Louis CK covered brilliantly and hilariously a lot of your article in his stand up special "2017".
If these pro-lifers are so concerned about it, they should figure out a way to remove and keep an embryo alive outside of a person who doesn't want it inside them. Problem solved.
THANK you. I've tried to explain this to my fellow liberals over and over again with little success. And I get why: it's crystal clear that very few "pro-life" politicians give the slightest shit about abortion, beyond its power as a money-raising or vote-getting machine. But the people who go to marches and protest at clinics believe with all their hearts and souls that it's murder and that it's a matter of eternal damnation or not. Disagree with them all you want, but the point is, if you want to understand why they do what they do, and therefore have a hope of changing their minds even the tiniest bit, you have to accept that. Or continue to see Roe chipped away at until it's overturned completely.
They are "pro life" only as far it is against a woman's right to choose what happens to her own body.
I have seen zero evidence that any of these people have pushed a mandate of forced blood, kidney, partial liver, or bone marrow donations on living people.... I have seen zero evidence that any of these people have pushed mandated organ donation upon death with no opt out.
If as they state it is to "save the life of the child" they would also push for these measures, but they don't and never will.... and it is because their reasoning is utter fucking bull shit.
the "conversation" has been ongoing since before you were born.
bombing clinics, burning clinics, assassinating doctors, busing teens to DC to pro-life rallies for your stock photos, sermons every sunday condemning birth control & planned parenthood & providers, legislating tighter and tighter restrictions everywhere that Republics control states, that's all just part of the "conversation" that they're having with us libtards.
it's going to be outlawed again, or at least left to individual states; it's inevitable.
@3 -- While I agree with you that the reasoning is a hopeless muddle (pro-lifers also tend to support the death penalty, because they feel those people have forfeited their right to life by their actions, never mind that multiple people on death row have been proved innocent; they also don't support efforts to encourage adoption, fostering efforts to provide food and housing security for children, etc., any more than those evil pro-choicers), that doesn't make their blinkered belief that unborn children are innocents being murdered insincere.
The bigger issue isn't that they don't support forced transplants, it's that they don't support sex education in schools and easy access to contraception, which are the only things that have successfully reduced the abortion rate. That's the real madness, to my mind -- that they think they can legislate sexual behavior, despite centuries of evidence that this doesn't work.
Don't think for a minute that it can't happen here.
A wack-job group called "Parents and Students Protecting Minors" is already signature-gathering for Initiative 1004, the "Washington Parental Notice for Abortions Performed on Minors Initiative."
THEY AREN'T "PRO-LIFE": THEY ARE ANTI-ABORTION. GET IT RIGHT!
Wrong again, Herzog. We can only change (other people's) behavior by shaming them and telling them they're not worthwhile humans. Even though they can still vote, I'm sure all that negative attention will convince them to tell their friends that they ought to change their minds and surely will not change their mind back with something as sacred, and solitary, as voting.
I don't believe understanding anti-abortion people will change the vast majority of minds; from what I know of some of them, they are pretty hard wired in their belief. But I believe pro-choice advocates and the women's movement ought to get busy with organizing in the red states to protect choice, or fight to bring choice back ("freedom of choice riders") rather than preaching to the choir and "shouting your abortion" in the blue cities/blue states.
This isn't an issue that will be resolved by persuasion. Unless it persuades liberals to work harder at winning elections. The anti-abortion side isn't going to be persuaded to mellow out, no matter how much work you put into understanding them.
I don't give a damn what forced-birthers believe. So what if I'll burn in hell for "killing a baby". It's not their soul to save. They need to pay mind to their own lives and stay the hell out of everyone else's.
I know plenty of anti-abortion people. Like a LOT. Mostly women. And they are sweet and loving and will pray for you until the cows come home. I understand that they have the same visceral response to abortion that one might have to seeing someone set a puppy on fire.
I get it. I do. But some of them are also adept at waving all that away as well if the circumstances are right. So and so is a slut but MY niece/daughter/friend isn't so it's ok.
Often conservatives need a personal connection before they can extrapolate that justice should be for everyone. We saw it with Gay rights, and maybe enough dead women and ruined lives and THEIR nieces and daughters going to prison instead of Princeton will bring them around.
How shitty is that.
Everyone already knows that they literally believe it’s murder, but the actual reason they believe that is the important detail and it's right there in the polling data (also the anecdote in this post but data > anecdotes, always): the cross-tabs that most strongly distinguish pro-life from pro-choice is religion. Many of them also oppose birth control for this same, illogical but deeply held reason (pro: prevents abortion, con: makes jesus cry). Anti-choice women haven’t been “gaslit” by their husbands because their husbands don’t need to; most of them have been indoctrinated with a draconian system of beliefs that relegates them to second-tier status, and that has been instilled into them from birth. People can be willing accomplices in their own oppression.
We cannot reason our way out of a debate that begins and ends with religious beliefs that do not respond to logic, and right now most Americans have not lived under these conditions and have no idea what it’s like when women do not have control over their reproductive health. They’re like anti-vaxxers in that regard, and they need to learn the hard way. The good-ish news is that the younger generation is increasingly non-religious and supports abortion in high numbers, but that’s not going to save us in the near term. The sad truth is that some women and girls will have to suffer the consequences for everyone else to learn, and even then many of them will write it off as god's will.
One thing that doesn't seem to register with these people: they live in a pluralistic society. They share this country with many others who do not believe a giant guy who lives on a cloud deposits souls in wombs at the moment of conception. They are, plain and simple, trying to impose a theocracy on a secular society, ramming their religion down the throats of those who want nothing to do with it. Their aim is to extend the authority of the state into the interior of a person's body. They are advocating armed coercion as a means of imposing their malignant superstitions on others. There is no other way to describe these views other than: absolutely outrageous and repugnant. I don't think calm persuasion is called for here, or would in any way be effective. The motherfucking zealots should be met with counter zealotry. Head on.
Oh for fuck sake. 45 years into the abortion debate and you honestly think nobody on the left has ever thought why people are anti-abortion?
Good Christ. I don't know if it is your usual narcissism or just plain god damned ignorance — but maybe pick up a book on the history of the subject next time.
@5 I fully understand the bigger issue... I was making an argument that is equitable (the most similar as I can image).
The embryo/fetus uses the body of the pregnant person to stay alive... If it has that right (per these laws), why don't people who need blood or organs have the right to other peoples' bodies to keep them alive?
That would be because they have bodily autonomy. The exact same as a pregnant person!
I'm 65. I have been told since Roe was decided that I have to "UNDERSTAND" the pro-lifers. Give them tea and sympathy. Don't fight too hard because they will call you shrill. I don't care to understand anymore. They decided that they want to take down anyone who disagrees with them in any way possible. Maybe it's time we decide to be just as "understanding" as they have been for all these years.
I am 65, too - and a progressive Christian who happens to be pro-choice (and a lawyer). I always thought Roe v. Wade was a great opinion due to the trimester concept. To me, the "essence" of a human - what many would call a "soul" - doesn't form upon conception but much later in the pregnancy, well into the third trimester. The mother of my children is very sensitive, and she always felt that "moment" late in the pregnancy when an actual human was in there, and not just a bunch of her cells changing over time. My own beliefs are much more nuanced, but you can argue to even hard core pro-lifers that God doesn't waste a soul on a bunch of cells!
What @10 said.
They're not persuadable. The left's best bet is to persuade more liberals to vote. Even with the right's constant disenfranchisement and gerrymandering, if enough lazy and/or "purist" liberals would get off their asses and vote -- in every election -- we could beat them.
I thought you made a good point in comparing the abortion rights issue to marriage equality, in that people’s opinions about marriage equality were changed when they realized that many of their family members, friends, and coworkers were gays and lesbians, but you didn’t make the connection: that attitudes toward abortion rights will change as more women who have had abortions tell their families, friends, and coworkers.
@ Dave in Shoreline.
Miracles are divine, whatever that means. You're doing atheism wrong.
Yeah, maybe "shouting your abortion" was a bit too much.
@20 What a reasonable guy you are David!
Aside from the atheist business (and by the way atheists opposed to abortion have got to be about the tiniest sliver of the population this side of Jewish Nazis) is there any view that comes in the vacuum sealed package called 'Right-wing Ideology' to which you do not subscribe?
Let's be clear: 'criminal penalties' basically means stationing an armed agent of the state inside a person's uterus, whatever sort of kind and gentle spin you want to put on it. Armed state coercion is what you kind and gentle shits (tearing up about the 'miracle of life') are advocating. Seems kind of odd for a Freedom Lover for whom taxation is theft, no?
" No, I do not want to control women's bodies. No, I do not want women to be second class citizens."
Well. Except in all your actions, attitudes and voting for misogynist laws and lawmakers virtually guantees women are oppressed and second class citizens. You know. Other than that.
@24: That's where you're wrong. Personally knowing gay people helped change conservative minds about gay rights. Knowing someone who has had an abortion, someone you like, or love, or respect, makes it harder to condemn having an abortion.
@24 how could shout your abortion be too much when these fuckers want to force mothers to raise incest and rape babies hmmm.
@26 I think restricting any civil liberties should require extraordinary justification. I do not think being required to pay taxes when you live in a society from which you have benefited immensely from the sort of things funded by taxes equates to restricting civil liberties. It is pretty much clear as day that there is no more basic freedom than having sovereignty over your own body. Also clear as day that there is no practical difference between criminalizing those who get abortions and criminalizing those who provide them.
"Life begins at conception and ends at birth."
I fall into the category that abortion is a necessary evil. After 4 months though? I have no problem with restrictions except for rape, health of the mother or fetus.
The “shout your abortion’ crowd brought this upon themselves.
"Knowing someone who has had an abortion,"
Private conversations are different than wearing a t-short around town. That is simply distasteful.
My mother who is pro-life but also supports abortion rights (necessary evil), and has even donated to Planned Parenthood, finds the 'shout your abortion' crowd thoroughly abhorrent.
So you brought this on yourselves.
Fantastic piece again Katie. That said, mostly people want to fight and blame and hate. And they want to neither forget nor forgive wrongs of the past.
In short... I support your mission, and I lament its future failure.
@32 The fetus is part of the the 'body of another'. Clearly the body of that other stops outside the fetus.
One pretty obvious extraordinary justification for preventing people from physically harming others is that civilization would collapse if everyone was free to wreak any mayhem they wished. We have evidence civilization has not collapsed due to wide availability of abortion. To the contrary places where it is criminalized are usually conspicuously less civilized.
I was raised in a very Catholic family (but not crazy Catholic. More like Jesuit Catholic) so we were nominally "pro-life", but my parents had a reality-based view towards abortion. They were not - by any stretch of the imagination - fans of it, but they understood why some women end up opting for it.
I, on the other hand, have no moral qualms about it whatsoever. But I understand what drives the pro-life crowd.
The point at which a heartbeat can be detected is a completely arbitrary threshold that depends in part on the sensitivity of the technology used to detect it, and effectively bans abortions before most women even know they’re pregnant.
In years prior “fetal pain” was the threshold, something difficult to pin down but hard to argue against, though 20 weeks was the agreed upon time point. By then most women have had a chance to consider their options, which is, of course, a serious problem for the anti-choice brigade.
There is nothing special about a heartbeat detected in the embryonic phase when it has no nervous system and no discernibly human features. Anyone in 2019 claiming an embryonic heartbeat is the deciding point between legal and criminal bodily autonomy is a credulous chump who passively absorbs right-wing talking points like a sentient sponge. You may not be religious but you’re just as easily indoctrinated.
If they're short on Babies, maybe their God can require all True Believers never use contraceptives, have abortions or pull out. Oh, and make any male spewing of the Seed in unapproved vessels/destinations outlawed.
They can all live like that, if that's what they wish.
But, they can leave the Citizenry out of any bondage to their particulart god.
This is no Theocracy. Not till the Kochs and Addledsons and Murdochs and Trumpfys and Chief 'Justice' John Roberts SAY it is.
I wonder if Donald Trump ever paid for an abortion. That would come in handy.
@38 I was just going to add that bit as well. This "heartbeat" business is a total misnomer.
“What’s really happening at that point is that our ultrasound technology has gotten good enough to be able to detect electrical activity in a rudimentary group of cells...”
David in Shoreline- I am an atheist as well, so we have that in common.
Also, we are both men and there is an important implication from that.
Abortion for us is an abstraction, a second-hand issue that we will never have to confront directly.
We can construct castle-in-the-air philosophical arguments about it and never have our beliefs challenged.
Women don't have that option.
Now this is important because many people do not share your view of the sanctity of the pre-viability fetus.
So the question is- by what right do you force that human being into forced incubation of a child they do not want, to endure the risk and pain of childbirth?
If you really are an atheist then you should recognize the philosophical difficulty of your position- you are arguing for the existence of a universal value (the sanctity of pre-viability life) when clearly it is NOT a universal value.
"Human life has got to be the closest thing to a universal value we share? Isn't it?" --Shorline Dave
Seems human lives are cheapest when Republicans run things, such as for-Profit Healthcare, with 30 or 40 million uninsured (in the Richest country on the fucking Planet), and TOTAL Profit pharmaceuticals ... not to mention their seeming love of the Death Penalty. And third World death rates for American babies....
We can agree on the fact that respect for human life is a universal value. The threshold question for determining that is at question. You assert it is an easy call when in fact it is complicated and disputed where those thresholds should be set.
Also I find your position vis-a-vis prosecution of physicians yet amnesty for self-administered abortions to be incoherent.
If you criminalize the procedure then at best women who want an abortion must do so... themselves? On the black-market? In either case she would be doing so at great risk to her health, fertility and personal safety. That is only marginally less barbaric than also charging her with murder.
It's cute how Kay Kay thinks 60% support for same sex marriage means anything. Alabama can outlaw it. The case will proceed to SCOTUS and the previously ruling will be overruled by the current court composition.
As for Marlene, she's an idiot.
@David in Shoreline:
"Miracle that is human life"
Yeah, sorry, gotta agree with @44 here.
I'm guessing by most of your posts that you're conservative or at least heavily conservative leaning. Probably vote to put republican politicians in office. Yes?
Conservatives show very little value for human lives. Besides the stuff @44 mentions, there's even more stark, straightforward evidence. Wars, torture, solitary confinement and mass incarceration in general, police brutality, refusal to fund mental health treatment and facilities, homeless shelters, welfare and other public assistance, turning away immigrants... the poor, the hungry, the sick, the needy.
"Miracle of human life" indeed.
If conservatives want to force someone to submit their body against their will in order to save human life, why don't they also want to force the rest of society, against its will, to save human life? Why are they allowing billionaires to hoard their wealth when it could be used instead to save thousands... millions even... from the calamities of poverty?
When Dems control a state's legislative body & executive branch, they should pass a law requiring all pro-lifers to join & contribute to a legal entity called the pro-life Registry. This organization will offer women an alternative to abortion by paying all prenatal expenses and birthing costs in return for the mother giving up the baby for adoption. If no one wants to adopt the child, a pro-lifer will be legally required to adopt the child. This law would make pro-lifers put their money where their mouth is!
@47 -- Perhaps.
This from the New York Times: "Supreme Court Could Change Abortion Rights Without the Alabama Law"
"The conservative majority may prefer to chip away at abortion rights rather than overturn Roe v. Wade outright. It will have plenty of chances to do so."
@7 spunkbutter: They're usually not so much "Pro Life", but really "Pro Birth", quite often no matter what, even if the woman's life is in jeopardy. This category of extreme anti-abortionists isn't the least bit concerned about unborn fetuses (which can't possibly have the right to vote, either, notice). They hate women with a violent passion, and are cowards and bullies who won't stop their neofascist war on women until every female human being is afraid.
@11 sanguisuga and @12 Lissa: Agreed and seconded. And bless you both.
@28 Lissa: Rock on, Lissa!
@29 Spiffy D: Spot on and seconded. Bravo! By the way, I really like your new avatar image.
@31: Spoken like another clueless man who neither knows nor cares because the situation doesn't effect you physically or emotionally.
@37 Catalina Vel-DuRay: Bless you for being so consistently level-headed, growing up Catholic. Your parents did a good job.
@40: MaryAnne McCloud Trump should have have had an abortion. And Fred should have gotten neutered long before the two idiots ever got married. Just imagine what an infinitely better world this would be.
@42 kallipugos: Thank you and bless you. We women and girls need more men out there like you.
@43 Doofus in Shoreline: ....said another idiotic MAGA male. How do you manage to sleep at night after all your Trumpist brain damage?
@46 blip: Agreed and seconded. Excellent points made.
@49 Or you could just learn to put an aspirin between your legs and take some responsibility for the life you lead.
@51 Auntie Grizzled still can't spot satire like @31. Take your Geritol old lady, Folk Life is 2 more weeks away.
@52 Another Cowardly Trolling MAGA Dumbbell: Your Mom won't let you use the car because you're still at least four years away from getting a legal driver's license, right? At least you've still got Cocoa Puffs and SuperFriends on Channel 4 before juvee curfew.
@53 I'd say it would be tough to find a more egregious 'solution' from a 'central government' than abortion bans. Let's be straight here David, conservatives are mostly very selective when it comes to central government solutions they do and do not support. The vast majority of them are very much in favor of such central government solutions as kicking in doors and shooting people, building prisons and stocking them with people of color, meddling in what people are up to in their bedrooms and...telling women what they can and cannot do with their bodies. All 'central government solutions'. In fact, for the most part, beyond the right to be heavily armed it is difficult to determine which freedoms freedom loving conservatives are for. Oh, that's right, they are for the freedom to get fucked in the ass by rich people who got where they are for the most part not because they 'earned it' but because they have bought themselves a system that is heavily stacked in their favor.
WE are the government. When people say the government is incompetent, they're saying we as a nation are incompetent.
"The government certainly hasn't demonstrated an ability to manage the money better than these guys."
Sometimes yes and sometimes no. Governments--and corporations--are, as you said, made up of infallible humans. Some businesses succeed. Most fail. Some spectacularly fail (e.g., Enron, Bear Stearns, etc.). At least in government there are the checks and balances you mentioned to try to keep unfettered executive power at bay. There are less of those checks and balances in private business and as you said... some of those executives have done things that would make most people shudder. In any case, I disagree that government is always the problem and the free market is always the solution. I disagree that corporations are better at managing and budgeting than the government. Sometimes they are, often they are not.
Still doesn't disprove that conservatives are more likely than liberals to support things that promote human death and suffering rather than alleviate it.
Why, after the endless wars and lack of human compassion at home and abroad, would conservatives continue to support that ideology? Especially as they proclaim so loudly how human life is a miracle and is to be cherished and sanctified?
The inconsistencies are staggering.
what a great "conversation" this thread is, katie. so many minds were changed.
@47 is spot on.
Abortion is a straight person problem so straight liberals need to do the mind changing. Gay people had to do the heavy lifting to get the Obergefell ruling and the Lawrence ruling. Straight people voted against us on Prop 8. (White female democrats switching their vote in the final weeks of the campaign are what caused Prop 8 to pass.) While I wish straight liberals the best of luck in this fight, it's their problem.
I found using the example of enlightened attitudes in Ireland to be juvenile. It's not the religious hive-mind changing its objection to abortion; it was an abhorrence and outright rejection of scandals such as the existence of Roman Catholic Magdalene Laundries for centuries where "fallen women" and their "bastard children" were incarcerated and mistreated. It's no wonder that Irish citizens rejected the overwhelming former influence of the Church as they marked their ballots.
I'm also not convinced by the example of same-sex marriage (or just greated equality for LGBT people) in the U.S. For one thing, marriage aside, discrimination is still a fact of life depending on individual states. And I fear that these individual states will be chipping away any way they can to make queer people miserable.
I don't think these conservatives will ever change their minds until their states suffer - really suffer financially - from forced births due to lack of sex education and available birth control, not only to the marginalized (with soaring poor health outcomes). but also to their precious virginal-looking daughters who will need to be married off to their impregnators to preserve the hypocritical illusion of morality.
People oppose it because they hate women and want to force women to give birth. Birth control and legal abortion allowed women freedom men did not want them to have (and yes there are women out there who are anti-choice, too, I fully understand that). Forcing women to give birth when they get pregnant has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING TO DO WITH SUPPORTING LIFE. Let's get real. Our society allows people to live and die on the streets, throws food in the garbage in front of hungry kids to shame them when their parents' can't pay for their school lunches, allows tens of millions of people to go without health insurance and millions more to go bankrupt due to medical bills, won't pay living wages, poisons people and the planet because the only thing that matters is profit, and the list goes on and on and on. You cannot pretend you give a shit about children by banning abortion when you are 50th, that is DEAD FUCKING LAST, when it comes to education AND YOU REFUSE TO ALLOW A GIRL OR WOMAN WHO HAS BEEN RAPED AND/OR RAPED BY A RELATIVE to have an abortion. Forcing women to give birth is about one thing and one thing only DEEP SEATED HATRED OF WOMEN AND NOT WANTING THEM TO HAVE ANY CONTROL OR AUTONOMY OVER THEIR BODIES. Too many people in this country believe women's bodies belong to them and they have a right to police them and legislate them and comment on them and use them in any and all ways they choose. Any other reason for opposing abortion is 100% bullshit.
Men are responsible for ALL PREGNANCIES. The easiest way to prevent abortion is to prevent unwanted pregnancy and the easiest way to prevent unwanted pregnancy is to sterilize men. Period. Easy peasy problem solved. We live in an overpopulated world, with billions of people living in poverty and suffering, and on a planet with limited resources that we are destroying faster and faster every day. If anyone actually cared about LIFE we would be doing things to take care of the planet, take care of the people on this planet, take care of all other living things on this planet, and sure as shit not be breeding ANYMORE AT ALL.
People who oppose abortion fucking hate women so deeply and so darkly they will do anything to destroy them, literally. Fuck the pretense and fuck each and every single person opposed to women having choice and autonomy and freedom. This is some serious dark ages bullshit we are seeing right now and it needs to be stopped by any and all means necessary.
@60 Yeah all the suffering in the world is not going to change their minds. They are already shitholes.
They are lying. Their principles are not principled. A lot of the world is delusional about women's sexuality. That's not a cartoon villain.
@61 xina for the spot on WIN. Anyone trolling her comment can choke on it.
Here's hoping pro-birthers--particularly the violent ones incapable of reason--become the next to go in this current wave of RepubliKKKan-induced mass extinction.
The Warsaw Jews all thought they could reason with and win over their oppressors as well
I find it funny you say if you had it your way, everyone would be temporarily sterilized from puberty, but then complain abortion bans are about controlling women's bodies. You realize how hypocritical that is? How would forced sterilization be any less controlling?
Wow; so much Leftist Delusion and Hate-
if we could tap it for some useful purpose (other than fundraising for the shysters at SPLC...) we would have an inexhaustible renewable source of energy....
The unborn have the same hope.
Supporting the Life of the unborn and death penalty are totally consistent.
The death penalty is about how much do you value the life of the murders' victims. If you place a high value on their life justice demands that you extract a high price from their murderer. Like their life.
Speaking of the death penalty, the Left squeals about pro-life wanting to control women's bodies-so much shrill projecting.... how about this; let's go back to executing man who rape women.
Life begins at conception. True, a couple of weeks into it's life a baby isn't as cute or cuddly as a baby seal but it is alive, it is human. Failure to respect that reflects not a lack of humanity in the unborn but a lack of humanity in those who do not respect and value their lives.
Shame on you.
The whole "who put this baby inside of me? Get It Out!" bullcrap really sets eyes rolling.
Actually it is opposite;
it is not 'hey I was minding my own business and now there's a BayBee in me?!?'
it is, 'hey I was minding my own business and then you and some slack-jawed male made me and put me here- WTF is that about and what do you plan to do about this?'
Momma, exercising control over her body, made a baby in her belly.
No one is fooled.
“Men are responsible for ALL PREGNANCIES”
Apparently both men and Amazon wanted nothing to do with Xina.
I don't care if "life begins at conception" or not. That's a dumb argument for a country that routinely throws people away.
Abort early and abort often. When in doubt, cut it out. Think of the millions of dollars we could save if we had a realistic attitude towards abortion in this country. But the bible-addled nitwits have been sold a bill of goods about "the babies" for so long that we're now stuck with it. At least until religion finally dies in this country. And you have to admit - the clergy is going their best to kill it.
@69: The topic of abortion always makes you moist.
@59: If your're a human being it's your problem too, bubblehead.
If the state can force women to give birth to save a life, the state can force any of us to donate a kidney to save a life. The latter is safer, medically. Why don't pro-lifers advocate for forced living kidney donation?
If the state can force women to give birth to fetuses to "save lives", why can't they force children to become vegetarians to save the planet?
Raindrop dear, you flatter me. I dried up years ago.
And Roe isn't the only illegitimate ruling by a Leftist Court waiting to be overturned.
Moral Arc of the Universe and all.
@59: Do you want to cut off your own nose out of spite? The underpinning of Roe is the same used to argue for Lawrence V Kansas which struck down sodomy laws AND Obergefell v Hodges which granted gay marriage. So babycakes? THIS IS YOUR FUCKING PROBLEM TOO.
33: Are you honestly claiming "Shout your abortion" caused the right to do what they said they were going to do before "Shout your abortion" even existed? I think you got a causation problem here.
There's a stereotype floating around that there's women out there whom cavalierly have abortions after promiscuous sex without batting an eye.
I don't think so.
Perhaps a few, but I'm convinced that most women, and girls, feel the monumental decisions and gut wrenching, cosmic, and emotional blender they have to go through to abort and don't do it cavalierly.
It's an emotional and physically painful ordeal to go through -- probably much more than any male could understand or empathize over it.
76: Yay, tick tock to the end of US democracy ya fucking tool.
76: I also like how anyone left of Goldwater is a leftist to you. Yeah, John Dewey and John Rawls are basically the same thing as Karl Marx and Mao, right? Fucking yokel.
15: Herzog has a bad case of Undergraduitis where she thinks her 101 term papers represent some amazing break with the past. The less you know...
Nice article and I agree. As a firm pro-choicer, I think that our side too often pays short shrift to pro-lifer's beliefs.
I'm not sure if it would work or backfire, but I do believe that one avenue to shift opinions is to highlight the rape in cases of abortion/incest issue. Us pro-choicers tend to demonize and paint as extremists the pro-lifer's that would ban abortion even in cases of rape/incest.
But here's the thing: at least those "extremists" are logically consistent. If rape/incest babies begin their lives at conception, they're innocent victims and shouldn't be murdered just because their dad was a criminal.
Rape/incest babies are innocent victims of their circumstances; and the fact that pro-lifer's that would allow an abortion in cases of rape/incest means they are advocating for the murder of innocent lives
If you're going to be pro-life, you really need to be pro-life...not just when it's comfortable (and yes, this would extend to the death penalty as well). And if rape babies aren't real babies at conception, then no babies are.
So, perhaps if we could force this issue, we could get some people to switch sides of the aisle. Or maybe we would just be throwing gas on the extremists' fire.
Dictators in black robes setting policy is not democracy.
State Legislatures are where laws and policies should be made.
If the right to life diehards really wanted to end abortion they would support distribution of condoms, birth control and other contraceptives, and comprehensive sex education. They would support realistic programs that prevent kids from getting knocked up. But most of them don't support any of these things because they have a lot of assumptions about sex and sinfulness based on religious doctrine. A lot of these people believe a 15-year-old girl getting knocked up is Gods's plan, and a lot of them believe that women are baby factories. There is a whole lot of ideological reasoning tied up in their views of abortion. If it was all just about saving the unborn they would support programs and education that work to reduce unwanted pregnancies.
And the thing is, Alabama's law won't reduce abortion. It will drive it underground. Wealthy people will simply fly out of state for their secret abortions, while physicians are thrown in jail and the lives of poor people are ruined. People will die in botched, impromptu terminations. But when you realize that this is actually a punitive policy, and not a preventative one, it all makes sense. The goal is not to end abortion, but to stigmatize, punish and shame sinful behavior while reinforcing "gender norms." There's nothing like an unwanted pregnancy to detail an education or career. And with Roe v. Wade overturned they will take this national.
Like I said before, if they really wanted to end abortion they would empower women to control their reproductive destinies.
"Perhaps a few, but I'm convinced that most women, and girls, feel the monumental decisions and gut wrenching, cosmic, and emotional blender they have to go through to abort and don't do it cavalierly."
Hey, SHOUT YOUR ABORTION! Wear it on a t-shirt!
84: They're a branch of government designed to check the executive and legislative branches. They're not dictators, though partisan hacks on the right and left seem to think their role is that. The fact you describe their ruling as dictatorial reveals that you don't actually believe in our system of government, but rather believe that the simple majority should have carte blanche to do whatever they want.
Legislators pass laws then judges decide whether those laws can be reconciled with the constitution if they are challenged in the courts. It’s kind of the entire reason those 2 co-equal branches of government exist. This is how your government has always functioned. Try to keep up.
I think the best course of action is dressing up as characters from a 1985 Margaret Atwood book.
@76 You mean that arc that leads from here back to the dark ages?
Abortion and marriage are issues the people, thru their elected legislatures, should decide.
In both cases activists judges highjacked the process, took it out of the hands of the people, dictated what was to happen.
Fear not, it will be set right.
The People are having their say now.
@92: Honey, you don't care about democracy and you never have.
91: It's going to be decided by the Supreme Court, the same court you believe has usurped the masses. Or do you only believe liberal-majority courts are activists or dictators? Shit, why am I even asking?
@92 is trying way too hard. That's the first sign of a troll.
@95: Oh @92: has been trolling Slog under various names for at least as long as I've been here and that's 10 years. You can usually spot them by their use of the third person, a tendency to format their comments as if they were poems and a deep spiritual ugliness. They are not a happy person.
When it overturns Roe the court will give the issue back to the states and their legislatures to decide what their state laws will be.
Like it should be.
Thank you for your support, sweetie.
Wow. So much blather completely untethered to reality. Check out Gutmacher.org for actual facts on abortion. And the Turnaway study for what happens when women can’t get an abortion. And David in Shoreline, a special ‘fuck you’ to you. I’ve never had an abortion but I provide them. I never gave one to a woman who didn’t really want it. Save your morality for when you get a clue about life, like maybe when someone actually lets you get near her.
@86: Fringe memes and pics on social media are not indicative of aggregations of opinions and attitudes. We use polls and research to determine that.
@98 - My thoughts exactly. Doesn't matter much what we do or say on here, people have beliefs and those beliefs, like everything else about us humans, will grow and change over time. America is a country, not a church, I trust the universe to work things out the right way in the end.
The bastards have spent a generation trying to convince the simple minded that abortion = murder and it's worked. Once you buy into that nonsense the rest follows. People can be deprogrammed from this idiocy but it's going to take time.
This isn’t only a war on women. Women’s rights helped pave the road to accepting same sex relations and marriage, as well as trans rights. Conservatives believe that once women are put back in their place all other groups will be forced to follow suit.
The ever-guilty liberals are busy trying to convince and reaching out while the opposition is attacking science, harassing medical providers, appointing judges solely on their abortion views, and steam roll the judiciary system.
Time to wake nice fellows.
Fuck spiders, creepy little assholes the lot of 'em.
@104: You're not wrong. If Roe falls they'll go after Griswold v Connecticut, Lawrence v Kansas and Obergefell v Hodges. All those cases are based in the same interpretation of the right to privacy.
Oh, I get it now. All human life is precious. We must protect the fetuses.
But, hey kids, please join the military and go kill as many adults, children, and babies as possible in Conservatives' wars. Then they'll call you a hero.
I think a lot of this would be moot if it weren't for one simple fact: 60% of people over 50 vote. 30% of people under 30 vote.
Republicans don't care about understanding or converting the opposition. They just take power, consistently and strategically, every chance they get. They plan long term and they are not afraid to take action on issues that most people disagree with so long as their base rallies behind them. Democrats and liberals should learn to do the same. I don't give a shit if we ever change the hearts and minds of the Republican base. I care if we take power. The second does not require the first.
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