He Fucked a Coworker Who Lied to Him and to HR About Him—Should He Tell the Truth About Her?

Comments

105

BiDanFan @81: “If more male jerks write in than female jerks then that is hardly my fault.”

This is pure gold. A more pithy summary of un-self-aware bias could not be written.

Lolz to those who are all, “I don’t favor women necessarily. I just find typically female behaviors more sympathetic. But that’s not bias, give your head a shake.”

106

@103. Fichu. What's a good policy for an HR department to have? Maybe ... to act on verifiable stalking, harassment and threats, but not to get involved in a 'he says-she says' on issues in couples' private lives? Which, more or less, is what they did here. (I note, as nocute did, that the LW claimed his 'ex' presented a case to their HR department without factual evidence; but this seems perhaps a stretch, given how he's been obliged to open up about his ill-advised catfishing of her online dating profile).

@105. LateBloomer. If one believes that sexism conditions the genders' typical behavior, and that women are by and large more the victims of sexism than its beneficiaries, then why would one not have more sympathy, on average, with sexism's losers than its winners?

107

@99 bdf, griz, german, and xina to start with

108

@104 I've some special gold-plated tinfoil I can sell you, it's only $99.97 per square. email me SavageTruther@gmail.com

@106 Our definitions of sexism are warped to define women as the inherent losers however. For example, we look at the wage gap as evidence - but not the lifestyle gap. Somehow all those moms making $0/year stay in housing, clothing, and food - That money isn't counted as "earned" by (overwhelmingly) women. But it's counted as earned by those women when couples get divorced! Of course, those women are working and doing important work, just not for a stated wage.

But really, what should the ultimate measures of life quality be? Happiness? Healthiness? I would be surprised if women weren't scoring higher than men in basically every survey of personal satisfaction - how could a misogynist society be more appealing to the people it supposedly disadvantages than those who it privileges? The answer is, we've always known that women are advantaged, excepting a small cadre of ultra-powerful men who are at the very, very top; maybe the top 100,000 among 175 million men. For everyone else, it's clear who society values more highly.

109

@1 and @2, Maybe, but kinda hot. @20, great suggestion to make it hotter.

LW, you badly failed your readers with your description of having three fingers in her after her panties came off in your car. In which holes? I need to know.

Hmm. I may need to get laid. My judgment seems impaired.

110

Sporty @47,

"Of course you don't remember - you don't have integrity."

Fuck off.

111

@29 Try not to be so judgmental. There but for the grace of god go I and all that kind of thing.

112

@83 Excellent point. Now I really feel for the HR person dealing with assholes like this.

113

@108 Sporty "...I would be surprised if women weren't scoring higher than men in basically every survey of personal satisfaction"

You just pulled this directly out of your ass. Just bc you're unhappy doesn't mean women have higher personal satisfaction or better lives than men. I honestly don't know what your problem is. I'm not gonna pull the opposite claim out of my ass just bc my life isn't going great or bc I've been wronged by some of the men in my life. Sexism hurts everybody and you don't have to try to prove it doesn't hurt women to mean that it hurts men. Yet again this is off topic from the letter, though, where you made an apples to oranges comparison.

And as for your claim about how we should ignore the wage gap (and other indicators that women have lost out due to sexism) bc there is a made-up-by-you "lifestyle gap" that women benefit from, along with higher levels of "happiness", "healthiness" and "personal satisfaction", and bc stay at home moms get food, clothing and shelter, and after a divorce they get money...There is so much to say about each of these things that I don't even know where I would start and yet...This is getting into willfull ignorance territory, so I don't really think anything I could say would matter.

114

"they are such an asshole, but I can't stop texting/calling /catfishing/informing HR about them..."

There are "how can this work better" letters.. and there are "how do I win them back" letters..There are dtmfa letters... And there are "asshole dumped me and I'm upset"???? letters.. I guess the answer is, dump sooner. Try in future to base relationships on character as well as sex.

Then, either they are really not your style and it feels very right to leave.. Or they are your style and you want to be around them and if that's really the case then try to make the best of it.

Learn how to care about them, and teach them how to care about you in ways that feel good for everyone. Maybe UM is 21 too. He's still allowed to play full fledged sugar daddy without a relationship if he finds someone who wants the same things. Negotiation skills.. ID exactly what he wants from a partner.. Is he trying to win back the manmade rack or move on?

Most said to both, move on. But idk about these last two letter categories. If they are both inconsiderate then why not try to make the best they can out of their attraction to each other anyway? Only assholes can call their partner an asshole, everyone has a little asshole in them, everyone is attached to an asshole...

But if they hurt you too bad or they seem too dangerous for you, yeah there's other fish in the sea if you choose to tangle with sharks instead be risk aware at least. =condoms& regular testing min in these cases, maybe martial arts before further physical contact for FEARS.

HI LateBloomer waves madly

115

@107. Sportlandia. One of those people hasn't dated men for twenty years, and can hardly be looked to to provide a nuanced overview of what is generally reasonable, lovable, regrettable, overweening, exploitative etc. in that group. Her comments dwell on and spin out from her own experience, which (it would be hard to deny) was pretty bad. I don't actually recognise one of your other four names.

I think we can talk about sexism as things that happen, on average, in society, as tendencies or the tendential effects of structures and systems, without making it about people (either the male oppressors or the 'losers', the saps or female victims). The gender wage gap that you bring up is a good example. I wouldn't want to join your discussion of whether the wage gap is a gap in happiness or welfare; I would just think it an injustice, in that women want to earn more than they do (per hour). Let's not query at all couples' or families' childcare arrangements, which see mothers taking a career break to be kids' principal caregiver much more than fathers. The gender wage gap still obtains because 1) of the failure properly to harness women's talents and productive potential when they return to work, through alternative routes to senior positions, and 2) through the devaluation of part-time work (not opening responsible or 'decision-maker' posts up to jobshares). These failures arise, I'd maintain, through systemic sexism (partly the inertia of inherited systems, partly pervasive attitudes associating femininity with lower status and value).

I would go beyond this in making what was my main point, that sexism continues to condition how men and women behave in dating and intimate contexts.

116

Did sporty try to suggest that the gender wage gap is actually biased against women because women do a bunch of labor maintaining houses that doesn't get counted but also gets to have a house, food and stuff without working? What in the world? You are aware that more than half of all women work, and are generally responsible for the house work anyways. To say nothing of being expected to remember all the appointments, birthdays for both sides of the family, family events for both sides of the family, school things and so many other things. Yes there are exceptions, but they are rare.

Is it really shocking that more asshole men write in than women? When the overwhelming majority of sexual assault is committed by men, and the overwhelming majority of victims are women? That's really a surprise to you?

As for your made up statistics about male happiness, I'd be shocked if I was top 50% of men in the US, by looks or money. More likely bottom third of both. I am nerdy and somewhat socially awkward, was even more so as a teenager. I'm fairly happy and have had a successful sex life too. It sounds like you may have been hanging out in too many incel forums. The number one best way to ensure you will not be happy or sexually satisfied is to stay listening to incels and MRA's. I've watched people walk that path and it never, ever, ever goes well for them. Conversely, I have seen people put the haterade down, start listening to the things feminists and SJWs say to give advice and seem them become happy again.

117

Late @105: Glad you liked my tongue-in-cheek comment there. But it's true. Firstly, more letters are written by women than men anyway. So my bias is to show sympathy to the person who wrote the letter unless they give me a reason not to. Going back more than a month, roughly half of the men who wrote in gave me reasons not to, compared with really just the one woman who decided she had the right to determine what her boyfriend kept on his phone. Anyway, I've spent enough time reflecting on myself and my own words that I'm confident that any allegations that my bias is due to gender alone are spurious. And more than one commenter has backed me up on this, so my conscience is clear.

118

@116 did you read the words "Of course, those women are working and doing important work, just not for a stated wage" and interpret that as "get stuff without working"

Please Happy Gilmore yourself and come back after you finish 3rd grade.

119

Ms Fan - There is a general omission that we are dealing with a sample group reflecting bias in the selection. We don't see the whole bag of mail, and do well not to draw generalizations on the LWs themselves but on Mr Savage's taste in LWs. I'd probably agree with the assertion that Mr Savage publishes more letters from male jerks than from female jerks if I were to go back and keep score, but it could be a grave error to say that more male jerks than female jerks send him letters.

120

I submit that the letters asking about how to improve the relationship are the least jerky, whether it's how to get your partner to do what you need (common), or figure out a way you could meet their needs (win them back).

The ones that are looking to preserve or resuscitate a bad relationship (dtmfa and asshole dumped me) come off as jerks. I know there are no actual jerks, this is shorthand for seeing unhealthy or dangerous traits in people and product of our enemy/friend grouping instincts. I can't see these letters happening between people who can clearly state their needs and deal with no as an answer, and maybe most important take responsibility to leave a relationship before starting to describe your partner as a jerk/refusing to meet your needs..

Then there is betrayal when agreements are broken. Everyone knows you are only a good as your word right, so I don't think betrayals happen on purpose.. A lot of people are very unrealistic in what they think themselves capable of agreeing to, and what they expect of others.. More often they can't accept themselves or others, signing up for more than they are capable of or asking for more than another is capable of doing.. When agreements are not clear and enthusiastic the ground is ripe for betrayal.. Betrayals are just one of the bad feeling parts of life, like rejection, that is a signal that the journey is incomplete not necessarily a failure.

Gold Vennominon.