We're Really Into Each Other, But There Are Issues. For Starters, Her Boyfriend.

Comments

2

Yep, this is the right move. Tell her this is what you'll do, then actually do it. Write her off (in your own mind, just in case) and perfect your needlepoint skills or ice fishing or whatever you do in the winter. You will feel WAY better about yourself however it turns out.

3

Is 'come sock' the correct spelling of 'cum sock'?

4

"And, frankly, if someone I was dating were doing what she is doing, I'd consider it cheating."

You think?

Jesus, this guy is terrible. I like how he clarified that this is only a "second-tier" friend, like that makes it less skeezy to sleep with his girlfriend.

5

@4: I maintain that HE has made no agreements with her boyfriend - or anyone else - regarding sex with her, and I view the idea that the social contract requires turning down sex from agentic adults who want to fuck if they're "in a relationship" (didn't marriage mean forsaking all others once upon a time, not simply dating?) as mostly patriarchial bullshit derived from the idea that women ARE very much like cars or wallets and thus can be "stolen". (Sure, this view pops up sometimes when it's a man in question, too, but in my experience it's FAR more common when it's a woman, especially when it cimes to implicit threats of violent retribution).

There is no social obligation for other people to make an effort to enable what is (given the cheating) clearly a relationship that isn't working well for everyone involved by refraining from consensual activities that might blow it up.

6

You can choose your actions, LW, but you don’t always get to choose the consequences of those actions. There’s no way for either of you to come out of this without hurting somebody; that ship has sailed, and you’re not going to get it back at this point.

You can’t dictate your friends’ responses to this; at the very least, the cheated-on friend is going to be some combination of hurt and angry, and at least some of your mutual friends are going to side with him. Get used to that idea now, because the only question is when it’s going to happen, not if.

Right now, the ball is mostly in girlfriend’s court, not yours. Your only real options are to bring all of this out into the open yourself, watch her relationship implode, and hope she still wants to be with you afterward (this is the TERRIBLE, completely selfish option); to hang around and wait for her to decide what she wants (this is the reasonable option, but only up to a point; if she leaves you hanging too long, it will by default turn into option 1); or just to walk away entirely (this is probably the least selfish option, because it limits the amount of further harm done to others, but it kinda sucks for you).

There is no “good” ending here; there’s just a choice of which possibility is the least bad.

7

It's not as if this guy's going to get out of this unscathed. I think it's a disservice to an LW to tell them because someone else might in theory have issues that they have zero issues. Why waste a SLLOTD on a letter you aren't actually going to give any advice on?

8

@5 I don't think basic empathy for another persons suffering is patriarchal bullshit. Being nice to your friend, or your SO, is assumed, not an optional bonus. Saying "I never swore on a bible not to fuck your fiance!" is a friend move for sociopaths.

9

@3 Come is a verb, and cum is semen... jizz... spunk. When I reach that moment of ultimate abandon, I come, and out comes cum. I can wear running socks whilst running, and coming socks whilst coming, but the sock in which I collect my cum is my cum sock. I hope this clears things up.

10

Relationship transition can be a tough one. Lots of people don't want to end a relationship until they have something else lined up, and fucking overlaps sometimes happens. Not that I endorse such overlap, of course (clutches pearls), but that's what this sounds like. Dan's advice is solid.

11

Drjones@ 8: agreed. Selfish assholes and sociopaths always try to cloak their shitty behavior in whatever social justice terms they think will fit. Last week with the "My GF banged her married boss for 3 years" it was "it's so sexist to assume that women are the arbiters of sex and it's up to women to stop men from cheating - so you totally can't say she's wrong to bang a married man!" This week it's "women aren't property so it's sexist to say you're an asshole for banging your friend's gf."

Same selfish whore shit, different excuse.

LW, you're a shitty friend, and your dreamgirl is a CPOS. If you get with her she'll be banging another of your friends soon enough - that is, if you have any friends left after this comes out.

12

LW, you're a bad friend. You already did (and continue doing) the thing that will hurt your friend, you're just trying to find a way he doesn't find out about it, and you're trying to convince yourself you're not as shitty of a person as you are by pretending you care for his well-being.

So here's how this plays out. He finds out about the cheating (whether she ends it with him or not) and feels all that potential hurt, and finds out he was dating a shitty girlfriend and was friends with a shitty friend. All your friends will find out you're a shitty friend. You already did all the things and continue to do the things that make you a shitty friend, and wrote in to ask howt avoid all the well-deserved consequences of it. Well fuck you, LW, reap what you sow.

13

Wow Traffic Spiral, did you get lost? This isn't' an MRA forum so your tiresome misogyny really isn't welcome.

Fuck off.

14

"He's only a second-tier friend"...oh, good, that means you're only a second-tier douchebag.

15

msanonymous you're just sorta proving my point. It's equally shitty to be banging someone in an exclusive relationship with someone else regardless of gender or sexual orientation, but some people will try and scrape the bottom of the SJW barrel for tired arguments to twist around in order to justify being a selfish shit.

If it makes you feel any better, I don't know you, so I'm not personally judging whether you're banging your friend's husband, your brother's wife, a slew of married adulterous randos, or whatever variation you're currently feeling judged over.

16

“Lonely here in the winter”?! For fuck sake, it’s Madison, not Noorvik, Alaska! People DO SHIT in the winter! No one stops fucking because it’s too cold, in fact, just the opposite - gotta stay warm somehow! It’s also a college town, so PLENTY of horny coeds to go around, lots of local women, local gays, and, of course, many, many flocks of sheep within easy reach!

17

I am a GOT fan, so I get the importance of "winter is coming," but good gravy: it's April; winter isn't coming to Madison, WI for another 7 months.

Plus, anyone who consistently refers to woman as a "lady" in the 21st century is exactly the kind of douchebag I would expect this letter to be from. Adopting Mr. Ven's prescription, I advise covenant marriage yesterday.

18

@15 except that not everyone feels that way. I was cheated on, by my husband, and my feeling about the other woman was that she had never made me any promises, so why would I be angry at her?

The idea that someone who has sex with a married person is automatically a douchebag, seems to me to stem from the natural inclination of those who have been cheated on to direct their anger away from the person they still care about, have a mortgage or kids with, and who it would be difficult and unpleasant to be seriously angry with. So much easier to blame some outsider.

In order for there to be betrayal, there must be trust. I never particularly trusted random women at the bar, so how could they betray me? The person who stood up in front of everyone we knew and promised to cleave to me only? Yeah, he's the one who did any betraying.

19

Not banging anyone TF but I get the feeling you're not banging anyone either, hence the misogyny and resentment oozing from your posts.

No one in this letter is covering themselves in glory. The LW needs to stop fucking around with this girl until she's single, and he needs to make peace with the fact that dating her is going hurt other people, but that's just life.

And I'm not willing to be super judgmental about an affair a person had nearly a decade before meeting their new partner. I mean he could talk to her like a person and hear her side of the story. We all make mistake and we all learn and grow from them. But then he doesn't get to call her a whore or get up on his judgmental high horse, which is what he really wants to do.

So I'm seeing why you're sympathizing with him.

20

@17 - this letter is from October 2009.

21

Traffic Spiral: Judge much? Wonder what's in your closet...

I agree with all of Dan's advice except "stay away" at the end, because I know from experience it's all but impossible to do. So I would say: Stay away if you can, that's the high road. If you can't, prepare to deal with the potentially shitty consequences.

22

There are all sorts of ways for behavior to be shitty. Betrayal requires trust- so yea, a total stranger cannot betray you by fucking your partner behind your back. But if they do it knowingly, then they are contributing to making your life more complicated and difficult. In this case it's more complicated because it sounds like a lot of drama- the LW does know the boyfriend and consider him a friend (even if it's a casual friendship) and therefore it is a betrayal. But more importantly, they have a shared friend group and it sounds like they are the sort to stir drama- they aren't trying to keep things discreet- others notice the change in behavior. So you are making life more complicated and difficult for a lot of people, and on top of this, it will feel more crushing to the boyfriend if he finds out later on that his girlfriend cheated and he was the last to know. It's basic decency not to stir up that sort of drama. Dan's advice is good- the LW just has to enforce his own boundaries. If she does not leave her boyfriend, then it's likely she was into the thrill and the drama and not into him anyway. Besides, keep in mind that someone who cheats with you will likely cheat on you.

All that aside, I have to say that I don't see what this has to do with the letter about the woman who fucked her boss. The advice is different because the situations are completely different. If I recall, she fucked her boss YEARS AGO and the LW broke up with her over it because he was under the impression that he was her one and only, not so much because he was worried about her cheating, and anyway they were already broken up and the LW was still expressing DISGUST over the fact that his girlfriend fucked her boss a decade prior or whatever. And that "arbiters of sex" thing is yours, Traffic Spiral, not Dan's. Someone can be an asshole for cheating, but that doesn't change the fact that the person they cheat with is not their property and also responsible for their own decisions (just like you are) so the advice seems pretty consistent to me. But yea, LW and his infatuation are both CPOS and selfish, etc. In the earlier letter though, we don't know. It was so long ago and we know nothing of the context.

23

I always get confused about people and get mixed up with what I've read before, but I am under the impression that Traffic Spiral is neither a misogynist nor a man and the quotation marks around the statements indicate a certain viewpoint (not their own). The word "whore" is usually gendered and has a misogynistic history - and it's slut-shaming regardless so I say we lay it to rest for anything except dirty talk. But the judgement in that post came across to me as being directed at selfishness and cheaters, not at women.

24

@18 The betrayal is one issue- although I would argue that LW is betraying his "second-tier friend" by sleeping with his girlfriend. But aside from that, there's just the matter of being a good person and treating others the way you would want to be treated. "I never took a blood oath not to do that particular shitty thing" is the reasoning of a selfish person looking to get away with doing shitty things Would you sleep with a man you knew was in a relationship (assuming it was not an open relationship, and he would be cheating on his partner)? And if not, why?

"Because it would make me feel like a garbage human being" is a totally acceptable answer.

25

emma I have no idea what TS gender is and the same could said about TS knowing what my gender is, and yet they were more than happy to assume that my calling them out was because of the non-exsistant affair I was having. Not because of their own behavior.

Heck as almost all of their anger is pointed at women and how they complained about the other LW not being forced to wear a scarlet 'A' for her crimes by the commenters was SJW bullshit, you'll forgive me if I make some assumptions.

I agree with leaving the unrelated letter in the past. And that both LW's are being jerks.

26

@BDF I saw your last post carrying on the discussion we were having about cheating and lying. I figure it's easier to simply reply here given the content of this letter and since neither of us probably wants to keep jumping back to week-old threads.

In general, there are two things about which I don't want someone to lie to me: health and finances. So, like you, I guess I might be concerned about a cheating partner giving me an STI. Or I might be concerned that a cheating partner and her new partner are going to run off with money that I've worked to save (or helped work to save). Beyond that, there are situations in which I prefer that someone isn't lying (e.g., if you don't like me as a co-worker, for example, then let's work together but not hang out; or if you think I've done a shitty job with something then tell me rather than lying about it). But mostly I could care less. I don't mean that to sound as dismissive as I know it reads. Instead, as I've posted multiple times before, there are all kinds of things happening in the world that I don't know about. I can't worry about those things. If a partner is cheating and I don't know she is cheating then really as far as my internal sense of self is concerned, she is not cheating. I only know she is cheating if she tells me. I just don't see cheating as a major problem. And I don't see lying to cover up cheating as a problem either. If people can negotiate an ethical non-monogamous relationship, great. But not everyone is in sync with that agreement (emotionally, logistically).

Given all of that, I think the move this LW should have made (who knows what happened in 2009). Is to find out what the woman wanted. Did she just want to fuck around with the LW? If so, cool. Keep doing that. Is she looking to leave the BF to be with the LW? Yeah, that's going to cause problems in the friendship circle because most people would be pissed; they're not Dennis Eckersley (e.g., former baseball player whose best friend "stole" his wife and he remained friends with the best friend and the ex-wife). Since most people would be pissed, I think the only move here is to keep seeing the woman and only start a public relationship if she breaks up with the BF and some time has passed so the crew does not think she left the BF to be with the LW.

27

Soul @ 20
I think nocute @ 17 made a timeless observation. An excessive use of the word “lady” would have been just as alarming in October 2009 as it is today.

28

@25 "make assumptions"??? You wrote an entire fucking novel.

I'd also like to point out the list of banned words, in 2019, include:
* Female
* Girl
* Woman/Women
* Lady

Literally, there isn't a word uttered before 2015 that's presently acceptable. I'm going back to Dame, Toots, and Chick. You did this to yourselves.

29

Here's the deal, l-dub... this is going to blow up in your face and you're going to lose all your friends. But you know what? It'll be a great opportunity to start over and grow the fuck up. Good luck! (Change tenses as appropriate for repeat letter).

30

@11 Yeah, some serious bullshit was laid down last week along those lines. But this is Savage Love in 2019; for many posters in here, it's pretty hard for a woman to do wrong. Been a long time comments reader though, and 10 years ago, people regularly ripped women to shit in here over a lot of normal human being type stuff. Trends change. This is where we are now. There's good to it, and there's bad.

31

With respect to last weeks column in which the genders of the parties were opposite, I would say that I don't think it impermissible to make moral judgments about people who cheat on their partners and those with whom they cheat. Making a moral judgment is not the same as laying blame, pronouncing someone evil, or declaring them persona non grata. It simply states that someone has behaved in a manner that is not beyond reproach. I don't think that should be a controversial point. Having said this, at some point in our lives, for instance college, I think many of us have done what FIM or Ms. FIM have done here.

32

Dumb arse move LW. Good luck sorting it. I rest my case.

33

Well, it's spring now. Green means Go!

35

Hey, does anyone else think the spellcaster bots target Dan's comment page because they pick up on the word "Lovecast"?

36

I do like the sound of a "Win court Case Spell" @34 though, random capitalisation n'all. I wonder if Dr LAMATU works on a "no win, no fee" basis.

37

EmmaLiz @23: Yes, cheaters and those who cheat with them are jerks regardless of gender or sexual orientation. But for people like msanonymous, they will find a way to call that view misogyny even if you had two gay guys doing it (probably something about adhering to old gender norms based in misogyny or something).

They've realized that the "people generally owe each other nothing, so you don't have to refrain from hurting someone if you have one degree of separation from them" argument doesn't get them much traction, outside MAGA circles. So they looked for something more palatable to the non-MAGAs, and came up with "it's misogynist."

Think badly of a woman for screwing her married boss? Misogyny because she wasn't the one married! Think badly of a man for screwing his friend's live-in girlfriend? Misogyny because you're acting like the gf is the property of her boyfriend! Think badly of cheaters in general? Misogyny because you must be angry to believe that, and anger leads to the MRA side!

It's just a bullshit argument certain people pull out to try and justify being shitty - but it was extra funny in this letter because it contrasted so well with the same argument turned around for last week's situation.

38

I'm sure the LW is in his early 20s, so I will airily give him and his girlfriend a pass on all unethical behaviour. I behaved appalling at that age - just about everyone does. You can't steal anyone who doesn't want to be stolen, LW, so I think you should suggest she move out somewhere else, so you two can see each other.

39

Oh, just realised this is a ten year old letter. Hope they had an outrageous fling for six months, and are now at the stage of looking back on all their crazy 18-25 year old behaviour with amusement.

40

@37 there's an obvious double standard. Its existence doesn't upset me nearly so much as the people that refuse to acknowledge it

41

As for the LW and his social circle, I'm getting a major frat bro vibe here (culturally-speaking, since she wouldn't have been living with her boyf if it was a literal frat). So I think there's a high a chance the other bros would totally shun him for "stealing another man's girl" and breaking the bro code. With that in mind, why not heed the example of those honour-bound bros from the past - the knights, the cavalry, and male nobility - and challenge his love rival to a duel. Of push-ups, fantasy football, vinegar-chugging, or whatever it is young overprivileged tossers like to do these days. That way, he has a chance of winning this lady's affections "fair and square".

42

NoCute @17: That threw me too until I saw that this is a re-run. It seems the people involved are probably reaching 30 now and have probably all but forgotten each other.

For what it's worth, of course it's wrong to shag someone who's in a relationship with someone else, even if that person is willing. Yes, they are solely responsible for maintaining any monogamous commitment they made, but one is morally bankrupt if one does not realise a person cannot cheat alone and one is aiding and abetting harm to a third party if they do not decline those advances. I'd say 75% blame to the cheater, 25% blame to the cheater-with-er. Gender of course is irrelevant.

43

Lost @41: I don't know, I think any close-knit group/subculture would look askance at someone "stealing" another person's partner. I've seen it happen in my friends group when the "thief" of the partner was female. If anything, the woman in these situations gets more blame because she "seduced" a man who was "helpless" to resist. Gag.

44

Surfrat @26: Thanks for your perspective. If you don't care if your girlfriend cheats, then doesn't that mean it isn't cheating? Just tell her that you don't care if she has sex/relationships with other people, then it becomes a DADT open relationship, not a monogamous one. Then you and I will be on the same page as far as the ethics involved. Because I still see emotional risk in cheating. I see the risk that it will in fact come out -- what you don't know may not hurt you, but what you don't know has a bad habit of making itself known. If you are one of the majority of people who can't emotionally handle a DADT, ie if you do care if your partner cheats, the risk is of a relationship-ending blowup. I just can't see proceeding as if they may never find out as either an ethical or a practical strategy.

45

BiDanFan@43, yeah sexist assumptions can play a part, though I think that can go either way. I usually see "third person gets the blame", whether they're male or female, for reasons that agony stated @18. The jilted party (mis)directs their anger at the outsider, rather than their unfaithful partner, and their friends chime in with that.

That said, I think the way these social dynamics work out also depends on the relative group status of the key participants. Who has the most social clout in this group of friends - the LW, his love interest, or her boyfriend? Most folks would flock to the group leader(s), and spin the ethics in whatever way is convenient.

46

@5 The fact that he was drunk (and presumably she was too) really destroys that argument. There's no concept that this was a free choice, it was made while drunk. And then led to other things.

I also doubt that @4 wouldn't say the same thing if the genders were reversed. There's no patriarchy to this. Yes it's more wrong to be the person in the relationship than the cheating-enabler but neither is in a great moral spot. And yes there are degrees of immorality based on the quality and nature of the relationship. But wrong is wrong.

47

Well done, Ms Cute.

I'm close enough to the position of Mizz Liz - left alone, I'd rate pot FTWL. Ms Cute usually manages to keep her praise within the realm of personal gratitude, and doesn't get evangelistic when she recommends it, as Mr Savage does. Ms Fan sometimes seems to have the attitude that All The Cool Kids Do It, but that could just be my own perception due to her coming across as rather edgy.

Uh-oh: I have now gotten the idea that I should start using the assembled company to cast Daria.

48

@11 No one said "women aren't property so it's sexist to say you're an asshole for banging your friend's gf." You're taking two distinct points and combining them to create something to get angry about.

1) Women aren't property, so she isn't being stolen and she isn't someone's lady, she's a woman choosing to be with someone.

2) When it comes to monogamy, the person making the monogamous commitment is the one on the hook for living up to it, not the person they choose to cheat with.

I agree that point number 2 is hard to agree with in its entirety, especially when the third party is a friend (second-tier or otherwise), but all this ranting about social justice terminology is .. well ... mental. You sound like a crazy person.

49

Social justice terminology is a popular set of shibboleths today, and shitty people have a long history of using popular shibboleths to justify their actions. That happens whether it's social justice language, religious interpretations, or just plain bad faith legalese. So it's worth watching for, but the SJW angle is just a current spin on a timeless human behavior instead of a unique issue to the movement or our time.

As for the issue at hand (and by extension, the older letter)? Being a knowing and willing accessory to an affair is shitty, because you're knowingly and willingly contributing to hurting another person. However, trends define a person a lot better than one data point does. LW did a shitty thing. How I'd feel about them now would depend on if they continued to do shitty things and try to justify them, or if they've since cleaned up their act. I reserve a little skepticism for people who haven't misbehaved only because they haven't had the opportunity to, but that wouldn't be the case for either this or last week's LW.

50

This is a perfect illustration of the rule I've been pressing for a long time: don't ambiguously move in with a romantic partner. Ever. Clearly she's done with Boyfriend but it's much harder to end than if they lived in their own places. If it isn't going to Marriage or Permanence, keep your toothbrush there, but get your mail delivered separately.

51

When I was in my early 20s, I too had a relationship with a married person. We both knew we were breaking the rules. I rationalized it because her husband treated her like shit, but it was just that, a rationalization. I was, and I am, willing to except 50% of the blame. We were BOTH CPOSs, it doesn’t matter who the married one was, we both made the decision and did the deed (multiple, glorious times).

52

LW: Being a member of the nobility or banging a member of the nobility does not make what you're doing any less scuzzy. I'm assuming you're a knight because I'm not sure why else you'd be throwing out the word "lady" everywhere.

Further note: Sometimes we do shitty things in life and shitty things to other people, and while I can't endorse it, I will say that you should at least own it. We're human with needs and desires and if everyone was a pinnacle of purity, Dan would be out of a job. That's life. That's human. The only thing I hate is people trying to dress up what they're doing so they can come out smelling like roses. You're a piece of shit who actually categorizes people into "tiers" so you can somewhat justify what you've done. Own it.

53

Fubar, my impression is that the word cum never gets written by Dan. So to him it’s come sock.
This is not a reverse letter to the other one. It’s not a changed gender aha moment. The affair mentioned in the other letter was a decade old, in the past, done. We didn’t get told any details. The boss’ wife may have known or been very sick or they had a dadt agreement between them. The LW was losing his spleen over something his ex gf had done way before they got together. It was none of his business. It was before they met. If he is so sensitive to these stories having happened in his gfs lives, before him, then he needs to be up front from the beginning. ‘ I don’t date women who have ever been with a married man,’ would be his first rule of love.
This letter, though it’s old, was written for a present situation. We were given many of the facts, and can ascertain that both these, yes probably young people, are equally making choices here which could blow up, maybe even get violent. These two need to back the hell off from each other, she needs to see what a bigger mess she has created and if she’s really keen for the LW, then she should break up with her bf, find herself a single woman’s abode, give it some time, and then resume with LW.
Bet the passion wouldn’t have lasted that long. She’d have had to become serious about her bill paying.
I agree with Tim @50, don’t move in with your lovers, until maybe perhaps you believe it will be real. Even then, think again.
Donny has opened the confessional.
I had an affair with a married man when in my early twenties. He was my lecturer at uni too, and he pursued me with zeal. Learnt a lot thru those experiences. I don’t judge my younger self, because I see how karma played out.
I never did it again.

54

Daria Mr Venn? The queen of cartoons is the only Daria I know. I watched her with the kids. Cartoons are so subversive. I watch them with my grandson, and some of those artists are very cheeky.
Maybe another Daria I’m ignorant of.
I got thru Emma, had to skip a few pages. Can see why you like this one Nocute. Mr Knightly is so well drawn, though Emma is no Elizabeth Bennett. On my third book hunt, I found George Eliot. Not ready to face her yet. So I got back into Forsyte Saga. Easy reading for the end of my two weeks ‘by the sea.’

55

Lost @45: Yes, that's the dynamic with the jilted partner. They love their ex, but they have no feelings for the interloper, so they blame that person. That dynamic carries no gender baggage. You're right that there is gender baggage among the larger group who's doing the judging in either case: "bro code" when it's a man, "seductress" when it's a woman.

Venn @47: Wrong thread? Glad you think I'm cool. ;) I'd like to clarify that any hint of "all the cool kids do it" is highly tongue-in-cheek. In reality the majority of my cool friends don't partake, so it's more of a bond-enabling niche interest for me. I strongly prefer my lovers are pot smokers because I like sharing its (for me) sex-enhancing properties, and I prefer to be in the same frame of mind as the person(s) I'm having sex with. But my strategy is to turn pot smokers into lovers, not the other way round.

Tim @50: In a perfect world everyone would be able to afford to live alone, but young people seldom can. What young people do need is learning experiences, and better for her to learn that This Isn't The Guy before getting married than after.

Donny @51: Thank you for a rare example of taking responsibility for your decisions! And Lava @53, thanks for endorsing my point to Tim about young people learning to be better people partly through the mistakes they make, when they are more resilient and the stakes are lower.

56

LM @35 "Hey, does anyone else think the spellcaster bots target Dan's comment page because they pick up on the word "Lovecast"?"

Now that you mention it, that must be it. Good call. By the way, I hope I'm not the only one assiduously reporting the spam posts (and clicking those annoying pictures of traffic lights and zebra crossings).

57

Ms Fan - Yes, I had two windows opened and accidentally combined responses. In this thread, I was complimenting Ms Cute's reaction to the L word, which, I continue to maintain, belongs only at Wimbledon (along with the G word). In the other, I meant to agree on basics with Mizz Liz about how, left to myself, I wouldn't care, but the sermons of pot evangelists always turn me against them.

Ms Lava - Of course I meant that Daria. You would be Amanda.

58

BiDanFan@55, indeed, and the interloper-blaming and gender-stereotyping often goes double when it comes to family dynamics, I think. When my friend's 65yo dad left the family home to be with his younger mistress, my friend said, in all seriousness, that the other woman - the "manipulative money-grubbing slut" - must've put an actual love spell on him, as her dad couldn't possibly be attracted to someone so "dumb" and "vulgar". It was kinda shocking to hear this smart, well-educated, 30-something woman say something so outlandish. But of course she was hurting, and not thinking straight, and reaching for any explanation that would allow her to keep her relationships with both parents without questioning anything she knew about them.

59

FWIW, I would far prefer to be referred to as a lady than as a female.

60

Lady is just old fashioned, it's not offensive. It's like referring to men you date as "my gentleman friends"- something to roll your eyes at but not a big deal. I guess it's got negative connotations because so many of us were told to "act like a lady" when we were little girls- which usually meant "be quiet, use good manners, and deny your interest in boys". I guess it's like when we tell a boy to "act like a man" which usually means "don't show emotion, be tough, and deny your interest in boys". I think when people use old fashioned language like that, they think it's classy, like Cary Grant taking Audrey Hepburn for a night on the town. But in real life, it's usually hanging-with-my-bros jock types that talk like that, and classy Cary Grant sucked a lot of cock.

Seriously though, we all pick up on the language of people in our social groups and there's nothing wrong with girl gal lady woman chick etc when it's casual and socially appropriate (which it is here in this letter). Just stay away from the vulgar words unless your lover wants you to use them (like in the other letter). There's a certain use of "female" that indicates a guy's social group and views on women. If you aren't aware of that, then you probably aren't using it that way b/c it's intentional and not natural. This is irrelevant to this guy's letter.

61

As for dame or toots, film noir cosplay might be a thing. You'd not sound offensive, just comical. It's still pretty common for older Indians to talk about "chaps" and "fellows". Personally I think "daddy-o" should be mainstream. The one I always wondered about was "bird". What's that about? Flitting about in bright colors with legs exposed? Likely to fly away? It's a nicer animal slang than most. Why are cops called pigs? Not that I object. Bitch- I never really understood because dogs are among the good things in life. My guess is the origins have something to do with being used for fucking (heats). But lady- makes me think of smarmy lounge singers, playboy mansion hot tubs, old timey circus ringmasters - sort of an appeal to a pretension of class.

62

While it may be true a good friend would wait for the relationship to implode on its own before dating her, it's not like she promised to be with her boyfriend forever. Dating is by it's nature temporary. Ideally people should wait for relationships to fall apart on their own but sometimes it's hard to let go of someone you love even if you know it isn't working. That's why so many dating relationships have "overlaps." Dan's advice is good. If she cares about the letter writer, his move to halt things until she is free may give her the courage to do what she already knows she should do. If she's just having fun, well at least he will know and not upset his friends for nothing.

63

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