What's important to remember is that women simply have no agency of their own and must be protected at all costs - no matter how much they may say it's their choice, their body, their rights, their agency. MUST PROTEC!

Last time I recall you have to be 21 or older to stay at the Mon Chalet; at least when I was with an 18 year old and we wanted to go ... she couldn't get in.

Age gaps are fine even if he's 50 and she's 17/16; that is quite common now. Does it make him a creep for taking advantage of perfectly willing women who understand what they are getting into?

No

Like Dan said Pedo's are after little boys; they don't want 18 year old boys... they want your boy at 8

I agree with Dan- not criminal but definitely creepy! I was seeing someone who was 50 and he revealed to me that his last girlfriend was 19. I have a 15-year old daughter and I had to end it with him. It’s disgusting- sorry.

Am I the only one who wondered if Dan got caught up in this woman's overreaction? The fact the guy is in an open relationship and posting ads on FetLife sound precisely like what I would imagine non exploitative relationships with a major age gap would look like.

Don't understand where I'm coming from? Go on FetLife and look at profiles for young women and you will see a lot stating they are looking for someone experienced to show them the ropes. As for the guy referring to the 18 year old as his girlfriend, in open relationships it's not uncommon to refer to women who are not your primary as your girlfriend. Describing her as having great tits and so on, again, it's a FetLife personal and since he's posting ads seeking other couples, I highly doubt he's posting these ads behind her back.

None of this means this isn't an exploitative relationship between an older man and a much younger woman, nor does it mean he didn't meet her as a result of being a professor, making the relationship incredibly creepy. All I'm saying is that based on what LW described the red flags are partially balanced out by details you would see in a non-exploitative relationship.

Agreed with 4 and 5.

Eeeewww! My creep-to-meter is ringing very loud.

5 Daddy how judgamental is that? Would she not be a "slut" if she worked in real state and met her fuck buddy by showing him a house? Have you never ever ever had sex with someone you met through work? A masseuse is not different.

Not surprising that someone is squicked out by this. But also l-dub, get over yourself. Not everything is exploitative or abusive. Younger people and older people get together all the time. And many times it's totally fine and mutually beneficial to both parties. Regardless, it's none of your business.

States where the age of consent is 18 and there is no close in age exemption are kind of ridiculous considering that median age at which americans become sexually active is 17 it means that most people who grew up in those states were participating in a crime that could have landed someone on the sex offender registry when they lost their virginity had they been unlucky enough to get caught. Behaviors that are consistent with the societal norm should not have the power to ruin peoples lives in the way that such laws do.

When I was 19 I spent several weeks trying to convince and 43 year old to date or at least sleep with me. Why is it so hard for folks to believe young people can be attracted to an older person in a mature and self aware way.

I regret to this day over thirty years later they never took me up on it.

When I was barely 19 I seduced and then dated a man who was (I much later discovered) 63 at the time. It didn't last long, but I wasn't exploited or abused in any way- everything that happened was MY CHOICE. Why is she trying to make choices for someone else based on her own hang-ups? Sounds like plain jealousy to me.

Half your age plus 7 is the rule.

The guy's a creep. But not a pedophile.

@10 I have no idea how old you are now, but Dog Almighty, do you know how many teenagers I've heard say "But you know, I'm SOOOO mature for my age?' I don't even have any kids! Every kid thinks they're super mature and self aware and every kid is 100% wrong.

I don't have a problem with younger people being attracted to older ones. I was the same way myself in my younger years. I am a little skeeved by older guys who pursue younger ones though. In my experience, there's usually something a little wrong with them, either a desire for a relationship that they can dominate in an unhealthy way, or a sense of entitlement, or arrested development...something.

I won't deny that it's possible for a 43 year old to date a 19 year old and follow Dan's campsite rules. I do think that's a LOT harder to do than many people wish it was, and I think it's very rare that it works out well in practice.

I'll also note that as you get older, the difference in age becomes less and less important (which is part of the genius of the half your age plus 7 rule). But a forty-something guy dating an 18 year old, especially if he's posting ads soliciting sex partners online is just creepy as all git-out.

I think 1) this is creepy, and 2) mothers who have teenage daughters, like @3, are uniquely (and understandably, I think) unqualified to offer a reasonable assessment of older man/young woman pairings.

As long as everything is consensual, these setups can be all kinds of amazing. I was about 19 or 20 when I started sleeping with a 39 year old man in an open marriage and I can guarantee that

a) he 100% saw me as an adult and treated me with the appropriate level of respect (there was some joking around about the age/experience gap but it was always in fun) and

b) it was actually really great for me. His relationship with his wife was a fantastic one for me to use as a reference when navigating non-monogamy through my 20s. She and I ended up becoming friends as well and, after 10 years of the timing not working out, I finally got to play unicorn for them and it was fantastic!

I am now 32 and I am still friends with both of them. I go visit whenever I'm back in my hometown, though the sexual element of our relationship has mostly fallen to the side. I am sure a lot of people would have looked at my friendship with this couple as alarming, to say the least, but for me it has been nothing but positive.

Cosigning @12. Any one age-gap relationship is its in thing and could be just fine. But guys who systematically go for this situation... usually there's a reason.

College students can make their own decisions and don't care what I think, but from the other end I've known three guys whose dating age stayed "college" as they got older, and in 3 of 3 they were somewhere on the feckless - manipulative spectrum.

The guy in this letter we actually know isn't that particular type, due to the bonking the LW. Not sure I'd judge him. Wouldn't stick around long getting to know him better either.

When I was 20 I dated a woman who was 50. Was that exploitative as well or is it only exploitation when an older man dates a younger woman?

BTW, I didn't feel exploited at all. She was great. I'm still in touch with her from time to time.

When I was in college, I knew professors (male and female) who dated their students. Then and now, I found dating a student in your department to be wrong and creepy. Wrong, because other students in the department could never be sure their classmates weren't getting special treatment from their lovers or other professors in the department, and creepy, because these professors got a new 19 or 20 year-old partner every couple of years, as they transitioned from 30-something to 50-something. If this 18 year-old is his student, I would also find that wrong and creepy. I also agree that describing her as having "great tits" is a wholly crass way to describe her, even in FetLife posting.

But as a general proposition, I will not say there something inherently wrong or creepy about a 40-something who is dating an 18 year-old. There is an age past which everyone gets to decide with whom they have sex and the kind of sex they will have with their partners. That makes the argument that there is a power imbalance weak or irrelevant. Society has already judged 18 year-olds to have the necessary agency to make their own decisions, meaning they have enough power to decide whether power imbalance appeals to them. Clearly, given the number of so-called May-December romances this is common enough, and FetLife is full of such relationships. And who did Dan have in mind when he drafted the Camp Site Rule?

‘She is hot, amazing tits and loves sex.’ He sounds such a prize.

Caveat: people who say they're 18 might be 25 and playing a role, or 16.

He's not a paedophile, but if the fact that he's in this sort of creepy daddy-ish relationship puts you off fucking him again, it puts you off fucking him again. Say goodbye and find a new FWB.

He seems out-of-control to me, on a sex spree and very possibly exploiting his 18yo 'girlfriend' (if she is 18). It’s hard for me for imagine she could have given her fully informed, reflective consent to that Fetlife personal. The profile is exhibitionistic, devil-may-care--entirely in his voice. Relationships that are on a mutual basis, consensual, for the good (which can just mean the pleasure) of both parties, can be pretty wild ... but if he thought his relationship with this young woman was like that, I'm not sure he would have put up that post. Having said this, the LW has gone about challenging him the wrong way. Suppressing her 'disgusting! Pedophilia!' reaction, she should have cornered him on whether his tie-up with his Fet friend was 'entirely mutual, consensual and non-exploitative'. I'd think a screenshot and the threat to notify his employer (if he is indeed a prof.) might see the relationship fizzle out.

I've been in multiple relationships with significant age gaps of 10yrs and more in both directions. Was it something to navigate? Yes.. indeed the power imbalance ran both was regardless of who was older or younger. Was it a huge deal, not really. Did we love each other, you better believe we did and in a couple cases, we still do.

Americans are weird about sex, it's this sacred magical thing for them and never seem to be able to mind their own business.

@4. unknown. The personal's in his voice, not hers, though. And 'professor' is going out your way to hoist a red flag.

@22. agrippa. Did you put up a breathless Fetlife ad flaunting your younger partner's tits?

Dadddy @5: Ha, zing. I was going to say that there's no evidence COBOF fucked more than one of her massage clients (so @7's point would stand). However, they met on Craigslist, which means it was probably the happy-ending sort of massage. So she's a sex worker, and he's in an open relationship, of the sort that allows him to pay sex workers, and they're both kinksters. Pot, kettle, indeed. However, as a wise man said on today's weekly thread, "You can choose to fuck or not fuck someone for whatever fucking reason you want." If dating someone young enough to be -- and who may well be -- one of his students is a squick too far, even a kinky sex worker has the right to that limit.

For me a key factor is Mr COBOF's reaction. Had he replied, "We're both adults, she's not my student, and there's nothing wrong with what we're doing," fine. In COBOF's shoes I might have tried to recall that I was once a horny 18-year-old too and accept this. But he replied, "I'm not perfect," indicating that even he knows this is wrong. That seals the ick factor for me.

Older woman jealous of younger woman, repeat ad nauseam.

All other things aside, "18" is a buzzword in the world of sex. Chick could easily be a few years older, and they/he just use that number to attract more attention.

Not all relationships with a large age gap are creepy, but the younger the young partner is the higher the creep potential gets. I don't blame LW for getting squicked (though calling him a pedo is still objectively not true). Y'all might have not been taken advantage of, she might not be getting taken advantage of, but he still sounds gross to me.

Theodore @26: You don't know much about women. We do not wish we were 18. At all. If the woman in question had been 25, you might be onto something. No; what's going on is that -- as recently discussed in the "teen porn" letter -- women literally have zero desire for teenagers and can't comprehend why men do. We find the whole concept gross.
https://www.thestranger.com/slog/2019/02/04/38614095/hes-her-perfect-guy-or-he-was-until-she-checked-out-the-girls-he-was-checking-out

@29: When did I say you want to be 18?

Also, if the younger woman was 25, how would that invalidate my statement that the LW was jealous of a younger woman?

Theodore @30: You said "older woman jealous of younger woman." That implies she is jealous of her being 18, correct? Wrong. If she were 25, that would -validate- your statement that the LW was (potentially) jealous of this younger woman, because a lot of us -do- wish we could be 25 again. Just not 18. That is not what's going on here.

Technicalities with definitions are so much fun. While there are three words to address being attracted to minors depending on the age, pedophile has inappropriately become the umbrella for all of them, I suspect mostly because the other words are seldom used.
Pedophile: someone attracted to prepubescent minors.
Hebephile: same with barely pubescent minors (ages 11-14).
Ephebophile: same with post-pubescent minors (ages 15+).
Minor: someone younger than the legal age of consent.

It's good that there are older adults who enjoy showing younger adults the ropes. Typically, the younger adult is in it to learn without the risk of engaging with an immature age peer who might blab about them. Both parties know that it's not going to last. The campfire rule applies.
Where it gets creepy is when the older adult is only interested in very young adults, or exploits them (evidenced by the tits comment on FetLife).

The bottom line for the LW is that if you're not interested in dating someone who is (also) into much younger people, you don't have to. Just please stop using the word pedophile incorrectly.

@Harriet / 24
I'll admit I'm giving the guy a lot of benefit of the doubt, but based on my own experience in FWB relationships, on FetLife, swinging, what's being described is unusual but not out of line.
Younger women seeking partners who are more experienced to "show them the ropes" is incredibly common. Reclaiming derogatory terms like "slut" or using / having derogatory language used to describe oneself like having "killer tits" is incredibly common. The dominant or experienced partner taking the lead on arranging swinging / swapping, going to sex parties, posting ads, incredibly common. All of them together - not particularly common, but not particularly unusual.
Again, I'll admit I'm giving the guy the benefit of the doubt in this. It's entirely possible he's a manipulative POS, the woman does not know what he's saying about her in ads looking for couples to swap with, and her inexperience means she doesn't realize this is abusive. But what's described is close enough to what a non-manipulative relationship with a substantial age gap that I think we should not automatically conclude the guy is scum.

When I was in my late 40s an 18 year old guy hit on me. I said no, as I always did when that happened. He persisted. Eventually, when he was 20, I finally did get together with him - he was pretty convincing. We ended up being FWBs for the next 10 years, and he was lots of fun. 18 is still too young for me, and so is 20 most of the time, but I know that's just my preference, not a rule everyone has to follow. Lots of 18 year olds know exactly what they want, and go after it pretty single-mindedly. Assuming that the older person is the aggressor when old and young people get together just doesn't fit how things are in the real world.

Most of the men who hit on me these days are substantially younger men who just prefer old guys for sex and relationships. A lot of them are also reasonable adults, and good to spend time with. People who think this is creepy are either revealing a lot about the severe limitations of their own experiences and internal fantasy lives or are basing their beliefs on bad novels written by writers with impoverished sex lives - in either case they clearly don't have a clue about the sheer variety of ordinary peoples' dreams and desires.

@29 You say - "women literally have zero desire for teenagers and can't comprehend why men do. "

Among my many acquaintances over the years, I had a woman neighbor years ago who did enjoy the company of teenage men. I remember one particular month of pleasure when she chanced upon an 18 year old man who loved feet as much as she did. Her bellows of ecstasy coming through the thin walls from next door were proof, to me, that you are wrong about the desires of all women. She was not the only woman I've know who enjoyed teenagers as erotic partners - not all women march in step with your own desires.

ECarpenter @35: Sigh, did I say "all women"? There are always exceptions to every rule. Your comment is funny because I happen to prefer younger men myself. Please read the comment thread in the link I posted which shows that even I, with a late-20s-and-up rule, am the exception to what most women desire.

All I want to add is that whatever this dude is a professor of, it's not English. "She is hot, amazing tits and just loves sex" is not only not parallel construction, but it is missing the word "has" or "with" before "amazing," and thus makes no sense grammatically (yes, I understand the semantics).

Also, I'm not sure that the guy is an actual professor or whether it's a role he wants to play. I can't believe he'd find that detail important on FetLife, and I think he'd be opening himself up to scrutiny where he wouldn't want it--i.e. his professional life--by giving that much identifying information. If the 18-year-old girlfriend his one of his students, he's in for a world of trouble; why point people in that direction?

Lastly, regarding the lw's professional relationship to the guy she's no longer into: She doesn't suggest that they started having a sexual relationship because she was giving happy ending massages; she says they met because he was a client of hers and they clicked ("Started off as a massage client before our mutual attraction and friendship turned into him coming over, having great sex, pillow talk for a bit before he leaves"). My point is nit-picky for sure, and for all we know she was giving happy ending massages, but I'm troubled by both the slut shaming and sex-worker shaming I've seen in this thread. How they met / what she does for a living is not germane.

@33. unknown. I'm not concluding the guy is scum--but my sense is (if he's genuinely a professor; a BIG if) he's lost control of what he's doing, drunk the Kool-aid, by putting up such a reckless post. I'm not saying that it's a hard-and-fast rule that an older man, an authority figure or Daddy type, is coercing or exploiting a 'girl' by being the one to post in a derogatory (or shaming) manner on her behalf. I can see, and know of instances, where it's thrilling for the younger woman to be publicly slighted in that way. Yet (I think) I would expect a fully-aware woman to exercise some check, and for the guy, much more importantly and pertinently, to exercise some check on himself, if he's going to put 'professor'. What if he actually is her professor? Or could plausibly be taken to be her professor? Skeevy at best ... and anyone responsible playing with them is going to have legitimate concerns with the ethics of this guy's affair with the younger woman. And this amongst other things is going to interfere with his indulging his kink....

As Bi says, I also infer a lot from his 'I'm not perfect' response. Not 'it was massage-play with you when I said, 'ooh, ooh, my lower back' and you kneaded it and proceeded to give me a happy ending / massage my prostate--and it's age-play with this woman, who is 26 and not a student, and I'm not a professor! Now just butt out of my play and my fantasies!'. Nothing like that. Instead he says something avowing shame.

We don't know whether the young woman has been imposed upon. However, if I were the Dean of a liberal arts college where this guy genuinely teaches, I'd investigate.

@36 Thanks BiDanFan, I'll consider your statements to be "mostly" not "all" in the future. And late 20s and up is what I mostly prefer, too.

I don't think it's out-of-line for a sex worker (if that's what the LW is) to express a concern for an 18yo potentially taken advantage of by her client. If anything, the opposite. Imv it's commendable that someone in that position expresses concern--recognises that informed consent is the basis of a mutual relationship; and that her casual sex with her client/ex-client was predicated on this, and that (arguably or apparently) the Fet-advertised hook-up isn't. Possibly, yes, the LW has not put the point about consent so clearly, talking instead about pedophilia. The grounds for talking about 'happy endings' are that the guy found her as a service provider (as it were) through Craiglist personals.

For a start LW, forty five is not old. You told this guy how you feel, and ended things between you. What he does with other consenting adults, is not your business. He sounds a tool, good you’ve moved along.

I would sooner have the guy over for dinner than the LW. Blowing the child-rape whistle is extreme, and frankly dumb. Words have meaning and picking a powerful one doesn't make it the right one.

If she's creeped out, that's fine. But her unreasonable judginess would be disqualifying for me.

Dadddy @5, So, I wasn't the only one who found that odd.

NoCute @37, My read is that the LW's FWB is probably no more a professor than his girlfriend is 18. The abusive creepy professor and innocent exploited teen are the roles they play in their D/S games. The girlfriend could also be another sex worker.

And, yeah, met on Craigslist + massage client + "friendship" turned into a romantic relationship = sex worker, at least 94.99% of the time. As to whether that's germane, an awful lot of non-sex worker masseuses would find that inappropriate and icky, but they're probably just biased because they don't like being sexually assaulted by guys who assume they're sex workers. I guess her circling around that issue goes to the same question about her honesty that is raised by her screaming "pedophile" just because she's mad at a guy for things that have absolutely nothing to do with pedophilia.

Paedophile is a person who sexually abuses children, LW. Surely you knew this.
What can you do? If young women want to be with middle aged men, who describe them like they are Barbie Dolls, nobody else’s business.
He probably needs extra help because she’s testing his virility with all the sex she likes.
The guy is a tosser, and no longer your concern.

@25 BiDanFan I've always liked a lot of your comments. I also found the guys response very telling - he didn't try to defend the relationship by saying it was balanced or that it wasn't his student. He just said that he "isn't perfect" meaning he himself believes there is something wrong about what he's doing, but he is doing it anyway.
I also agree that, though there are cases where age gaps work, if this squicks her out, then it is entirely up to her if she doesn't wanna hook up with this guy. That's the only practical question, so I don't see the point in people trying to convince her she's being ridiculous. Personally I wouldn't want to hook up with the guy anymore. I've seen too many instances of unbalanced age gap relationships and that, combined with the red flags, would not make it worth continuing hooking up with someone.

I would probably send something asking him to really consider how he's acting in this relationship, if it is endangering his job, how it will affect the girl and if it's something he'll be ashamed of later.

@46 - I agreed with what you said until "I would probably send something asking him to really consider how he's acting in this relationship, if it is endangering his job, how it will affect the girl and if it's something he'll be ashamed of later."

Do you really think in a situation like this an intelligent middle aged man wouldn't have thought through all those questions, and much more? Her best course of action is to just say what she wants or doesn't want from him now, and leave it at that. She has control over her own actions, his are not her business since she knows none of the details and has no idea what his life is actually like when he's not with her. She's making huge assumptions based on very little data - like you are.

Yes the guy's not a pedophile.

Regarding if he's exploiting the younger woman. Well he is using her (young thang with great tits) to find partners (who probably would be less interested in a middle aged man alone) on a sex site. Maybe he's exploiting her or maybe he's not. Maybe she's down for it. Maybe she's mature.

I really don't see why either of the above matter to the LW's situation. She thinks it's creepy that this dude is fucking barely legal teens, and she thinks it's even creepier the way he describes them online while looking for sex, and she feels disgusted by the thought of sleeping with a dude that does this. Good enough reason to dump him. I'd find it creepy too, and I'd be disgusted also to sleep with someone I find creepy. No reason to rationalize it beyond that- she knows nothing about the girl and very little about the guy.

I had a 31 year old boyfriend at 18. Would totally have fucked a 45 year old, if a hot enough one had come along. Sorry, not seeing the problem, as long as the Campside Rule is observed.

Hey EmmaLiz, good to see you.

I imagine there is some surprise and grief caught up with the LW’s feelings. Surprise because he presented another side of himself to her, and grief because she enjoyed his company.
Like the guy says he’s not perfect.
In a Patriarchy it’s hard for men to relinquish the spoils. And older men attracting much younger women, and getting no cultural censure for fucking women young enough to be their daughters, is one of the spoils.
One hopes the girls he lands are smart enough to see what a twenty seven year age gap looks like thru the years and just enjoy the fling.

NoCute @37: Yup. Colorado? Fetlife? Professor? His age? The specific event they want to attend? Some of these details MUST have been changed, it's too specific to not be able to identify this guy.

I'm the one who tied meeting on Craigslist to her potentially being a sex worker, and I did not do so to shame her. On the contrary, I said even sex workers have the right to set limits in their personal lives.

Kitten @46: Thank you! :)

ECarpenter @47: I think the point is that most of us who are feeling the squick think a middle-aged man in this position is not intelligent, and that no, he hasn't thought through these questions because he is thinking with his dick. (I agree it's not COBOF's business to involve herself. He won't listen anyway, and if there are consequences she can enjoy the schadenfreude.)

Lava @53: Surprise and grief indeed, you nailed it. People who are shocked and grieving often overreact, hence jumping to "paedophile" instead of just "creepy." No, he's not a paedo; yes, she is within her rights to dump him over this; and no, I'm not passing judgment over how he's treating this alleged 18-year-old, we just don't have enough information.

Don’t have enough information Fan? How this guy describes the young woman is info enough.

Nope, Lava @55, I don't. He's being sleazy. But she may be into that. She may also be a 24-year-old, fully autonomous sex worker for all we know. If she writes in then I'll give an opinion.

Her letter is horseshit.
"this is just casual sex with some growing feelings between us..." meaning she is feeling more special than his wife or anyone else. When a hot 18 year-old pops up and out-competes her she jumps to the most severe weapon she can conjure: slanderous accusations.

No, Dan, consenting adults fucking other consently adults is neither gross or crass. Cut it out with the ageist shaming.

It still surprises me to see how so many people, rallying to the cry of #believewomen, only really "believe" them when it fits their narrative.

Oh, and the LW clearly needs help with definitions. She can find it creepy all she wants, but a ped he is not and he deserves an apology if she said that to him. This is how witch hunt bullshit starts.

A bit late to the party, but here's my take on his "I'm not perfect" answer. It actually means: "Go fuck yourself". It comes from a guy who's probably playing a role here with another consenting adult*, won't let himself be shamed for it and considers the LW far less important in his life than she considers him**. So he indirectly tells her that she should no longer entertain the thought of... well, anything with him.

It seems to me that she had been building up unrealistic expectations, and that her baseless accusations and OTT reaction are just a way of hiding her anger at him for not being the kind of guy she thought he was, when this anger should be directed at herself for having been naive and having seen him as, perhaps, perfect (which he obviously picked up on, hence the way he answered).

*If they want to go to a 21+ sex place like Mon Chalet (see comment @ 2), that means she's 21+, not 18. Also, let's not deny the other woman her agency without knowing the specifics of their arrangement.

**She writes "It’s unspoken that we are both seeing others and this is just casual sex with some growing feelings between us". Why is it unspoken? Maybe because those feelings have only been growing on her side of the equation, and she knows that talking about it with him would have brought about the bursting of that particular bubble.

Agency seems to be the word of the day(s).
Has anybody denied this young woman her agency? Not going to read thru this again..
An eighteen year old woman’s agency doesn’t have the incorporated experience of the thirty year old woman’s. Assuming both have moved out into the world and stayed there, sexually.
A girl of eighteen is still a flower, she hasn’t learnt the hard lessons yet, of men. In our culture. She might like sex, she still has a heart and at that age it’s can be very vulnerable.
Fetlife teems daily with all the hopeful young women, suddenly awakened. And down they swoop, the predatorial much older men.