Comments

104

Ms Cute - Having been called both words, and in particular having been barred from a corporate career path because of one of them but not the other, I venture to suggest that the F-word and the P-word are not that closely related, except perhaps for those people who use the F-word with a clear intent to include bottom-shaming, which normally is more heavily implied in the P-word.

Your example of women's use of the P-word as exhortative is clear and sufficiently convincing, but you omit an examination of when women use the F-word, which, at least in my experience, is considerably more rare. Do you have any idea why? My opening guess would be that a woman's calling a man the F-word implies an admission of powerlessness. I'm not crazy about that guess, which feels too Green Knight, but I have about sixteen hours to go on one of my 72-hour sore throats, and am not really thinking all that well.

105

@103 It is unfortunate if our Dear Leader has polluted its use, but the usage of "hopefully" to mean "I hope" dates originally to the early 18th century and has been widespread since the 1930's. It is, in the words of M-W's usage note, "entirely standard."

106

@104: Mr. Ven, I think if a woman calls a man a fag or a faggot, it works the same way as if she calls him a pussy--it is meant to emasculate him. There's such a strong connection between homosexuality and femininity (or at least, femaleness), and both work because culturally we have such a narrow definition of what it takes to constitute manhood.

It's the age-old insult.

It sucks.

By the way, in response to something on a different comment thread: I don't watch the Bachelorette; I have heard of Luke P from my younger daughter.

107

Ms Cute - There is a distinct difference, in my experience. Your description seems to fit, "Don't be a f*," which differs from, "You f*!" There may also be a difference depending on whether the speaker does or doesn't know the accuracy of the accusation.

I do foresee dire things if Mr Savage succeeds in his mission to make homophobia a subset of misogyny. Gays who don't fit the V in my altered acronym LVBTQ+ could never recover from such a blow.

108

Ms Muse - I can live with that; just please don't support the murder of Whom.

109

@108 While I personally use "whom" whenever appropriate, I would lose my descriptivist card is I didn't say that language evolves, and if that's the direction it evolves in, too bad.

110

However, there will always be standard and nonstandard usage. I don't see "whom" vanishing from standard usage any time soon.

111

Vennomin - As i suspect you are a prescriptivist, I have a reading assignment for you. It is by the inimitable Kory Stamper, entitled "A Compromise: How to be a Reasonable Prescriptivist."
https://korystamper.wordpress.com/2013/08/23/a-compromise-how-to-be-a-reasonable-prescriptivist/

112

@Calliope: And did you read this conversation, linked to in the article you mentioned?

https://www.nytimes.com/roomfordebate/2012/09/27/which-language-and-grammar-rules-to-flout

Maybe we can all just meet in the middle...

113

Ms Muse - I would consider that I am mainly devoted to aesthetics, being, in one instance, particularly devoted to presently far more than to hopefully as being rather more elegantly particular. For another example, I used to avoid the Oxford Zed, until I saw the episode of Morse titled Ghost in the Machine, in which the vital clue that what appeared to be suicide-dressed-as-murder of an Oxford professor really was a murder after all was that the note, which eventually turned up on his computer, spelled certain words with an Ess. That sent me right back to using the Zed.

As you seem the sort of person who might know, I'll again bring up something I've been unable to find out, whether there is any particular provenance to the pronunciation of the name Irene with three syllables rather than two, to rhyme with Houdini instead of serene. I have had for some time the whole plot of a mystery totally worked out to revolve around that point if the truth fits.

114

@113 Sorry to disappoint, but I have never even heard of "Irene" being pronounced with three syllables. Although now I have "Good Night, Irene" stuck in my head. Alas, the late great Pete Seeger. I saw him in concert a couple of times when I was young. I live in the lower Hudson Valley, which has benefited significantly from the cleanup of the Hudson (though I still wouldn't drink the water), spurred by his Clearwater sloop and campaign. My middle school took a field trip to the Clearwater that I remember well. But I digress...

115

Ah, well - don't ask, don't get. I suppose you're a bit young to know the version of the Forsyte Saga which centered around the characters played by Damian Lewis and Gina McKee (hers was called a 3S Irene). I've heard it pop up in odd places about half a dozen others, most curiously in an audiobook read by Joan Hickson (when no other reader I've heard of that book did so) and a BBC radio play in which Wendy Craig used that pronunciation while playing an American woman.

116

I don’t think there was a woman. I think there was just a man hoping to sucker in a bi guy. And then when the bi guy got there, the woman would have “gone out for a coffee” and the man would get his dick sucked.


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