that I think it has to be the choice of each survivor - imo they should only do it if they think they’ll benefit in some way and also have supports in place just in case.

I thought I was resourced / supported enough to read the survivor statement in the Brock Turner case and I spent like a day and half after that just managing my ptsd symptoms. So no, LW, know that you are not alone but don’t watch Leaving Neverland.

@33/JibeHo: It’s not about the photos it’s a question of personal autonomy and who gets to makes those calls for older adults. And if you don’t like my comments, don’t read them.

LW - my grandfather also abused two generations of girls in my family, including me and my mother.

A lot of the details are different but I also spent part of my 20s trying to convince my mom and her sister to feel differently about their abuse. With limited to no success. They both were able to compartmentalize it - there was their father and then there was this man who did these bad things. I finally made my peace with them and decided that if my mother wants to remember her childhood as idyllic, it’s not my place to argue her out of that belief. (Now if she tried to talk me out of my feelings about my abuse, that’d be totally different but to her credit, she doesn’t do that).

No wonder you’re devastated and confused by this discovery. One of the shittiest parts of growing up in an incestuous family is just dealing with the weight of the secrets, at least in my experience. And you suddenly have discovered a new level of ugly secret. Ugh.

My instinct is to not confront your mother again, unless you think it would be beneficial for both of you (and from your letter, it sounds like it wouldn’t help your mother). But I wonder if you can find a way to somehow disperse the weight of this secret without confronting her mom. Maybe doing a ritual burning of the photos in the presence of or with the support of people who know YOUR truth.

Sending all the good wishes to you. This Internet stranger is on your side. Good luck!

I just read the exchanges between SA and LG and I see SA’s point, so I revise my suggestion above about ritually burning the photos - no reason not to wait until after her mother dies to destroy them.

As a survivor of incest, I’m very aware of how actual, real life reactions to abuse can vary widely from our cultural stories about how one should react to abuse. I appreciate SA’s bringing that to the forefront. It’s not our jobs to police LW’s mother. And it’s honestly not our job to understand why she kept them. We don’t know. LW doesn’t know. All we know is that she kept them and LW found them.

What can you possibly hope to accomplish by bringing thes photos to light in your mother’s last days. No matter what the “truth” is, it’s bound to be exceptionally complicated and probably damaging in ways you can’t predict. Your mother has had years to deal with this and has undoubtably reached an accommodation that works for her. Let her live with it, and offer support whenever she seems like she needs it. You may want to say, “Mom, we don’t have space to keep all the things you accumulated in your life...is there anything special you want or you want us to have to be sure we don’t dispose of?”

Sublime,

You are way offf base here. Either Mom is in a care home and just left those photos for daughter to deal with in purpose OR Mom was out in a home bc daughter is POA or next of kin. If the latter, by definition she has the legal and moral right to dispose of them just as she does to dispose of Mom’s other property.

Also, OP should have a trusted friend help go through any future photos or papers so they see the items first and discard anything that would scar OP.

To reiterate:

Either Mom has capacity, in which case, she should have warned daughter, or, more likely, she does not have capacity and so any decisions are up to daughter.

As for her having positive feelings about the photos: as someone who has worked with many sex abuse victims and done a ton of elder care planning, it’s far, far more likely Mom kept them as evidence of who he really was. I’ve seen this many times. Never have I ever seen them kept for the reasons you suggest.

As someone who has had to hold client’s hands when they discovered this exact type of photo and worse: unless it is evidence of child porn, burn it. Immediately.

If it is child porn, contact the FBI or local LEOs (if they are competent). This is particularly true in any state where everyone is deemed a mandatory reporter of child sexual abuse.

If in doubt OP and you read this: if you have a POA from your mom or a court has appointed you guardian, burn em. Totally up to you to act in Mom’s stead. If you don’t have that and Mom has capacity, as her what to do with old photos no one wants. Such as photos of grandpa.

OP If you read this and Mom has an attorney who prepared her incapacity and estate docs, call them and ask if you have power to discard/destroy property. That’s where you should start.

Before you decide what to do, make sure you have authority to do so.

Everyone, including myself and Dan, is jumping the gun here.

I’m not sure what authority, if any, you have to even be going through Mom’s stuff. Ask her attorney. If none and there’s no Power or Attorney, seek a guardianship through the court in the county where she resides prior to going in the home.

Before I head off to a nursing home to meet a client, I want to point out that the only fact we know about Mom’s intent and her wishes is that she wanted the abuse from her father kept private. She had a chance to talk to her daughter and choose her privacy through silence.

So if it comes down to a choice between erring on the side of protecting Mom’s known wish to keep this secret and a situation where she doesn’t have capacity to decide what to do with the photos/her capacity is questionable, go with what is certain. Protect her wish for privacy and destroy the photos.

The only situation where these should be preserved is if Mom absolutely has capacity and daughter can ask her without frisking trauma.

Y’all who are in the don’t burn camp seem to think daughter can safely store these till Mom dies and then burn them. From experience, that’s naive. I’ve seen this and worse pulled out of safe deposit boxes (by court order with a state employee supervising), out of locked personal safes, etc.

Finally, daughter is not, as far as I can tell, immortal. What happens to those photos if she’s hit by a car in the way to see Mom?

I’ve even seen things taken out of attorney files - usually the one safe place for anything like this - by court order

OP, do not kick the fan down the road! And don’t assume you have absolute, immutable authority. If the state or other family gets involved, there is a risk the photos could be discovered.

Mom should have dealt with this herself. But I’m sure, like far too many of the aging populations, she was in denial about her mental and physical states.

Sorry for typos. Small screen, middle aged eyes, dimly lit courtroom.

WOE: Such a terrible story - wishing you and your mother much healing.

You wonder if your mother kept the photos because they were fond memories. Here's an alternative narrative, in case it helps.

--- [start of speculative narrative]---

Your grandfather took the photos, he owned them. They were hard proof of his wrong-doing, so he kept them hidden, and they remained hidden until he died. Your mother found them in the very same way you have found them now - in a drawer. She didn't "hold on to them" for decades because they represent "fond memories"; she found them decades later, just as she lost her father. She then had to process the refreshed memories of what happened to her (terrible abuse? forbidden love? both?) at the same time as she grieved for her lost father. That explains why "she kind of fell apart when he died" - she had a lot more to process than pure grief for the loss of a loved one.

She couldn't deal with the photos. They were naked recollections of terrible abuse/forbidden love/both. They were also photos of her father who had just died. She couldn't muster the courage to just burn them. So she put them in a drawer to deal with later when she felt stronger. She never had the courage to go back to them. She didn't actively and fondly kept them, she buried them out of sight.

--- [end of speculative narrative] ----

I don't know if this is what happened, but I hope it may help you deal with these photos and all the feelings they trigger. I would certainly recommend against discussing them with your mother. Maybe you would learn a bit more about what happened (terrible abuse/forbidden love/ both?) and maybe that would help you deal with your trauma (or maybe it would add to it). But the risks of adding further trauma to your mother seem immense to me.

I agree with the suggestions above of burning the photos. I suspect you will find it difficult to do - these are photos of your young mother, part of her history (and of yours), and she may not live long. Here's a thought experiment that may help you muster the courage for that, as well as helping your understand your mother (and yourself).

Imagine you die tomorrow. Your loved ones will find those photos in whatever drawer you now keep them. They recognise your mother & grandfather in them. They know there is a history of abuse in your family, and that your grandfather abused you too. How will they interpret the fact you "fondly held on to these photos"? You see what I am getting at...?

I recommend leaving it be. I found out about my mom's sexual abuse as a child when I was in my teens, and had a huge reaction of anger, sadness and betrayal. My mother was patient with me and helped me to deal with my feelings but now I still regret forcing her to dredge up those memories that she had already processed and made peace with. Fortunately, my mom is still young and I have all the time since my teens and all the time in the future to buffer the damage I did to her. Your mother is at the end of her life; don't make her accountable for your discomfort with how she relates to her own experience.

I hold a deeply unpopular view of these incidents of sex between adults and teenagers or even adults and younger kids. First, I think that adults should just keep their hands to themselves and never get sexually involved with kids. It's never a good idea to start such a relationship, because the potential for damage is so great. Adults should always be better than that, and should respect the limits we put around kids because the limits are there for good reasons.

For the now-grown adults who were involved in those relationships when they were kids, though, I defer to their valuation of the experiences, and their feelings about the matter, and don't try to make them feel what I want them to feel or adopt my view of what they experienced. I've known several people now who had sex with adults when they were under age and who still think of those relationships warmly, and say they were not forced, not coerced, and not damaged in any way by it. And I don't think I have the right to insist that their experience was false or wrong, or to try to convince them that they were abused.

People have the right to their own experience. Other people don't have the right to damage that.

Lw, you said there were Polaroid of your mom engaged in sex acts with the one that spawned her. This implies two very disturbing things, one that someone else was present to take the pictures, two that he was likely involved in a child porno ring. Photos are very damning evidence and as far as I know they are the one type of photo you can-t fake. You might be able to use these to break up a child porno ring, especially since you can identify approximately when they were taken you might be able to identify who else was involved (the photographer), and save many children in the process. I'm sorry for this tragedy you and your mother have managed to overcome. Continue to be strong and do what is right for you.

@ 47
I thought there was a mention of a mirror reflection. I doubt grandpa would have sold or exchanged the photos if only for fear of him or other(s) being recognized.

Sportlandia above said it sweet, WOE.
Let your mother have peace.
What I’ve seen with my mother, that after most of a life time being frugal yet enjoying it, this change has been a deep shock for her.
All those pieces of her reflected back that were in her home, are no longer there. She wishes for hardly any object, from her home, to be around her now.
Stages of letting go. That’s how I see it.
WOE, how I’ve dealt with my mother’s secret, not as dark as yours, is to see how it fits, and let it go. Like with your relative, he is now dead. The perpetrator. Another charismatic narcissist. Otherwise.. He’d be off to jail like Cardinal Pell.
not my life. Even though she is my mother. Children know what they know about their parents, and lots they don’t know.
Tear those photos to bits, then burn them and his power.
Be with your mother now, loving her, admiring her ability to still be alive after all she was forced to do, and talk about happy things.
I’ve been listening to ‘South Pacific’ last few days while I paint. “ Happy Talk” is one of the songs. Hail to two great music makers. Rogers & Hammerstein.
WOE, hugs to you and let us know how you are going. Please do some therapy again, if hard to process. Don’t let him take away anymore Sunshine, from you or your mother.

Lots of very wise and compassionate and good responses here. My heart goes out to WOE, her mother, CleoGirl, braynie, xina, Gueralinda, and all the rest.

I hadn't thought of Plural's speculative theory @43, but it makes good sense. Whatever reason mom had for holding onto the photos and however long she had them, I don't see how her being given them now by her daughter would be any good. They've already gone several rounds over the abuse/incest, and there's no way that WOE could bring them or bring them up in conversation without opening old wounds as mom is sick and perhaps near the end of life. For all we know, the mom could also be dealing with some dementia or might be in the near future, and that won't help the problem, as mom then won't be in sound mind and able to make her own decisions.

My best guess is that the mom never intended those photos to be seen by anyone, but she either forgot about them or didn't remember or have time to get rid of them herself when she became incapacitated. I know that a lot of people's sexual secrets are uncovered when they are old and ailing and incapacitated or after their death, when someone else goes through their things. Many of us have sexual mementos we don't want our children to find, but we can't bring ourselves to destroy something that was once very meaningful to us. I have explicit letters from an old boyfriend I really don't want my children to read. But they mean too much to me to get rid of them. I think from time to time about making sure to destroy them before I need to be put into a nursing home, but I'm aware that I may forget about their existence or not be able to get to them to destroy them--and that's not taking into consideration a sudden death in my middle age that I wouldn't see coming, leaving my daughters to stumble on lots of the details of their mother's sex life (my sex life doesn't include incest or abuse, thank goodness, but in addition to the kink, there is an illicit relationship which I know would give pain to my kids to discover).

Maybe WOE's mom didn't want to think about them and dredge up memories (including the painful conversations she had with WOE when WOE was in her 20s), and so had settled into a sort of head-in-the-sand avoidance. In any case, there is no easy or not-uncomfortable way to get those photos to her and no way to get her permission to burn them.
So they and their burden effectively belong to WOE now, and I think if it would help bring WOE some piece, she should burn them.

Dan, the APA is misquoted in the piece you linked to from Psychology Today. The APA does NOT state there is "little or no empirical empirical support" for traumatic amnesia. The APA does not take a position on this matter, but instead summarises the debates over recovered memories.

The full quote is that: "Many clinicians who work with trauma victims believe that this dissociation is a person's way of sheltering himself or herself from the pain of the memory. Many researchers argue, however, that there is little or no empirical support for such a theory."

https://www.apa.org/topics/trauma/memories

Furthermore, the Psychology Today article is not written by a psychologist, but by a journalist. Obviously, the Pacific Standard piece is also written by a journalist.

You really should correct the record here. Telling survivors of child sexual abuse that they can't trust their memories, based on a blog written by a journalist misquoting the APA, is very poor form.

@51 - I've watched demonstrations of memories being successfully implanted, and have read a lot of the recent research on human memory. And none of us can trust our memories. Human memory is easily manipulated, intentionally and accidentally, and is rarely accurate.

The hypothesis of "repressed memory" was taught by academics as factual, when it was not supported by any research. It was taught in a time when academics didn't themselves know how maleable human memory is, and how easy it is to accidentally install a fake memory if you are a therapist who doesn't understand the mechanics of installing memories. And a fake memory is experienced as just as real as memories based on actual experience - so a lot of victims of those therapists remain convinced that they were sexually abused, even when real-world evidence has shown that the "memories" were impossible, the events couldn't have happened.

There is a lot of real sexual abuse in the world, as we all know. We all have friends or relatives who've been the victims of abusers. It's a serious problem that needs to be addressed both legally and culturally. Manufacturing false memories of abuse helps no one, and muddies the conversation.

@40, "call the (attorney) and ask if you have power to discard/destroy property. "

Oh FFS, no! Figure out what is best for you and your mother and then just do it. Don't spend $350/hour for an attorney to complicate the situation. There is 0% chance of anyone wanting to pursue a civil or criminal case for destruction of such "property" or "evidence" of a crime committed long ago by a dead guy.

It does bring home the point: If you died tomorrow, are there photos, files, emails or mementos you wouldn't want to be found?

More importantly, are there such items your surviving family wouldn't want to see?

@51 - regardless of your opinion on this issue, Dan has misquoted the APA. It does not take the position that he claims. He should correct the article.

“Let mom have peace” and “what’s the point now” are certainly legit. I still think LW’s peace of mind is the one that should count in this case, and it may not always contradict mom’s.
She should weigh all the possibilities including the one giving mom a chance to talk about the subject, or even confront her about it if she's so inclined. Some people may wish to clean the slate upon their imminent death. Some abusers may say, “I wish I would have been caught earlier,” mom may say, “so sorry I let it happen to you too, I’m glad we can talk about it now.”

I’m baffled by the copyright argument. LW found the pictures; she is the one dealing once again with pain, memories, and lots of questions after stumbling on the fresh hard-core evidence. If she wants to burn those pictures yesterday then she should do it, if there’s a ceremony involved it’s her business.

Don’t forget that LW was also raped. Telling her to keep quiet now because what’s the point should not be the only option.

Some really good advice here. I strongly recommend LW not watch the Michael Jackson movie. It sounds very triggering for survivors of sexual abuse.

I think Dan needs to issue a retraction/correction for the APA citation. Charges of false "repressed memories" keep many survivors of childhood abuse from speaking about their experiences.

At the same time, though, Dan is right that I always knew. I always knew my father was in love with me and we didn't have a normal father-child relationship, but it was only through looking back at my childhood memories that I could identify the times of actual abuse. Because I told people when I was younger that I didn't remember anything (because it wasn't notable from a child's perspective), people accuse me of creating false memories to substantiate the idea that my family was abusive. In reality, there is plenty of evidence from third parties that my parents were abusive in many clear ways; the sexual abuse was not the beginning or the end of it. Still, these "devil's advocates" telling victims to not trust themselves are doing more damage than they can imagine.

LW's experiences are far more common than people would like to believe. In my family, both my father and my grandfather (dad's dad) were known to have sexually abused the female children in the family, but no one was willing to talk about it. I'm so proud of the people like LW that have processed these terrible experiences and faced them, so they could end the cycle of abuse.

@8 I'm so sorry you've been through such terrible pain - your feelings about humanity parallel my own. I see we have potential, but we do far too many horrendous things and the weight of the monstrousness is just too much. I wish I could offer better comfort, but all I can do is weep with you.

I'm so sorry you're dealing with all this LW. I may have a couple insights into your mom's behavior (obviously just guesses) based on my own experiences.

A bit of background on me: my family has a history of sexual abuse as well. My paternal great-grandfather was sexually abusive to his children, as well as to my grandmother's children, some of whom then raped/abused each other. My teenage cousin sexually abused me over a period of time - about age 3-4. Some memories just cut off when things started to get particularly bad. I was also sexually abused around age 5-6 by a neighbor and the same thing occurred. I've been told by therapists it's called dissociating (I've also done it in a couple extremely stressful situations as an adult). I know there has been a lot of damage done by ppl attempting to help recall "repressed memories" (satanic panic as others mentioned), but there is by no means a concensus that repressed memories don't occur. Personally, though, I'm glad for what I don't remember.

As an adult my reckoning with my past has caused my family to open up a bit. I found out my father was aware that my uncle, his brother, raped my aunt (his sister, who then raped my younger uncle). Even though my parents found out about my cousin (uncle's son) sexually abusing me, when I posited my uncle may have abused my cousin my dad wouldn't even consider it. My paternal grandfather committed suicide when my dad was quite young and my uncle was like a father to him. My parents once found my cousin had changed the locks on his door and locked us in. They figured out what was going on (at that age I thought they misunderstood and believed we were "experimenting"). After that, though, they let my aunt and uncle look after us and when they got back my cousin and I were alone upstairs - something they'd made a rule against. I think my dad compartmentalized the sexual abuse "that happened" (not thinking of it as something his brother did or a part of who he was) and the brother and father figure he loved. He just wanted to think of him as a caring brother and though it's hard for me to understand how he could leave me to be watched in a situation where I got abused again I can't really blame him.

My first relationship was a little over 3 years, but I was never ready to have sex. After I broke up with the guy he raped me. A couple of months later I had consensual sex with him (though I cried the whole time) and even got together with him in college for drinks to "remember old times". I was also drugged and raped by a "friend" in college. I avoided him, but months later had consensual sex with him. I hated myself for having consensual sex with these guys and couldn't understand it. A part of me still doesn't cause I feel like it not only damaged me more, but let them off the hook. I've had to unpack this in therapy and come to the conclusion that it was a form of denial. I didn't want to believe I was as out of control as I felt as a child (I had once sworn I'd die before I'd ever let anything like that happen to me again). I had sex with these guys out of denial that I wasn't in control and in the case of my ex tried (and for a little while succeeded) in compartmentalizing what he did/my anger so I could pretend like it never happened.

My guess is that your mom didn't want to believe her dad was a bad guy who would inappropriately go after his daughter and she probably doesn't understand all her feelings or everything she's done. Going along as an adult may have allowed her to ignore some of his abuse/grooming as a child. Or perhaps it was easier for her to feel loved by her father and in control if she made herself believe she wanted it than it was to think her father, who she loved, would be so selfishas to hurt her. I'm sorry her denial caused her to not protect you.

I think bringing it up now would just cause conflict as it seems your mother has chosen to deny to anyone else the extent of what happened. I'd be there for your mother and not being this up so that an argument is that one of the last things going on. Otherwise make sure you're taking care of yourself and doing what you need to help you process this.

TL:DR my own post - sexual abuse is extremely complicated, even more so when it is a family member/someone you love. Your mom probably doesn't even understand her own feelings and actions, particularly considering it seems she's avoided this subject rather than trying to process it honestly. It's highly unlikely she's going to come to any understanding at this point in life, so there isn't any explanation, understanding or closure she can offer you. Try to make the most of what time you have left with her and remember what she was able to give you as a mother. Find a therapist who can help you process this and go to friends for support.

@19 I like this idea for dealing with the pics and putting the mom's mind at rest. It made me think if the LW wanted to test the waters about talking she could also say something like, "I noticed there were a bunch of pics and papers on the table, in your dresser and in your closet. It's taking so long to go through the house, is there a quick way I can deal with some of those piles? Can I just get rid of some, bring you others and which ones should I go through?"

@57 I think that is a good point. If the LW wants to bring it up she has every right. Her mother didn't protect her properly bc of her own issues and that is also something the LW may want to address. If the LW wishes to confront the mom she shouldn't be told not to. I doubt she'll get much insight into the mom's thoughts or motivations, but it may help LW to put everything on the table before there's no longer a chance.
I also don't understand the copyright thing. These are highly emotional and personal family cringe pictures. The LW was obviously tasked with cleaning out mom's place. Even if someone somehow found out, whose gonna go after her for handling the pics as she sees fit? There's no other legal issue. The mom was an adult and I don't see how the grandpa could be alive at this point, let alone prosecuted.

@8 and @58 I've often felt this way, but there are so many wonderful and kind and amazing people, too. I try to focus on that as much as possible. I know sometimes the horror that people inflict is overwhelming, but I try to remember all the big and small kindnesses that people share with each other and send into the world.

Thank you, Michael80, for the APA link.

There are major ethical limitations on the kind of research that psychologists can do regarding abuse and its effect on memory. From a scientific standard, only experiments can definitively demonstrate cause and effect. But ethically, researchers cannot inflict or even allow abuse. They can only study the after effects, based on victim reports. That’s why it’s so hard to get a clear understanding on things like traumatic amnesia.

Personally, I have a clear memory of waking up with partial amnesia when I was an adolescent. I also clearly remember a lot of abuse and dysfunction. I only blocked out the very worst of it, apparently. So I know that traumatic amnesia can happen.

If you are wondering "Why would anyone doubt repressed memories?" the answer is that the research of the 70s-90s that popularized them also lead to innocent people going to prison for crimes they did not commit, or in the case of the satanic panic, did not even happen. Here is a HUGE example of 'repressed memories' actually being a result of brainwashing and suggestion. Memory is super imperfect in human beings. https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2019/03/06/six-people-were-convicted-murder-they-didnt-even-remember-now-county-owes-them-million/?utm_term=.82169277015b

You CAN convince someone that things that never happened happened to them and they will experience those memories vividly and as real as their actual memories. This does not mean that every person with repressed trauma is a liar, or has been brainwashed, but it does mean such techniques should not be taken as fact.

It has been heartbreaking reading all the stories posted here. Hail to all of you and your courage.